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Author Topic: Is any Latinisation acceptable in Orthodox practice?  (Read 1527 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« on: April 25, 2009, 11:26:10 AM »

This thread is a spin-off from the one concerning Roman Catholic influence (or the lack thereof) on this forum.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20842.msg313844/topicseen.html#msg313844

RC influence online is different to residual 1930s Greek Catholic practice in ACROD. As I wrote in the comments thread under the linked blog entry above, some Metropolia now OCA parishes used to have Solemn First Communion which ACROD and the South Bound Brook Ukrainian Orthodox still do as First Confession. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if you mean that there is nothing wrong with the former OCA practice of "solemn first confession."   I certainly disagree with you on this if you do include it with the ACROD practice.  Regarding the ACROD practice, I am not sure what to think.  (I am not knocking ACROD, since returning to Orthodoxy they have restored Eastern praxis in what looks to me to be a truly organic fashion inspired by the Holy Spirit.)  Is this emphasis on "First Confession" benign or even helpful, or is it a latinisation that is not really acceptable in the long run?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 11:28:46 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2009, 11:39:09 AM »

This thread is a spin-off from the one concerning Roman Catholic influence (or the lack thereof) on this forum.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20842.msg313844/topicseen.html#msg313844

RC influence online is different to residual 1930s Greek Catholic practice in ACROD. As I wrote in the comments thread under the linked blog entry above, some Metropolia now OCA parishes used to have Solemn First Communion which ACROD and the South Bound Brook Ukrainian Orthodox still do as First Confession. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if you mean that there is nothing wrong with the former OCA practice of "solemn first confession."   I certainly disagree with you on this if you do include it with the ACROD practice.  Regarding the ACROD practice, I am not sure what to think.  (I am not knocking ACROD, since returning to Orthodoxy they have restored Eastern praxis in what looks to me to be a truly organic fashion inspired by the Holy Spirit.)  Is this emphasis on "First Confession" benign or even helpful, or is it a latinisation that is not really acceptable in the long run?

"First Communion" is pernicious: your first Communion is at baptism, and you ought to have it frequently while the young soul is in formation.  To emphasize any "first communion" invites all sorts of heretical ideas about the Holy Mysteries (e.g. "Believer Baptism").

Solemn First Confession is an excellent practice that underlines the importance and purpose of this Holy Mystery.  If it arose from Latin influence, so what?
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2009, 11:57:12 AM »

Solemn First Confession is an excellent practice that underlines the importance and purpose of this Holy Mystery.  If it arose from Latin influence, so what?

Because it did not grow up organically in the Church under the guidance of Holy Tradition but rather comes from a schismatic outside source and does not truly reflect an Orthodox "worldview", that's what.  At the very least, this is the argument that can be legitimately put forth.  Also, we Orthodox are loathe to nail things down and define them unless absolutely necessary, and your argument has the effect of making me veer more towards the idea that any latinisation is bad, no matter how residual.  The very phrase itself, "solemn first confession" sets off alarm bells for me.  It represents a very particular view of the nature of this mystery that I fear is grounded in a Roman Catholic understanding of the sacrament. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 12:21:00 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2009, 12:50:13 PM »

Solemn First Confession is an excellent practice that underlines the importance and purpose of this Holy Mystery.  If it arose from Latin influence, so what?

Because it did not grow up organically in the Church under the guidance of Holy Tradition but rather comes from a schismatic outside source and does not truly reflect an Orthodox "worldview", that's what. 

Where do we begin to undo the "damage?" For instance, the EP got jurisdiction over Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria to grant autocephaly to them from the Iconoclast emperors detatching Illyrium from the jurisdiction of Rome (in punishment for the iconophile status of Rome) to that of Constantinople.  That would call into question all those autocephalous local Churches.

All those pagan practices baptized by the Church (like the Pentarchy) grow up organically in the Church, under the guidance of Holy Tradition?

Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.  Phillippinans 4:8.  Hence why many Orthodox prefer the King James version, which is from a heretical outside source.


Quote
At the very least, this is the argument that can be legitimately put forth.  Also, we Orthodox are loathe to nail things down and define them unless absolutely necessary, and your argument has the effect of making me veer more towards the idea that any latinisation is bad, no matter how residual.  The very phrase itself, "solemn first confession" sets off alarm bells for me. 

LOL.  I used it only because you OP did.  I just say "First Confession."

Quote
It represents a very particular view of the nature of this mystery that I fear is grounded in a Roman Catholic understanding of the sacrament. 
Which is differs from the Orthodox one how? (age of reason, etc. being necessary to confess, etc., necessity thereafter to confess for communion etc.)
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2009, 12:50:25 PM »

Solemn First Confession is an excellent practice that underlines the importance and purpose of this Holy Mystery.  If it arose from Latin influence, so what?

While I'm usually in the "it needs organic development" camp, I'd have to agree 100%: if it brings people a greater respect and attachment to (IMO) the most under-appreciated sacrament in the Church (I say that meaning either people don't do it enough, or they do it so often that it loses much of its meaning) then God bless it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2009, 01:12:28 PM »

It's been about a year since my daughter's first confession, and my son's will be in about a year.  It's a tradition I really like and appreciate.
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2009, 01:18:20 PM »

This thread is a spin-off from the one concerning Roman Catholic influence (or the lack thereof) on this forum.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20842.msg313844/topicseen.html#msg313844

RC influence online is different to residual 1930s Greek Catholic practice in ACROD. As I wrote in the comments thread under the linked blog entry above, some Metropolia now OCA parishes used to have Solemn First Communion which ACROD and the South Bound Brook Ukrainian Orthodox still do as First Confession. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if you mean that there is nothing wrong with the former OCA practice of "solemn first confession."   I certainly disagree with you on this if you do include it with the ACROD practice.  Regarding the ACROD practice, I am not sure what to think.  (I am not knocking ACROD, since returning to Orthodoxy they have restored Eastern praxis in what looks to me to be a truly organic fashion inspired by the Holy Spirit.)  Is this emphasis on "First Confession" benign or even helpful, or is it a latinisation that is not really acceptable in the long run?

Really First Confession isn't anything anyone is making it out to be... sure the kids dress up --boys in suits girls in white dresses... but if it marks the event and makes in memorable... so what?  It may be an RC influenced thing but hardly the biggest RC influenced thing on Orthodox practice that pretty much every Orthodox Church in the world uses.  It's no worse than the Protestant influences on Orthodoxy, such as Joshua Trees, hating Pysanky, judging others who don't wear floor length skirts in the "temple,"  telling others how to live and the crazy anti catholicism that exists in some parishes... oh and did I mention the protestant convert influence on refusing to pray for the dead (ie.. not believe in praying panachidas for the departed like say on someone's anniversary of their death).
P.S. I'm not attacking you Pravoslavbob, I just quoted you because it was the original post. 

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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2009, 01:25:15 PM »

They used to say the same thing about Prostopinije.
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2009, 01:32:23 PM »

Where do we begin to undo the "damage?" For instance, the EP got jurisdiction over Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria to grant autocephaly to them from the Iconoclast emperors detatching Illyrium from the jurisdiction of Rome (in punishment for the iconophile status of Rome) to that of Constantinople.  That would call into question all those autocephalous local Churches.

I think you are opening another can of worms here that doesn't really have to do with the discussion at hand.


Quote
Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.  Phillippinans 4:8.  Hence why many Orthodox prefer the King James version, which is from a heretical outside source.

The very point is that many would question whether latinisations of various kinds are "honourable, pure, lovely" etc.


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LOL.  I used it only because you OP did.  I just say "First Confession."

My bad.  I misquoted the "OP" of Serge (the Young Fogey) in the other thread.  I am not sure if ACROD even calls it this.


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Quote
It represents a very particular view of the nature of this mystery that I fear is grounded in a Roman Catholic understanding of the sacrament. 
Which is differs from the Orthodox one how? (age of reason, etc. being necessary to confess, etc., necessity thereafter to confess for communion etc.)

I have already made my points regarding this.  There is no one Orthodox "definition" concerning the nature of the mystery of confession and the Orthodox perspective on doctrinal definition is to keep things open unless they must be defined so that we avoid the all-too-human idolatry of attempting to make God in our own image, to put it in a rather stark way.  I am not saying that this means that we do not have a theology concerning the mystery.

I certainly acknowledge that in this particular case, there may be no problem at all. I don't know enough about the situation.  It's just that I think people who challenge the assertion that there is no problem are not on flimsy ground when they do so.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 01:44:05 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2009, 01:36:58 PM »

Yes Pravoslavbob the ACROD does call it First Confession.  The boys wear suits and the girls wear the first communion white dresses with the lace head coverings.
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2009, 01:38:37 PM »

Yes Pravoslavbob the ACROD does call it First Confession.  The boys wear suits and the girls wear the first communion white dresses with the lace head coverings.

Interesting.  But where I err is in suggesting that they may call it "solemn first confession".  Am I right?
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2009, 01:39:22 PM »


It's no worse than the Protestant influences on Orthodoxy, such as Joshua Trees

Joshua trees?


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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2009, 01:45:04 PM »

Yes Pravoslavbob the ACROD does call it First Confession.  The boys wear suits and the girls wear the first communion white dresses with the lace head coverings.

Yes, but all the while these children have been receiving communion for years in most parishes now. There are a few old Latinized hold-out older priests given to some RC practices, but Met. Nicholas has ferreted most of the practices out now. First Confession seems to linger.
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