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Author Topic: Family Tree of Abrahamic Faiths/Religions according to Orthodox (Need Help)  (Read 14468 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: April 29, 2009, 01:33:08 PM »

I've been wanting to do this for a while (I don't know why). But after seeing the general timeline that is thrown around the Orthodox world of Church history, I felt maybe it could be expanded upon to show the whole family tree of Abrahamic faiths.

What I would like to know, is, according to Eastern Orthodox interpretations of faiths, schisms, links, etc... Would this family tree be correct? If not, what should I correct?

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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 02:01:18 PM »

1. No idea why Arianism and Nestorianism are together, they were completely different.
2. No idea  why Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics are separated, they are one Church
3. You didn't mark unions between Catholics and OOs and Nestorians.
4. There aren't modern schisms in EO Church (calendar and anticommunist).

I'd also made One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church line bold to point out that we are the Church Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 02:12:56 PM »

Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.

Can understand why that nice, though somewhat strict, Ethiopian in Melbourne said to me, "Only the Oriental Orthodox are Christian."

Was pleased nonetheless to hear less strict views when this one wasn't about though Cool
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 02:21:40 PM »

You forgot Baha'ism. Not to mention the Bogomils, Sethians, and other "interesting" groups. Shocked
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 02:38:29 PM »

I didn't include a lot of movements because of how many there are and how little space I have to work with.

I also didn't include any breakaway groups from Oriental Orthodoxy because I don't know much about it's history, other than the fact that they broke away at Chalcedon.

Arianism and Nestorianism are together more for the sake so that Islam can be shown that it borrowed ideas from both. They aren't a single movement, but I wanted to show Islam's relation to it. That part can change though.

I didn't mark a lot of unions because of the way I had to organize the tree. I wanted to put Islam so it could connect with both Judaism and Arianism/Nestorianism.
I wanted Roman Catholicism to connect to Protestantism and also show the union groups between EO and RC.

Also, with the EO Church, modern schisms are also somewhat small. I could probably include the Old Calendar schism, but not many others since the Old Believer schism is also there.
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 07:05:09 PM »

Is this better?

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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 08:47:35 PM »

I'm not sure I would put Rastafari as a split off from the OO Church.  Sure some of them worship an emperor who was OO, but the Rastafari movement was not founded by OO's, nor did it split off from the Ethiopian Church, or any other OO Church.  I believe its founders were men who had been Protestant, but never Ethiopian Orthodox, or members of any other OO Church.
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 09:47:23 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 10:13:13 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 10:42:22 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.
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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 10:45:12 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.

*blinks*

aka. a syncretist, new age movement?? Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 11:04:00 PM »

I'm not sure I would put Rastafari as a split off from the OO Church.  Sure some of them worship an emperor who was OO, but the Rastafari movement was not founded by OO's, nor did it split off from the Ethiopian Church, or any other OO Church.  I believe its founders were men who had been Protestant, but never Ethiopian Orthodox, or members of any other OO Church.

You are mostly correct here Salpy. The Rastafari faith was in no way an offshoot of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. First of all, to clarify, Rastafari is better understood as a movement or a faith rather than a religion. Although for the sake of legal rights (such as Rastafarians in prison), "Rastafarianism" has been recognized in some places an official religion. But all true Rastas eschew the term "Rastafarianism," because Rastas seek to promote unity and avoid divisive practices such as politics and organized religion which they view as "ism /schism."

Undoubtedly, the Rastafari movement was heavily influenced by the Revivalism that saturated Jamaica. This explains the Rastas love for the Holy Bible, the apocalyptic view of "Babylon," and the heavy moral and fundamentalist strains that permeate the Rasta consciousness. (All of these things, by the way, are what led me to embrace the Rasta lifestyle years ago.)

The EOTC holds a unique place in the eyes of Rastafarians. Most Rastas were not aware of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church until His Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie sent Archbishop Yesehaq to Jamaica to proclaim the ancient and true Christian Faith among those who were erroneously worshiping the Emperor as Christ Himself.

Many Rastas immedialtey embraced the Faith of His Majesty, and they were baptized by Abuna Yesehaq into the Orthodox Church. But many Rastas also rebelled against what they felt was the intrusion of yet another organized religion upon their sacred beliefs and way of life. Abuna Yesehaq was wise enough to understand the roots of this legitimate fear and reaction, and patiently showed these Rastas that he in no way wanted to undermine their sacred way of life or their holy traditions.

Some Rastas dsired to be baptized, but demanded that the Archbishop baptize them in Haile Selassie's name. Of course, Archbishop Yesehaq explained that this was not possible, and this angered a lot of the Rastas. Peter Tosh, who was one of the original Wailers, did not like the Church. In fact, he used to perform with an Ethiopian hand Cross and bless the crowd with it like a Priest would do. (A very unorthodox action, but may God bless him still.)

Today there are many Rastafarians who have entered into the EOTC through baptism and profess and strive to practice true Christian doctrine. I myself and one such man. Those of us who are Rastas and also Orthodox Christians believe that to truly follow His Majetsy Haile Selassie's words and example is to embrace the true and ancient Christian Faith of Ethiopia. So, one can be a Rasta and also be an Orthodox Christian. But one does not have to be a Christian to be a Rasta. As I said, Rastafari is best understood as a Movement or Faith, not as a releigion.

So, to address the issue at hand: It is not accurate to say that the Rastafarian movement is an offshoot of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

OK. I hope that wasn't too confusing.

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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 11:07:30 PM »

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Bob Marley was baptized by Abuna Yesehaq shortly before his passing. He was given the baptismal name of Birhan Selassie, which means "Light of the Trinity." So, do not hesitate to proclaim Bob Marley as our Orthodox brother! The world needs to know!

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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2009, 01:37:31 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.

*blinks*

aka. a syncretist, new age movement?? Tongue

Well, "New Age" implies significant influences from the Western occultic/magickal traditions (Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah) and Asian enlightenment traditions (Yoga, Dhyana, Samadhi), all mixed up and made palatable to middle-class white North ("north of Mexico") Americans.

The use of Ganja by Rastafarians might have some connection to the importation of Asian Indian migrants into Jamaica, but that's about the extent of any direct Asian influence. And Rastafarians don't seem to be all that into practicing magick or doing astrology, so there's minimal occultic or magickal elements there. However, Rastafarians do live in North America, so you may have a point. Wink
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2009, 01:52:11 PM »

Is this better?

No, because you still claim Nestorians are "non-Trinitarian."

Also, Gnosticism is not an off-shoot from Christianity. There were numerous Gnostic sects before Christianity came alone, some of these later adopted Christian elements and beliefs after the coming of Christ.
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2009, 02:14:31 PM »

Hows this? I did a few more changes to it...

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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 02:42:01 PM »

Also, Gnosticism is not an off-shoot from Christianity. There were numerous Gnostic sects before Christianity came alone, some of these later adopted Christian elements and beliefs after the coming of Christ.

Absolutely right.  It would be better to put Gnosticism as a parallel line with no source on the Judaeo-Christian line, but then a dotted diagonal from the Judaeo-Christian line to the Gnostic one to show that it had adopted Christian principles and ideas.
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 03:14:18 PM »

Hows this? I did a few more changes to it...

A lot better. You should perhaps extend the Nestiorian line all the way to the end and point out that it is today known as the Assyrian Church of the East, which also claims "to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church...etc." This church also split into two groups - traditionalists and modernists - over the subject of a married patriarchate and use of the Gregorian calendar.

The majority of the Church of the East were united to Rome and became known as Chaldean Catholics (might want another line going back into Catholicism.....same with the Monothelites who are now Maronite Catholics).
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 03:37:53 PM »

edited (removed chart)
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 03:38:32 PM »

Devin,

On the main line, where you have "Polytheism...... Henotheism.... Monotheism...." you should probably change "Trinity" to "Trinitarian Monotheism."
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 03:39:23 PM »

Ah ok... That does make more sense than just having "Trinity"...
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 03:42:45 PM »

Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

I like it now Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2009, 04:03:44 PM »

Ah ok... That does make more sense than just having "Trinity"...

More sense, and it's a more accurate description of what we believe; we do not deny "Shema Israel" (Hear, O Israel, your God is One).

Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

It is, but we're not necessarily looking for a complete tree of influences on each branch; Judaism is the major foundational point for the movement toward Islam, while other factors played into the actual dogmatic beginning.  So, too, was there a realization by Christianity that other people had been expounding truth about the One God without realizing it (ancient Greek philosophers, etc.); we don't include them on the tree because they weren't the major foundation for our faith; Judaism and the coming of Christ was.
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2009, 04:03:44 PM »

Yeah it is, that's why I only have dotted lines from Judaism and Arianism.

Latest version:
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2009, 04:09:04 PM »

Yeah it is, that's why I only have dotted lines from Judaism and Arianism.

Latest version:...

good work, maybe a one more line from EO Church to RC Church (Greek Catholics?)
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2009, 04:12:44 PM »

Yeah it is, that's why I only have dotted lines from Judaism and Arianism.

Latest version:...

good work, maybe a one more line from EO Church to RC Church (Greek Catholics?)
done (not shown online though)
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2009, 04:18:34 PM »

Also the Druze, Samaritans, Mandaeans
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2009, 04:19:51 PM »

Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

I like it now Smiley

Islam? Shocked
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2009, 05:01:14 PM »

Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

I like it now Smiley

Islam? Shocked

I think he meant the timeline.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure we'll see an announcement in a few months...
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2009, 05:53:53 PM »

Also the Druze, Samaritans, Mandaeans

Bringing in the Druze just opens up a whole can of worms. Shocked
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2009, 06:55:59 PM »

So where do the Pastafarians fit in?
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2009, 07:19:46 PM »

So where do the Pastafarians fit in?

Is this a typo, Alveus, or one of the better puns I've seen lately?  laugh
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2009, 07:47:44 PM »

So where do the Pastafarians fit in?

Many Rastafarians view themselves to be one of the lost tribes of Israel. Some view themselves as the true Israelites. But since Rastafari encompasses a wide set of beliefs, it would be hard to pin down as to what its' specific roots are. But undoubtedly it has its roots in Judaic Faith, and culminates in unique Christian interpretations revolving around Haile Selassie and Ethiopia. Here is my brief chronolgy of its evolution:

-Garden of Eden is in Ethiopia/Africa(Genesis 2:13), thus "Black" man was original man.
-Old Testament Patriarchs and Prophets
-Judaic Law
-Solomon and the Queen of Sheba
-Ark of Covenant comes to Ethiopia
-European enslavement and colonization of Africans for around 400 years parallels Israelite's enslavement in Egypt for 400 years.
-Marcus Garvey (Black Jamaican Catholic radical)prophesies that an African King will arise to liberate Africans at home and abroad.
-Prince Ras Tafari of Ethiopia is crowned by his Orthodox Christian baptismal name "Haile Selassie" which means "Power of the Holy Trinity."
-Many Black people in Jamaica see this historical event as the fulfillment of Marcus Garvey's prophecy. The Rastafarian movement is born when many begin to interpret Haile Selassie's name as evidence of fulfillment of the prophecy of Revelation 5:5.
-Rastafarians begin to proclaim Haile Selassie as Christ in His second coming. They hold to the Levitical law as much as possible, and take the Nazarite vow (thus their dreadlocks and beards, their vegetarian diet, their avoidance of alcohol, and their shunning of tattoos etc.)
-Haile Selassie learns that some people in Jamaica are worshiping him. He is deeply grieved by this and therefore sends Archbishop Yesehaq to Jamaica to teach the true and ancient Orthodox Christian Faith. Many Rastafarians are baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
-A Rastafarian named Dr. Vernon Carrington, AKA "Prophet Gad," begins to teach that Haile Seassie is not Christ, but that he represents Christ in His "kingly character." Dr. Carrington starts the "12 Tribes House of Ratafari" which is based on the proper worship of the true Christ of the Holy Bible. Haile Selassie is revered but not worshipped by the 12 Tribes. Prophet Gad teaches that "a chapter a day (of the Bible) keeps the devil away." Today the 12 Tribes comprises the largest group of Rastafarians in the world, many of whom are members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Bob Marley was part of the 12 Tribes.   

OK. That is VERY brief, but I hope it helps.

Selam
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2009, 07:57:34 PM »

If the Rastafari movement were to be included, I would put it on one of the branches coming out of Protestantism, since the founders had been Protestants.  It's founders were not Oriental Orthodox.  Like Gebre Menfes Kidus said, though, it is hard to pin down.
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2009, 09:18:58 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

It's a syncretist "new age" movement...

It was initially inspired a lot by Marcus Garvey, who himself, I believe, grew up Anglican in Jamaica; so maybe we can say that Rastafarianism is partly an off-shoot of the Church of England, partly an off-shoot of an Afro-Jamaican reading of Jewish scripture and messianism.

*blinks*

aka. a syncretist, new age movement?? Tongue

Well, "New Age" implies significant influences from the Western occultic/magickal traditions (Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah) and Asian enlightenment traditions (Yoga, Dhyana, Samadhi), all mixed up and made palatable to middle-class white North ("north of Mexico") Americans.

The use of Ganja by Rastafarians might have some connection to the importation of Asian Indian migrants into Jamaica, but that's about the extent of any direct Asian influence. And Rastafarians don't seem to be all that into practicing magick or doing astrology, so there's minimal occultic or magickal elements there. However, Rastafarians do live in North America, so you may have a point. Wink

Rastafari has strong Gnostic influences and the presence of yoga and other Asian religious influences is also present. Besides that, the fact that in one Rastafari religious text, a so-called prophet bites some of his fingers off in a response from "God".....rather occultish I'd say...
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2009, 11:26:48 PM »

Rastafari has strong Gnostic influences and the presence of yoga and other Asian religious influences is also present. Besides that, the fact that in one Rastafari religious text, a so-called prophet bites some of his fingers off in a response from "God".....rather occultish I'd say...

The presence of Gnostic influence is minimal, although it can be found. As for this Rasta text that you mention, I have never heard of this story. Can you give us a reference and a context?

Reasoning with Rastafarians about the Bible can be tricky. On the one hand, Rastas have a deep love and profound knowledge of the Holy Bible. But on the other hand, they are very mistrustful of Eurocentric interpretations and versions of the sacred texts. So when engaging Rastafarians about the Bible, it is good to affirm the Ethiopic canon and the Ethiopic version. But it is also good to point out that Haile Selassie himself said that, "Whatever version or language it may be written, the message of the Bible remains one and the same. For myself, I glory in the Holy Bible." 

Selam
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2009, 12:41:00 AM »

Is this a typo, Alveus, or one of the better puns I've seen lately?  laugh

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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2009, 12:50:32 AM »

Rastafari has strong Gnostic influences and the presence of yoga and other Asian religious influences is also present. Besides that, the fact that in one Rastafari religious text, a so-called prophet bites some of his fingers off in a response from "God".....rather occultish I'd say...

The presence of Gnostic influence is minimal, although it can be found. As for this Rasta text that you mention, I have never heard of this story. Can you give us a reference and a context?

Reasoning with Rastafarians about the Bible can be tricky. On the one hand, Rastas have a deep love and profound knowledge of the Holy Bible. But on the other hand, they are very mistrustful of Eurocentric interpretations and versions of the sacred texts. So when engaging Rastafarians about the Bible, it is good to affirm the Ethiopic canon and the Ethiopic version. But it is also good to point out that Haile Selassie himself said that, "Whatever version or language it may be written, the message of the Bible remains one and the same. For myself, I glory in the Holy Bible." 

Selam

I would say certainly in some circles the Gnosticism is much much more than just minimal, just as I'm sure you will find Rastas who do not even follow the so-called sacred text which follows:
"And it came to pass on the third Saturday night of the seventh month of the year nineteen hundred and twenty-seven, the word of the Lord came to Athlyi saying, "Tomorrow, thou shalt with thine own blood set apart the Athlyians from the rest of the world's inhabitants, that I may glory in them and nourish them."
I shall send my angels and they shall dwell among the Athlyians and teach them new things. Verily, the women as well as the men shall develop great in science."
"Fear not, because of the inventions of today," saith the Lord, "for greater shall come out of my people, the Athlyians. They shall school Ethiopia. Consequently the sons and daughters of Ham shall be a burning light unto all the earth."
On the next day which was Sunday, while the Shepherd Athlyi preached before the people who came out to Gaathly, the spirit of the Lord came upon him and he then bit the top of his fingers, so that the blood spouted." http://sacred-texts.com/afr/piby/piby18.htm
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2009, 01:11:30 AM »

That's from the "Holy Piby," right?  I know very little about these things.  How widely is it embraced by Rastas as being scripture?  Wasn't it written before the movement really was founded?  Do those who embrace it as scripture put it on the same level as the Bible?

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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2009, 01:23:01 AM »

That's from the "Holy Piby," right?  I know very little about these things.  How widely is it embraced by Rastas as being scripture?  Wasn't it written before the movement really was founded?  Do those who embrace it as scripture put it on the same level as the Bible?

It is certainly very popular among certain sections of Rastas (the Bobo Ashanti come to mind). Other sections probably have no idea it exists/have never read it. It was indeed written before formal organization of Rastafari began. Probably amongst those who consider it a holy text, it is probably placed on a similar level to Scripture...
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« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2009, 02:41:24 AM »

That's from the "Holy Piby," right?  I know very little about these things.  How widely is it embraced by Rastas as being scripture?  Wasn't it written before the movement really was founded?  Do those who embrace it as scripture put it on the same level as the Bible?

It is certainly very popular among certain sections of Rastas (the Bobo Ashanti come to mind). Other sections probably have no idea it exists/have never read it. It was indeed written before formal organization of Rastafari began. Probably amongst those who consider it a holy text, it is probably placed on a similar level to Scripture...

The Holy Piby (Athlyi Rogers) and The Promised Key (written by Leonard Howell) were both attempts to create an Afro-centric scriptural source that would be the ultimate guide for all Rastafarians. While these writings are respected amongst Rastas that are familiar with them, they have nevertheless failed to replace the authority and position of the Holy Bible amongst most Rastafarians. The Holy Bible (although admittedly interpreted very broadly and in sometimes in very unorhtodox ways) and the words of His Majesty Haile Selassie I remain the paramount sources of authority and guidance for Rastafarians. Of course it may be argued that the Gnostic influence is present in the Rastafarian belief that JAH (God) is inseparable from the Rasta individual, and thus speaks directly to and through that individual. For example, when I confronted a friend of mine who unapologetically worships Haile Selassie with Selassie's own words of Chrisitian affirmation, my friend simply responded by saying, "His Majesty has never told me this himself." To him, the words I read from Haile Selassie had probably been fabricated and erroneously attributed to him by white tricksters who wanted to keep Black people in ignorance about Haile Selassie's true divinity. So, you see, it is a tricky thing to try and argue with Rastafarians. The best thing to do is simply demonstrate a sincere heart and manifest Peace and Love. Act like Christ rather than preaching about Him, and you will be warmly received. 

Selam   
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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2009, 08:14:38 AM »

Isn't Islam something more than mix of Arianism and Judaism? I thought it evolved from native Arabic beliefs also.

Islam? Shocked

Quote
In pre-Islamic Arabia, gods or goddesses were viewed as protectors of individual tribes, their spirits being associated with sacred trees, stones, springs and wells. As well as being the site of an annual pilgrimage, the Kaaba shrine in Mecca housed 360 idol statues of tribal patron deities. Aside from these gods, the Arabs shared a common belief in a supreme deity called Allah (literally "the god"), who was remote from their everyday concerns and thus not the object of cult or ritual.

from wiki
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« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2009, 08:18:30 AM »

Islam? Shocked

Quote
In pre-Islamic Arabia, gods or goddesses were viewed as protectors of individual tribes, their spirits being associated with sacred trees, stones, springs and wells. As well as being the site of an annual pilgrimage, the Kaaba shrine in Mecca housed 360 idol statues of tribal patron deities. Aside from these gods, the Arabs shared a common belief in a supreme deity called Allah (literally "the god"), who was remote from their everyday concerns and thus not the object of cult or ritual.

from wiki

Mike, Isa's comment was to your "I like it now" that came at the end of the post about Islam.
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2009, 08:28:38 AM »

Mike, Isa's comment was to your "I like it now" that came at the end of the post about Islam.

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It was about 88Devin12's work which really impressed me and I cannot find any bugs now Smiley

I'm neither impressed by nor interested in Islam.
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2009, 12:52:00 PM »

Here is the chart as it is now...
I didn't continue the line for Samaritans because of the lack of space, also I read that there are only like 700 now so the movement is no longer as strong...

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« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2009, 03:58:11 PM »

AfaIk, Mormonism isn't arian. It's rather tritheistic.
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« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2009, 04:18:07 PM »

AfaIk, Mormonism isn't arian. It's rather tritheistic.

It is Arian in the sense that they believe "there was a time when the Son was not." That His being begotten from the Father took place in time.
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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2009, 08:54:47 PM »

Here is the chart as it is now...
I didn't continue the line for Samaritans because of the lack of space, also I read that there are only like 700 now so the movement is no longer as strong...

Both ancient Judaism and modern Judaism are more diverse than your chart shows:

1st Century Judaism:

1. Pharisees of the School of Hillel (survives today as modern Rabbinical Judaism)
2. Pharisees of the School of Shamai (destroyed in 70 CE)
3. Saducees (destroyed in 70 CE)
4. Essenes (destroyed at Bar Kocha rebellion)
5. Zealots (destroyed at Bar Kochba rebellion)
6. Nazarenes (sect of the Apostles, survives as Christianity)
7. Ebionites (survives today)
8. Samaritans (survive today)

For modern Rabbinical Judaism, the timeline goes like this:

Judaism -> Hillel Pharisees -> Rabbinical Judaism

An offshoot of Rabbinical Judaism is Karaite Judaism - "Solas Tanakh" Judaism which broke off at about the 10th century in Baghdad.

A note about the Ebionites (Evyonim):

These are (as they always were) Jews who believed that Yeshua was just a human Messiah (the source of Arianism?) who came to call all humanity to obey the Torah. Most reject the Virgin Birth, and all of them reject the NT except for some grossly distorted medieavel Hebrew translation of Matthew's Gospel (google "Shem Tov").

WRT Islam, note that the Quran calls Christians "Nazarenes". The only people that I know of that called themselves Nazarenes during Muhammad's time were the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ebionites. The Ebionites called themselves Nazarenes but they are not Nazarenes, they broke off from the Nazarenes by rejecting the teachings of the Apostle Paul. And they still call themselves Nazarenes (the outrage!) - http://www.netzarim.co.il/. Since Muhammad clearly rejected Messiah's divinity, crucifixion & resurrection, I think that the "Nazarenes" who taught him about Yeshua were actually Ebionites. And then years later Muhammad tried to "correct" the other "Nazarenes" he met (Assyrian Christians), by telling them not to call God a "Trinity" and not to call Yeshua the "Son of God".

So I suggest adding the Ebionites as an offshoot of early Christianity (the Nazarenes) and a link to Islam.
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« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2010, 09:13:23 AM »

From your graph:

What is west/east unitarianism as an offshoot of Orthodoxy? Were you trying to write the moderated term "Unia---*---ism". I understand some consider this slang, but I don't see anything necessarily bad about it, since it just means they united with Rome.

Second, I would not put Jehovah's Witness as protestant, since I heard from an Orthodox bogoslov they are Arian. Also, I am not sure whether Mormons are even theists in the conventional term. Finally, I would put Rastafarians as a chilian offshoot like Nestorians, Arians, and Orientals, because they all are distinguished from what we consider orthodox Christianity based on their definition of the nature of Christ.

Rastafarians are chilians because they pose a second (reincarnated) coming before His last coming.
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« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2010, 11:42:26 AM »

From your graph:

This is a really old thread and I don't want to have to read through the whole thing.  I scrolled through it, though, and I can't find a graph.  Could you be more specific about what graph you are referring to?

Quote
What is west/east unitarianism as an offshoot of Orthodoxy? Were you trying to write the moderated term "Unia---*---ism". I understand some consider this slang, but I don't see anything necessarily bad about it, since it just means they united with Rome.

I think I understand what term you are referring to here.  Please just know that some consider it offensive and that our rules forbid its use in the public fora.  That should be enough.  There are other, less offensive, words that can be used.

Quote
Finally, I would put Rastafarians as a chilian offshoot like Nestorians, Arians, and Orientals, because they all are distinguished from what we consider orthodox Christianity based on their definition of the nature of Christ.

I'm not sure whom you are referring to as "Orientals."  If you mean the Non-Chalcedonian Oriental Orthodox, the comment you made above would be more appropriate for the private forum, where we hold our more polemical conversations.
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« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2010, 02:53:43 PM »

Salpy!

Thanks for pointing this out. Indeed, I meant to post my reply on the thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21006.0.html

Would you please, as a moderator, be able to move it there?

Hal
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« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2010, 03:20:34 PM »

Not a problem.  Posts merged.
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2010, 08:58:17 PM »

Here is the chart as it is now...
I didn't continue the line for Samaritans because of the lack of space, also I read that there are only like 700 now so the movement is no longer as strong...

Both ancient Judaism and modern Judaism are more diverse than your chart shows:

1st Century Judaism:

1. Pharisees of the School of Hillel (survives today as modern Rabbinical Judaism)
2. Pharisees of the School of Shamai (destroyed in 70 CE)
3. Saducees (destroyed in 70 CE)
4. Essenes (destroyed at Bar Kocha rebellion)
5. Zealots (destroyed at Bar Kochba rebellion)
6. Nazarenes (sect of the Apostles, survives as Christianity)
7. Ebionites (survives today)
8. Samaritans (survive today)

For modern Rabbinical Judaism, the timeline goes like this:

Judaism -> Hillel Pharisees -> Rabbinical Judaism

An offshoot of Rabbinical Judaism is Karaite Judaism - "Solas Tanakh" Judaism which broke off at about the 10th century in Baghdad.

A note about the Ebionites (Evyonim):

These are (as they always were) Jews who believed that Yeshua was just a human Messiah (the source of Arianism?) who came to call all humanity to obey the Torah. Most reject the Virgin Birth, and all of them reject the NT except for some grossly distorted medieavel Hebrew translation of Matthew's Gospel (google "Shem Tov").

WRT Islam, note that the Quran calls Christians "Nazarenes". The only people that I know of that called themselves Nazarenes during Muhammad's time were the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ebionites. The Ebionites called themselves Nazarenes but they are not Nazarenes, they broke off from the Nazarenes by rejecting the teachings of the Apostle Paul. And they still call themselves Nazarenes (the outrage!) - http://www.netzarim.co.il/. Since Muhammad clearly rejected Messiah's divinity, crucifixion & resurrection, I think that the "Nazarenes" who taught him about Yeshua were actually Ebionites. And then years later Muhammad tried to "correct" the other "Nazarenes" he met (Assyrian Christians), by telling them not to call God a "Trinity" and not to call Yeshua the "Son of God".

So I suggest adding the Ebionites as an offshoot of early Christianity (the Nazarenes) and a link to Islam.


I think it is questionable whether the early Christians belonged to the Nazarene sect. I think that the Nazarenes rejected alcohol, but don't think Jesus did , among other things. I know some people posit it as a possibility that John the Baptist was one. But there were some hermits who just didnt belong to a sect- Fl. Josephus mentioned his own teacher like this.
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« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2010, 02:40:04 AM »

From your graph:

What is west/east unitarianism as an offshoot of Orthodoxy? Were you trying to write the moderated term "Unia---*---ism". I understand some consider this slang, but I don't see anything necessarily bad about it, since it just means they united with Rome.

Second, I would not put Jehovah's Witness as protestant, since I heard from an Orthodox bogoslov they are Arian. Also, I am not sure whether Mormons are even theists in the conventional term. Finally, I would put Rastafarians as a chilian offshoot like Nestorians, Arians, and Orientals, because they all are distinguished from what we consider orthodox Christianity based on their definition of the nature of Christ.

Rastafarians are chilians because they pose a second (reincarnated) coming before His last coming.

If you scrolled down, you would see there was an update form of the graph:

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« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2010, 08:03:56 AM »

You forgot the Zoroastrian (Indo-Iranian) influence.
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« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2010, 12:09:20 PM »

Zoroastrianism may be monotheist yet not be Abrahamic. That may be true of Aten worship in Egypt too.
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« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2010, 01:12:22 PM »

Zoroastrianism may be monotheist yet not be Abrahamic. That may be true of Aten worship in Egypt too.
Some Jews believe that several of Abraham's sons went East and became ancestors of the brahmin class (compare "brahmin" with "A-braham") of India, the hereditary possessors of the Vedas, sacred Hindu scriptures -- which, if true, would make Hinduism Abrahamic (and the Hindu priestly class and the Zoroastrian priestly class are obviously related). So, you never know. Grin

I don't think this is Orthodox doctrine, but perhaps a theologumen?
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« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2010, 03:06:39 PM »

Don't forget the Mandeans (a small group of them still exist in Iraq!) and the Manichaens.
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« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2010, 05:17:31 PM »

I think it is questionable whether the early Christians belonged to the Nazarene sect. I think that the Nazarenes rejected alcohol, but don't think Jesus did , among other things. I know some people posit it as a possibility that John the Baptist was one. But there were some hermits who just didnt belong to a sect- Fl. Josephus mentioned his own teacher like this.

You're confusing the Nazarenes with the Nazarites. "Nazarite" is not a sect, it's Jewish vow stipulated in the Torah, which some would voluntarily take for a period of time (eg: Paul), while others were "born into it", i.e. their parents vowed that they would be Nazarites for life (eg: Samson, Samuel & John the Baptist), usually because God commanded them to. In Acts the Jews of Jerusalem specifically call Paul the "ringleader" of the "Nazarene sect".

Don't forget the Mandeans (a small group of them still exist in Iraq!) and the Manichaens.

Ah yes the Gnostics.

Zoroastrianism may be monotheist yet not be Abrahamic. That may be true of Aten worship in Egypt too.
Some Jews believe that several of Abraham's sons went East and became ancestors of the brahmin class (compare "brahmin" with "A-braham") of India, the hereditary possessors of the Vedas, sacred Hindu scriptures -- which, if true, would make Hinduism Abrahamic (and the Hindu priestly class and the Zoroastrian priestly class are obviously related). So, you never know. Grin

I don't think this is Orthodox doctrine, but perhaps a theologumen?

This might be possible for Zoroastrinism but not for Hinduism as Krishna predates Abraham as far as I know.

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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2010, 06:17:01 PM »

Zoroastrianism may be monotheist yet not be Abrahamic. That may be true of Aten worship in Egypt too.
Some Jews believe that several of Abraham's sons went East and became ancestors of the brahmin class (compare "brahmin" with "A-braham") of India, the hereditary possessors of the Vedas, sacred Hindu scriptures -- which, if true, would make Hinduism Abrahamic (and the Hindu priestly class and the Zoroastrian priestly class are obviously related). So, you never know. Grin

I don't think this is Orthodox doctrine, but perhaps a theologumen?

This might be possible for Zoroastrinism but not for Hinduism as Krishna predates Abraham as far as I know.

True, Krishna is traditionally dated to 3100 BCE, and sometimes to c. 2000 BCE (around the time the Saraswati River dried up, and Krishna's city of Dwarka collapsed, all due to geological actvity in the Indus Valley).  But one can't discount the possibility that some of Abraham's sons went East and joined a previously existing Vedic culture, adding 'Abrahamic' elements in the process. Or, alternatively, the Vedic culture adopted the Abrahamic sons within their larger cultural milieu.
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2010, 01:09:29 AM »

I think it is questionable whether the early Christians belonged to the Nazarene sect. I think that the Nazarenes rejected alcohol, but don't think Jesus did , among other things. I know some people posit it as a possibility that John the Baptist was one. But there were some hermits who just didnt belong to a sect- Fl. Josephus mentioned his own teacher like this.

You're confusing the Nazarenes with the Nazarites. "Nazarite" is not a sect, it's Jewish vow stipulated in the Torah, which some would voluntarily take for a period of time (eg: Paul), while others were "born into it", i.e. their parents vowed that they would be Nazarites for life (eg: Samson, Samuel & John the Baptist), usually because God commanded them to. In Acts the Jews of Jerusalem specifically call Paul the "ringleader" of the "Nazarene sect".

I don't remember "Nazarenes", but makes sense. Peace.

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« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2010, 06:29:07 AM »

{Acts 24:5}  For we have found this man to be a plague, an instigator of insurrections among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

Beautiful song btw, thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2010, 01:18:20 PM »

And thank you for sharing with us.
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« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2010, 01:30:25 PM »

Always a pleasure, shalom Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2010, 07:50:53 PM »

Update:



Forgot to put a note that its not meant to be comprehensive or exhaustive.
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« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2010, 08:10:59 PM »

This is great!  Can you make a larger version available? Anti-aliasing makes the dates and events a little difficult to read (for me, at least).
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« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2010, 08:20:10 PM »

Full Size Image:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2954/churchtimelineoriginal.png
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« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2010, 10:53:09 PM »

Update:



Forgot to put a note that its not meant to be comprehensive or exhaustive.
You have to have the Monothelites>Maronites>Roman Catholic
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« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2010, 11:16:55 PM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

Bob Marley went from Rastafarianism to OOy, not the other way around.  Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2010, 11:30:43 PM »

Update:

Forgot to put a note that its not meant to be comprehensive or exhaustive.
You have to have the Monothelites>Maronites>Roman Catholic

huh?
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« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2010, 11:31:22 PM »

A few more ideas:

1. Eastern Catholics come not just from the EOC, but also the OOC, and the ACE.
2. It's spelled Sabellianism.
3. The Donatists are not mentioned, and I would imagine them to have been a much more prominent group than a number of these others you have listed.
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« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2010, 01:14:47 AM »

So why exactly are the Old Calendarists separated from the Church?  How exactly would retaining the Calendar that had been in use before the Church be constituted as changing Church doctrine?
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« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2010, 02:16:13 AM »

So why exactly are the Old Calendarists separated from the Church?  How exactly would retaining the Calendar that had been in use before the Church be constituted as changing Church doctrine?

Not all Old Calendarists are separated from the Church. But there are Old Calendarists that are in schism with the Church.
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« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2010, 07:58:16 AM »

Update:

Forgot to put a note that its not meant to be comprehensive or exhaustive.
You have to have the Monothelites>Maronites>Roman Catholic

huh?

The Maronites were Monothelites. They converted when they submitted to the Vatican.
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« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2010, 08:02:34 AM »

Ah, I had always thought the Rastafari religion had been an offshoot of OO. Maybe I just got it mixed up because of Bob Marley...

Bob Marley went from Rastafarianism to OOy, not the other way around.  Tongue

Yeah, Rastafarianism came from Protestantism. Some Rastas have gone OO.

On Bob Marley, you can see the front of his funeral service book here:
http://orthodoxhistory.org/tag/bob-marley/
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« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2010, 10:38:06 AM »

Not sure if/how the Yezigis or "devil appeasers" of Iraq would fit in. I can't remember what their history is. I think they come from gnosticism.
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« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »

So why exactly are the Old Calendarists separated from the Church?  How exactly would retaining the Calendar that had been in use before the Church be constituted as changing Church doctrine?

Not all Old Calendarists are separated from the Church. But there are Old Calendarists that are in schism with the Church.

Do you know which specific churches these are?  Thanks.
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« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2010, 02:24:56 PM »

Do you know which specific churches these are?  Thanks.

    * Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece, so-called "Matthewites"
    * Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece, so-called "Florinites"
    * Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance) [64], so-called "Cyprianites"
    * Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church [65]
    * Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church [66]
    * Russian Orthodox Church in America [67]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
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« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2010, 02:26:51 PM »

Latest version:


http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2954/churchtimelineoriginal.png
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« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2010, 08:00:43 PM »

So why exactly are the Old Calendarists separated from the Church?  How exactly would retaining the Calendar that had been in use before the Church be constituted as changing Church doctrine?

It's the other way around. Most of the Old Calendarists are separated from "World Orthodoxy" of their own initiative, believing that the New Calendarists have violated the proper canonical order of the Church, and thus it is wrong to be in communion with them or those who are in communion with them (mainstream EO on the Old Calendar).
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« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2010, 08:09:56 PM »

    * Russian Orthodox Church in America [67]

While the ROCIA is on the old calendar, I believe that they are not severed from communion over the calendar, but rather the autonomy/autocephaly of the "American Orthodox Catholic Church" (http://orthodoxwiki.org/American_Orthodox_Catholic_Church).
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« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2010, 11:58:35 PM »

To 88Devin12,

Just a couple of things... Your early chart says:

Quote
"Common belief is that the Church is the same as the Israel of the Old Covenants. However, when Christ came the Church was opened to the Gentiles."

The Church IS Israel. Scripture makes it clear that the Church founded by God Himself is the New Israel; the Israel of God. The faithful Israelites became Christians.

Those who rejected Him as the King of Israel became anti-Christs and are now known as 'Jews'.

The English word 'Gentiles' is a made-up word that has no basis in truth (just like the word 'Jew'). The word 'Gentiles' is derived from the Hebrew word 'Goyim' and means simply: Nations.

Non-Hebrews were always able to become Israelites through circumcision and keeping the Mosaic Law. Abraham himself was chosen from the Nations.

Also... There needs to be more divisions of so-called 'Judaism' - before and after Christ. The original Israelites followed the Mosaic Law. After the Babylonian captivity is when 'rabbinic Judaism' was born. When Christ came, he admonished the Judean Pharisees because they had basically eschewed the Mosaic Law for the 'traditions of men/traditions of the elders'.

The 'Judaism' of today is not the same as was the  faith of the O.T. Israelites. Nor is the 'Judaism' of today entirely the same as the Pharisaism of Christ's time (though it is directly descended from the Pharisaic 'traditions of men' which made the commandments of God of no effect)...

The so-called 'Judaism' of today is a reactionary, anti-Christ brand of Pharisaism which is based on the 'Oral Torah'; the Talmud (which todays 'Jews' just call 'Torah' to fool Christians into thinking that they just follow the Old Testament). Today's 'Judaism' is all based on and subservient to the Talmud and the rabbis.

The Talmud is anti-Christ, and was non-existent before the inception of Christianity. Hence, today's 'Judaism' is completely a reactionary cult based not on the Mosaic Law - but on the 'traditions of the elders'; the 'Oral Torah'... now immortalized in the anti-Christ Talmud. The main thing that makes a 'Jew' - a 'Jew' is their wholesale rejection of Jesus the Christ as the Messiah, the King of Israel.

The only exception today are the Karaites (however there are less than 100,000 Karaites worldwide, and mainstream 'Jewry' asserts that they are not really 'Jews'). What makes a Karaite a Karaite is the fact that they reject the Talmud. If any of today's 'Jews' are to be considered 'faithful' Old Testament 'Jews'.... it has to be the Karaites, for they adhere only to the Tanakh; the Written Law; the Written Torah; the Mosaic Law.

So the Karaites are the closest thing today to the O.T. Mosaic Israelites... while the so-called 'Jews' of today are closest to the N.T. Pharisees (who Christ admonished and denounced as "serpents, vipers and sons of the devil") whose 'traditions of men' have evolved into the anti-Christian 'Oral Torah'; the Talmud.

It's good that you have both Israel and the Church on the same boldened line... but I don't think they should be separated - for they are one and the same. I would present them this way:

"Israel/The Church"

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« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2010, 01:20:17 AM »

Thank you!

While I was making the Timeline for Western Christians... I noticed a few errors...
"Sack of Rome by Gauls" - 387 AD
Rome wasn't sacked until about 410 AD, and it was by the Visigoths, not the Gauls Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2010, 10:22:18 AM »

Thank you!

While I was making the Timeline for Western Christians... I noticed a few errors...
"Sack of Rome by Gauls" - 387 AD
Rome wasn't sacked until about 410 AD, and it was by the Visigoths, not the Gauls Smiley

It should be 387 BC.  Rome was sacked by the Gauls under Brennus after the Battle of the Allia.  But, for a Timeline of Western Christianity this might be a couple centuries too early  Wink.
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« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2010, 02:45:57 PM »

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« Reply #85 on: July 28, 2012, 05:55:21 PM »

So where do the Pastafarians fit in?

Many Rastafarians view themselves to be one of the lost tribes of Israel. Some view themselves as the true Israelites. But since Rastafari encompasses a wide set of beliefs, it would be hard to pin down as to what its' specific roots are. But undoubtedly it has its roots in Judaic Faith, and culminates in unique Christian interpretations revolving around Haile Selassie and Ethiopia. Here is my brief chronolgy of its evolution:

-Garden of Eden is in Ethiopia/Africa(Genesis 2:13), thus "Black" man was original man.
-Old Testament Patriarchs and Prophets
-Judaic Law
-Solomon and the Queen of Sheba
-Ark of Covenant comes to Ethiopia
-European enslavement and colonization of Africans for around 400 years parallels Israelite's enslavement in Egypt for 400 years.
-Marcus Garvey (Black Jamaican Catholic radical)prophesies that an African King will arise to liberate Africans at home and abroad.
-Prince Ras Tafari of Ethiopia is crowned by his Orthodox Christian baptismal name "Haile Selassie" which means "Power of the Holy Trinity."
-Many Black people in Jamaica see this historical event as the fulfillment of Marcus Garvey's prophecy. The Rastafarian movement is born when many begin to interpret Haile Selassie's name as evidence of fulfillment of the prophecy of Revelation 5:5.
-Rastafarians begin to proclaim Haile Selassie as Christ in His second coming. They hold to the Levitical law as much as possible, and take the Nazarite vow (thus their dreadlocks and beards, their vegetarian diet, their avoidance of alcohol, and their shunning of tattoos etc.)
-Haile Selassie learns that some people in Jamaica are worshiping him. He is deeply grieved by this and therefore sends Archbishop Yesehaq to Jamaica to teach the true and ancient Orthodox Christian Faith. Many Rastafarians are baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
-A Rastafarian named Dr. Vernon Carrington, AKA "Prophet Gad," begins to teach that Haile Seassie is not Christ, but that he represents Christ in His "kingly character." Dr. Carrington starts the "12 Tribes House of Ratafari" which is based on the proper worship of the true Christ of the Holy Bible. Haile Selassie is revered but not worshipped by the 12 Tribes. Prophet Gad teaches that "a chapter a day (of the Bible) keeps the devil away." Today the 12 Tribes comprises the largest group of Rastafarians in the world, many of whom are members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Bob Marley was part of the 12 Tribes.  

OK. That is VERY brief, but I hope it helps.

Selam
European enslavement and colonization of Africans, but no mention of Arab/Muslim enslavement and colonization of Africans.  That's just racist.  Since the latter enslavement and colonization is ongoing, what would it parallel?
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« Reply #86 on: July 28, 2012, 08:33:10 PM »

Pretty sure there was no "0 AD"   Wink
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« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2012, 09:19:58 AM »

Pretty sure there was no "0 AD"   Wink

You're correct. 1 BC was followed by 1 AD in both the Julian & Gregorian Calendars.

~~~
Also, don't the Karaites consider themselves to be the descendants of the Sadducees? Or is this just something somebody told me due to certain similarities in their beliefs?
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« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2012, 10:26:17 AM »

I would add Yezidi to the tree, although it's so obscure I doubt anyone has really heard of it.
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« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2012, 03:22:58 PM »

I would add Yezidi to the tree, although it's so obscure I doubt anyone has really heard of it.
Might as well add Zoroastrianiam while you're at it.
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« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2012, 03:35:05 PM »

don't the Karaites consider themselves to be the descendants of the Sadducees? Or is this just something somebody told me due to certain similarities in their beliefs?

There are some similarities (both groups believe in Torah Only) however Karaites emerged several hundreds of years after Sadducees had disappeared. There is no direct connection.
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« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2012, 03:51:37 PM »

I would add Yezidi to the tree, although it's so obscure I doubt anyone has really heard of it.
Might as well add Zoroastrianiam while you're at it.

Well, I just added them because they do, at least, believe in the Abrahamic God, even if most of their worship centers around the peacock "angel" Melek Taus.
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« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2012, 04:05:05 PM »

I would add Yezidi to the tree, although it's so obscure I doubt anyone has really heard of it.
Might as well add Zoroastrianiam while you're at it.

Well, I just added them because they do, at least, believe in the Abrahamic God, even if most of their worship centers around the peacock "angel" Melek Taus.
According to 2nd Chronicles 36:23:

“Thus says Cyrus, king of Persia: ‘All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD, the God of heaven, has given to me, and he has also charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever, therefore, among you belongs to any part of his people, let him go up, and may his God be with him!’”

Cyrus the Great was most likely a Zoroastrian, and yet according to the text above the author of Chronicles also saw him as someone who believed in the God of heaven, the God of Moses. One possibility was that the author thought that Cyrus was Jewish; but there is no evidence that he was Jewish. Another possibility, which I consider to be much more likely, was that the author viewed Cyrus's God (Ahura Mazda) to really be the Jewish God, though perhaps the Zoroastrians were off a little in their theology and so forth.

In Isaiah 45, Cyrus is called God's "anointed', or "moshiach" ("messiah"), partly because of Cyrus aiding the Jewish return to Jerusalem and rebuilding the Temple.
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« Reply #93 on: December 31, 2012, 08:55:08 PM »

I would add Yezidi to the tree, although it's so obscure I doubt anyone has really heard of it.
Might as well add Zoroastrianiam while you're at it.

Well, I just added them because they do, at least, believe in the Abrahamic God, even if most of their worship centers around the peacock "angel" Melek Taus.
According to 2nd Chronicles 36:23:

“Thus says Cyrus, king of Persia: ‘All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD, the God of heaven, has given to me, and he has also charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever, therefore, among you belongs to any part of his people, let him go up, and may his God be with him!’”

Cyrus the Great was most likely a Zoroastrian, and yet according to the text above the author of Chronicles also saw him as someone who believed in the God of heaven, the God of Moses. One possibility was that the author thought that Cyrus was Jewish; but there is no evidence that he was Jewish. Another possibility, which I consider to be much more likely, was that the author viewed Cyrus's God (Ahura Mazda) to really be the Jewish God, though perhaps the Zoroastrians were off a little in their theology and so forth.
Jetavan,

I think this is an interesting issue or problem you bring up. There is also a part in the Old Testament where it describes Pharaoh the Lame talking about Israel's God with reverence before the Pharaoh defeated and killed King Josiah. Normally, one would not expect this, because the Egyptians believed in a multiplicity of gods, none of which were named Jehovah/Yahweh. Not to mention the fact that the pharaoh in Moses' time was against Moses' God.

(The fact that Cyrus was called anointed, though, doesn't mean he believed in God though, because Nebechudnezzar was called that too, and the idea was that God chose (ie anointed) him for a mission, not that the person believed.)

Nonetheless, I am not sure the Zoroastrians followed the Abrahamic God, just because they were monotheists: this could have been the Chronicler's own interpretation. Their monotheism could have come from a source independent of Abraham, I think.

Another point: I think there is a mention that the Israelites' neighbors thought Israel's god was punishing them. I could be wrong about that. But being polytheists, they could have thought Israel's god was real, they just didn't focus on him. After all, among Israelites, there was occasional polytheism that included worship to Jehovah along with Baal and idol worship. That being he case, Cyrus or others could have acknowledged Jehovah, without actually focusing on him in an Abrahamic and monotheist way.
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« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2012, 11:28:59 PM »

Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

Don't start that crap again.

Quote
From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.

You mean how there is no uniformity in the OO Churches and how most of them have varying beliefs amongst each other?--even if they are formally considered together.
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« Reply #95 on: December 31, 2012, 11:32:22 PM »

Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

Don't start that crap again.

Again? That post was from 2009...
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« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2012, 11:33:28 PM »

Quote
From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.
You mean how there is no uniformity in the OO Churches and how most of them have varying beliefs amongst each other?--even if they are formally considered together.
You mean they're just like the EO?
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« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2012, 11:35:24 PM »

Again? That post was from 2009...

You know, this is the only forum I've been on where there are no rules (as far as I'm aware) against resurrecting old threads.

And almost every day on here I'm reminded why they do. laugh
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« Reply #98 on: December 31, 2012, 11:44:08 PM »

Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.

Can understand why that nice, though somewhat strict, Ethiopian in Melbourne said to me, "Only the Oriental Orthodox are Christian."

Was pleased nonetheless to hear less strict views when this one wasn't about though Cool

Exactly.  These charts pretty much give "ah ha's" to those it works for.  Ebionites were not even included.  Roman Catholics would stick themselves on the "main line".

Plus I could make a chart showing where "Orthodoxy" changed, and make marks from that.  Old believers would show how everything came off of them and how modern Orthodoxy "broke tradition" from the way of old belief.

Sorry, charts are just kind of loaded/propaganda.

Basically I look at them like a teacher who walks in on a room of 1st graders all yelling "nanny nanny boo boo, I was here first".   Except, there are 20 kids, all that have history that proves it.
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« Reply #99 on: December 31, 2012, 11:49:13 PM »

Exactly.  These charts pretty much give "ah ha's" to those it works for.  Ebionites were not even included.  Roman Catholics would stick themselves on the "main line".

Plus I could make a chart showing where "Orthodoxy" changed, and make marks from that.  Old believers would show how everything came off of them and how modern Orthodoxy "broke tradition" from the way of old belief.

Sorry, charts are just kind of loaded/propaganda.
I think the chart was meant to show a traditional EO perspective - not an 'objective' perspective. Look at the title of the thread - "according to Orthodox."
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« Reply #100 on: December 31, 2012, 11:54:11 PM »

Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

Don't start that crap again.

Quote
From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.

You mean how there is no uniformity in the OO Churches and how most of them have varying beliefs amongst each other?--even if they are formally considered together.

We are uniform in our basic faith, but diverse in our liturgy and other practices.  This diversity is something the EO's used to have until relatively recently, if I understand correctly.  Lockstep uniformity did not exist in early Christianity, and I am rather glad that the OO's have not given in to that trend, which had its origins in the West.  A lot of EO's here have expressed a desire to one day see local liturgical traditions revived, and I hope that happens.
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« Reply #101 on: January 01, 2013, 10:14:56 AM »

You know, this is the only forum I've been on where there are no rules (as far as I'm aware) against resurrecting old threads.

You are not mistaken.
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« Reply #102 on: January 01, 2013, 10:24:59 AM »

Interesting that every group on your chart except for Oriental Orthodox Christianity has groups breaking away from it.

Don't start that crap again.

Quote
From an OO perspective, it would be very easy to produce a chart showing how all groups which break away from us end up breaking into pieces themselves.

You mean how there is no uniformity in the OO Churches and how most of them have varying beliefs amongst each other?--even if they are formally considered together.

Care to substantiate these claims?
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« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2013, 05:43:46 PM »

I would add Yezidi to the tree, although it's so obscure I doubt anyone has really heard of it.
Might as well add Zoroastrianiam while you're at it.

Zoroastrians don't believe in the God of Abraham. True they believe in one deity, but not the God of Abraham. They are a clearly distinct monotheistic religion outside of the Abrahamic tradition. The Yezidi, as best as I'm aware, broke away from the the Zoroastrians (whilst adding some Mithraic beliefs) as much as the followers Zurvan.

You know, this is the only forum I've been on where there are no rules (as far as I'm aware) against resurrecting old threads.

You are not mistaken.

Which is fabulous as it means one can always come back to a conversation should one think of something to say a while later?  Cool
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« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2014, 05:27:35 PM »

Going down the Tree.
Once you accept Christianity, you have to ask whether you are going to recognize Messianic Christianity or only what we consider the Church.

The first main problem with the Messianics is that they are separate from the Orthodox Church. That is, we are not in communion.

A second problem is that typically they follow Protestant theology. This is not always the case as there are "Hebrew Catholics". But there are few who follow Orthodox theology, although a small number. There is a modern "Nazarene" group, one of whose members was here.

The third main problem is the issue of whether Jewish Christians should follow a different set of rituals and rules than other Christians. One may tend to see it as problematic in that we are to be one in Christ. It's true that women are supposed to wear veils and stand on opposite sides of the church (especially in conservative ones), and we have gender based monasteries. Women cannot be priests, etc. But unlike sex-based divisions, today we have come to reject distinctions based on race. In terms of spirituality, worth, and salvation, Christians are Abraham's sons, for Paul. To deny this would go against the Council of Jerusalem which was the apostle James' decision.

I think the New Testament does not say Jews should or should not practice different rituals than other Christians. So for me it is a small question. However, Christ did give an example of disregarding Mosaic rituals like the idea of ritual cleanliness, which went against touching the sick. In Peter's vision God told him that eating anything was not unclean. I think Paul's idea of disregarding the ritual rules, putting grace instead of law, was not something he made up but what he learned from the other apostles.

So I have to go with the Church based on the three reasons above,
although it might be helpful if someone could show me something more on point from the Old Testament or gospels showing that Jewish Christians should no longer do separate rituals.

As for the Arians and Nestorians, I wonder if the differences were really just semantic.

As for the Oriental Orthodox,
I have trouble seeing whether the issue of Christ's natures rises to the level of heresy if both the Church and the OOs see Him as human and divine.

The Church's Chalcedon Council made a normal statement that Christ is in two natures or sets of properties and the OOs misinterpreted that two mean by extension that he is in two people. However if the 5th Council practically anathematized(?) Cyril's idea that Christ's nature was of two natures, how can I accept either the EO or OO positions? Would that make me a Chalcedonian nonConstantinople II-ian? At least I go farther with the EOs (the 4th Council). Granted, the 5th Council banned "saying" one nature, not thinking it.

Moving along, assuming there is such a thing as apostolic succession, what about the Roman Catholics?

I have a hard time accepting that the guilt of personal sin is passed down. Also I am pretty skeptical about purgatory.

What about a nondenominational vagante group? Couldn't I find one that actually has the right theology, perfect ideas and customs (theoretically speaking), but just doesn't happen to be in apostolic succession?

I guess. Certainly the one with it is better.
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« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2014, 07:30:03 PM »

Mormonism is not a break-off from Protestantism. I'd say its beginnings are similar to Islam. A guy came along and created his own religion from a mix of Protestantism, Arianism, and paganism. It's its own religion.
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« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2014, 07:33:35 PM »

Mormonism is not a break-off from Protestantism. I'd say its beginnings are similar to Islam. A guy came along and created his own religion from a mix of Protestantism, Arianism, and paganism....
...and Kabbalah.
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« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2014, 08:03:47 PM »

Mormonism is not a break-off from Protestantism. I'd say its beginnings are similar to Islam. A guy came along and created his own religion from a mix of Protestantism, Arianism, and paganism. It's its own religion.

Mormonism is construed as part of the Restorationist movements of the mid 19th century, including Campbellism.   One might go so far as to include Adventism and its offshoots (SDA, JWs, etc) in this milieu. 
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« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2014, 08:11:31 PM »

Mormonism is not a break-off from Protestantism. I'd say its beginnings are similar to Islam. A guy came along and created his own religion from a mix of Protestantism, Arianism, and paganism. It's its own religion.

Mormonism is construed as part of the Restorationist movements of the mid 19th century, including Campbellism.   One might go so far as to include Adventism and its offshoots (SDA, JWs, etc) in this milieu. 
True, but Mormon theology is far more 'radical' than that of Adventism or even the JWs.
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« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2014, 08:15:43 PM »

Mormonism is not a break-off from Protestantism. I'd say its beginnings are similar to Islam. A guy came along and created his own religion from a mix of Protestantism, Arianism, and paganism. It's its own religion.

Mormonism is construed as part of the Restorationist movements of the mid 19th century, including Campbellism.   One might go so far as to include Adventism and its offshoots (SDA, JWs, etc) in this milieu. 
True, but Mormon theology is far more 'radical' than that of Adventism or even the JWs.

No debate there.  Just saying that he got his idea of Restoring the church from the myriad groups around him who were trying to do the same in western NY.  Then he joined his penchant for treasure hunting and found some golden plates that told him how to do it.  Then he later came up with an apostolic visitation to confer apostolic succession on himself and made a nice little story out of it all. 

But I think it took Brigham Young and his doctrine of Eternal Progression to really take it to the next level. 

Ironically he came close - what he really describes is theosis with the essence, rather than the energies, of God.  I wonder if he had any clue about that or if he got that close to actual truth by taking a stab in the dark. 
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« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2014, 02:25:47 AM »

88Devin12,

We now know through archaeology that monotheism is older than polytheism. Sixteen thousand clay tablets dated to the third millennium B.C. were found in Ebla Syria. They are known as the Ebla tablets. Not only do these tablets speak of one supreme God, but they also make reference to Adam, Eve, and Noah. The Ebla tablets contain the old known creation account outside the Bible, and as I said, speak of one God. The Ebla tablets pre-date the Babylonian account by 600 years. The creation account in the Ebla tablets is similar to the creation account in Genesis. The tablets also speak of creation from nothing.

For more information with listed references, see, "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," (page 208), by Norman Geisler.
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