OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 28, 2014, 05:20:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: When opinions of those in school and church differ...  (Read 3922 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« on: April 23, 2009, 04:33:51 PM »

I don't know how to word this in a short, quick way. But what do you do when the opinions of those at your school differ with those of people in your Church?

I've found that in my past, I try to listen to more "academic" and "well-read" sources than I listen to average people on issues of politics and current events... Yet, I've found I've still been in the wrong when it comes down to it.
I listened to people who said that during a certain mayoral election, that one guy should be elected, so I supported him based on the idea that things would get better (from well-read sources) and yet, things actually didn't turn out very good.

I hear people at Church talk about Socialism and other governmental/economic forms as if they don't work well, and yet here at school, I hear the same exact thing said about Capitalism.

In one place I'm told those in our government are making big mistakes, and yet in the academic setting, I hear almost nothing about it.

I've always tend to favor academics over the tendencies of Midwestern conservative opinions, and yet, I am very conflicted because now those I respect the most in Church are making a very convincing argument that what I've come to accept in the world of politics and economics is actually not even very Orthodox.

I've tended to be more a Social Democrat/Democratic Socialist, which is fine and ok in school. Yet when I talk to others at Church, it seems I'm in a minority and often socialism is seen as bad.

I feel like at Church, if I hold my more socialist views, I'm seen as catering too much to the will of the people and control of the gov't over all things, then at school, if I express views held by those at Church, I'm seen as an uneducated, midwestern person who doesn't know as much about issues and listens too much too media and average people...

___________________

What do you do? Do I continue to trust and follow the teachings of the academics, or do I trust and follow those who have been Orthodox for much longer than I have been? (that is, on social and economic/governmental issues)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 04:36:10 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 04:51:32 PM »

Aha! I knew it!  Just wait till Fr. A finds out you're a socialist!  You'll be removed from the choir!  Ha ha ha ha!  Cheesy

 Just like on internet forums, we're always going to encounter real people who hold differing views from us.  It's just a part of life.  What to do?  Try and learn the other persons point of view as well as 'why' they believe a certain way.  Take things into consideration, be patient, and remember that sometimes our views bug other people just as much as their views bug us.  But we don't have to let differing views put a wedge between ourselves and others.  Besides, it can get kinda lonely when we're always right. 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2009, 04:53:20 PM »

LOL  Grin

No, trust me, it isn't just him, there are others. Of course, I don't mind others having differing opinions, but it's just got me torn. I love them with all my heart, but it's hard to be taught two very different things in the two places I spend most of my time at.

Their positions don't bother me and I don't see them as wrong, but I just don't know what to do/think...
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 04:54:50 PM »

Well, it's been years since I've been in "school", but, I well remember those same feeling of insecurity.  You want to "fit in"...and those professors sure are convincing!  I was always at odds with what my family believed and supported.  "But, my professor said....."

Since it has been years, I can now look back on that time period objectively.

Let me tell you, from my experience, what the "Church" preaches is best and right.

It takes guts to say what you truly believe, and to stick out like that country bumpkin.  Who cares what they think of you?  You should only worry about what God thinks of you.

If you were to listen to these people than abortion is not only acceptable but the "better way".  After all, those children will have a miserable life.  Their parents don't want them.  They will be a burden on the system and on all the taxpayers.  It's best they not even enter this world.
Makes sense, huh?  They can paint it in all the pretty colors and give you all kinds of reasons and arguments to support their point of view.

However, the Church says murder is wrong.  This is murder.  That person didn't even have a chance to live their life.  It's a sin.

So, don't jump to be "popular" or to follow the opinion of the day....
Do what your soul encourages you to do.

Trust me, in the end only God's opinion of you matters....and the easy way, is not always the right way!

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
EofK
Mrs. Y
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 3,976


lolcat addict


« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 05:10:40 PM »

Devin, you're not the only one.  Smiley  I tend to stay out of political discussions at church because that's not really why I'm there in the first place and because I know I'll probably be shouted down without being heard (and half the time I can't gather my thoughts enough to back up my position anyway).  You're right in that there are several people in our parish who are very passionate about their brand of politics but it doesn't necessarilyi mean that's the "right" way to go about things.  I'm a bit of a pragmatist, though, so if politics isn't working to solve issues, what good is it?  Idealism is great fun but if it doesn't put bread on the table, let's talk about something that will (within reason, of course). 

Incidentally, this is the same reason why I don't like listening in on the parish council meetings... they tend to get derailed into "the past/current/future administration is going to wipe us all out" regardless of what the topic originally was.  We could be discussing who was going to dye eggs for Pascha and it would still come down to which politician is out to get us.
Logged

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 05:14:18 PM »

As they say, Small Towns, Small Minds.  Move out of Springfield or Missouri in general and you'll find Christians hold all sorts of political beliefs. 
Logged
EofK
Mrs. Y
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 3,976


lolcat addict


« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 05:16:38 PM »

As they say, Small Towns, Small Minds.  Move out of Springfield or Missouri in general and you'll find Christians hold all sorts of political beliefs. 

Springfield especially.  Wink For fear of making too political of a response, I'll stop there.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 05:16:53 PM by EofK » Logged

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 05:22:06 PM »

Maybe this thread could be moved to Politics?  Then I'd answer more freely as well. 
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 05:59:17 PM »

As they say, Small Towns, Small Minds.  Move out of Springfield or Missouri in general and you'll find Christians hold all sorts of political beliefs. 

Springfield especially.  Wink For fear of making too political of a response, I'll stop there.

Hmm.  Something tells me Salem is closed off tighter than a duck's butt.  Smiley
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 06:00:16 PM »

As they say, Small Towns, Small Minds.  Move out of Springfield or Missouri in general and you'll find Christians hold all sorts of political beliefs. 

Running away is the coward's creed.  Wink
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 06:04:33 PM »

Well, like right now I'm listening to Kevin Allen's "Illumined Heart" on Orthodoxy and Capitalism.

I will say though, I don't believe Socialism is good for the USA. In fact, it would be harmful. People here are too willing to take advantage of the system. Same for Capitalism... Both Capitalism and Socialism look good on paper, but because man is fallen and errs, neither are perfect.

I like capitalism for it's freedom and the free will it provides... BUT, I absolutely HATE the kinds of things it encourages and causes:

http://blog.kir.com/archives/megachurch.jpg

http://lal.cas.psu.edu/Research/Images/sprawlComp.jpg

Yet, while I also like socialism for it's equality and the other things it provides, I HATE it for this sort of thing:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6734/mustam2eenne198703ct7.jpg

My main reason for supporting what I support is NOT for the economic or governmental implications. Rather, I look at it from a urban design/architectural point of view.

I will also say I disagree with the program "Illumined Heart" on this issue: They said Christianity has flourished most under capitalism and democracy. Yet I disagree to an extent. Orthodox Christianity has flourished most under Empires and Monarchical governments. Non-Orthodox Christianity, which is influenced and changed by the culture it is in, has flourished under Capitalism and Democracy.
Yet while non-Orthodox Christianity has flourished under Capitalism, it is also being swallowed by it and dying under it.

________________

I do agree with some on the issue that the state should NOT replace the Church as the distributor of charity. However, the Church in America is not in a situation to distribute charity on a large scale.

________________

While Socialism also creates more poor. We ignore the fact that Capitalism actually subverts and subjugates people and keeps them at the status of being poor. I look specifically at the minorities in America that live in poor areas. They were put into those situations because of the government and economy. They are kept in that situation without opportunity to leave because of our government and economy. Socialism forces everyone to be equal... But Capitalism forces SOME people to be poor, instead of allowing them to be poor and grow out of it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:05:01 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2009, 06:19:11 PM »

You keep mentioning an "academic setting".  What exactly is your "academic setting"?  Academia covers so many faculties and subjects, are you being exposed to a narrow view or a wider one?  I am surrounded by Engineers, (Hard) Scientists, Mathematicians, etc. regularly, and social science / liberal arts major less often.  Though it is not always the case, but certain groups just tend to lean certain ways, while other groups lean another way.  This is true whether the subject is religion, politics, the economy, etc.  Make sure you are exposed to a wide variety of opinions and outlooks, whether at school or at Church, for every "academic" and "well read" source supporting one position, you will find one opposing it too.  I'm constantly at odds with those in the Hard Sciences, those in the Soft Sciences, those in the Liberal Arts, Christians, Agnostics, etc. since my views and opinions are just that, my views and opinions.   laugh  But I've always been an odd one and an outsider.   Tongue  You cannot please everyone, nor are you expected to.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2009, 06:21:06 PM »

Mainly an architecture setting, but I've also taken classes on...

Political Science (the basic 101 class)
Sociology (again, a basic 101 class)
A class on the psychology of American behavior

Before i took those classes, I was always very anti-Socialism and always equated it with Nazis, Michael Moore and Communists.

Then I took are more moderate stance on Socialism (that is, Democratic Socialism) and more of a pragmatic stance to governments and economies.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:24:47 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,902


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2009, 06:26:53 PM »

Maybe this thread could be moved to Politics?  Then I'd answer more freely as well. 
If you want, then just start a spinoff thread in Politics.  You don't have to wait for me to move this thread there. Wink  Judging from the OP, Devin intended this thread to be a discussion of how our Orthodox faith is to inform our political decisions, which makes this thread totally appropriate and even to be encouraged in the public Faith Issues board.  Otherwise, it would look as if we want to compartmentalize our lives and make politics something totally separate from Orthodoxy, which is just not the Orthodoxy Way.  If we were to discuss nothing more than different political opinions apart from any context of faith, then I would think differently.  As it stands, though, I see no reason to move this thread to Politics, so if you want to get overly political, I would encourage you to just start a new thread in Politics.
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 06:46:53 PM »

Actaully, Devin, the third picture you posted brought a pang of happy familiarity and homesickness to me. Instead of ugliness, I saw happy memories, babushkas and dedushkas sitting outside on  benches taking in the sun and catching up on the gossip, children playing together in the playgrounds, Saturday morning's rug beatings out on the post with the rug beater device, jars of compote on the balcony, a quick trip to the neighbourhood gastronom for a baton of bread and some cheese and sausages and maybe some icecream bar on a hot day,  and a whole host of other wonderful things...but you'd have to experience it firsthand to appreciate it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:47:38 PM by Rosehip » Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 06:51:12 PM »

I guess I see this:

http://www.logoi.com/travel/img/vienna_street.jpg
As more of a community than the so-called "commieblocks"
I also kind of see "commieblocks" as the same things as Housing Projects and Le Corb. developments like Pruit Igoe.

I'm a product of Jane Jacobs and the New Urbanist movement as well. So I tend to be very much against Le Corbusier style developments.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:53:03 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2009, 06:53:43 PM »

Ah, the above picture looks idyllic, but it takes a lot of money to live in such areas. What I mean, is in the soviet style dreary blocks of apartments, there can be a real sense of coziness, of community too. But unless you've experienced it personally, you wouldn't be able to understand...
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2009, 06:54:02 PM »

I don't know how to word this in a short, quick way. But what do you do when the opinions of those at your school differ with those of people in your Church?

I've found that in my past, I try to listen to more "academic" and "well-read" sources than I listen to average people on issues of politics and current events... Yet, I've found I've still been in the wrong when it comes down to it.
I listened to people who said that during a certain mayoral election, that one guy should be elected, so I supported him based on the idea that things would get better (from well-read sources) and yet, things actually didn't turn out very good.

I hear people at Church talk about Socialism and other governmental/economic forms as if they don't work well, and yet here at school, I hear the same exact thing said about Capitalism.

In one place I'm told those in our government are making big mistakes, and yet in the academic setting, I hear almost nothing about it.

I've always tend to favor academics over the tendencies of Midwestern conservative opinions, and yet, I am very conflicted because now those I respect the most in Church are making a very convincing argument that what I've come to accept in the world of politics and economics is actually not even very Orthodox.

I've tended to be more a Social Democrat/Democratic Socialist, which is fine and ok in school. Yet when I talk to others at Church, it seems I'm in a minority and often socialism is seen as bad.

I feel like at Church, if I hold my more socialist views, I'm seen as catering too much to the will of the people and control of the gov't over all things, then at school, if I express views held by those at Church, I'm seen as an uneducated, midwestern person who doesn't know as much about issues and listens too much too media and average people...

___________________

What do you do? Do I continue to trust and follow the teachings of the academics, or do I trust and follow those who have been Orthodox for much longer than I have been? (that is, on social and economic/governmental issues)

It is because when it comes to "knowledge", Eastern Orthodoxy is about "Experience", this is why EO wants seekers to actually attend a liturgy and not necessarily read books about it. The Academic world can make anything look good or bad on "paper", but the actual experience of the same subject is golden.

For that is how we are able to test the fruits and spirits of an idea/belief. We can test it by it's fruit.

So real World experience is always better, and this is why I no longer talk about Islam. I use to back when I was a Protestant, and on my way to converting to E.O., but now, I only allow those(Christians) who actually lived under Islam to talk about Islam.

Now I will talk about my own experience with African American converts to Islam, but that is as far as I will go......for I actually have experience in arguing with African American converts to Islam....as well as having friendships with African American converts to Islam.



Now I am saying this as someone who actually loves to read. I love academic stuff that try to interprete primary works correctly.......I could care less for other books.....I think they are a bunch of crap......for I don't want some-one's own personal view......I want the historical data and I want the interpretations to that data to not go astray too far from the actual evidence.....but that's just me.

But yeah, personal experience is better than a thousand books.






JNORM888
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 07:01:43 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 06:58:30 PM »

Rosehip, what is it like in-person "experientially"?

I think in America the association with those developments is those like Cabrini Green, Pruit Igoe, etc... (gangs, crime, violence, anarchy, lawlessness, poverty etc...)

I know I've spoken to a fellow student whose from the Czech Republic who has said that Le Corbusier style developments are failing and being torn down.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:59:26 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 07:01:06 PM »

Ditto, Rosehip.  I have pleasant memories of living in Soviet built housing Cheesy  I came down with a cold this week (too much Easter festivities I guess, how else do I get a cold when it is 100F / 37C out?) and was remember that if I were still living with my host family in Kyrgyzstan - this would have elicited an endless supply of fermented mare's milk, kefir, tea, sea-buckthorn jam to put in my tea, etc.  We even lived in a стлиновка.  The good old days!        

As they say, Small Towns, Small Minds.  Move out of Springfield or Missouri in general and you'll find Christians hold all sorts of political beliefs. 

Running away is the coward's creed.  Wink

I'm not talking about running away.  Rather, simply realising that honest Christians have a wide spectrum of political beliefs and that one can still be a good Christian and be a socialist, a capitalist etc.  

Although I would recommend not letting a few professors on soapboxes sway you too much.  Be critical of everything they say, have an open mind, use your university's library and don't be afraid to be yourself.  
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 07:05:49 PM »

I'll start a separate topic on Soviet style projects... Please comment there! Smiley
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 07:10:43 PM »

Ditto, Rosehip.  I have pleasant memories of living in Soviet built housing Cheesy  I came down with a cold this week (too much Easter festivities I guess, how else do I get a cold when it is 100F / 37C out?) and was remember that if I were still living with my host family in Kyrgyzstan - this would have elicited an endless supply of fermented mare's milk, kefir, tea, sea-buckthorn jam to put in my tea, etc.  We even lived in a стлиновка.  The good old days!        

As they say, Small Towns, Small Minds.  Move out of Springfield or Missouri in general and you'll find Christians hold all sorts of political beliefs. 

Running away is the coward's creed.  Wink

I'm not talking about running away.  Rather, simply realising that honest Christians have a wide spectrum of political beliefs and that one can still be a good Christian and be a socialist, a capitalist etc.  

Although I would recommend not letting a few professors on soapboxes sway you too much.  Be critical of everything they say, have an open mind, use your university's library and don't be afraid to be yourself.  


If you are a christian, then you will have to be a "different kind" of socialist, capitalist.......ect.

If you live in a country where "socialism" reguires you to be an Atheist or Agnostic......then obviously you can't be a "socialist" and a "good" christian too.

In our country, we have extreme secular humanism, so you can't be a "good" christian and an extreme secular humanist too. You can be a different type of "humanist", but you can't be the same kind as the Atheists and Agnostics.

There is a difference.......for not everything is good under the Sun. Christians who live in an Egaliterian(I spelled it wrong) State must always worry about politics, and the different philosophical under-pennings that drive both domestic and foriegn policy.......For we are always one generation away from flip-flopping.

From having things that are for us......to having things that are against us.




JNORM888
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 07:12:18 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2009, 07:12:00 PM »

Rosehip, what is it like in-person "experientially"?

I think in America the association with those developments is those like Cabrini Green, Pruit Igoe, etc... (gangs, crime, violence, anarchy, lawlessness, poverty etc...)

I know I've spoken to a fellow student whose from the Czech Republic who has said that Le Corbusier style developments are failing and being torn down.

Who am I to say? It's not fair of me to use my "experience" in those housing complexes as a "priviledged" westerner, but, yes, all that was there. Crime, violence, etc. But somehow, all the same, life was good, pleasant. Many people had dachas out in the country to which to escape on weekends. There were forests nearby and a lovely cathedral and women's convent to be reached via a footpath through the forest. We often spent time in the forests and meadows in the summer months roasting shashliki, weaving wreathes out of wildflowers. It was, looking back, a life of simple joys, and happy in its own right.  I lived simply, dressed as the poor, and was never harmed, never touched. "Our" mafia, our banditi (those in our area), they were bad, yes, but they respected the religious, and were relatively harmless towards us. People struggled, they suffered, but they were still somehow, happy in their own way. The evenings were filled with animated discussions on interesting topics.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 07:17:39 PM by Rosehip » Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,902


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2009, 07:12:24 PM »

I'm not talking about running away.  Rather, simply realising that honest Christians have a wide spectrum of political beliefs and that one can still be a good Christian and be a socialist, a capitalist etc.  
Yup.  Nothing in the corpus of Orthodox dogmatics automatically requires that we all formulate the same exact political views.  As we become more enlightened by Orthodox doctrine, we will be able to discern the pros and the cons of most any political ideology as it compares to the Orthodox faith.  But each of us must develop a personalized response to the Faith--we cannot do otherwise, lest we lose our individualities.  Some of us will be led by our faith-formed consciences to advocate one particular political viewpoint, while others of us will consider another viewpoint more important.  We will often be led to disagree, in fact, but no singular point of view is necessarily more Orthodox than another just because it's the point of view that your convictions lead you to construct.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2009, 07:13:51 PM »

Thread started on Soviet housing projects:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20896.new.html#new
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2009, 07:17:28 PM »

If you are a christian, then you will have to be a "different kind" of socialist, capitalist.......ect.

If you live in a country where "socialism" reguires you to be an Atheist or Agnostic......then obviously you can't be a "socialist" and a "good" christian too.

Those critters are few and far between these days.  I'm not sure why the Soviet Union always comes up in these debates as when you get right down to it, there is remarkably little difference between a rightist or leftist dictatorship.  When I say socialist, I mean more along the Swedish model - which AFAIK doesn't mandate atheism for party membership.  
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2009, 07:19:31 PM »

I'm not talking about running away.  Rather, simply realising that honest Christians have a wide spectrum of political beliefs and that one can still be a good Christian and be a socialist, a capitalist etc.  
Yup.  Nothing in the corpus of Orthodox dogmatics automatically requires that we all formulate the same exact political views.  As we become more enlightened by Orthodox doctrine, we will be able to discern the pros and the cons of most any political ideology as it compares to the Orthodox faith.  But each of us must develop a personalized response to the Faith--we cannot do otherwise, lest we lose our individualities.  Some of us will be led by our faith-formed consciences to advocate one particular political viewpoint, while others of us will consider another viewpoint more important.  We will often be led to disagree, in fact, but no singular point of view is necessarily more Orthodox than another just because it's the point of view that your convictions lead you to construct.

If there is a thing as "a lesser of two evils" then there must also be "a greater of two goods" so one view can be better than another one. There are different degrees of "good" just as there are different degrees of "evil".

So really it's about "priority". What are our "Priorities". Depending on what we value the most .....that is what our politics will be. Is money #1 in our lives? If so then money issues will be the most important political things to you.

If God, Church and family are the most important things to you then your politics will focus on things that favor those things.


So it's about the proper P's!!!!




JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2009, 07:23:25 PM »

If you are a christian, then you will have to be a "different kind" of socialist, capitalist.......ect.

If you live in a country where "socialism" reguires you to be an Atheist or Agnostic......then obviously you can't be a "socialist" and a "good" christian too.

Those critters are few and far between these days.  I'm not sure why the Soviet Union always comes up in these debates as when you get right down to it, there is remarkably little difference between a rightist or leftist dictatorship.  When I say socialist, I mean more along the Swedish model - which AFAIK doesn't mandate atheism for party membership.  


Well in America, if you made it through highschool, undergrad, andmaybe grad school.....then you would know that in America....in the United States of America Atheistic teachers and professors are like T.V. evangelists!!! They evangelize students into Atheism & Agnosticism. There is alot of pressure to become an Atheist if you want to advance in the sciences.

And if socialism keeps advancing in this country then you won't be able to be a politicion unless you are an advocate of Atheism.







JNORM888
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 07:24:30 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2009, 07:30:17 PM »

^^  From personal experience, I have to agree with that (the school part anyways).  Agnosticism (more so than Atheism, I find) is king in the hard sciences.  It is not uncommon to find people ridiculed for their beliefs that cannot be empirically proven.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2009, 07:31:54 PM »

If you are a christian, then you will have to be a "different kind" of socialist, capitalist.......ect.

If you live in a country where "socialism" reguires you to be an Atheist or Agnostic......then obviously you can't be a "socialist" and a "good" christian too.

Those critters are few and far between these days.  I'm not sure why the Soviet Union always comes up in these debates as when you get right down to it, there is remarkably little difference between a rightist or leftist dictatorship.  When I say socialist, I mean more along the Swedish model - which AFAIK doesn't mandate atheism for party membership.  


Well in America, if you made it through highschool, undergrad, andmaybe grad school.....then you would know that in America....in the United States of America Atheistic teachers and professors are like T.V. evangelists!!! They evangelize students into Atheism & Agnosticism. There is alot of pressure to become an Atheist if you want to advance in the sciences.

And if socialism keeps advancing in this country then you won't be able to be a politicion unless you are an advocate of Atheism.

Right.   Roll Eyes

I've never been pressured to be an atheist and I'm in the humanities and social sciences.  
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 07:48:55 PM »

If you are a christian, then you will have to be a "different kind" of socialist, capitalist.......ect.

If you live in a country where "socialism" reguires you to be an Atheist or Agnostic......then obviously you can't be a "socialist" and a "good" christian too.

Those critters are few and far between these days.  I'm not sure why the Soviet Union always comes up in these debates as when you get right down to it, there is remarkably little difference between a rightist or leftist dictatorship.  When I say socialist, I mean more along the Swedish model - which AFAIK doesn't mandate atheism for party membership.  


Well in America, if you made it through highschool, undergrad, andmaybe grad school.....then you would know that in America....in the United States of America Atheistic teachers and professors are like T.V. evangelists!!! They evangelize students into Atheism & Agnosticism. There is alot of pressure to become an Atheist if you want to advance in the sciences.

And if socialism keeps advancing in this country then you won't be able to be a politicion unless you are an advocate of Atheism.

Right.   Roll Eyes

I've never been pressured to be an atheist and I'm in the humanities and social sciences.  



Well to each his own.


 I know what I experienced and that is all I can speak of.






JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,449



« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 09:10:16 PM »

^^  From personal experience, I have to agree with that (the school part anyways).  Agnosticism (more so than Atheism, I find) is king in the hard sciences.  It is not uncommon to find people ridiculed for their beliefs that cannot be empirically proven.

So they have no opinions on aesthetics?  Humanitarianism/genocide?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2009, 09:38:18 PM »

So they have no opinions on aesthetics?
Yes, I know some who frown upon anything "soft".  If it isn't an empirical judgment, it is fluff, etc.  Then there are some I know who say a mathematical proof is beautiful.  laugh

Humanitarianism/genocide?

Again, yes, I know of people like that.  Genocide merely being the the creature with the "mightier claws" disposing of the weak.  "Survival of the fittest" has changed due to technology, but typically following the same theory.  So nothing to bat an eye at.  Yet, I also have a friend who is hoping to get involved with EWB.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2009, 11:24:17 PM »

In architecture there is a theory (very popular BTW) that aesthetics, at least in terms of sculptures and anything without a provable, directly usable purpose is useless and shouldn't be included. mainly Minimalist architecture.
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2009, 11:38:10 PM »

I love minimalist architecture.  Reminds me of the KISS principle I am huge supporter of in computing.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,508


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2009, 11:53:34 PM »

In architecture there is a theory (very popular BTW) that aesthetics, at least in terms of sculptures and anything without a provable, directly usable purpose is useless and shouldn't be included. mainly Minimalist architecture.

Pity. I'm no fan of the overblown, cloying ornamentation of Baroque architecture or art, but obviously fans of Modernism would regard a traditional Orthodox church, or a temple of the Classical period as being not worth a fig. Philistines! It's worth comparing the lifespan of genuine architectural treasures, such as the aforementioned, with the lifespan of Modernist, minimalist architecture. In many cases, 30-50 years is all you'll get from the latter. This cannot be a coincidence.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 11:54:23 PM by LBK » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,902


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2009, 11:55:38 PM »

Please stay on topic.  Thank you.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2009, 01:29:43 PM »

Regarding politics, Devin, you need to remember that although Fr. A is a priest, he is also a person with feelings and philosophies of his own. At times he speaks the mind of the Church, and at times he speaks his own mind. You must agree with the Church (especially now that you've been baptized), but you do not have to agree with our priest. I certainly hold some very different political opinions from him and most of our parish (and for that matter, most of SW MO). Yet when it comes to the things of the Church, we are very much in line. So don't worry too much about it; just learn to discern which is immutable truth and which is passing opinion.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2009, 06:33:36 PM »

Oh I know, but it isn't just him, it's everyone together. I guess I'm so used to being in the university bubble here that I forget that i'm in SW MO.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.136 seconds with 65 queries.