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Author Topic: Living Together and Not Being Married...?  (Read 10781 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2009, 02:35:42 PM »

So, so far I've learned from a  number of posters that I'm engaged in EVIL and propagating evil, that I am not Christian,
We are all sinners, bro.  And I hope you didn't get the impression that I don't think you're a Christian?  I apologize if that's the way it came out.

that my experiences are bunk because the Church trumps experience to the contrary of Church teaching,
You didn't present it as a unique experience that required special consideration; you stated that you wouldn't consider marrying anyone unless you first lived with them.  

and that I am a horrible example for anyone reading this forum because it might give them the wrong idea about Orthodoxy.
We're probably all, at some time or another, horrible examples to present as being Orthodox; I know I've been there and will probably be again.  But does that mean we shouldn't give pastoral advice to consider?
 
Aren't there bigger battles to fight? I've seen more vehemence toward my living arrangement on this forum than towards the situation in Darfur.  Roll Eyes
I must have missed the part where we were discussing the situation in Darfur.  Smiley
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« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2009, 02:37:16 PM »


Okay...enough already!  Both sides!

Bogoliubtsy gave an honest answer, and inadvertently posted too much information.

Now, let's not gang up on him, because he's getting all defensive and this is getting nobody anywhere fast.

He's not evil.  He is, however, living in "sin".  This sin he alone has to deal with.  It's up to him and God to work this out.  Nowhere is Bogoliubtsy stating that this is NOT a sin, just that he realizes what he is doing and that's that.

We all have our sins to deal with...and a sin is a sin, no matter how large or small....and yes, Bogoliubtsy, it IS a sin.  Remember, when Christ told those who are without sin to cast the first stone?  This was aimed at the woman which was caught having unmarried "relations".  When he turned to her he told her that her SINS were forgiven, and that she should sin no more.  Therefore, it is a sin.  However, God may forgive all.  I would confess this sin before starting anew with a happy married life.

As for the rest....I can hear many stones dropping.....

So, we will pray for our brother Bogoliubtsy, and for all of us sinners, that God should forgive us all, our many sins....and may He grant Bogoliubtsy a happy, joyous life together with his lovely bride, in two months time!

Lord have mercy on us all!



I understand where you come from. And I don't mean to gang up on the guy. But the idea that living together makes for a stronger marriage is a farce. As well- he is not like the woman in this story unless the woman in the story said; "So what! You don't know enough about me to determine how i should deal with my love life!"

If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.
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« Reply #92 on: April 28, 2009, 02:38:03 PM »

So, so far I've learned from a  number of posters that I'm engaged in EVIL and propagating evil, that I am not Christian,
We are all sinners, bro.  And I hope you didn't get the impression that I don't think you're a Christian?  I apologize if that's the way it came out.

that my experiences are bunk because the Church trumps experience to the contrary of Church teaching,
You didn't present it as a unique experience that required special consideration; you stated that you wouldn't consider marrying anyone unless you first lived with them.  

and that I am a horrible example for anyone reading this forum because it might give them the wrong idea about Orthodoxy.
We're probably all, at some time or another, horrible examples to present as being Orthodox; I know I've been there and will probably be again.  But does that mean we shouldn't give pastoral advice to consider?
 
Aren't there bigger battles to fight? I've seen more vehemence toward my living arrangement on this forum than towards the situation in Darfur.  Roll Eyes
I must have missed the part where we were discussing the situation in Darfur.  Smiley

All points taken.  Smiley
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« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2009, 02:39:25 PM »

I thought scholasticism was dead.
Alive and kicking. But if you don't like my understanding of evil then ask some one in your own communion how the EO understand good and evil.
So, so far I've learned from a  number of posters that I'm engaged in EVIL
No on this thread has called you evil.
and propagating evil,
That may be true. But only if you understand evil actions as those actions that are immoral or unethical.
that I am not Christian,

I don't know of anyone who has said that on this thread. Are you sure you're not just jumping to conclusions?
that my experiences are bunk because the Church trumps experience  to the contrary of Church teaching,

Wells since your experiences are subjective and the teaching of the Church are objective, you need to interperate your experience through the objective lense of the Church. This does not mean that your experiences are not valuable.
to the contrary of Church teaching, and that I am a horrible example for anyone reading this forum because it might give them the wrong idea about Orthodoxy.
No one said that you are a "horrible" example. However, if you are leading others to sin, are you being a good example? I mean, you said that cohabitating was not the best thing. Is that the example you want to give?
Aren't there bigger battles to fight? I've seen more vehemence toward my living arrangement on this forum than towards the situation in Darfur.  Roll Eyes
Well first, your exageration about the responses on this forum is just silly. No one has said you are a bad person. No one has said you are unchristian. However, if you continue to teach that something that is evil is good, then you will opposed on those grounds.
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« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2009, 02:42:03 PM »

I thought scholasticism was dead.
Alive and kicking. But if you don't like my understanding of evil then ask some one in your own communion how the EO understand good and evil.
So, so far I've learned from a  number of posters that I'm engaged in EVIL
No on this thread has called you evil.
and propagating evil,
That may be true. But only if you understand evil actions as those actions that are immoral or unethical.
that I am not Christian,

I don't know of anyone who has said that on this thread. Are you sure you're not just jumping to conclusions?
that my experiences are bunk because the Church trumps experience  to the contrary of Church teaching,

Wells since your experiences are subjective and the teaching of the Church are objective, you need to interperate your experience through the objective lense of the Church. This does not mean that your experiences are not valuable.
to the contrary of Church teaching, and that I am a horrible example for anyone reading this forum because it might give them the wrong idea about Orthodoxy.
No one said that you are a "horrible" example. However, if you are leading others to sin, are you being a good example? I mean, you said that cohabitating was not the best thing. Is that the example you want to give?
Aren't there bigger battles to fight? I've seen more vehemence toward my living arrangement on this forum than towards the situation in Darfur.  Roll Eyes
Well first, your exageration about the responses on this forum is just silly. No one has said you are a bad person. No one has said you are unchristian. However, if you continue to teach that something that is evil is good, then you will opposed on those grounds.

Theopholis wondered if I am Christian.
As for the teachings of the Church being objective- to which Church are you referring? 
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« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2009, 02:42:32 PM »


If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.


Exactly.
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« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2009, 02:42:58 PM »


Okay...enough already!  Both sides!

Bogoliubtsy gave an honest answer, and inadvertently posted too much information.

Now, let's not gang up on him, because he's getting all defensive and this is getting nobody anywhere fast.

He's not evil.  He is, however, living in "sin".  This sin he alone has to deal with.  It's up to him and God to work this out.  Nowhere is Bogoliubtsy stating that this is NOT a sin, just that he realizes what he is doing and that's that.

We all have our sins to deal with...and a sin is a sin, no matter how large or small....and yes, Bogoliubtsy, it IS a sin.  Remember, when Christ told those who are without sin to cast the first stone?  This was aimed at the woman which was caught having unmarried "relations".  When he turned to her he told her that her SINS were forgiven, and that she should sin no more.  Therefore, it is a sin.  However, God may forgive all.  I would confess this sin before starting anew with a happy married life.

As for the rest....I can hear many stones dropping.....

So, we will pray for our brother Bogoliubtsy, and for all of us sinners, that God should forgive us all, our many sins....and may He grant Bogoliubtsy a happy, joyous life together with his lovely bride, in two months time!

Lord have mercy on us all!



I understand where you come from. And I don't mean to gang up on the guy. But the idea that living together makes for a stronger marriage is a farce. As well- he is not like the woman in this story unless the woman in the story said; "So what! You don't know enough about me to determine how i should deal with my love life!"

If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.
But should a person who claims to be an Orthodox Christian who is purposely living a life that is contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church approach the chalice? Should that person be propogating his beliefs? Does this not cause scandal?
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« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2009, 02:43:41 PM »


If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.


Exactly.
But if you live a life contrary to the teachigns of the Church, are you really being Orthodox? Should such a person approach the chalice?
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« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2009, 02:44:47 PM »


If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.


Exactly.
But if you live a life contrary to the teachigns of the Church, are you really being Orthodox? Should such a person approach the chalice?

Such a person is not approaching the chalice. This is where I end with the personal stories.  Smiley

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« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2009, 02:46:24 PM »


If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.


Exactly.
But if you live a life contrary to the teachigns of the Church, are you really being Orthodox? Should such a person approach the chalice?

Such a person is not approaching the chalice.
I see. Well it is wonderful that you are respecting the Holy Eucharist in that way. But do you want to continue to separated from the Body and Blood of Christ?
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« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2009, 02:47:26 PM »


- he is not like the woman in this story unless the woman in the story said; "So what! You don't know enough about me to determine how i should deal with my love life!"

If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.

Well, he IS like the woman as far as proving the point that unmarried cohabitation IS a sin.  I used this an example to show him that it IS a sin, because Bogoliubtsy was not convinced of that fact.

So, what more does one need to prove it's a sin, than the Master's own words?

Now, Bogoliubtsy, it's up to you to realize that and proceed accordingly.  One should not be proud of sinning.  If one sins, and cannot help themselves, then one must try harder.   However, don't propagate sin as an accepted state.

It's not.




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« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2009, 02:51:51 PM »


- he is not like the woman in this story unless the woman in the story said; "So what! You don't know enough about me to determine how i should deal with my love life!"

If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.

Well, he IS like the woman as far as proving the point that unmarried cohabitation IS a sin.  I used this an example to show him that it IS a sin, because Bogoliubtsy was not convinced of that fact.

So, what more does one need to prove it's a sin, than the Master's own words?

Now, Bogoliubtsy, it's up to you to realize that and proceed accordingly.  One should not be proud of sinning.  If one sins, and cannot help themselves, then one must try harder.   However, don't propagate sin as an accepted state.

It's not.





I have to say, even though I disagree with anyone cohabitating, I understand how hard it is to pull one's self out of such a situation. The entire time that I lived in that situation, I loved my partner soooooo much and could not imagine living without this person. It took some pretty traumatic events to get me out of that situaton.
That all being said, it does not change the fact that I knew and know that cohabitating was and is sinful.
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« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2009, 02:54:39 PM »


- he is not like the woman in this story unless the woman in the story said; "So what! You don't know enough about me to determine how i should deal with my love life!"

If he doesn't believe that what he is doing is wrong there is no point in confessing it before marriage.

Well, he IS like the woman as far as proving the point that unmarried cohabitation IS a sin.  I used this an example to show him that it IS a sin, because Bogoliubtsy was not convinced of that fact.

So, what more does one need to prove it's a sin, than the Master's own words?

Now, Bogoliubtsy, it's up to you to realize that and proceed accordingly.  One should not be proud of sinning.  If one sins, and cannot help themselves, then one must try harder.   However, don't propagate sin as an accepted state.

It's not.






Are you saying that it is a sin to live under the same roof as your partner while unmarried, or that it is a sin to have pre-marital sex?
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« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2009, 02:55:39 PM »

Well, the issue isn't entirely co-habitation so much as premarital sex. And one can be waist deep in that particular sin and NOT live together. My husband is the first man that I ever dated that I didn't have sex with. He was actually a virgin when we met. We decided together that we would wait to have sex until we married. We dated three LLLLOOOOONNNNGGGGGG years and waited. That is to say that simply because you have had sex in the past doesn't mean that each relationship is soiled by the previous ones sins unless you allow it to be.
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« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2009, 02:57:38 PM »

My sister tried to say that she and her boyfriend would wait until they were married (they had been having sex but decided that they needed to get married and wanted to wait from the engagement to the wedding to have sex) but "had to" live together for economic reasons. Needless to say they DID have sex (she told me). The sexual temptation only increases with proximity as well as when something is "taboo."
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« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2009, 03:13:23 PM »

My sister tried to say that she and her boyfriend would wait until they were married (they had been having sex but decided that they needed to get married and wanted to wait from the engagement to the wedding to have sex) but "had to" live together for economic reasons. Needless to say they DID have sex (she told me). The sexual temptation only increases with proximity as well as when something is "taboo."
And temptation increases when you have the privacy that often comes with living together.
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« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2009, 03:17:45 PM »

Well, the issue isn't entirely co-habitation so much as premarital sex. And one can be waist deep in that particular sin and NOT live together. My husband is the first man that I ever dated that I didn't have sex with. He was actually a virgin when we met. We decided together that we would wait to have sex until we married. We dated three LLLLOOOOONNNNGGGGGG years and waited.
How long you married now?  Studies show a conection.
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« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2009, 03:22:31 PM »

This new years eve will be 13 years of marriage and 16 years together.


And yes, when you look at my profile you will see I am only 30. I met my husband at 15- I was already out of high school and had had quite a few sexual relationships (even one that lasted over a year) by then. I was virtually living as an emancipated minor- worked to support myself ect.  I won't go into how many sexual relationships I had had by that point. But I will say I had been pregnant and miscarried already by the time we met. My husband was 20 and a gigging/working musician when we met, which makes the fact that he was still a virgin nearly miraculous.
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« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2009, 03:25:30 PM »

This new years eve will be 13 years of marriage and 16 years together.


I noticed you're 30. So you were 17 when you married?
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« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2009, 03:28:45 PM »

My birthday is this summer, just a couple days before my due date with baby #4. If the baby is born on time I will be 30 with 4 kids for about a week! Eeek! I was 15 when we met and 18 when we wed. And since it is New years eve that we met and new years eve three years later that we wed it makes it even more confusing.
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« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2009, 03:46:33 PM »

And please don't use the "your young" line of reasoning to discount all that I say. Most marriages of longer than ours haven't been thru half of what my husband and I have been thru with deployments and such. At any age having two year+ long deployments in 4 years is exceedingly difficult, most people are divorced by now.
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« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2009, 03:50:16 PM »

And please don't use the "your young" line of reasoning to discount all that I say. Most marriages haven't been thru half of what my husband and I have been thru with deployments and such. At any age- having two year+ long deployments in 4 years most people are divorced by now.

Who, me? We're the same age.

I will say though that avoiding pre-marital sex is a bit easier if you get married as a teenager.
With two year deployments though...geesh. Good work.  Smiley
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« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2009, 03:53:09 PM »

Wow, I'm glad I missed this thread.  Stone casting is apparently not dead.

Bogo, apparently you're causing scandal... I wonder where I've heard that before:

(All references KJV from bible.com)
Quote from: The Bible

Matt 9:11 & Mark 2:16 & Luke 5:30 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Point: just because something appears to be off doesn't mean that it is (It looks scandalous?  It may not be!), and even if it is off, it's better to pray for the person and work on your own issues first (You know, that whole log in the eye thing?).  If anyone here reaches theosis (or already has), please I BEG YOU go and help Bogo for a little bit, and then stop over here for a few weeks to work with my wife and me.
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« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2009, 03:54:41 PM »

With two year deployments though...geesh. Good work.  Smiley

Adding to the point - they were/are two different year+ long deployments, adding up to more than two years of active duty in the span of 4 years.
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« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2009, 03:57:14 PM »

Let's not forget that this situation is not exclusive to young adults. Middle aged and older adults are also increasingly cohabiting for a variety of reasons, such as:

-marrying would cause a significant problem among one or both of the couple's child(ren);
-marrying would affect their Social Security or retirement benefits (naturally, I'm only speaking of the US); or
-marrying would require new legal burdens such as updating wills, real estate deeds, etc.

So we cannot just assume that this problem is present only among the young. I used to regularly visit a home for older adults, and in talking with the residents I really think  just as much if not more is going on there than in a dorm.

In the past, I have had to recommend that if the temptation is too great, maybe the couple should consider not living together, but even then that's not a guarantee of non-intimate conduct between the two. Ultimately it resides with what is important to the couple, and where they draw the line in their own lives. We can only pray that their behavior leads to their salvation, and that the Lord have mercy on us all.

Fr Chris,

In such situations is it possible to marry people ecclesiastically without a civil marriage? 
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« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2009, 03:57:26 PM »

And please don't use the "your young" line of reasoning to discount all that I say. Most marriages haven't been thru half of what my husband and I have been thru with deployments and such. At any age- having two year+ long deployments in 4 years most people are divorced by now.

Who, me? We're the same age.

I will say though that avoiding pre-marital sex is a bit easier if you get married as a teenager.
With two year deployments though...geesh. Good work.  Smiley

I get a lot of people discounting everything I say because of my age. I didn't mean to seem snappy, if you felt I was being rude in how I phrased that I apologize. At first people said we were still married because we are "young" although now that my husband is 36 he doesn't get that much Wink (he turned 21 a couple months after I met him at 15. So he is about 5.5 years older than me)

But I will say that the sexual temptation/thoughts were harder and easier to different degrees the three years we dated than they have been with deployments. And from personal experience- sex outside marriage and sex within marriage are entirely different animals. Sex outside marriage is more of a build up and release- more hormonal I would say. Sex within marriage is a form of communication that is vital. It isn't something that I can describe. But there is a distinct difference in how sex is approached (on an emotional level especially) when it is only in the context of marriage as opposed to when it started outside marriage.
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« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2009, 04:05:05 PM »

And please don't use the "your young" line of reasoning to discount all that I say. Most marriages haven't been thru half of what my husband and I have been thru with deployments and such. At any age- having two year+ long deployments in 4 years most people are divorced by now.

Who, me? We're the same age.

I will say though that avoiding pre-marital sex is a bit easier if you get married as a teenager.
With two year deployments though...geesh. Good work.  Smiley

I get a lot of people discounting everything I say because of my age. I didn't mean to seem snappy, if you felt I was being rude in how I phrased that I apologize. At first people said we were still married because we are "young" although now that my husband is 36 he doesn't get that much Wink (he turned 21 a couple months after I met him at 15. So he is about 5.5 years older than me)

Well, that age difference adds a legal element to the decision to refrain from pre-marital relations...or at least it should have.
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« Reply #117 on: April 28, 2009, 04:07:04 PM »

And please don't use the "your young" line of reasoning to discount all that I say. Most marriages haven't been thru half of what my husband and I have been thru with deployments and such. At any age- having two year+ long deployments in 4 years most people are divorced by now.

Who, me? We're the same age.

I will say though that avoiding pre-marital sex is a bit easier if you get married as a teenager.
With two year deployments though...geesh. Good work.  Smiley

I get a lot of people discounting everything I say because of my age. I didn't mean to seem snappy, if you felt I was being rude in how I phrased that I apologize. At first people said we were still married because we are "young" although now that my husband is 36 he doesn't get that much Wink (he turned 21 a couple months after I met him at 15. So he is about 5.5 years older than me)

Well, that age difference adds a legal element to the decision to refrain from pre-marital relations...or at least it should have.

Not really since I had dated (and had sex with) guys older than him by that point Wink And I was essentially an emancipated minor when we met. I was basically a street kid, the last thing law enforcement would have been worried about was my sex life (or lack thereof).
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« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2009, 04:37:09 PM »

Wow, I'm glad I missed this thread.  Stone casting is apparently not dead.

Bogo, apparently you're causing scandal... I wonder where I've heard that before:

(All references KJV from bible.com)
Quote from: The Bible

Matt 9:11 & Mark 2:16 & Luke 5:30 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Point: just because something appears to be off doesn't mean that it is (It looks scandalous?  It may not be!), and even if it is off, it's better to pray for the person and work on your own issues first (You know, that whole log in the eye thing?).  If anyone here reaches theosis (or already has), please I BEG YOU go and help Bogo for a little bit, and then stop over here for a few weeks to work with my wife and me.
St. Paul says that we should avoid causing scandal for the sake of the weeker breathern. In your example Jesus was not doing something sinful by eating with these people. However, we do know that cohabitation is sinful. There is a diference.
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« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2009, 04:49:06 PM »

Bogoliubtsy, I wish you the best as you look forward to many happy years of marriage together, as God grants.

Reading all this only makes me so wistful for the customs of the church of my youth when I too was looking forward with such anticipation to having a boyfriend, marrying and starting a family. In that church nobody lived together or even had sex before marriage. It was a given that all approached the marriage altar as virgins. Needless to say, everyone looked forward to marriage with a great deal of anticipation!

It's brought me much sadness upon leaving that world to realize that there is almost no one who will share my ideals or who will have waited years to be able to meet someone and marry. Almost nowhere can you find someone who has also saved themselves for their future husband/wife simply out of love,respect and honour for that person. I guess I never even saw pre-marital sex as an option for the christian.

I've learned that very few men in the world are really trustworthy and with these attitudes towards sex and women, there is almost no sense of security for women,and that it really cheapens human beings when they live in this manner.

If only people would be thankful for the very fact that they have someone who cares for them and wants to marry them, and would be grateful, and wait patiently for that wonderful day when they can come together as husband and wife!

Bogoliubsty, I am not speaking directly to you, just rambling sadly to myself here.
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« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2009, 05:01:50 PM »

St. Paul says that we should avoid causing scandal for the sake of the weeker breathern. In your example Jesus was not doing something sinful by eating with these people. However, we do know that cohabitation is sinful. There is a diference.

The prohibition is against causing scandal; scandal is (in the scripture and the canons) the appearance of sin, regardless of actual sinful activity.  Jesus wasn't sinning; but He was causing scandal (a recurring theme in His ministry - working on the Sabbath, touching those ritually unclean, etc.)... however, in His case, it was scandal for the "stronger" brethren (whom, I would argue, would be analogous to those pontificating here, since they seem to have a strong enough "grasp" on Christian morality and the boldness to teach others based on that knowledge) not the weaker, which is why St. Paul's argument didn't work against the Master of All.  You don't actually know if Bogo is sinning or not, you just know that he is in a situation that appears to be sinful, or has the increased potential to be so.  In cases like these, it would be best to just offer support, hopeful suggestion, and prayer.  Like, I don't know:

Let's not forget that this situation is not exclusive to young adults. Middle aged and older adults are also increasingly cohabiting for a variety of reasons, such as:

-marrying would cause a significant problem among one or both of the couple's child(ren);
-marrying would affect their Social Security or retirement benefits (naturally, I'm only speaking of the US); or
-marrying would require new legal burdens such as updating wills, real estate deeds, etc.

So we cannot just assume that this problem is present only among the young. I used to regularly visit a home for older adults, and in talking with the residents I really think  just as much if not more is going on there than in a dorm.

In the past, I have had to recommend that if the temptation is too great, maybe the couple should consider not living together, but even then that's not a guarantee of non-intimate conduct between the two. Ultimately it resides with what is important to the couple, and where they draw the line in their own lives. We can only pray that their behavior leads to their salvation, and that the Lord have mercy on us all.

No judgment, just caution and hopeful optimism, and the prayer for salvation.

If he is causing scandal to the strong (like people here), then no thought should be given to it.  If he causes scandal to the weak, that is an issue between him and his Maker; I am sure (based on his comments) that he is doing his best not to scandalize anyone who can't handle it.

We should probably move on, and focus more on our own spiritual problems.

Just for the sake of beating my point home (same source as above):
Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2009, 05:28:07 PM »

^Amen  Smiley

For a bit more clarification- I entered this situation at a time when I had close to zero faith. That situation has only slightly improved in some respects. Still, knowing that I was to be married I decided to stay with this living arrangement. You can all rest easy in July when it becomes officially sanctioned.
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« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2009, 06:46:54 PM »


Personally, I think most of us would have a hard time of it finding an Orthodox bishop to approve this "arrangement".

Well, apart from Saint Basil the Great.  In one of his canons he gives the advice that it may be better for the Church to leave a cohabitating couple together rather than insist on their separation and perhaps cause them to fall into other sin.  Like several of Saint Basil's canons, even though adopted by an Ecumenical Council, this one can cause a bishop to hesitate to apply it.
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« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2009, 06:51:55 PM »

Bogoliubtsy,

Sexual intimacy was meant to serve as glue between a husband and a wife. It is thought that a certain degree of physical-emotional intimacy or "shared space" prior to marriage will inhibit the efficacy of the two to give themselves wholly to each other after marriage if there is a prior breakup.  I can find no absolute rule on this in the OT or NT; it's about responsible risk management and pastoral deference at this point.
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« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2009, 07:03:28 PM »

Wow, I'm glad I missed this thread.  Stone casting is apparently not dead.

Bogo, apparently you're causing scandal... I wonder where I've heard that before:

(All references KJV from bible.com)
Quote from: The Bible

Matt 9:11 & Mark 2:16 & Luke 5:30 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Matt 11:19 & Luke 7:34 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Matt 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Point: just because something appears to be off doesn't mean that it is (It looks scandalous?  It may not be!), and even if it is off, it's better to pray for the person and work on your own issues first (You know, that whole log in the eye thing?).  If anyone here reaches theosis (or already has), please I BEG YOU go and help Bogo for a little bit, and then stop over here for a few weeks to work with my wife and me.

Amen to your reply..... Finally a reality check to all of us...

I personally find it very difficult to point out other people's faults in their personal struggles when I am in it to my neck trying to control my own passions.

Lord Have Mercy

 
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« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2009, 07:27:47 PM »

St. Paul says that we should avoid causing scandal for the sake of the weeker breathern. In your example Jesus was not doing something sinful by eating with these people. However, we do know that cohabitation is sinful. There is a diference.

You're right.  I think Bogoliubtsy ought to be waterboarded until he repents.  The Spanish Inquisition had the right idea. 
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« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2009, 08:20:40 PM »

St. Paul says that we should avoid causing scandal for the sake of the weeker breathern. In your example Jesus was not doing something sinful by eating with these people. However, we do know that cohabitation is sinful. There is a diference.

You're right.  I think Bogoliubtsy ought to be waterboarded until he repents.  The Spanish Inquisition had the right idea. 
Well, I am of Spancish descent.
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« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2009, 09:26:22 PM »


Personally, I think most of us would have a hard time of it finding an Orthodox bishop to approve this "arrangement".

Well, apart from Saint Basil the Great.  In one of his canons he gives the advice that it may be better for the Church to leave a cohabitating couple together rather than insist on their separation and perhaps cause them to fall into other sin.  Like several of Saint Basil's canons, even though adopted by an Ecumenical Council, this one can cause a bishop to hesitate to apply it.

I'd definitely want to see the exact canon at some point.
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« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2009, 09:54:41 PM »

ST. BASIL'S CANONS ON COHABITATION

XXII. Men who keep women carried off by violence, if they carried them off when betrothed to other men, must not be received before removal of the women and their restoration to those to whom they were first contracted, whether they wish to receive them, or to separate from them. In the case of a girl who has been taken when not betrothed, she ought first to be removed, and restored to her own people, and handed over to the will of her own people whether parents, or brothers, or any one having authority over her. If they choose to give her up, the cohabitation may stand; but, if they refuse, no violence should be used. In the case of a man having a wife by seduction, be it secret or by violence, he must be held guilty of fornication. The punishment of fornicators is fixed at four years. In the first year they must be expelled from prayer, and weep at the door of the church; in the second they may be received to sermon; in the third to penance; in the fourth to standing with the people, while they are withheld from the oblation. Finally, they may be admitted to the communion of the good gift.

XXVI. Fornication is not wedlock, nor yet the beginning of wedlock. Wherefore it is best, if possible, to put asunder those who are united in fornication. If they are set on cohabitation, let them admit the penalty of fornication. Let them be allowed to live together, lest a worse thing happen.

XXXVIII. Girls who follow against their fathers' will commit fornication; but if their fathers are reconciled to them, the act seems to admit of a remedy. They are not however immediately restored to communion, but are to be punished for three years.

XL. The woman who yields to a man against her master's will commits fornication; but if afterwards she accepts free marriage, she marries. The former case is fornication; the latter marriage. The covenants of persons who are not independent have no validity.

XLII. Marriages contracted without the permission of those in authority, are fornication. If neither father nor master be living the contracting parties are free from blame; just as if the authorities assent to the cohabitation, it assumes the fixity of marriage.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202199.htm
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« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2009, 11:03:46 PM »

Very interesting. You learn something every day.  Smiley
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« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2009, 11:14:31 PM »

Indeed, fascinating stuff! I had no idea...
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« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2009, 06:23:29 PM »

Let's not forget that this situation is not exclusive to young adults. Middle aged and older adults are also increasingly cohabiting for a variety of reasons, such as:

-marrying would cause a significant problem among one or both of the couple's child(ren);
-marrying would affect their Social Security or retirement benefits (naturally, I'm only speaking of the US); or
-marrying would require new legal burdens such as updating wills, real estate deeds, etc.

So we cannot just assume that this problem is present only among the young. I used to regularly visit a home for older adults, and in talking with the residents I really think  just as much if not more is going on there than in a dorm.

In the past, I have had to recommend that if the temptation is too great, maybe the couple should consider not living together, but even then that's not a guarantee of non-intimate conduct between the two. Ultimately it resides with what is important to the couple, and where they draw the line in their own lives. We can only pray that their behavior leads to their salvation, and that the Lord have mercy on us all.

So then what you are saying then is that the pastoral sensibilities take more weight than some scriptural perspectives, spiritual issues and wisdom of the fathers?  Seems like a hard sell Father...
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« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2009, 10:21:08 PM »

Probably my final post:

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

Many years to you both!
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« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2009, 11:29:10 PM »

Let's not forget that this situation is not exclusive to young adults. Middle aged and older adults are also increasingly cohabiting for a variety of reasons, such as:

-marrying would cause a significant problem among one or both of the couple's child(ren);
-marrying would affect their Social Security or retirement benefits (naturally, I'm only speaking of the US); or
-marrying would require new legal burdens such as updating wills, real estate deeds, etc.

So we cannot just assume that this problem is present only among the young. I used to regularly visit a home for older adults, and in talking with the residents I really think  just as much if not more is going on there than in a dorm.

In the past, I have had to recommend that if the temptation is too great, maybe the couple should consider not living together, but even then that's not a guarantee of non-intimate conduct between the two. Ultimately it resides with what is important to the couple, and where they draw the line in their own lives. We can only pray that their behavior leads to their salvation, and that the Lord have mercy on us all.

So then what you are saying then is that the pastoral sensibilities take more weight than some scriptural perspectives, spiritual issues and wisdom of the fathers?  Seems like a hard sell Father...

If you want to be a Fisher of Men, it's probably not a good idea to attach flashing lights and bells and whistles to your net to scare the fish away. The net should be barely visible in the water so the fish don't notice it.
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« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2009, 11:38:56 PM »

So then what you are saying then is that the pastoral sensibilities take more weight than some scriptural perspectives, spiritual issues and wisdom of the fathers?  Seems like a hard sell Father...

Well, he's not trying to sell "premarital sex," so it shouldn't be that difficult.
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