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Author Topic: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful  (Read 13237 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: May 04, 2009, 12:02:49 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.
Actually, George has established that torture is evil, which provides context for his argument that because the US engages in torture, the US must be evil. This is according to the logical progression A=B, B=C, A=C. You may disagree with him, but it is indeed a logical argument and not an ad hominem.

Except that it's not.  I'm the first to say these types of things are unpleasant, but let's get a bit of perspective.  For all the problems and moral failings of the US and Western nations that cooperated with its torture programme, the grass is a lot greener on this side of the fence.  All moralistic hyperbole aside, daily life in the US is not even comparable to Uzbekistan.  
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« Reply #136 on: May 04, 2009, 12:09:06 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.
Actually, George has established that torture is evil, which provides context for his argument that because the US engages in torture, the US must be evil. This is according to the logical progression A=B, B=C, A=C. You may disagree with him, but it is indeed a logical argument and not an ad hominem.

So as long as we follow this "logic" we can say what we want? Good to know the proper way to call people names.

Would the following then be okay (hypothetically of course Wink)?  Pacifists are illogical fools.  Australians engage in pacifism.  Australians are illogical fools.

While you may disagree, according to your guidelines, I am clear that this wouldn't qualify as an ad hominem attack?

Of course, just like not all US citizens engage in torture, not all Australians engage in Pacifism. But I would wager that there are more Australians who engage in Pacifism than US citizens who engage in torture.  So from that I guess we could say that Australia has more illogical fools than the US has evil torturers!

It's all so logical. Roll Eyes

 Wink
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« Reply #137 on: May 04, 2009, 12:11:39 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.

Our country being as diverse as it is, to say that it is wholly evil, is folly to me. while I agree some aspects of governmental policie tend towards evil, our country as a whole is not evil per se, based on the fact that so many disagree with these policies, and desire to rid us of them. While others fight tooth and nail to further them. denying the U.S. is evil does not make it so.  Admitting it tends to use evil to further it's agendas, seemingly more and more, would be a more accurate statement in my eyes.


George
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« Reply #138 on: May 04, 2009, 12:12:00 PM »

Abortion is evil; therefore, every country that practices abortion is evil.
Not the same thing, actually. Torture is an act of the government, whereas abortion is an act of a private citizen, allowed by the government. The government is no more responsible for abortion than the people are for torture.

Then you might want to add the word Government to your equation. In the spirit of keeping everything logical. Wink
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 12:12:34 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: May 04, 2009, 12:15:22 PM »

Oz, let me ask you a question. When I was doing my basic in Great Lakes, was it torture to force the entire company to exercise until one or more of the recruits either passed out or threw up?

When I did my basic in Great Lakes (1999), we successfully got one of our instructors dismissed for making one guy exercise until he threw up. You all should have talked to the officer in the building and the base inspector general.
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« Reply #140 on: May 04, 2009, 01:15:12 PM »

"Abba Anthony said that the time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will rise up against him, saying: 'you are mad, because you are not like us'."
- Sayings of the Desert Fathers,
Amen.
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« Reply #141 on: May 04, 2009, 02:27:08 PM »

So, basically this question is really, "Is psychological duress torture"? Absent permanent harm, no, it is not.

How do you decide what is permanent harm in another individual? Ask them?  How do you decide what constitutes permanent harm? How is temporary harm any different from permanent harm?
Again, I personally feel this is a Flawed viewpoint, expressed from a secular point of view not a Christian one.

While a Secular Government may feel the need to use these techniques to protect the innocent, That dosen't make it right, condemning it is all i can do.

George
George, There are lots of relative moral decisions in this life. Permanent harm to me including having 3000 fellow citizens, including among them 65 Orthodox Christians, pulverized to dust on 9-11-2001.
To save even ONE of them, there is no telling how many caterpillars or other enhanced interrogation techniques I would use. I would do it for them, I'd do it for you, I'd even do it for Bogo, even if the sentiment or favor would not be returned; and gladly take my chances in the hereafter.
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« Reply #142 on: May 04, 2009, 03:17:42 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.

Our country being as diverse as it is, to say that it is wholly evil, is folly to me. while I agree some aspects of governmental policie tend towards evil, our country as a whole is not evil per se, based on the fact that so many disagree with these policies, and desire to rid us of them. While others fight tooth and nail to further them. denying the U.S. is evil does not make it so.  Admitting it tends to use evil to further it's agendas, seemingly more and more, would be a more accurate statement in my eyes.


George


To sit in the face of evil and not only do nothing, but actually encourage it does not make a Nation righteous, it is a collective sin.
"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." (Proverbs 14:34)
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« Reply #143 on: May 04, 2009, 03:29:51 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.

Our country being as diverse as it is, to say that it is wholly evil, is folly to me. while I agree some aspects of governmental policie tend towards evil, our country as a whole is not evil per se, based on the fact that so many disagree with these policies, and desire to rid us of them. While others fight tooth and nail to further them. denying the U.S. is evil does not make it so.  Admitting it tends to use evil to further it's agendas, seemingly more and more, would be a more accurate statement in my eyes.


George

Yes, with the new leadership it is making more and more evil choices but no less evil than the choices made by other liberal nations through out the world.
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« Reply #144 on: May 04, 2009, 03:30:40 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.

Our country being as diverse as it is, to say that it is wholly evil, is folly to me. while I agree some aspects of governmental policie tend towards evil, our country as a whole is not evil per se, based on the fact that so many disagree with these policies, and desire to rid us of them. While others fight tooth and nail to further them. denying the U.S. is evil does not make it so.  Admitting it tends to use evil to further it's agendas, seemingly more and more, would be a more accurate statement in my eyes.


George


To sit in the face of evil and not only do nothing, but actually encourage it does not make a Nation righteous, it is a collective sin.
"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." (Proverbs 14:34)

Exactly, which is why we should be opposing the evils committed by all liberal nations throughout the world, including your own.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 03:30:56 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2009, 03:35:55 PM »

Exactly, which is why we should be opposing the evils committed by all liberal nations throughout the world, including your own.
I do oppose the evils of my Nation Papist. In fact, I have been arrested for doing so.
Being "liberal" has nothing to do with it. "Liberal" as you guys in the US understand it does not carry the same political meaning outside of the US (as I have said many times before). "Liberal" is a US political term, so lets keep US politics out of this thread.  Smiley
This is about Christian morality in regards to torture, not "liberals".
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 03:37:18 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2009, 03:42:52 PM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.

Our country being as diverse as it is, to say that it is wholly evil, is folly to me. while I agree some aspects of governmental policie tend towards evil, our country as a whole is not evil per se, based on the fact that so many disagree with these policies, and desire to rid us of them. While others fight tooth and nail to further them. denying the U.S. is evil does not make it so.  Admitting it tends to use evil to further it's agendas, seemingly more and more, would be a more accurate statement in my eyes.


George


To sit in the face of evil and not only do nothing, but actually encourage it does not make a Nation righteous, it is a collective sin.
"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." (Proverbs 14:34)


So you judge a nation collectively, then pontificate whenever you can on how a christian should "judge not lest ye be judged." Interesting.

So which is greater, the sin of Americans "doing nothing" as you put it, or the sin of someone proclaiming judgement on people they don't even know?
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« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2009, 03:50:29 PM »

So which is greater, the sin of Americans "doing nothing" as you put it, or the sin of someone proclaiming judgement on people they don't even know?
Oh please!
If thats the case, then you are "passing judgement" every time you say the Lord's Prayer:
"Forgive us our trespasses...." How dare you presume anyone else has trespasses?
The reality, livefreeordie, is you have your convictions and I have mine, and mine are that torture is an evil practice which must be stopped. I also hold that the madatory detention of asylum seekers in my own country is evil and must be stopped, and I was arrested for helping asylum seekers escape detention. So I'm also prepared to be ridiculed and condemned for my beliefs about torture too.
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« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2009, 03:53:02 PM »

Exactly, which is why we should be opposing the evils committed by all liberal nations throughout the world, including your own.
I do oppose the evils of my Nation Papist. In fact, I have been arrested for doing so.
Being "liberal" has nothing to do with it. "Liberal" as you guys in the US understand it does not carry the same political meaning outside of the US (as I have said many times before). "Liberal" is a US political term, so lets keep US politics out of this thread.  Smiley
This is about Christian morality in regards to torture, not "liberals".
This has nothing to do with politics. I am using the term "liberal" as I understand it from my national background.
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« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2009, 03:58:47 PM »

So which is greater, the sin of Americans "doing nothing" as you put it, or the sin of someone proclaiming judgement on people they don't even know?
Oh please!
If thats the case, then you are "passing judgement" every time you say the Lord's Prayer:
"Forgive us our trespasses...." How dare you presume anyone else has trespasses?
The reality, livefreeordie, is you have your convictions and I have mine, and mine are that torture is an evil practice which must be stopped. I also hold that the madatory detention of asylum seekers in my own country is evil and must be stopped, and I was arrested for helping asylum seekers escape detention. So I'm also prepared to be ridiculed and condemned for my beliefs about torture too.

Oh please back at you! Wink  I'm sorry your apparent emotion and anger is clouding the issue, IMO. Realizing we all have tresspasses is a little different than calling people subhuman and all the other colorful, damning adjectives you have been throwing around.  If this was simply a matter of, you don't agree with waterboarding and I do, this thread wouldn't have gotten this far.

I have no beef with someone who thinks waterboarding is torture and is against it.  I would disagree, but I have lots of friend who are vehemently against waterboarding and never once when discussing it has it gotten ugly.  Of course, they can end the discussion with, "Obama won" and a smile. But when someone starts using this belief to pass judgement and spout hateful rhetoric it becomes a different issue. What's funny is that this is exactly the kind of namecalling and judging liberals accuse evangelical christians of.  How ironic.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:01:55 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2009, 04:40:26 PM »

In the end, I believe we've essentially proven the Op's original point and the title of the thread:

Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful.

OzGeorge has his opinions and he's entitled to them, we all have our opinions and we're all entitled to them, My opinion differs from OzGeorge's, but at the same time, he's seen things from a different perspective. So, the US may be evil and OzGeorge may be way out there and have no clue what he's talking about but at the end of the day what we do in the US is what we do in the US. What George and the Aussies do in Australia is what they do in Australia. We really don't need to start attacking each other as visciously as we have been. Now I'll step aside and accept the ridicule from both sides.

-Nick
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« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2009, 04:54:21 PM »

So, basically this question is really, "Is psychological duress torture"? Absent permanent harm, no, it is not.

How do you decide what is permanent harm in another individual? Ask them?  How do you decide what constitutes permanent harm? How is temporary harm any different from permanent harm?
Again, I personally feel this is a Flawed viewpoint, expressed from a secular point of view not a Christian one.

While a Secular Government may feel the need to use these techniques to protect the innocent, That dosen't make it right, condemning it is all i can do.

George
George, There are lots of relative moral decisions in this life. Permanent harm to me including having 3000 fellow citizens, including among them 65 Orthodox Christians, pulverized to dust on 9-11-2001.
To save even ONE of them, there is no telling how many caterpillars or other enhanced interrogation techniques I would use. I would do it for them, I'd do it for you, I'd even do it for Bogo, even if the sentiment or favor would not be returned; and gladly take my chances in the hereafter.

Thats all need be said, you recognize it's wrong, and understand the consequence, Good enough. That does not mean that anyone not willing is wrong, just less willing.

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.

Our country being as diverse as it is, to say that it is wholly evil, is folly to me. while I agree some aspects of governmental policie tend towards evil, our country as a whole is not evil per se, based on the fact that so many disagree with these policies, and desire to rid us of them. While others fight tooth and nail to further them. denying the U.S. is evil does not make it so.  Admitting it tends to use evil to further it's agendas, seemingly more and more, would be a more accurate statement in my eyes.


George


To sit in the face of evil and not only do nothing, but actually encourage it does not make a Nation righteous, it is a collective sin.
"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." (Proverbs 14:34)


And what do you constitute as nothing? Voting against policies that allow these atrocities is nothing? Speaking out against them is not nothing, especially where i live, they love to persecute you here if you disagree with them, or point out the wrong they do. I'm not afraid of them and I'll stand up to them anytime. does that mean I sit by and allow it to happen? or encourage it?
There are lots of people here who do the same, so to say the U.S. as a whole, is Evil, is hogwash, to put it not so eloquently
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« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2009, 06:38:45 PM »

Oh please back at you! Wink  
Oh please! back at you times a thousand. Jinx! No-comebacks!

I'm sorry your apparent emotion and anger is clouding the issue, IMO.
Emotions are a bad thing, aren't they? We must supress them at all costs otherwise, torturers might feel pity for their victims. And then where will we be? Smiley

If this was simply a matter of, you don't agree with waterboarding and I do, this thread wouldn't have gotten this far.I have no beef with someone who thinks waterboarding is torture and is against it
But if I think that waterboarding is torture and evil and you do not think it is and go ahead and inflict it on someone or support those who inflict waterboarding on others (which is in fact what you and others have done on this thread) should I remain silent? Would you remain silent in the face of something you held to be intrinsically evil being supported on this forum? I'll shut up if you guys shut up about your perceived "right" to inflict waterboarding on people..

. "Obama won" and a smile.
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« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 06:39:31 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2009, 06:51:30 PM »

In the end, I believe we've essentially proven the Op's original point and the title of the thread:

Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful.

OzGeorge has his opinions and he's entitled to them, we all have our opinions and we're all entitled to them, My opinion differs from OzGeorge's, but at the same time, he's seen things from a different perspective. So, the US may be evil and OzGeorge may be way out there and have no clue what he's talking about but at the end of the day what we do in the US is what we do in the US. What George and the Aussies do in Australia is what they do in Australia. We really don't need to start attacking each other as visciously as we have been. Now I'll step aside and accept the ridicule from both sides.

I have no issue with ozGeorge holding the political views that he holds.  That's the wonderful thing about Western society.  Throughout history the Church has backed violence, and all that it entails, when it has been politically expedient to do so.  Inept and cruel rulers (and I'm not being anachronistic, as such was the contemporary view of Russia by Europeans) have been canonised.  Ask some of our Coptic posters if the sainthood of Justinian is a stumbling block to ecumenical relations with the Chalcedonian churches.  The record of the Church on war, violence and the like is ambiguous at best.  My objection is to George acting like a typical American and pretending that his political views are religious views and then using religious language to condemn anyone who disagrees with his political views.    
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« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2009, 06:57:44 PM »

 The record of the Church on war, violence and the like is ambiguous at best. My objection is to George acting like a typical American and pretending that his political views are religious views and then using religious language to condemn anyone who disagrees with his political views.   
If you can quote any Canon or Father of the Orthodox Church which supports the use of torture, I will forever shut up about it. But the Orthodox Church I grew up in not only lacks any canons in favour of the use of violence, it has canons clearly against the use of violence (the very reason St. Nicholas was deposed).   
Politics has nothing to do with it, except, apparently in the case of those who support the use of torture, because they do so, not from a theological point of view, but a political one.
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« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2009, 07:00:31 PM »

Would you remain silent in the face of something you held to be intrinsically evil being supported on this forum? I'll shut up if you guys shut up about your perceived "right" to inflict waterboarding on people..

Actually, wouldn't a better solution be to just not call each other names and discuss the issue civilly without condemning entire countries. When I see people start calling the US subhuman and evil I can't help but remember the pictures on 9/11 of entire cities cheering the carnage.  And why wouldn't they, they've been led to believe we are the evil satan, worthy of destruction.
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« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2009, 07:07:20 PM »

 The record of the Church on war, violence and the like is ambiguous at best. My objection is to George acting like a typical American and pretending that his political views are religious views and then using religious language to condemn anyone who disagrees with his political views.   
If you can quote any Canon or Father of the Orthodox Church which supports the use of torture, I will forever shut up about it. But the Orthodox Church I grew up in not only lacks any canons in favour of the use of violence, it has canons clearly against the use of violence (the very reason St. Nicholas was deposed).   
Politics has nothing to do with it, except, apparently in the case of those who support the use of torture, because they do so, not from a theological point of view, but a political one.
Sorry to interrupt. This is true.  Smiley And this is why saint Athanasius the Great had damned some ruler of Libye, of course, among many more...
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« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2009, 07:12:46 PM »

When I see people start calling the US subhuman and evil I can't help but remember the pictures on 9/11 of entire cities cheering the carnage.  And why wouldn't they, they've been led to believe we are the evil satan, worthy of destruction.

Violence cannot end violence. It becomes a spiral which gets bigger and bigger- attack, revenge, attack, revenge attack, revenge.......
I guess we can see it in this thread also, and that's my fault. I'm sorry. I don't think the US is evil, I take that back. But I do think that waterboarding is an evil practice which must be stopped along with all forms of physical and mental torture.

What ends violence is not more violence is an acknowledgement of it- "Yes, I did wrong, I'm sorry, please forgive me." But if somebody supports the infliction of torture and then denies that is torture and insists on their "right" to inflict it, what should we expect? Should we expect our victims to accept our "right" to torture them? And if they retaliate, are they evil, and we are not evil?
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« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2009, 07:24:15 PM »

To save even ONE of them, there is no telling how many caterpillars or other enhanced interrogation techniques I would use. I would do it for them, I'd do it for you, I'd even do it for Bogo, even if the sentiment or favor would not be returned; and gladly take my chances in the hereafter.

Why do we need euphemisms such as "enhanced interrogation techniques"?
You are free do do as you wish, I can't stop you, but I absolutely forbid you to torture anyone in my name. And if you ever do, may they win a Martyr's crown and may I be thrown into Hell forever for being the cause of their torment.
Mankind, fallen as it is, will always be at war until Christ returns, but if we must have war, can't we who claim to be Christians at least show some chivalry? Are our soldiers noble warriors like St. George or torturers like his executioners?

               
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« Reply #159 on: May 04, 2009, 07:35:03 PM »

If you can quote any Canon or Father of the Orthodox Church which supports the use of torture, I will forever shut up about it. But the Orthodox Church I grew up in not only lacks any canons in favour of the use of violence, it has canons clearly against the use of violence (the very reason St. Nicholas was deposed).  Politics has nothing to do with it, except, apparently in the case of those who support the use of torture, because they do so, not from a theological point of view, but a political one.

What I have been saying is that it is ambiguous - there has been the monastic ideal of nonviolence, but there has also been the pragmatic side of the Church.  For example you're not going to find any real condemnation of the 1905 Russo-Japanese War.  As you well know the Annunciation is very much linked to Independence Day in popular piety - and the Porte didn't one day say "Oh, yes!  Independence for Greece is a dandy idea!"  Then there are those pesky Scriptures filled with gory accounts of Yahweh ordering that the women and children be killed too.  

While I respect that your religious views have formed your political views on this matter, you can hardly say that you hold the Orthodox position on the matter.  I'd even go so far as to say that my religious views also influence my political views on the matter - that if torture is used it ought to be only for a very clear objective (i.e a very high likelihood that actionable intelligence will be obtained) and there absolutely has to be independent oversight.  In case that wasn't clear enough, I don't think that most of the cases carried out under the Bush administration fit those criteria.    
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« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2009, 07:38:38 PM »

What I have been saying is that it is ambiguous - there has been the monastic ideal of nonviolence, but there has also been the pragmatic side of the Church.  For example you're not going to find any real condemnation of the 1905 Russo-Japanese War.  As you well know the Annunciation is very much linked to Independence Day in popular piety - and the Porte didn't one day say "Oh, yes!  Independence for Greece is a dandy idea!"  Then there are those pesky Scriptures filled with gory accounts of Yahweh ordering that the women and children be killed too.  

What does war have to do with this Nektarios?
I repeat:
Mankind, fallen as it is, will always be at war until Christ returns, but if we must have war, can't we who claim to be Christians at least show some chivalry? Are our soldiers noble warriors like St. George or torturers like his executioners?

               
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« Reply #161 on: May 04, 2009, 07:39:09 PM »

When I see people start calling the US subhuman and evil I can't help but remember the pictures on 9/11 of entire cities cheering the carnage.  And why wouldn't they, they've been led to believe we are the evil satan, worthy of destruction.

Violence cannot end violence. It becomes a spiral which gets bigger and bigger- attack, revenge, attack, revenge attack, revenge.......
I guess we can see it in this thread also, and that's my fault. I'm sorry. I don't think the US is evil, I take that back. But I do think that waterboarding is an evil practice which must be stopped along with all forms of physical and mental torture.

What ends violence is not more violence is an acknowledgement of it- "Yes, I did wrong, I'm sorry, please forgive me." But if somebody supports the infliction of torture and then denies that is torture and insists on their "right" to inflict it, what should we expect? Should we expect our victims to accept our "right" to torture them? And if they retaliate, are they evil, and we are not evil?

Since no one had even heard of waterboarding when 9/11 occurred, what exactly do you see as the evil the US was committing at the time that we could have stopped doing and asked forgiveness for and thus averted the attack on the towers?  And do think that dropping our arms and asking Islamic terrorists to forgive us for (fill in the blank) will result in peace?
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« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2009, 07:41:55 PM »

Since no one had even heard of waterboarding when 9/11 occurred, what exactly do you see as the evil the US was committing at the time that we could have stopped doing and asked forgiveness for and thus averted the attack on the towers?  And do think that dropping our arms and asking Islamic terrorists to forgive us for (fill in the blank) will result in peace?
What has war got to do with this livefreeordie?
I repeat:
Mankind, fallen as it is, will always be at war until Christ returns, but if we must have war, can't we who claim to be Christians at least show some chivalry? Are our soldiers noble warriors like St. George or torturers like his executioners?

               
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« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2009, 07:42:48 PM »

Mankind, fallen as it is, will always be at war until Christ returns, but if we must have war, can't we who claim to be Christians at least show some chivalry? Are our soldiers noble warriors like St. George or torturers like his executioners?

So rather than all the energy you have put into condemning the evil United States, which has a negligible Orthodox population, I have seen relatively little protest about Serbia, Russia, Georgia and Armenia who have all entered into conflicts over the past two decades that have left many, many civilians dead and international organisations have condemned for human rights abuses.  And you wonder why I say your position is political.  
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« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2009, 07:44:30 PM »

So rather than all the energy you have put into condemning the evil United States,
You must have missed this in your political excitement:
I'm sorry. I don't think the US is evil, I take that back. But I do think that waterboarding is an evil practice which must be stopped along with all forms of physical and mental torture.
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« Reply #165 on: May 04, 2009, 07:49:45 PM »

Since no one had even heard of waterboarding when 9/11 occurred, what exactly do you see as the evil the US was committing at the time that we could have stopped doing and asked forgiveness for and thus averted the attack on the towers?  And do think that dropping our arms and asking Islamic terrorists to forgive us for (fill in the blank) will result in peace?
What has war got to do with this livefreeordie?
I repeat:


I was addressing your point that violence breeds more violence and asking your opinion if we addressed terrorists and those whom would harm us by asking for forgiveness and not resorting to violence would it result in peace. 
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« Reply #166 on: May 04, 2009, 07:51:59 PM »

So rather than all the energy you have put into condemning the evil United States,
You must have missed this in your political excitement:
I'm sorry. I don't think the US is evil, I take that back. But I do think that waterboarding is an evil practice which must be stopped along with all forms of physical and mental torture.

Which makes my point that despite not having an Orthodox population of any significance and despite still having a relatively good overall human rights record, you still choose to focus on the US rather than Orthodox dominated countries with abysmal human rights records.  By the time you get here this summer you'll be entirely indistinguishable from an American.  Kiss
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« Reply #167 on: May 04, 2009, 08:02:52 PM »

I was just outside singing Bob Marley's "Three Little Birds" to my kids and they went from banshee nuts to happy and calm listening to daddy sing and strum.  Made me think that maybe I should turn a new leaf and advocate meeting terrorists by asking for forgiveness and singing "don't worry, about a thing, cause every little thing, gonna be alright" or some similar happy song.

And then I realized they would probably have cut my head off before I could get to the part in the verse I love, "pitched by my doorstep" and quickly changed my mind.

FYI, for anyone who has ever thought about playing guitar, I would recommend learning to play "Three Little Birds".  Just three chords and a rhythm that are easy to learn and play, easy to remember lyrics, everyone always sings along.
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« Reply #168 on: May 04, 2009, 08:04:54 PM »

What was that you were saying about discussing the topic civilly?.......
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« Reply #169 on: May 04, 2009, 08:07:23 PM »

What was that you were saying about discussing the topic civilly?.......

It might have been a bad joke, don't think it treaded very close to being uncivil. Wink

And I was in fact outside singing Three Little Birds to my kids which I do every night about this time, and which put me in a happy place.  Sorry if I was uncivil.
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« Reply #170 on: May 04, 2009, 08:09:42 PM »

By the time you get here this summer you'll be entirely indistinguishable from an American.  
I am already indistinguishable from an American, and so are people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and so are people everywhere. We are all one race- the human race. We are all blood brothers. We are all one family. And like siblings in all families, we sometimes fight one another, but we are still one family.
The "distinction" is artificial.
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« Reply #171 on: May 04, 2009, 08:10:22 PM »

I was just outside singing Bob Marley's "Three Little Birds" to my kids and they went from banshee nuts to happy and calm listening to daddy sing and strum.  Made me think that maybe I should turn a new leaf and advocate meeting terrorists by asking for forgiveness and singing "don't worry, about a thing, cause every little thing, gonna be alright" or some similar happy song.

And then I realized they would probably have cut my head off before I could get to the part in the verse I love, "pitched by my doorstep" and quickly changed my mind.

FYI, for anyone who has ever thought about playing guitar, I would recommend learning to play "Three Little Birds".  Just three chords and a rhythm that are easy to learn and play, easy to remember lyrics, everyone always sings along.

I agree with George on this one.  In the long term, soft power is far cheaper and a far more effective way of obtaining national security than ad hoc military responses.  Even Robert Gates has said as much - dealing with the root causes of war, investing more in diplomacy, international development and the like will do far more to prevent terrorism a generation from now than a military-only strategy.      
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« Reply #172 on: May 04, 2009, 08:12:02 PM »

By the time you get here this summer you'll be entirely indistinguishable from an American.  
I am already indistinguishable from an American, and so are people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and so are people everywhere. We are all one race- the human race. We are all blood brothers. We are all one family. And like siblings in all families, we sometimes fight one another, but we are still one family.
The "distinction" is artificial.

I knew it.  You'll be driving cross country in an F150 with a gunrack and a confederate flag.  I bet you'll have cool mudflaps too. 
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« Reply #173 on: May 04, 2009, 08:14:19 PM »

I knew it.  You'll be driving cross country in an F150 with a gunrack and a confederate flag.  I bet you'll have cool mudflaps too. 

Ask GiC or Admiralnick about the bumpersticker that's already on my car
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« Reply #174 on: May 04, 2009, 08:17:38 PM »

I knew it.  You'll be driving cross country in an F150 with a gunrack and a confederate flag.  I bet you'll have cool mudflaps too. 

Ask GiC or Admiralnick about the bumpersticker that's already on my car

Maybe we'll catch up in chat.  Unlike Americans who think the world is theirs to pollute with their cars, I have to catch the bus and head to class.   Wink
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« Reply #175 on: May 04, 2009, 08:21:16 PM »

By the time you get here this summer you'll be entirely indistinguishable from an American.  
I am already indistinguishable from an American, and so are people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and so are people everywhere. We are all one race- the human race. We are all blood brothers. We are all one family. And like siblings in all families, we sometimes fight one another, but we are still one family.
The "distinction" is artificial.

I knew it.  You'll be driving cross country in an F150 with a gunrack and a confederate flag.  I bet you'll have cool mudflaps too. 

Said the fellow who supposedly disdains stereotypes.  Wink
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« Reply #176 on: May 04, 2009, 08:37:22 PM »

I was just outside singing Bob Marley's "Three Little Birds" to my kids and they went from banshee nuts to happy and calm listening to daddy sing and strum.  Made me think that maybe I should turn a new leaf and advocate meeting terrorists by asking for forgiveness and singing "don't worry, about a thing, cause every little thing, gonna be alright" or some similar happy song.

And then I realized they would probably have cut my head off before I could get to the part in the verse I love, "pitched by my doorstep" and quickly changed my mind.

FYI, for anyone who has ever thought about playing guitar, I would recommend learning to play "Three Little Birds".  Just three chords and a rhythm that are easy to learn and play, easy to remember lyrics, everyone always sings along.

I agree with George on this one.  In the long term, soft power is far cheaper and a far more effective way of obtaining national security than ad hoc military responses.  Even Robert Gates has said as much - dealing with the root causes of war, investing more in diplomacy, international development and the like will do far more to prevent terrorism a generation from now than a military-only strategy.      

I wouldn't disagree, long term you have to use the carrot. If we could eliminate poverty that alone would put a big dent in war and evil. But until that paradise arrives, sometimes you have to use the stick.
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« Reply #177 on: May 04, 2009, 08:59:17 PM »

By the time you get here this summer you'll be entirely indistinguishable from an American.  
I am already indistinguishable from an American, and so are people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and so are people everywhere. We are all one race- the human race. We are all blood brothers. We are all one family. And like siblings in all families, we sometimes fight one another, but we are still one family.
The "distinction" is artificial.

I knew it.  You'll be driving cross country in an F150 with a gunrack and a confederate flag.  I bet you'll have cool mudflaps too. 

Is that the narrow minded vision of American's you arrived at because of the past U.S. president? (Bush) or is that taught to you?
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« Reply #178 on: May 04, 2009, 10:06:21 PM »

Is that the narrow minded vision of American's you arrived at because of the past U.S. president? (Bush) or is that taught to you?

Dear findingfaith,
As a new member of the forum, you probably are not aware of our policy about not posting political posts in the public forum,
We actually have a Private Forum which allows for political debates and other polemical debates. If you would like to have access to the Private Forums, please pm Fr. Chris, the forum administrator. Please do not discuss current and contentious politics in the Public Fora.
Regards,
George
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« Reply #179 on: May 04, 2009, 10:22:54 PM »

Is that the narrow minded vision of American's you arrived at because of the past U.S. president? (Bush) or is that taught to you?

Dear findingfaith,
As a new member of the forum, you probably are not aware of our policy about not posting political posts in the public forum,
We actually have a Private Forum which allows for political debates and other polemical debates. If you would like to have access to the Private Forums, please pm Fr. Chris, the forum administrator. Please do not discuss current and contentious politics in the Public Fora.
Regards,
George


My bad, I was not aware simply using a former politician in reference was wholly political in nature. I will refrain in the future.

I would like to point out though, as i'm sure you, and others might have noticed, quite a few post's in this thread may well fall in this category as well  Wink  But that does not excuse my use of it.

George
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