Author Topic: Discussion on Ecumenism  (Read 35567 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #360 on: July 14, 2011, 02:21:46 PM »
So, the consensus: Grammarians, not to be trusted?

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #361 on: July 14, 2011, 02:25:18 PM »
Well St Severus also disagreed with Sergius the Grammarian, who was a non-Chacledonian but with incorrect ideas.

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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #362 on: July 14, 2011, 02:33:10 PM »
Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.
So... should I? I just want to get advice from more experienced posters on OC.net so I don't look like a complete fool for asking him prematurely. But, I assume 'one month' means 'one month'. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions.
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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #363 on: July 14, 2011, 02:34:43 PM »
Well St Severus also disagreed with Sergius the Grammarian, who was a non-Chacledonian but with incorrect ideas.


Ah yes, I think I remember him. Wasn't he the non-Chalcedonian who refused to confess the difference/distinction of Christ's divinity and humanity, thus mixing the two together (I.e. Eutychian heresy).
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:36:06 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #364 on: July 14, 2011, 02:35:40 PM »
Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.
So... should I? I just want to get advice from more experienced posters on OC.net so I don't look like a complete fool for asking him prematurely. But, I assume 'one month' means 'one month'. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions.

I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #365 on: July 14, 2011, 02:37:37 PM »
I wouldn't want to call Sergius the Grammarian a Eutychian, not least because Eutyches didn't say anything like that.

He was a bit out of his depth though, Sergius and Eutyches to be honest. And he was in error.

The letters between St Severus and Sergius are in English and you can purchase them. The translation is very good. It's by Iain Torrance.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #366 on: July 14, 2011, 02:46:14 PM »
St Severus writes against the Grammarian in one of his major works - Severi Antiocheni liber contra impium Grammaticum

If John of Damascus used him as his source for information about the non-Chalcedonians then he was in error in doing so.
Not quite: as Lang points out, John the Grammarian remained popular among the non-Chalcedonian Syrian Orthodox for a century after St. John of Damascus' repose.  As has been pointed out
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4996.msg65100.html#msg65100
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21382.msg323267.html#msg323267
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37678.msg597072.html#msg597072
the Armenian Church chose Julian of Halicarnassus over Pat. Severus, causing a breach with the non-Chalcedonian Syrian (and Coptic?)Orthodox until the Council of Manzikert in 726 (and apparently keeping Severus off the Armenian Calendar).
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37678.msg597072.html#msg597072
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=29494.0
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=4996.0
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13141.msg280292.html#msg280292

This is interesting, as it is stated that the Emperor Justianian took to Julianism, and deposed the EP St. Eutychus (who had presided over the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and opposed Julianism and the  Aphthartodocetae) and replaced him with EP St. John Scholasticus, but the emperor died before he could promote Julianism. EP St. John thereupon forged an understanding with the non-Chalcedonians (at least some of them) in 567, briefly reuniting the Church in 571.  I wonder what Julian and Philoponus did to the dynamic between St. John of Damascus and Pat. Severus via the media of the nascent EO and OO.


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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #367 on: July 14, 2011, 02:47:37 PM »
I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.
Putting the disturbing sarcasm aside, do you think I should ask or not?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:55:07 PM by Severian »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #368 on: July 14, 2011, 02:48:29 PM »
Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.
Ask... seek...knock....Someone said that. :D
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #369 on: July 14, 2011, 02:51:22 PM »
So, the consensus: Grammarians, not to be trusted?
Seems like since the nineth century, we've agreed to that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #370 on: July 14, 2011, 02:52:37 PM »
I wouldn't want to call Sergius the Grammarian a Eutychian, not least because Eutyches didn't say anything like that.

He was a bit out of his depth though, Sergius and Eutyches to be honest. And he was in error.

The letters between St Severus and Sergius are in English and you can purchase them. The translation is very good. It's by Iain Torrance.
I do realize that there really is no evidence Eutyches really said anything like that. When I speak of "the Eutychian heresy" I am referring to the heresy attributed (falsely?) to him. Eutyches was probably just a confused old man who had no idea what he was talking about. I read that he was hesitant to confess that Christ's humanity was consubstantial with man and yet he confessed him to be "perfect God and perfect man" (for reasons I am not ignorant of).
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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #371 on: July 14, 2011, 02:54:23 PM »
Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.
Ask... seek...knock....Someone said that. :D
Well, I can't disagree with scripture, so I'll try. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm refused, though.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 02:54:32 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #372 on: July 14, 2011, 02:59:55 PM »
I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.
Putting the disturbing sarcasm aside, do you think I should ask or not?
Entangled threads
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24367.45.html
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #373 on: July 14, 2011, 03:09:59 PM »
Well, I asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if I am refused, but anyway...  :-\
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #374 on: July 14, 2011, 03:22:26 PM »
If it means anything, I am not an ecumenist. I believe that the Church should hold dialogues with schismatics, if anything, just to introduce them to the Orthodox faith and try to bring them back to the fold, but I don't truly expect to reunite with them. The only group I think the Church can unite with without compromising her faith is the Eastern Orthodox Church. She (the EOC) is the only church outside the canonical boundaries of the OOC whose sacraments I recognize. I pray for all schisms to end, but, if we were to reunite with the Protestants and the Latins, they will have to submit themselves to the Orthodox faith. The EOC has faithfully maintained the correct faith despite her schism from the OOC. And it is for that reason I don't mind my hierarchs communing EOs who approach an OO chalice. If I am being arrogant or rude I am sorry. I really am trying to present my view of things as respectfully as I can.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:33:02 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #375 on: July 14, 2011, 03:46:50 PM »
I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.
Putting the disturbing sarcasm aside, do you think I should ask or not?

I never saw the 1 Month warning so I asked at 11 days.  FrChris showed up at my house but no one was home, so he just gave me access.   ;)  Just be polite and respectful and you should be fine, though from the looks of it this is already your habit.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #376 on: July 14, 2011, 03:51:37 PM »
Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.
So... should I? I just want to get advice from more experienced posters on OC.net so I don't look like a complete fool for asking him prematurely. But, I assume 'one month' means 'one month'. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions.

I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.

 :laugh:
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #377 on: July 14, 2011, 03:53:01 PM »
Eutyches was probably just a confused old man who had no idea what he was talking about.

 :laugh:
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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #378 on: July 14, 2011, 03:53:36 PM »
I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.
Putting the disturbing sarcasm aside, do you think I should ask or not?

I never saw the 1 Month warning so I asked at 11 days.  FrChris showed up at my house but no one was home, so he just gave me access.   ;)  Just be polite and respectful and you should be fine, though from the looks of it this is already your habit.
Why, thank you. I do try to be as polite as possible.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #379 on: July 14, 2011, 04:29:51 PM »
Well, I asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if I am refused, but anyway...  :-\
Don't worry about it. You can't possibly make yourself look like more of a fool than I have.
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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #380 on: July 14, 2011, 04:34:49 PM »
Well, I asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if I am refused, but anyway...  :-\
Don't worry about it. You can't possibly make yourself look like more of a fool than I have.
Thanks for your kind words of reassurance. But trust me, both on the internet and in real life, I make a complete fool out of myself, lol.  :laugh:

Thanks again,
Severian
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #381 on: July 14, 2011, 05:39:01 PM »
What were "Grammarians?"  Were they people who taught grammar to kids in school?  Did they write books about grammar?  If you were a Grammarian, what did you do for a living?

Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #382 on: July 14, 2011, 05:42:43 PM »
What were "Grammarians?"  Were they people who taught grammar to kids in school?  Did they write books about grammar?  If you were a Grammarian, what did you do for a living?
Good question actually...

The word grammarian usually describes a grammar teacher. But I'm not sure if Sergius or John fit these descriptions.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 05:49:28 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Offline FrChris

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #383 on: July 14, 2011, 06:47:11 PM »
Does anyone think I should just ask FrChris permission to access the private fora even though I haven't even been here for two weeks? I guess it couldn't hurt to try.
So... should I? I just want to get advice from more experienced posters on OC.net so I don't look like a complete fool for asking him prematurely. But, I assume 'one month' means 'one month'. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions.

I heard a story about someone who was here 3 weeks and asked FrChris to join the private fora. FrChris showed up at his house and murdered his entire family.

How did you hear about that event? I thought all the witnesses had 'disappeared'.... ;)
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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #384 on: July 14, 2011, 06:51:11 PM »
Well, I asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if I am refused, but anyway...  :-\

Well, it is a bit early, but based on your previous posts (very well constructed, displaying examples of thought as well as courtesy)....I'm going to take the chance you will continue in that mode.

You have access to the Private Forums. Use this access for good, and not evil.  :)
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #385 on: July 14, 2011, 07:00:57 PM »
Well, I asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if I am refused, but anyway...  :-\

Well, it is a bit early, but based on your previous posts (very well constructed, displaying examples of thought as well as courtesy)....I'm going to take the chance you will continue in that mode.

You have access to the Private Forums. Use this access for good, and not evil.  :)

I had a feeling you would accept him.  :)
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Offline Severian

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #386 on: July 14, 2011, 07:24:06 PM »
Well, I asked him. I wouldn't be surprised if I am refused, but anyway...  :-\

Well, it is a bit early, but based on your previous posts (very well constructed, displaying examples of thought as well as courtesy)....I'm going to take the chance you will continue in that mode.

You have access to the Private Forums. Use this access for good, and not evil.  :)
Thanks FrChris.

God bless,
Severian
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Offline CoptoGeek

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #387 on: August 24, 2011, 10:44:24 AM »
I think I remember St Severus of Antioch condemning John the Grammarian, so we don't follow him. But, one of my posts was moved to the private forum and the moderator of this board, Micha Kalina, was nice enough to warn me without actually placing a green warning label on my account. With that considered, Isa, if you would like to contine this discussion with me let's do it via PMs. I want to respect the moderator's decision.

I think the John the Grammarian that St. Severus wrote against was the Chalcedonian John of Caesarea not John Philoponus.

Quote
About the time that Severus was returning to Maiuma from Constantinople in 511, a presbyter and grammarian, John of Caesarea, composed an Apology for the Synod of Chalcedon (CPG 6855), demonstrating a more structured approach to the topic than that found in Nephalius’s work of the same name. Like Nephalius, John was motivated by the neo-Chalcedonian movement; in particular his aim was to reconcile Severus and his party to the Council of Chalcedon, using Cyril as the basis for argument. John’s work is mostly lost to us, but its argument can largely be reconstructed from Severus’s rebuttal of it, provocatively entitled Against the Impious Grammarian, which does not survive complete.

SEVERUS OF ANTIOCH, Pauline Allen and C.T.R.Hayward, Routledge 2004
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 10:54:50 AM by CoptoGeek »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Discussion on Ecumenism
« Reply #388 on: September 20, 2011, 12:37:19 PM »
Some of John the Grammarian's writings seem to have been recently found and analyzed, particularly lectures against Manichaeanism:

http://oxfordpatristics.blogspot.com/2011/04/byard-bennett-john-grammarians-first.html


Quote
Byard Bennett, “John the Grammarian’s First and Second Homilies against the Manichaeans: An Early Sixth-Century Christian Neoplatonist on the Problem of Evil”
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.