OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 25, 2014, 05:04:21 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: A record of Pilate’s condemnation of Jesus  (Read 4110 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Apostolos
Protopentekaidekarchos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Posts: 344



« on: April 26, 2009, 01:48:10 PM »

According to the Byzantine booklet "The prophesies of Agathangelus and other documents" (which was very popular in the late Byzantine years), in 1309 was found in the town of l'Aquilla (central Italy) an inscription in Latin that seemed to be an official (?) record of Pilate's condemnation of Jesus.
In 1381 this inscription was taken to Constantinople and it was translated into Greek by the Ecumenical Patriarch Dionysius in 1643. Unfortunately the Latin inscription is lost. Here is the Greek translation:
"Τῷ ἑβδόμῳ καὶ δεκάτῳ Τιβερίου Καίσαρος, Βασιλέως Ῥωμαίων, Μονάρχου ἀνικήτου, Ὀλυμπιάδος διακοσιοστῆς πρώτης, Ἡλιάδος ὀγδόης ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου, κατά τὸν ἡμέτερον μερισμόν τῶν Ἑβραίων τετράκισχίλια καὶ ἑκατόν ἑβδομήκοντα τέσσερα ἔτη καὶ καταβολῆς τῶν Ῥωμαίων βασιλείας ἔτη ἑβδομήκοντα τρία καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ἐλευθερίας τῆς δουλείας Βαβυλῶνος ἔτη πεντακόσια ἑβδομήκοντα καὶ καταστροφῆς τοῦ ἱεροῦ βασιλείου ἔτη ἐννενήκοντα καὶ ἑπτά, ἐπί ὑπάτου τοῦ λαοῦ τῶν Ῥωμαίων Λουκίου Σιζωνίου καὶ Μάρκου Συννίου καὶ ἀνθυπάτου του Ἰλλυρικοῦ Παλιστέρα, κοινοῦ διοικητοῦ τῆς χώρας τῶν Ἰουδαίων Κουίντου Φλαβίου, ἐπὶ τῆς διοικήσεως Ἰερουσαλήμ ἡγεμόνος κρατίστου Ποντίου Πιλάτου, ἐπιστάτου τῆς Κάτω Γαλιλαίας Ἡρώδου τοῦ Ἀντιπάτρου, τῆς ἄκρας ἀρχιερωσύνης Ἄννα καὶ Καϊάφα Ἀλιάσου καὶ Μαεὶλ μεγίστων εἰς τὸν Ναόν, Ραμπάν, Ἀμαμπέλ, Γιοκένου ἑκατοντάρχου ὑπάτου Ρωμαίων τῆς πόλεως Ἱερουσαλήμ Σουμπιμασάξιου Ποπιλίου Ρούφου.
Ἐγὼ ὁ Πόντιος Πιλᾶτος, ἡγεμών διὰ τῆς βασιλείας τῶν Ῥωμαίων, ἐπί τοῦ Πραιτωρίου τῆς ἀρχιηγεμονίας, κρίνω καὶ κατακρίνω καὶ καταψηφίζω εἰς θάνατον σταυρικόν τὸν Ἰησοῦ τὸν λεγόμενον Ναζωραῖον, καὶ ἀπό πατρίδος Γαλιλαίας, κατὰ τοῦ Μωσαϊκοῦ νόμου καὶ ἐναντίον τοῦ μεγαλοπρεποῦς βασιλέως Ῥωμαίων Τιβερίου Καίσαρος καὶ ὁρίζω καὶ ἀποφαίνομαι τὸν θάνατον αὐτοῦ σταυρικόν μετὰ τῶν ἄλλων κατὰ τὸ συνῆθες τῶν καταδίκων, ἐπεὶ συνοίθρησεν αὐτός πλῆθος ἀνθρώπων πλουσίων καὶ πτωχῶν, οὐκ ἔπαυσε θορύβους ἐγείρων, ἐνοχλεῖν τὴν Ἰουδαίαν ποιῶν ἑαυτόν Υἱόν Θεοῦ καὶ βασιλέα τῆς Ἱερουσαλήμ, ἀπειλών φθοράν τῆς Ἱερουσαλήμ καὶ τοῦ Ἱεροῦ Ναοῦ, ἀπαρνούμενος τὸν φόρον τοῦ Καίσαρος καὶ τολμήσας εἰσελθεῖν μετά βαΐων θριαμβευτής καὶ πλείστου ὄχλου ὥσπὲρ τις Ῥὲξ ἐντός τῆς πόλεως Ἱερουσαλήμ εἰς τὸν Ἱερόν Ναόν.
Καὶ διορίζομεν τὸν ἡμέτερον πρῶτον ἑκατόνταρχον Κουΐντον Κορνήλιον περιαγαγεῖν τοῦτον παρρησίᾳ εἰς τὴν χῶραν Ἱερουσαλήμ δεδεμένον, μαστιζόμενον καὶ
ἐνδεδυμένον πορφύραν, ἐστεφανωμένον ἀκανθίνῳ στεφάνῳ καὶ βαστάζοντα τὸν ἴδιον Σταυρὸν ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ, ἵνα ᾗ παράδειγμα τοῖς ἄλλοις καὶ πᾶσι τοῖς κακοποιοῖς μεθ᾿ οὗ βούλομαι συνάγεσθαι δυὸ ληστᾶς φονεῖς καὶ ἐξέρχεσθαι διὰ τῆς πύλης Γιαμπαρόλας, τῆς νῦν Ἀντωνιανῆς.
Ἀναχθῆναι δὲ αὐτὸν τὸν Χριστὸν παρρησία ἐπὶ τὸ ὄρος τῶν κακούργων, ὀνόματι Καλβάριον, οὕτινος σταυρωθέντος καὶ θανατωθέντος μεῖναι τὸ σῶμα ἐν τῷ Σταυρῷ εἰς κοινὸν θεώρημα πάντων τῶν κακούργων, καὶ ἄνω Σταυροῦ τίτλον τεθῆναι γεγραμμένον τρισὶ γλώσσαις, τόν:
"Ἰεσοῦα Ἀλόν Ἰλές Ἰοδᾶμ" (Ἑβραϊστί)
"Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος Βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων" (Ἑλληνιστί)
"Ἰέζους Ναζαρένους Ῥὲξ Ἰουδαιόρουμ" (Ρωμαϊστί).
Ὁρίζομεν οὖν μηδένα τῶν ἠστινοσοῦν τάξεως καὶ ποιότητος τολμῆσαι ἀπερισκέπτως τὴν τοιαύτην ἐμποδίσαι δίκην, ὡς ὑπ᾿ ἐμοῦ ὡρισμένην μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος εἰς ποινὴν τῆς αὐτομολίας τούτου, Ἑβραίου ὄντος, κατὰ τὰ ψηφίσματα καὶ τοὺς νόμους τῆς τῶν Ρωμαίων Βασιλείας.

Μάρτυρες τῆς ἡμετέρας ἀποφάσεως:
Ἀπὸ τῆς φυλῆς τοῦ Ἰσραήλ: Ρωάμ, Δανιήλ, Ραμπινήλ, Ἰοακείν, Μπανικάν, Ροτάμ, Ἰουταβὲλ καὶ Περικουλάμ.
Ἀπὸ τῆς Βασιλείας καὶ ἡγεμονίας Ρωμαίων: Λούκιος, Σεξτίλος καὶ Μαξιμίλιος.
Ἀπὸ τῶν Φαρισαίων: Μπαρμπάς, Συμεὼν καὶ Μονέλη.
Ἀπὸ τῶν Ὑπάτων καὶ δικαστῶν τῶν Ρωμαίων: Ραμπάν, Μαντάνης καὶ Μπακαρόλας.
Ἀπὸ τῆς Ἀρχιερωσύνης: Ρωάν, Ἰουάδους καὶ Μπουκασόλης.
Νομικὸς Δημόσιος ἐπὶ τῶν Ἐγκλημάτων τῶν Ἑβραίων: Μπουτάν".

The same record in English:

"In the 17th year of Tiberius Caesar, King of the Romans, invincible monarch, the 201st Olympiad, 8th Heliad, the 4174th year since the Creation according to the Hebrew reckoning, the 73rd year since the establishment of the Kingdom in Rome, the 580th year since the liberation from Babylon, and the 97th year since the destruction of the Holy Kingdom, at the time of Roman Proconsuls Lucius Sizonius and Marcus Sinnius and Illyrian Procurator Palistera;
in the days of the Procurator of Judea Quintus Flavius, and administrator of Jerusalem gratistus Pontius Pilatus and overlord of lower Galilee Herod Antipater, with Annas and Caiaphas High Priests and Temple Priests Aliasus and Maeel and Temple officers Raban and Amabel, and centurion Ioctenus, and chief Roman officer of the city of Jerusalem Subimasaxius Popilius Rufus:

I Pontius Pilatus, on behalf of the Kingdom of the Romans, on the Praetorium of supreme authority, hereby judge and condemn to death by crucifixion one Jesus the Nazarene from the country of Galilee, a rebel against the Law of Moses and against the Glorious King of the Romans Tiberius Caesar. I decide and rule explicitly his death by crucifixion, as customary for all the condemned: because he gathered crowds of people, both rich and poor, has not ceased to cause tumult and to disturb Judea, proclaiming himself God and King of Jerusalem, threatening destruction of Jerusalem and of the Holy Temple, refusing to pay tax to Caesar, and dared enter the city of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple with great crowds and palms of victory like a king. We hence assign our first centurion Quintus Cornelius to circulate him around the city for all citizens of Jerusalem to see, being flogged, dressed in purple robe, and crowned with a crown of thorns and carrying his cross on his shoulders, so that he will be an example to the crowds and all criminals. And with him I include two robbers and murderers. And, being lead out of the city by the gate Yiambarolla, known today as Antoniana, to be brought to the hill of the villains, known as Calvary, and after being crucified and dead, his body to be left on the cross for all villains to see. And on the cross a note shall be placed in three languages:
"Joshua Alon Iles Iodam" (Hebrew)
"Iesous o Nazoraeos Basileus ton Ioudaeon" (Greek)
"Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judaeorum" (Latin).

We therefore command that nobody, of whatever class and quality, would dare unwisely obstruct the carrying out of this decision, which is passed by me with every decent deliberation as his due sentence for his insurrection, himself a Hebrew, against the laws of the Kingdom of the Romans.

Witnesses of our decision:
On behalf of the Israelites, Rohoboam, Daniel, Rabbinel, Joachin, Banican, Jutabel and Periculam.
On behalf of the Romans, Lucius, Sextilus and Maximilius.
On behalf of the Pharisees...(3 names).
Roman judges … (3 names)
On behalf of the Priesthood … (3 names)
Chief clerk for Hebrew affairs …  Butan.
Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,258


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 01:17:34 AM »

this is interesting...has there been any studies done on the authenticity of this as being from Pilate himself?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 01:17:51 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2009, 07:26:45 AM »

this is interesting...has there been any studies done on the authenticity of this as being from Pilate himself?

No need, the profusion of anachronisms expose it as a forgery, for instance: use of regal titles-the emperors eshewed them until Diocletian nearly three centuries later, and the absence of any mention of the senate-during the period Rome was technically a republic (like Saddam's Iraq), and every official act was done in the Senate's name and dated by the consuls.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Apostolos
Protopentekaidekarchos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Posts: 344



« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 08:56:09 AM »

this is interesting...has there been any studies done on the authenticity of this as being from Pilate himself?

No need, the profusion of anachronisms expose it as a forgery, for instance: use of regal titles-the emperors eshewed them until Diocletian nearly three centuries later, and the absence of any mention of the senate-during the period Rome was technically a republic (like Saddam's Iraq), and every official act was done in the Senate's name and dated by the consuls.
Yes but you're forgetting that this record is the Greek translation of the latin inscription. Perhaps the translator uses the analogous Byzantine titles such as the title of Basileus (which was kept only and scritly for the Emperor) or the title "Rex" which was preserved in Greek also (Ῥῆξ) for "minor" or liegeman "kings". And if I may add the relationship between Tiberius and the Senate was not easy (don't forget Sueotonius' account that Tiberius once commented that the Senators are "Men fit to be slaves"). Although I'm not an historian, I'd be very interested to find out if the names are real and correspond to contemporary to Christ's, public officials and priests.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 08:57:54 AM by Apostolos » Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 10:15:42 AM »

this is interesting...has there been any studies done on the authenticity of this as being from Pilate himself?

No need, the profusion of anachronisms expose it as a forgery, for instance: use of regal titles-the emperors eshewed them until Diocletian nearly three centuries later, and the absence of any mention of the senate-during the period Rome was technically a republic (like Saddam's Iraq), and every official act was done in the Senate's name and dated by the consuls.
Yes but you're forgetting that this record is the Greek translation of the latin inscription.
No, I'm not.

As even the NT itself testifies, Greek had equivalents/loans of the Latin titles.  Βασιλέως Ῥωμαίων, Μονάρχου ἀνικήτου, for instance, would have no equivalent in the Latin of the times, and makes a poor translation in any case of "princeps senatus / princeps civitatis."

Quote
Perhaps the translator uses the analogous Byzantine titles such as the title of Basileus (which was kept only and scritly for the Emperor) or the title "Rex" which was preserved in Greek also (Ῥῆξ) for "minor" or liegeman "kings".

Quote
And if I may add the relationship between Tiberius and the Senate was not easy (don't forget Sueotonius' account that Tiberius once commented that the Senators are "Men fit to be slaves").

Yes, but Tiberius, like Augustus, kept up appearances.  We have plenty of inscriptions that attest to that.

Quote
Although I'm not an historian, I'd be very interested to find out if the names are real and correspond to contemporary to Christ's, public officials and priests.

They might: it would be a poor forger who stated Christ died under the governship of Vespasian.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,934


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 10:23:28 AM »

It would be great if someone could do a little legwork and check the authenticity of the document.  Based on the language used, I'd put it prematurely in the category of "probable forgery" but we'll see.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 03:19:45 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
AmdeBirhan
Pillar of Light
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Christian
Jurisdiction: ArchDiocese Western Hemisphere
Posts: 22



« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 03:22:40 PM »

It is my faith that the Apostles and Evangelists recorded correctly in the SCriptures.  
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church upholds the raditional teaching that Pilate washed his hands of Our Lords Blood, which is a part of every Liturgical Service to this day.
  
Logged

For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing assunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.- HEB 4v12
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 03:54:41 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,473


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 04:09:45 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453
Your point in just throwing out a random number being... Huh
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 04:09:55 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2009, 06:14:53 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453
Your point in just throwing out a random number being... Huh


Mmmmm actually it is not random....... Huh
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,473


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2009, 06:25:27 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453
Your point in just throwing out a random number being... Huh


Mmmmm actually it is not random....... Huh
It may not be random, but it still appears pointless.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2009, 06:55:11 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453
Your point in just throwing out a random number being... Huh



Mmmmm actually it is not random....... Huh
It may not be random, but it still appears pointless.

The OP asked how it could be lost.  I just provided a date when a lot of things were lost: such a record isn't a relic, and we lost lots of those, and of no interest to the Ottomans, so they wouldn't keep it, especially something purporting to record an event they don't believe happened.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 06:56:00 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2009, 08:44:10 PM »

So far I have not been able to find this document on-line, though a number of other "letters" from Pilate may be found.  I don't have the time to go into an in-depth search for more materials just now, but I did a bit of historical checking and found an error in the second sentence where it says that the supposed Latin letter was translated by "the Ecumenical Patriarch Dionysius in 1643".  That is a definite statement of time and person, so I looked up a list of the EPs  and found that in that year the EP was  Parthenios I.  I looked for the nearest one named Dionysius and found that Dionysios II held the office in 1537 and from 1546-1555 while Dionysios III's years in office were  1662-1665.

http://patriarchateofconstantinople.com/patriarchs.htm

So the statement of any supposed "translation" is not historically true. 

I do not read Greek letters quickly, doing it more by rather "count-on-my-fingers" of sounding each letter out but some of the names of the supposed signers look odd with "Ρωάμ" as "Rohoboam" and I've never seen "Jutabel" or "Banican" as any kind of jewish/Hebrew name. 

Update: while checking for the accuracy of the dating, I found another copy of this which is somewhat different in that more names are left out.  It can be found as part of a document, the origin of which I have not had time to research, which is supposed to be about dating the Exodus and which can be found at
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RpyPTG0KPAoJ:jesusdzeus.com/Dating%2520the%2520Exodus.doc+"8th+Heliad"&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm a bit squint-eyed about the above as it mentions "Aten" as an "Atlantean word"   Undecided 

Regarding the dating, I've found that the 201st Olympiad was the four years from roughly mid July 25 AD to mid July 29, if I'm doing the numbers correctly.
http://www.numachi.com/~ccount/hmepa/calendars/201.html
But Tiberius became emperor on the death of Augustus in AD 14, so the seventeenth year of his reign would be around 31.  So those numbers don't jibe either.

It's not much, but there are a few things.

The "missing" original is, as has been noted suspiciously convenient.  It might take a bit of digging to find some translations of authentic letters from governors to Rome/Ceasar but as has been noted, the Senate (remember "SPQR" "Senatus Populusque Romanus" - The Senate and People of Rome) was theoretically the group in control of the Empire.

Ebor
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 08:44:50 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,159


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 12:44:34 AM »

Can't put my finger on it, but something don't quite seem right with this document. It smells, it seems too glib.
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,376


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2009, 02:56:59 AM »

It is my faith that the Apostles and Evangelists recorded correctly in the SCriptures.  
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church upholds the raditional teaching that Pilate washed his hands of Our Lords Blood, which is a part of every Liturgical Service to this day.

Welcome to the forum, AmdeBirhan!

The question of Pilate's status as a saint in your Church was the topic of a thread a while back:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6505.0.html

It seemed no one knew much about it then.  It is an interesting topic, and I am wondering if you could tell us more about your Church's tradition regarding Pilate.  You may want to do it in the above thread, though, as that one is more specifically oriented toward that subject.  Of course this is only if you have the time and inclination.  I think we would all be enriched by the information.   Smiley
Logged

Apostolos
Protopentekaidekarchos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Posts: 344



« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2009, 05:13:30 AM »

So far together with a friend, we have found a couple of things:
1-The "St Agathangelus Prophecy", appeared written for the first time in a booklet and circulated across the Empire in 1279. No-one is sure if the name "St Agathangelus" is real or a punning reference to "Good Messenger" (the name Agathangelus translates in Greek as Good-Messenger or Messenger of Good News).
2-This "prophecy" foretells about future disasters and the final destruction of the Empire. It caused huge unrest among the people because in the prologue reads:
"Constantine built it, Constantine will lose the Kingdom" (Constantine the Great built Contantinople, Constantine Palaeologus lost it to the Ottomans). The whole booklet entertains hostile intentions towards the Roman Catholics and the Pope (this period-late 13th century-is a period of turmoil and unrest for both the Church and the Empire (the schism of the Arsenites, the Lyon pseudo-council etc).
3-The translation of Dionysius is the second translation of this record. The Benedictine monk Iacovus Palaeotus (the name seems to be Greek), translated from Greek to Latin the whole booklet in 1555, and Dionysius translated back into Greek.
4-Archimandrite Theocletus Polyedes translated a different version of this record into Greek, in 1751.
5-There exist several different versions of the same booklet. Some prophesize about the fall of the Empire to the Turks, others contain more prophecies about how "the blond nation (ie the Russians) along with its allies will utterly defeat the entire Ishmael (ie the Ottomans)". These additional accounts are probably added by Polyedes himself.
That's all for now.
Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2009, 08:00:10 AM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453

Huh?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 09:56:48 AM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453

Huh?


Ialmisry is suggesting that the lost translation was destroyed by the Turks, during the Fall of Constantinople.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2009, 10:11:10 AM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453

Huh?



Ialmisry is suggesting that the lost translation was destroyed by the Turks, during the Fall of Constantinople.

Maybe it was stolen by the crusaders during the plundering of Byzantine treasures. Ending up in the hands of the west.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 10:11:41 AM by Demetrios G. » Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2009, 11:04:16 AM »

So far together with a friend, we have found a couple of things:
1-The "St Agathangelus Prophecy", appeared written for the first time in a booklet and circulated across the Empire in 1279. No-one is sure if the name "St Agathangelus" is real or a punning reference to "Good Messenger" (the name Agathangelus translates in Greek as Good-Messenger or Messenger of Good News).

Can you state and/or link to the source for this information please?  Does any original copy of this "booklet" still exist?  The medium still seems odd, since 1279 is before the printing press was created in Europe so such a publication would have had to be handwritten or I suppose possibly woodcut blocks though that doesn't seem to have come into use for illustration until the 1400s. 

A point that I'm trying to make is that someone can say or write that a document dates from a particular time, but that doesn't make it true. There have been plenty of fakes and fraudulent documents in history that were supposed to be true but weren't.   What corroborating evidence is there to support this assertion?

Quote
2-This "prophecy" foretells about future disasters and the final destruction of the Empire. It caused huge unrest among the people because in the prologue reads:
"Constantine built it, Constantine will lose the Kingdom" (Constantine the Great built Contantinople, Constantine Palaeologus lost it to the Ottomans). The whole booklet entertains hostile intentions towards the Roman Catholics and the Pope (this period-late 13th century-is a period of turmoil and unrest for both the Church and the Empire (the schism of the Arsenites, the Lyon pseudo-council etc).

I found two writings on-line (one a scanned in book and the other a paper) that say that some prophecies by such a person were popular in Greece in the 1800s while they were trying to get out from under Turkish control and held to be applicable to that time. 

Quote
3-The translation of Dionysius is the second translation of this record. The Benedictine monk Iacovus Palaeotus (the name seems to be Greek), translated from Greek to Latin the whole booklet in 1555, and Dionysius translated back into Greek.
 

Which Dionysius?  and that still doesn't match with the date in the original post since there was no Patriarch with that name in 1643.  I have done a search for the name of the monk and came up empty. Is that the name in your source and does it give any other information such as where he was or was his name something else that someone had translated into Greek?  "Iavocus" would be "Jacob" maybe.   But if this document was originally in Greek why did it need to be retranslated by a claimed EP that wasn't around during the date cited?   Huh  The original post stated that the document was in Latin. But now there seem to be layers of translation and re-translation that are becoming more and more distant from an (supposed) original.  This is becoming more dubious without any definite sources.

Quote
4-Archimandrite Theocletus Polyedes translated a different version of this record into Greek, in 1751.

Same question for this person: where was he and does he have some other name? Does a copy of his "translation" exist?     I found a reference to a "Theoklitos Polyeidis" who was an archimandrite, but the writing seems to say that he was around in the late 18th-earlier 19th century and I can't find any solid dates on him so far.  Also this source says that he compiled the prophecies. So it's possible that there was not a collection of them before this time.  What is the earliest date on the modern pamphlet/booklet, do you know?
http://alex.eled.duth.gr/Istoria/thrace_english/Thracee7_3.htm

Here is the scanned in page from the translated book "A History of Modern Greek Literature" on a Kostas Palamas "declared interpreter of the prophecies of Agathangelos"
http://books.google.com/books?id=p3GHlQL9mbAC&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq="prophecies+of+Agathangelos"&source=bl&ots=blPIRE-YYI&sig=zoov-g6Phy4kV2QqIxgpI5w5gI4&hl=en&ei=vrf1SeGvKZultgfdkaXtDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA396,M1

Quote
5-There exist several different versions of the same booklet. Some prophesize about the fall of the Empire to the Turks, others contain more prophecies about how "the blond nation (ie the Russians) along with its allies will utterly defeat the entire Ishmael (ie the Ottomans)". These additional accounts are probably added by Polyedes himself.

Several different versions are then not the same booklet.  When things are supposed to be a true thing, yet there are differences, that is another reason to be umm discerning about what is believed or held to be true.  If this was supposed to be a prophecy by a historical figure (and one that may not have existed since you wrote that the name might not be a real name but a pseudonym) having things added to it in succeeding centuries makes the recent copies not  the same as any original work (supposing that such a thing existed.)

One of the things that's making this search tricky is that there are different transliterations between Greek and English words/names I think.  I've found Agathangelos/Agathangelus differences just for starters.

Ebor

edited to correct a bit of grammar
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 11:07:01 AM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2009, 11:06:06 AM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453

Huh?



Ialmisry is suggesting that the lost translation was destroyed by the Turks, during the Fall of Constantinople.

Maybe it was stolen by the crusaders during the plundering of Byzantine treasures. Ending up in the hands of the west.

Then what was being translated in the 1500s or 1600s?  (assuming that such a thing was done at all, and depending on who was supposed to be doing it)
 Huh
 
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2009, 11:42:21 AM »

I can't seem to find any listing of the two Proconsuls named in the letter as having served at all as consuls. For those who don't know, a proconsul is a former consul of Rome who later serves as a provincial governor....

I can check with my Roman history contacts as to whether or not these gentes are even historically accurate...
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2009, 11:52:28 AM »

I can't seem to find any listing of the two Proconsuls named in the letter as having served at all as consuls. For those who don't know, a proconsul is a former consul of Rome who later serves as a provincial governor....

I can check with my Roman history contacts as to whether or not these gentes are even historically accurate...

That is very cool that you have some Roman history contacts, Ukiemeister.  I'd be interested to find out if they are mentioned in the records and from what I know (as a amateur) the Roman republic kept records of things.   Smiley  It's like the "Publius Lentilus" or other various spellings "letter" that has been discussed here.  There was no such person in the Roman bureaucracy in the first century AD. So that's one of the markers that the so-called testimony about Jesus is a fraud.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Apostolos
Protopentekaidekarchos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Posts: 344



« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2009, 01:15:39 PM »

Quote from: Ebor
Can you state and/or link to the source for this information please?  Does any original copy of this "booklet" still exist?  The medium still seems odd, since 1279 is before the printing press was created in Europe so such a publication would have had to be handwritten or I suppose possibly woodcut blocks though that doesn't seem to have come into use for illustration until the 1400s.
A point that I'm trying to make is that someone can say or write that a document dates from a particular time, but that doesn't make it true. There have been plenty of fakes and fraudulent documents in history that were supposed to be true but weren't.   What corroborating evidence is there to support this assertion?
This record came to my attention a few days ago. A dear friend of mine (and former fellow-student) sent it to me by e-mail and I thought it would be good to post it here. We began searching every source possible in order to find something that either proves it's authentic or a forgery.
So far, we have found a single article written by a certain Basileios Pharasopoulos, printed in the magazine "Endohora" (Hinterland) which is a bimonthly publication, published in Thrace (Endohora's page). In this article (September-October 1997), mr Pharasopoulos claims all I posted in my previous post.
Quote from: Ebor
I found two writings on-line (one a scanned in book and the other a paper) that say that some prophecies by such a person were popular in Greece in the 1800s while they were trying to get out from under Turkish control and held to be applicable to that time.
Are you sure it's about the same booklet or prophecy? Because dozens or so "prophecies" were popular here in the 1800's. What's more interesting is that among the Sarakatsani people the "Agathangelus prophecy" is synonymous to the prophecies of st Kosmas the Aetolian (aka Didachos). Under the Turkish yoke I do not think it was easy to establish the authentincity or not of a document, booklet, pamphlet or whatever.
Quote from: Ebor
Which Dionysius?  and that still doesn't match with the date in the original post since there was no Patriarch with that name in 1643.  I have done a search for the name of the monk and came up empty. Is that the name in your source and does it give any other information such as where he was or was his name something else that someone had translated into Greek?

Yes, I'm pretty sure. My source literatim (the translation is mine):
"Το 1381 μεταφέρθηκε στην Κωνσταντινούπολη επί των ημερών του Πατριάρχου Ιερεμίου. Μεταφράστηκε από τον Παναγιώτατο Οικουμενικό Πατριάρχη Διονύσιο, κατά το έτος 1643".
"In 1381 [this booklet] was distributed to Constantinople during the Patriarchy of Patriarch Ieremias (Jeremy). It was translated [into Greek obviously] by HAH the Ecumenical Patriarch Dionysius in 1643".
Quote from: Ebor
"Iavocus" would be "Jacob" maybe.

The benedictine monk's name I found in Greek is: Ἰάκωβος Παλαιῶτος (Iacovos Palaeotos). Unfortunately I do not know if he was Greek or not. His name seems to be Greek but it could also be a Hellenized form of his Latin name.
Quote from: Ebor
But if this document was originally in Greek why did it need to be retranslated by a claimed EP that wasn't around during the date cited?  The original post stated that the document was in Latin. But now there seem to be layers of translation and re-translation that are becoming more and more distant from an (supposed) original.  This is becoming more dubious without any definite sources.

Yes but don't forget the multitude of documents the Crusaders brought with them to the West during the Crucades. Could it be one of those "reborrowings"?
As far the Patriarch's name is concerned, perhaps it is a mistake by the author of the source? Perhaps he had in mind that this Dionysios was the "soon to become" Patriarch?
I do not now.
Quote from: Ebor
Same question for this person: where was he and does he have some other name? Does a copy of his "translation" exist?  I found a reference to a "Theoklitos Polyeidis" who was an archimandrite, but the writing seems to say that he was around in the late 18th-earlier 19th century and I can't find any solid dates on him so far.  Also this source says that he compiled the prophecies. So it's possible that there was not a collection of them before this time.  What is the earliest date on the modern pamphlet/booklet, do you know?
I do not know. You mean that Polyedes lived in the late 18th early 20th century (it seems to me impossible) and he just "predated" (I apologise for the neologism) his writings...with what purpose? that no-one could dispute its validity perhaps? Yet I find it hard to believe that an archimandrite counterfeits the date of his writings even if its for a sacred cause (ie to give courage to the oppressed Greeks that their freedom is near). Besides since 1832 Greece is an independent and free state.
Quote from: Ebor
Here is the scanned in page from the translated book "A History of Modern Greek Literature" on a Kostas Palamas "declared interpreter of the prophecies of Agathangelos"
Kostis Palamas was a poet. I guess you're aware of the term "Artistic or Poetic license"
Quote from: Ebor
Several different versions are then not the same booklet.  When things are supposed to be a true thing, yet there are differences, that is another reason to be umm discerning about what is believed or held to be true.  If this was supposed to be a prophecy by a historical figure (and one that may not have existed since you wrote that the name might not be a real name but a pseudonym) having things added to it in succeeding centuries makes the recent copies not  the same as any original work (supposing that such a thing existed.)
That is indeed a very serious argument. 
Quote from: Ebor
One of the things that's making this search tricky is that there are different transliterations between Greek and English words/names I think.  I've found Agathangelos/Agathangelus differences just for starters.
Oh, I'm sorry that was a lame attempt of mine to Anglisize the Greek name Ἀγαθάγγελος (Agathangelos). Blame me for your difficulties  Grin
Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2009, 01:51:22 PM »

Quote from: Ebor
Can you state and/or link to the source for this information please?  Does any original copy of this "booklet" still exist?  The medium still seems odd, since 1279 is before the printing press was created in Europe so such a publication would have had to be handwritten or I suppose possibly woodcut blocks though that doesn't seem to have come into use for illustration until the 1400s.
A point that I'm trying to make is that someone can say or write that a document dates from a particular time, but that doesn't make it true. There have been plenty of fakes and fraudulent documents in history that were supposed to be true but weren't.   What corroborating evidence is there to support this assertion?
This record came to my attention a few days ago. A dear friend of mine (and former fellow-student) sent it to me by e-mail and I thought it would be good to post it here. We began searching every source possible in order to find something that either proves it's authentic or a forgery.
So far, we have found a single article written by a certain Basileios Pharasopoulos, printed in the magazine "Endohora" (Hinterland) which is a bimonthly publication, published in Thrace
(Endohora's page). In this article (September-October 1997), mr Pharasopoulos claims all I posted in my previous post.

Thank you for your reply.  Thrace has shown up in the documents I was able to find on-line so that could be a link of the "prophecies" to a particular political/geographic group.  If this is based on just one article, one question would then be who is Mr. Pharasopoulos and what is his background, expertise and/or particular interest (political for example) in writing this article.  Does he give sources or references?

Quote
Quote from: Ebor
I found two writings on-line (one a scanned in book and the other a paper) that say that some prophecies by such a person were popular in Greece in the 1800s while they were trying to get out from under Turkish control and held to be applicable to that time.
Are you sure it's about the same booklet or prophecy? Because dozens or so "prophecies" were popular here in the 1800's. What's more interesting is that among the Sarakatsani people the "Agathangelus prophecy" is synonymous to the prophecies of st Kosmas the Aetolian (aka Didachos). Under the Turkish yoke I do not think it was easy to establish the authentincity or not of a document, booklet, pamphlet or whatever.

Considering the different spellings/transliterations it is possible that they refer to something else, but the name is a possible link.  This might be something to  be looked at for a comparison.

Quote
Quote from: Ebor
Which Dionysius?  and that still doesn't match with the date in the original post since there was no Patriarch with that name in 1643.  I have done a search for the name of the monk and came up empty. Is that the name in your source and does it give any other information such as where he was or was his name something else that someone had translated into Greek?

Yes, I'm pretty sure. My source literatim (the translation is mine):
"Το 1381 μεταφέρθηκε στην Κωνσταντινούπολη επί των ημερών του Πατριάρχου Ιερεμίου. Μεταφράστηκε από τον Παναγιώτατο Οικουμενικό Πατριάρχη Διονύσιο, κατά το έτος 1643".
"In 1381 [this booklet] was distributed to Constantinople during the Patriarchy of Patriarch Ieremias (Jeremy). It was translated [into Greek obviously] by HAH the Ecumenical Patriarch Dionysius in 1643".

Well, there's another historical error.  I checked the same list of EP and in 1381 the EP was named Nelios and his years were 1380-1388.  It occurs to me also, that with a span of about 260 years, there's blank time that might not have a guaranteed record of such a "booklet". I'm not trying to be difficult, I assure you.  But these gaps and lack of provenance of "originals" and mistakes in the text do matter in ascertaining whether something is what is claimed about it.


Quote
Quote from: Ebor
But if this document was originally in Greek why did it need to be retranslated by a claimed EP that wasn't around during the date cited?  The original post stated that the document was in Latin. But now there seem to be layers of translation and re-translation that are becoming more and more distant from an (supposed) original.  This is becoming more dubious without any definite sources.

Yes but don't forget the multitude of documents the Crusaders brought with them to the West during the Crucades. Could it be one of those "reborrowings"?
As far the Patriarch's name is concerned, perhaps it is a mistake by the author of the source? Perhaps he had in mind that this Dionysios was the "soon to become" Patriarch?
I do not now.

I think that we're getting into speculation here.  Are there libraries or lists of the "multitude of documents" brought west?  If the original was supposed to be a Latin report/letter to an emperor in Rome from a governor (Pilate) how would it have gotten to Constantinople? Did the bureaucracy move its files?  I don't know.  By "this Dionysios" do you mean the third one in the 1660's?  This is, again I think, speculation.

 
Quote from: Ebor
Same question for this person: where was he and does he have some other name? Does a copy of his "translation" exist?  I found a reference to a "Theoklitos Polyeidis" who was an archimandrite, but the writing seems to say that he was around in the late 18th-earlier 19th century and I can't find any solid dates on him so far.  Also this source says that he compiled the prophecies. So it's possible that there was not a collection of them before this time.  What is the earliest date on the modern pamphlet/booklet, do you know?
I do not know. You mean that Polyedes lived in the late 18th early 20th century (it seems to me impossible) and he just "predated" (I apologise for the neologism) his writings...with what purpose? that no-one could dispute its validity perhaps? Yet I find it hard to believe that an archimandrite counterfeits the date of his writings even if its for a sacred cause (ie to give courage to the oppressed Greeks that their freedom is near). Besides since 1832 Greece is an independent and free state.[/quote]

I think you mistyped.  This Polyeidis looks to have been writing in the late 1700s to early 1800s, not the early 20th century, so he would have been compiling the Agathangelos material in that time.   I may have miswritten myself as well.  I was asking if you knew of the earliest publication of the modern work that you mentioned in the first post.  Have you seen copies of it?  The peculiar site that I found mentioned it as well, so there might be some hard copies of it in circulation with a publication or copyright date that could be another data point.

Quote
Quote from: Ebor
Here is the scanned in page from the translated book "A History of Modern Greek Literature" on a Kostas Palamas "declared interpreter of the prophecies of Agathangelos"
Kostis Palamas was a poet. I guess you're aware of the term "Artistic or Poetic license"

Yes, but it is also possible that this person, as an educated man, might have taken it on himself to "interpret" out of, I don't know, his own ego or because he thought he understood them better.  I linked to it as one of the few places available on-line that I have been able to find any mention of these 'prophecies' at all.

Quote from: Ebor
One of the things that's making this search tricky is that there are different transliterations between Greek and English words/names I think.  I've found Agathangelos/Agathangelus differences just for starters.
Oh, I'm sorry that was a lame attempt of mine to Anglisize the Greek name Ἀγαθάγγελος (Agathangelos). Blame me for your difficulties  Grin
[/quote]

I assure you I was not trying to blame anyone.  It's just a fact of transliterating from one language to another that some sounds may be spelt more them one way.  Smiley

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2009, 03:23:31 PM »

That "Latin inscription is lost" sends up red flags to me. How could that be lost given the import of an independent confirmation of scripture?
1453

Huh?


Ialmisry is suggesting that the lost translation was destroyed by the Turks, during the Fall of Constantinople.

I do understand that. I assume it's a suggestion lacking no basis. If we can't blame the Latins, we can blame the Turks?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Apostolos
Protopentekaidekarchos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Posts: 344



« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 07:28:17 AM »

I think you mistyped.  This Polyeidis looks to have been writing in the late 1700s to early 1800s, not the early 20th century, so he would have been compiling the Agathangelos material in that time.   I may have miswritten myself as well.  I was asking if you knew of the earliest publication of the modern work that you mentioned in the first post.  Have you seen copies of it?  The peculiar site that I found mentioned it as well, so there might be some hard copies of it in circulation with a publication or copyright date that could be another data point.
Yes I did, I'm sorry. However from what I have established so far, archimandrite Polyedes translated the whole booklet (not just the record) from Italian (so we have another translation (?) Latin->Greek->Italian->Greek again?) into Greek in 1751. Now the "prophecies of Agathangelos", was printed for the first time here in 1837 (5 years after our independence) and again in 1857. I found a written record that in the '50's in Rhodope, Thrace lived elderly people who knew "the prophecies of Agathangelos" by heart and recited from memory whole chapters from the booklet. Unfortunately I can't tell whether copy/copies of the 1857 edition of this booklet exist or not.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 07:29:23 AM by Apostolos » Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2009, 09:03:16 PM »

My word. This piece of writing is getting more and more complex.  I wonder though just where the Italian translation fits in the historical thread.  It looks like the 1837 or 1857 Greek editions may be the most solid publication known.  I wonder how the archimandrite came across the Italian version.  It also makes me wonder if that could be the original and there aren't any earlier copies in either Latin or Greek.  There have been other fraudulent works of this nature that have been traced to the middle ages or later that claim to be much older and original documents.

It's interesting that you mentioned the older people in Thrace.  I poked around a bit as to the history/geography of "Thrace" and found that it was an area that is now parts of northeastern Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey and that was still under the Ottoman control into the 20th century. So I'm wondering if there is a popular/political connection between the purported prophecy and Thrace itself. 

Thank you for the information that you have found and for your research.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Tags: Pilate 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.149 seconds with 57 queries.