Author Topic: Family Tree of Abrahamic Faiths/Religions according to Orthodox (Need Help)  (Read 21042 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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I've been wanting to do this for a while (I don't know why). But after seeing the general timeline that is thrown around the Orthodox world of Church history, I felt maybe it could be expanded upon to show the whole family tree of Abrahamic faiths.

What I would like to know, is, according to Eastern Orthodox interpretations of faiths, schisms, links, etc... Would this family tree be correct? If not, what should I correct?


Offline mike

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1. No idea why Arianism and Nestorianism are together, they were completely different.
2. No idea  why Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics are separated, they are one Church
3. You didn't mark unions between Catholics and OOs and Nestorians.
4. There aren't modern schisms in EO Church (calendar and anticommunist).

I'd also made One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church line bold to point out that we are the Church :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:02:36 PM by mike »

Offline Didymus

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Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.

Can understand why that nice, though somewhat strict, Ethiopian in Melbourne said to me, "Only the Oriental Orthodox are Christian."

Was pleased nonetheless to hear less strict views when this one wasn't about though 8)
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Offline Jetavan

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You forgot Baha'ism. Not to mention the Bogomils, Sethians, and other "interesting" groups. :o
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Offline 88Devin12

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I didn't include a lot of movements because of how many there are and how little space I have to work with.

I also didn't include any breakaway groups from Oriental Orthodoxy because I don't know much about it's history, other than the fact that they broke away at Chalcedon.

Arianism and Nestorianism are together more for the sake so that Islam can be shown that it borrowed ideas from both. They aren't a single movement, but I wanted to show Islam's relation to it. That part can change though.

I didn't mark a lot of unions because of the way I had to organize the tree. I wanted to put Islam so it could connect with both Judaism and Arianism/Nestorianism.
I wanted Roman Catholicism to connect to Protestantism and also show the union groups between EO and RC.

Also, with the EO Church, modern schisms are also somewhat small. I could probably include the Old Calendar schism, but not many others since the Old Believer schism is also there.

Offline 88Devin12

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Is this better?


Offline Salpy

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I'm not sure I would put Rastafari as a split off from the OO Church.  Sure some of them worship an emperor who was OO, but the Rastafari movement was not founded by OO's, nor did it split off from the Ethiopian Church, or any other OO Church.  I believe its founders were men who had been Protestant, but never Ethiopian Orthodox, or members of any other OO Church.

Offline 88Devin12

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Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

Offline John of the North

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Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...
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Offline Jetavan

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Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.
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Offline John of the North

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Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.

*blinks*

aka. a syncretist, new age movement?? :P
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I'm not sure I would put Rastafari as a split off from the OO Church.  Sure some of them worship an emperor who was OO, but the Rastafari movement was not founded by OO's, nor did it split off from the Ethiopian Church, or any other OO Church.  I believe its founders were men who had been Protestant, but never Ethiopian Orthodox, or members of any other OO Church.

You are mostly correct here Salpy. The Rastafari faith was in no way an offshoot of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. First of all, to clarify, Rastafari is better understood as a movement or a faith rather than a religion. Although for the sake of legal rights (such as Rastafarians in prison), "Rastafarianism" has been recognized in some places an official religion. But all true Rastas eschew the term "Rastafarianism," because Rastas seek to promote unity and avoid divisive practices such as politics and organized religion which they view as "ism /schism."

Undoubtedly, the Rastafari movement was heavily influenced by the Revivalism that saturated Jamaica. This explains the Rastas love for the Holy Bible, the apocalyptic view of "Babylon," and the heavy moral and fundamentalist strains that permeate the Rasta consciousness. (All of these things, by the way, are what led me to embrace the Rasta lifestyle years ago.)

The EOTC holds a unique place in the eyes of Rastafarians. Most Rastas were not aware of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church until His Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie sent Archbishop Yesehaq to Jamaica to proclaim the ancient and true Christian Faith among those who were erroneously worshiping the Emperor as Christ Himself.

Many Rastas immedialtey embraced the Faith of His Majesty, and they were baptized by Abuna Yesehaq into the Orthodox Church. But many Rastas also rebelled against what they felt was the intrusion of yet another organized religion upon their sacred beliefs and way of life. Abuna Yesehaq was wise enough to understand the roots of this legitimate fear and reaction, and patiently showed these Rastas that he in no way wanted to undermine their sacred way of life or their holy traditions.

Some Rastas dsired to be baptized, but demanded that the Archbishop baptize them in Haile Selassie's name. Of course, Archbishop Yesehaq explained that this was not possible, and this angered a lot of the Rastas. Peter Tosh, who was one of the original Wailers, did not like the Church. In fact, he used to perform with an Ethiopian hand Cross and bless the crowd with it like a Priest would do. (A very unorthodox action, but may God bless him still.)

Today there are many Rastafarians who have entered into the EOTC through baptism and profess and strive to practice true Christian doctrine. I myself and one such man. Those of us who are Rastas and also Orthodox Christians believe that to truly follow His Majetsy Haile Selassie's words and example is to embrace the true and ancient Christian Faith of Ethiopia. So, one can be a Rasta and also be an Orthodox Christian. But one does not have to be a Christian to be a Rasta. As I said, Rastafari is best understood as a Movement or Faith, not as a releigion.

So, to address the issue at hand: It is not accurate to say that the Rastafarian movement is an offshoot of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

OK. I hope that wasn't too confusing.

Selam 
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Bob Marley was baptized by Abuna Yesehaq shortly before his passing. He was given the baptismal name of Birhan Selassie, which means "Light of the Trinity." So, do not hesitate to proclaim Bob Marley as our Orthodox brother! The world needs to know!

Selam
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Offline Jetavan

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Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.

*blinks*

aka. a syncretist, new age movement?? :P

Well, "New Age" implies significant influences from the Western occultic/magickal traditions (Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah) and Asian enlightenment traditions (Yoga, Dhyana, Samadhi), all mixed up and made palatable to middle-class white North ("north of Mexico") Americans.

The use of Ganja by Rastafarians might have some connection to the importation of Asian Indian migrants into Jamaica, but that's about the extent of any direct Asian influence. And Rastafarians don't seem to be all that into practicing magick or doing astrology, so there's minimal occultic or magickal elements there. However, Rastafarians do live in North America, so you may have a point. ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 01:38:36 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Is this better?

No, because you still claim Nestorians are "non-Trinitarian."

Also, Gnosticism is not an off-shoot from Christianity. There were numerous Gnostic sects before Christianity came alone, some of these later adopted Christian elements and beliefs after the coming of Christ.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 01:55:13 PM by Orthodox11 »

Offline 88Devin12

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Hows this? I did a few more changes to it...


Offline Fr. George

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Also, Gnosticism is not an off-shoot from Christianity. There were numerous Gnostic sects before Christianity came alone, some of these later adopted Christian elements and beliefs after the coming of Christ.

Absolutely right.  It would be better to put Gnosticism as a parallel line with no source on the Judaeo-Christian line, but then a dotted diagonal from the Judaeo-Christian line to the Gnostic one to show that it had adopted Christian principles and ideas.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Orthodox11

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Hows this? I did a few more changes to it...

A lot better. You should perhaps extend the Nestiorian line all the way to the end and point out that it is today known as the Assyrian Church of the East, which also claims "to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church...etc." This church also split into two groups - traditionalists and modernists - over the subject of a married patriarchate and use of the Gregorian calendar.

The majority of the Church of the East were united to Rome and became known as Chaldean Catholics (might want another line going back into Catholicism.....same with the Monothelites who are now Maronite Catholics).

Offline 88Devin12

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edited (removed chart)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:40:15 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Fr. George

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Devin,

On the main line, where you have "Polytheism...... Henotheism.... Monotheism...." you should probably change "Trinity" to "Trinitarian Monotheism."
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline 88Devin12

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Ah ok... That does make more sense than just having "Trinity"...

Offline mike

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Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

I like it now :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:43:01 PM by mike »

Offline Fr. George

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Ah ok... That does make more sense than just having "Trinity"...

More sense, and it's a more accurate description of what we believe; we do not deny "Shema Israel" (Hear, O Israel, your God is One).

Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

It is, but we're not necessarily looking for a complete tree of influences on each branch; Judaism is the major foundational point for the movement toward Islam, while other factors played into the actual dogmatic beginning.  So, too, was there a realization by Christianity that other people had been expounding truth about the One God without realizing it (ancient Greek philosophers, etc.); we don't include them on the tree because they weren't the major foundation for our faith; Judaism and the coming of Christ was.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline 88Devin12

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Yeah it is, that's why I only have dotted lines from Judaism and Arianism.

Latest version:
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 04:06:48 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline mike

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Yeah it is, that's why I only have dotted lines from Judaism and Arianism.

Latest version:...

good work, maybe a one more line from EO Church to RC Church (Greek Catholics?)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 04:10:53 PM by mike »

Offline 88Devin12

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Yeah it is, that's why I only have dotted lines from Judaism and Arianism.

Latest version:...

good work, maybe a one more line from EO Church to RC Church (Greek Catholics?)
done (not shown online though)

Offline Tallitot

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Also the Druze, Samaritans, Mandaeans
Proverbs 22:7

Offline ialmisry

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Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

I like it now :)

Islam? :o
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Offline Fr. George

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Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

I like it now :)

Islam? :o

I think he meant the timeline.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure we'll see an announcement in a few months...
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Jetavan

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Also the Druze, Samaritans, Mandaeans

Bringing in the Druze just opens up a whole can of worms. :o
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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So where do the Pastafarians fit in?

Offline LBK

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So where do the Pastafarians fit in?

Is this a typo, Alveus, or one of the better puns I've seen lately?  :laugh:
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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So where do the Pastafarians fit in?

Many Rastafarians view themselves to be one of the lost tribes of Israel. Some view themselves as the true Israelites. But since Rastafari encompasses a wide set of beliefs, it would be hard to pin down as to what its' specific roots are. But undoubtedly it has its roots in Judaic Faith, and culminates in unique Christian interpretations revolving around Haile Selassie and Ethiopia. Here is my brief chronolgy of its evolution:

-Garden of Eden is in Ethiopia/Africa(Genesis 2:13), thus "Black" man was original man.
-Old Testament Patriarchs and Prophets
-Judaic Law
-Solomon and the Queen of Sheba
-Ark of Covenant comes to Ethiopia
-European enslavement and colonization of Africans for around 400 years parallels Israelite's enslavement in Egypt for 400 years.
-Marcus Garvey (Black Jamaican Catholic radical)prophesies that an African King will arise to liberate Africans at home and abroad.
-Prince Ras Tafari of Ethiopia is crowned by his Orthodox Christian baptismal name "Haile Selassie" which means "Power of the Holy Trinity."
-Many Black people in Jamaica see this historical event as the fulfillment of Marcus Garvey's prophecy. The Rastafarian movement is born when many begin to interpret Haile Selassie's name as evidence of fulfillment of the prophecy of Revelation 5:5.
-Rastafarians begin to proclaim Haile Selassie as Christ in His second coming. They hold to the Levitical law as much as possible, and take the Nazarite vow (thus their dreadlocks and beards, their vegetarian diet, their avoidance of alcohol, and their shunning of tattoos etc.)
-Haile Selassie learns that some people in Jamaica are worshiping him. He is deeply grieved by this and therefore sends Archbishop Yesehaq to Jamaica to teach the true and ancient Orthodox Christian Faith. Many Rastafarians are baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
-A Rastafarian named Dr. Vernon Carrington, AKA "Prophet Gad," begins to teach that Haile Seassie is not Christ, but that he represents Christ in His "kingly character." Dr. Carrington starts the "12 Tribes House of Ratafari" which is based on the proper worship of the true Christ of the Holy Bible. Haile Selassie is revered but not worshipped by the 12 Tribes. Prophet Gad teaches that "a chapter a day (of the Bible) keeps the devil away." Today the 12 Tribes comprises the largest group of Rastafarians in the world, many of whom are members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Bob Marley was part of the 12 Tribes.   

OK. That is VERY brief, but I hope it helps.

Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline Salpy

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If the Rastafari movement were to be included, I would put it on one of the branches coming out of Protestantism, since the founders had been Protestants.  It's founders were not Oriental Orthodox.  Like Gebre Menfes Kidus said, though, it is hard to pin down.

Offline John of the North

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Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.

*blinks*

aka. a syncretist, new age movement?? :P

Well, "New Age" implies significant influences from the Western occultic/magickal traditions (Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah) and Asian enlightenment traditions (Yoga, Dhyana, Samadhi), all mixed up and made palatable to middle-class white North ("north of Mexico") Americans.

The use of Ganja by Rastafarians might have some connection to the importation of Asian Indian migrants into Jamaica, but that's about the extent of any direct Asian influence. And Rastafarians don't seem to be all that into practicing magick or doing astrology, so there's minimal occultic or magickal elements there. However, Rastafarians do live in North America, so you may have a point. ;)

Rastafari has strong Gnostic influences and the presence of yoga and other Asian religious influences is also present. Besides that, the fact that in one Rastafari religious text, a so-called prophet bites some of his fingers off in a response from "God".....rather occultish I'd say...
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Rastafari has strong Gnostic influences and the presence of yoga and other Asian religious influences is also present. Besides that, the fact that in one Rastafari religious text, a so-called prophet bites some of his fingers off in a response from "God".....rather occultish I'd say...

The presence of Gnostic influence is minimal, although it can be found. As for this Rasta text that you mention, I have never heard of this story. Can you give us a reference and a context?

Reasoning with Rastafarians about the Bible can be tricky. On the one hand, Rastas have a deep love and profound knowledge of the Holy Bible. But on the other hand, they are very mistrustful of Eurocentric interpretations and versions of the sacred texts. So when engaging Rastafarians about the Bible, it is good to affirm the Ethiopic canon and the Ethiopic version. But it is also good to point out that Haile Selassie himself said that, "Whatever version or language it may be written, the message of the Bible remains one and the same. For myself, I glory in the Holy Bible." 

Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Is this a typo, Alveus, or one of the better puns I've seen lately?  :laugh:


Offline John of the North

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Rastafari has strong Gnostic influences and the presence of yoga and other Asian religious influences is also present. Besides that, the fact that in one Rastafari religious text, a so-called prophet bites some of his fingers off in a response from "God".....rather occultish I'd say...

The presence of Gnostic influence is minimal, although it can be found. As for this Rasta text that you mention, I have never heard of this story. Can you give us a reference and a context?

Reasoning with Rastafarians about the Bible can be tricky. On the one hand, Rastas have a deep love and profound knowledge of the Holy Bible. But on the other hand, they are very mistrustful of Eurocentric interpretations and versions of the sacred texts. So when engaging Rastafarians about the Bible, it is good to affirm the Ethiopic canon and the Ethiopic version. But it is also good to point out that Haile Selassie himself said that, "Whatever version or language it may be written, the message of the Bible remains one and the same. For myself, I glory in the Holy Bible." 

Selam

I would say certainly in some circles the Gnosticism is much much more than just minimal, just as I'm sure you will find Rastas who do not even follow the so-called sacred text which follows:
"And it came to pass on the third Saturday night of the seventh month of the year nineteen hundred and twenty-seven, the word of the Lord came to Athlyi saying, "Tomorrow, thou shalt with thine own blood set apart the Athlyians from the rest of the world's inhabitants, that I may glory in them and nourish them."
I shall send my angels and they shall dwell among the Athlyians and teach them new things. Verily, the women as well as the men shall develop great in science."
"Fear not, because of the inventions of today," saith the Lord, "for greater shall come out of my people, the Athlyians. They shall school Ethiopia. Consequently the sons and daughters of Ham shall be a burning light unto all the earth."
On the next day which was Sunday, while the Shepherd Athlyi preached before the people who came out to Gaathly, the spirit of the Lord came upon him and he then bit the top of his fingers, so that the blood spouted." http://sacred-texts.com/afr/piby/piby18.htm
"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

Offline Salpy

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That's from the "Holy Piby," right?  I know very little about these things.  How widely is it embraced by Rastas as being scripture?  Wasn't it written before the movement really was founded?  Do those who embrace it as scripture put it on the same level as the Bible?

« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 01:27:31 AM by Salpy »

Offline John of the North

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That's from the "Holy Piby," right?  I know very little about these things.  How widely is it embraced by Rastas as being scripture?  Wasn't it written before the movement really was founded?  Do those who embrace it as scripture put it on the same level as the Bible?

It is certainly very popular among certain sections of Rastas (the Bobo Ashanti come to mind). Other sections probably have no idea it exists/have never read it. It was indeed written before formal organization of Rastafari began. Probably amongst those who consider it a holy text, it is probably placed on a similar level to Scripture...
"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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That's from the "Holy Piby," right?  I know very little about these things.  How widely is it embraced by Rastas as being scripture?  Wasn't it written before the movement really was founded?  Do those who embrace it as scripture put it on the same level as the Bible?

It is certainly very popular among certain sections of Rastas (the Bobo Ashanti come to mind). Other sections probably have no idea it exists/have never read it. It was indeed written before formal organization of Rastafari began. Probably amongst those who consider it a holy text, it is probably placed on a similar level to Scripture...

The Holy Piby (Athlyi Rogers) and The Promised Key (written by Leonard Howell) were both attempts to create an Afro-centric scriptural source that would be the ultimate guide for all Rastafarians. While these writings are respected amongst Rastas that are familiar with them, they have nevertheless failed to replace the authority and position of the Holy Bible amongst most Rastafarians. The Holy Bible (although admittedly interpreted very broadly and in sometimes in very unorhtodox ways) and the words of His Majesty Haile Selassie I remain the paramount sources of authority and guidance for Rastafarians. Of course it may be argued that the Gnostic influence is present in the Rastafarian belief that JAH (God) is inseparable from the Rasta individual, and thus speaks directly to and through that individual. For example, when I confronted a friend of mine who unapologetically worships Haile Selassie with Selassie's own words of Chrisitian affirmation, my friend simply responded by saying, "His Majesty has never told me this himself." To him, the words I read from Haile Selassie had probably been fabricated and erroneously attributed to him by white tricksters who wanted to keep Black people in ignorance about Haile Selassie's true divinity. So, you see, it is a tricky thing to try and argue with Rastafarians. The best thing to do is simply demonstrate a sincere heart and manifest Peace and Love. Act like Christ rather than preaching about Him, and you will be warmly received. 

Selam   
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

Offline mike

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Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

Islam? :o

Quote
In pre-Islamic Arabia, gods or goddesses were viewed as protectors of individual tribes, their spirits being associated with sacred trees, stones, springs and wells. As well as being the site of an annual pilgrimage, the Kaaba shrine in Mecca housed 360 idol statues of tribal patron deities. Aside from these gods, the Arabs shared a common belief in a supreme deity called Allah (literally "the god"), who was remote from their everyday concerns and thus not the object of cult or ritual.

from wiki

Offline Fr. George

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Islam? :o

Quote
In pre-Islamic Arabia, gods or goddesses were viewed as protectors of individual tribes, their spirits being associated with sacred trees, stones, springs and wells. As well as being the site of an annual pilgrimage, the Kaaba shrine in Mecca housed 360 idol statues of tribal patron deities. Aside from these gods, the Arabs shared a common belief in a supreme deity called Allah (literally "the god"), who was remote from their everyday concerns and thus not the object of cult or ritual.

from wiki

Mike, Isa's comment was to your "I like it now" that came at the end of the post about Islam.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline mike

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Mike, Isa's comment was to your "I like it now" that came at the end of the post about Islam.

lol
It was about 88Devin12's work which really impressed me and I cannot find any bugs now :)

I'm neither impressed by nor interested in Islam.

Offline 88Devin12

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Here is the chart as it is now...
I didn't continue the line for Samaritans because of the lack of space, also I read that there are only like 700 now so the movement is no longer as strong...