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Author Topic: Russian Orthodox "War" on Catholics?  (Read 1722 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 25, 2009, 12:49:35 PM »

Someone posted a video a while ago about a "war" between the Russian Orthodox and the Pope's decision to divide Russia into Catholic diocese in 2008.  Did this actually happen, and what the heck was Pope Benedict XVI thinking if he really wants to improve relations with the Orthodox?  The video shows that the bishops of the new diocese were expelled from the country by Vladimir Putin per the Patriarch's request, and paints a grim picture of Russia.

I don't really care too much either way, I was just wondering how difficult things are for Catholics in Russia, and whether or not they were really proselytizing as they are being accused of.

Here's the video, by the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esUOmVB8U8
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2009, 01:20:33 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2009, 01:38:39 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.
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Well, I wouldn't go that far, I like that the bishops have to work for their flock. But yeah, all about Nazi invasions but nothing about the Teutonic Knights or the forced submission to the Vatican and Latinization at the point of the Szczerbiec
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczerbiec
split when the Polish king invaded Kievan Rus in support of Svetpolk, murderer of SS. Boris and Gleb, fighting against Yaroslav the Wise.

The epitomy of it was the rather dogmatic statement made as a matter of fact, that the "Catholic Chruch and the Russian Orthodox Church are sisters Churches....virtually identical in theology," and the reference to the Latin bishops as "brother priests" to the Orthodox bishops.  The PoM response to the Horos of the council of Ravenna says otherwise.  Russia has seen what the Vatican has done to the sister Churches of Serbia, Czech Republic etc.  They aren't stupid.
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The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm
hasn't changed.
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2009, 01:53:22 PM »

I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Just so we're clear, I didn't think there was any attempt to be objective in the video.  It is quite obviously propaganda.
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2009, 01:55:05 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.

This attitude reminds me of countries like Saudi Arabia: We demand you give Muslims religious freedom in your country but forget about having it in ours.

How about disbanding the MP dioceses in Western Europe?
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2009, 02:16:06 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy.

That's the same reaction I had.
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2009, 02:37:02 PM »

This attitude reminds me of countries like Saudi Arabia: We demand you give Muslims religious freedom in your country but forget about having it in ours.

How about disbanding the MP dioceses in Western Europe?

I'll go with that (disbanding MP dioceses) simply because it is an uncanonical position.  However, this would require grants of autonomy or autocephaly neither of which I see in the forseeable future simply because their are only pockets of Orthodox (like a few thousand).  we're not talking hundreds of thousands like there are in Russia.

However, I know of no instances where the Orthodox in Europe are actively trying to convert the populations to Orthodoxy where as the Catholic Hierarchs in Russia are trying to do exactly that.  Why is there a need for four dioceses for a total Catholic population is only 500,000 people? 
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2009, 02:50:45 PM »

Why is there a need for four dioceses for a total Catholic population is only 500,000 people?

And how many diocese are there in the United States for some measly 1,000,000 Orthodox?  Way more than the ratio of the four diocese for 500,000.
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2009, 03:03:43 PM »

Why is there a need for four dioceses for a total Catholic population is only 500,000 people?

And how many diocese are there in the United States for some measly 1,000,000 Orthodox?  Way more than the ratio of the four diocese for 500,000.

The Catholic diocese in which I was confirmed has little over 100,000 Catholics.

Russia is a big place---the MP has 2 dioceses in Western Europe, and you could put quite a few Western Europes in one Russia.
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2009, 03:11:56 PM »

Why is there a need for four dioceses for a total Catholic population is only 500,000 people?

And how many diocese are there in the United States for some measly 1,000,000 Orthodox?  Way more than the ratio of the four diocese for 500,000.

True enough.  Of course much of that is due to teh fact that we have no centralized Orthodox administrative authority and divided along jurisdictional lines.  The Catholics, on the other hand, do have that so why the need for more dioceses, especially if most of the Russian Catholics are in relatively the same location and not spread out over a huge geographic area?
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2009, 04:20:35 PM »

We should also keep in mind that Greece has allowed the Catholics to divide up the whole country into diocese without issue.
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2009, 04:39:40 PM »

How is it that the Catholics are starting to make such inroads in traditional Orthodox countries? The protestants are also doing the same. It's weird seeing all these big Russian protestant churches popping up all over the place in America. It makes you question whether the Orthodox church has become ineffective today in evangelism and apologetics. 
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2009, 05:11:30 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.

This attitude reminds me of countries like Saudi Arabia: We demand you give Muslims religious freedom in your country but forget about having it in ours.

or like the Vatican demanding rights into Orthodox countries, prattling on how "you can be Russian and be Catholic," but in Central and Latin America bemoaning the presences of the Protestants and encouraging restrictions (if not outright persecusion) of them. Witness the sparing by the Peruvian Latin hierarchs in Fujiyama's (who is catholic) election because of the presence of Pentacostal support for him.

Quote
How about disbanding the MP dioceses in Western Europe?

Are you speaking for the Protestants too?
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2009, 05:19:40 PM »

Or like the Vatican demanding rights into Orthodox countries, prattling on how "you can be Russian and be Catholic," but in Central and Latin America bemoaning the presences of the Protestants and encouraging restrictions (if not outright persecution) of them. Witness the sparing by the Peruvian Latin hierarchs in Fujiyama's (who is Catholic) election because of the presence of Pentecostal support for him.

It's true.  Everyone is really just out for themselves in this mess.  At least Russia is honest about it and calling out the Pope on his games.
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2009, 07:23:45 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.
Absolutely. Catholics in Russia don't deserve to have shepherds of their own.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2009, 07:26:20 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.

This attitude reminds me of countries like Saudi Arabia: We demand you give Muslims religious freedom in your country but forget about having it in ours.

or like the Vatican demanding rights into Orthodox countries, prattling on how "you can be Russian and be Catholic," but in Central and Latin America bemoaning the presences of the Protestants and encouraging restrictions (if not outright persecusion) of them. Witness the sparing by the Peruvian Latin hierarchs in Fujiyama's (who is catholic) election because of the presence of Pentacostal support for him.

Quote
How about disbanding the MP dioceses in Western Europe?

Are you speaking for the Protestants too?
You can be Russian and Catholic. Religion need be tied to your race or ethnicity. It should be tied to what you believe is the truth with regard to God's revelation to man.
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2009, 08:07:53 PM »

How is it that the Catholics are starting to make such inroads in traditional Orthodox countries? The protestants are also doing the same. It's weird seeing all these big Russian protestant churches popping up all over the place in America. It makes you question whether the Orthodox church has become ineffective today in evangelism and apologetics. 

The new generation does not like the traditional constraints or structure...

The post Vat II crowd has seen to that on the RC side...
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2009, 08:10:56 PM »

In my post above I meant to say that religion need not be tied to one's religion or ethnicity. sorry for the typo. Too late for me to go back and fix it.
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2009, 11:57:56 PM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.

This attitude reminds me of countries like Saudi Arabia: We demand you give Muslims religious freedom in your country but forget about having it in ours.

or like the Vatican demanding rights into Orthodox countries, prattling on how "you can be Russian and be Catholic," but in Central and Latin America bemoaning the presences of the Protestants and encouraging restrictions (if not outright persecusion) of them. Witness the sparing by the Peruvian Latin hierarchs in Fujiyama's (who is catholic) election because of the presence of Pentacostal support for him.

Quote
How about disbanding the MP dioceses in Western Europe?

Are you speaking for the Protestants too?
You can be Russian and Catholic. Religion need be tied to your race or ethnicity. It should be tied to what you believe is the truth with regard to God's revelation to man.

And you can be Polish and Orthodox. In fact, we have a whole Church for you if you are Polish.  But I don't see that in the Vatican's universe.
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2009, 12:43:31 AM »

I stopped watching before it was halfway done.  I find it to be typical Western propaganda rooted in strict opposition to Orthodoxy. After hearing repeatedly of the Orthodox Church and Patriarch ALEXY II of blessed memory being collaborators with the communist despite NO proof of that, it was assumed that such was the case.

Now, I will certainly grant that Russia is not  a free democratic society.  But the Christianity of Russia has always been Orthodox. It is the Russian Orthodox's Church responsibility and only her responsibility to minister to the spiritual needs of the people. 

Benedict XVI will say one thing with his mouth and do another thing.  He should do the right thing and disband the dioceses.  Creating more dioceses will only create more tension.  If the Russian catholics love their catholicism that much, they can move.  Russia is Orthodox.

This attitude reminds me of countries like Saudi Arabia: We demand you give Muslims religious freedom in your country but forget about having it in ours.

or like the Vatican demanding rights into Orthodox countries, prattling on how "you can be Russian and be Catholic," but in Central and Latin America bemoaning the presences of the Protestants and encouraging restrictions (if not outright persecusion) of them. Witness the sparing by the Peruvian Latin hierarchs in Fujiyama's (who is catholic) election because of the presence of Pentacostal support for him.

Quote
How about disbanding the MP dioceses in Western Europe?

Are you speaking for the Protestants too?
You can be Russian and Catholic. Religion need be tied to your race or ethnicity. It should be tied to what you believe is the truth with regard to God's revelation to man.

And you can be Polish and Orthodox. In fact, we have a whole Church for you if you are Polish.  But I don't see that in the Vatican's universe.
Or Russian and Catholic, German and Catholic, French and Catholic, Lebonese and Catholic, Japanese and Catholic, Mexican and Catholic, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. The Roman Church is not bound up in ethnicities. I doubt that the Orthodox Church is really bound up in ethnicities either. Thus, you can be whatever race or ethinicity you are that should have influence on which Church you choose.
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2009, 01:40:54 AM »

You can be Russian and Catholic. Religion need be tied to your race or ethnicity. It should be tied to what you believe is the truth with regard to God's revelation to man.

It's quite perplexing that some people are all up in arms about thousands of Catholic Russians but do not pay nearly as much attention to many millions of non-believing or non-practicing Russians.
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2009, 01:44:06 AM »

You can be Russian and Catholic. Religion need be tied to your race or ethnicity. It should be tied to what you believe is the truth with regard to God's revelation to man.

It's quite perplexing that some people are all up in arms about thousands of Catholic Russians but do not pay nearly as much attention to many millions of non-believing or non-practicing Russians.
Exactly!
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2009, 01:55:53 AM »

It's quite perplexing that some people are all up in arms about thousands of Catholic Russians but do not pay nearly as much attention to many millions of non-believing or non-practicing Russians.

An excellent point.  Less power grab; more Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2009, 03:31:15 AM »

It's quite perplexing that some people are all up in arms about thousands of Catholic Russians but do not pay nearly as much attention to many millions of non-believing or non-practicing Russians.

What do you have in mind?    What has been the increase in believers and communicants over the last 15 years?  Millions of people.

Since Perestroika in 1991, the Church of Russia has opened 27,000 churches.  It is continuing to open 3 new churches EVERY day!   It has also supplied priests for these churches and many of them also have a full-time deacon.    There is a great outreach to the unchurched.  How else do you think that the mass baptisms of new believers occur in the summer in rivers and ponds?

There is also a great amount of work in society.  Just to give one example - the Diocese of Moscow operates 400 (four hundred) soup kitchens.  They have no qualms about missionary work as they serve up the meals and share them with the indigent.   

So while it may seem to people in the West that the Russian Church in too concerned about Roman Catholics in Russia - let us remember that this is often just the Western media dishing up news which it knows will be interesting.  News about the Russian Church's evangelisation of non-believers doesn't have the same headline appeal.

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