OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 21, 2014, 10:24:10 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Confraternities of the Cord  (Read 1575 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« on: April 22, 2009, 09:46:28 AM »

I was wondering if this was ever a tradition in Orthodoxy? Are there cords that the Orthodox wear in honor of their saints, or is this purely a Catholic devotion? Thanks, and God Bless!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confraternity_of_the_Cord
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 11:49:48 AM »

I'm Catholic and I have never heard of this.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 12:09:40 PM »

I vaguely remember hearing talk of these from the more traditional nuns at school when I was a boy but haven't heard anything of it since.

I'd find it odd if there were some Orthodox version of this, too, but I don't know for sure.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 04:48:18 PM »

Does anyone know? The link, as well as other things I've read about it suggest that it is an extremely ancient practice, perhaps pre-schism. I am referring specifically to the tradition of wearing the rope as a lay person, not so much the fraternity portion of it.
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 05:04:58 PM »

Wikipedia's first documented date is 1439. Everything mentioned before that sounds like someone without actual evidence trying to imply antiquity. The practice itself sounds very late Medieval/early Counter-Reformation and I'm not surprised as I read through it to see the bulk of the dates for specific orders and documented instances falling betwee the very end of the sixteenth century and the start of the 18th.

Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 09:14:45 AM »

Wikipedia's first documented date is 1439. Everything mentioned before that sounds like someone without actual evidence trying to imply antiquity. The practice itself sounds very late Medieval/early Counter-Reformation and I'm not surprised as I read through it to see the bulk of the dates for specific orders and documented instances falling betwee the very end of the sixteenth century and the start of the 18th.
So, basically, it is not an ancient practice of the Church at all? The idea behind it doesn't sound bad, I just had trouble finding when, exactly, it started. It did mention St. Monica, the mother of Augustine, as the beginning of the cord wearing among the faithful. Does anyone know of where I would find something about this? Or is it just a tradition from much later?
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 09:59:55 AM »

Wikipedia's first documented date is 1439. Everything mentioned before that sounds like someone without actual evidence trying to imply antiquity. The practice itself sounds very late Medieval/early Counter-Reformation and I'm not surprised as I read through it to see the bulk of the dates for specific orders and documented instances falling betwee the very end of the sixteenth century and the start of the 18th.
So, basically, it is not an ancient practice of the Church at all? The idea behind it doesn't sound bad, I just had trouble finding when, exactly, it started. It did mention St. Monica, the mother of Augustine, as the beginning of the cord wearing among the faithful. Does anyone know of where I would find something about this? Or is it just a tradition from much later?

It mentions the use of a cord or cincture by Sts Monica, Augustine and Ambrose, but it also clearly states:

Quote
When, after the canonization of St. Nicholas of Tolentino, it came into general use among the faithful, Pope Eugene IV in 1439 erected the Confraternity of the Cincture of St. Monica, St. Augustine, and St. Nicholas of Tolentino, in the church of St. James at Bologna.


St. Nicholas of Tolentino died in 1305.  It seems to me that it is most definitely a post-schism medieval devotional practice of the Roman Catholic Church among the general laity in imitation of what appears to be a very unique and specific use among Sts Monica, Augustine and Ambrose.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 10:01:35 AM »

Quote
When, after the canonization of St. Nicholas of Tolentino, it came into general use among the faithful, Pope Eugene IV in 1439 erected the Confraternity of the Cincture of St. Monica, St. Augustine, and St. Nicholas of Tolentino, in the church of St. James at Bologna.


St. Nicholas of Tolentino died in 1305.  It seems to me that it is most definitely a post-schism medieval devotional practice of the Roman Catholic Church among the general laity in imitation of what appears to be a very unique and specific use among Sts Monica, Augustine and Ambrose.
Thanks very much brother. God Bless!
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 10:08:26 AM »

New Advent has some more info on the practice as it goes back to St. Monica.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04357a.htm
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 10:23:31 AM »

New Advent has some more info on the practice as it goes back to St. Monica.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04357a.htm
Great stuff, thanks. It did raise another question for me though namely:

"In the early Church virgins wore a cincture as a sign and emblem of purity, and hence it has always been considered a symbol of chastity as well as of mortification and humility. The wearing of a cord or cincture in honour of a saint is of very ancient origin, and we find the first mention of it in the life of St. Monica."
This seems to suggest that it is, in fact, not just peculiar to St. Monica, and a few others. I am confused.
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 12:27:35 PM »

No offense, but it seems like your confusion is arising from a desire to find something that just isn't there.

But a few observations:
Both the wiki and the New Advent site's only cite for the antiquity of the practice is the Life of St. Monica. However, I can't find any detail about the provenance of that Life. Late medieval Saints' lives are often less than reliable and full of anachronisms--in other words if the Life was composed at the time when 'cinctures' where first becoming a popular usage, it wouldn't be suprising if the author was projecting backwards based on a recent tradition.

However, even assuming that the Life is older/reliable, the description given is not of a common practice. It describes a private devotion undertaken by Saint Monica based on a private/personal revelation and then shared with a small group of friends. As such, one might compare it to something like St. John (of Shang-hai and San Francisco's) going barefoot. That's a private devotion with an extremely ancient pedigree (Moses and the Burning Bush) but not one that has ever been a *standard* practice. We know its origin and over the centuries certain Christians have been inspired to emulate it, but it has never been a formal or prescribed practice. If one wanted to start to go barefoot in emulation of St. John (or Moses) or to wear a cincture in emulation of St. Monica, I'd advise consultation with one's spiritual father, but otherwise it's purely a matter of personal devotion. There are no set standards or rules (obviously, in Late Medieval Roman Catholicism and afterwards there are but obviously you are looking for more than that).

Finally, if you follow the link in the New Advent site to their arcticle on 'cinctures' you'll find a different perspective on the origin. The actual cincture is not/was not a cord. It's a girdle (in the original sense of a thick belt). What is ancient about it is its use in ecclesiastical vestments where it has the origin of most vestments--that is, it was standard dress in Roman times; over time, secular fashion changed, but the clothes worn in Church by clergy remained static/conservative until the clothes item came to be seen as a strictly ecclesiatical item. And somewhere in the process, prayers were added to give the simple act of getting dressed a spiritual significance. Presumably, as the practice spread in the late Medieval West, laymen (and/or monks outside the Church) couldn't just start wearing what had become a formal vestment, but simplified it down to a 'cord'.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2009, 03:15:45 PM »

No offense, but it seems like your confusion is arising from a desire to find something that just isn't there.

But a few observations:
Both the wiki and the New Advent site's only cite for the antiquity of the practice is the Life of St. Monica. However, I can't find any detail about the provenance of that Life. Late medieval Saints' lives are often less than reliable and full of anachronisms--in other words if the Life was composed at the time when 'cinctures' where first becoming a popular usage, it wouldn't be suprising if the author was projecting backwards based on a recent tradition.

However, even assuming that the Life is older/reliable, the description given is not of a common practice. It describes a private devotion undertaken by Saint Monica based on a private/personal revelation and then shared with a small group of friends. As such, one might compare it to something like St. John (of Shang-hai and San Francisco's) going barefoot. That's a private devotion with an extremely ancient pedigree (Moses and the Burning Bush) but not one that has ever been a *standard* practice. We know its origin and over the centuries certain Christians have been inspired to emulate it, but it has never been a formal or prescribed practice. If one wanted to start to go barefoot in emulation of St. John (or Moses) or to wear a cincture in emulation of St. Monica, I'd advise consultation with one's spiritual father, but otherwise it's purely a matter of personal devotion. There are no set standards or rules (obviously, in Late Medieval Roman Catholicism and afterwards there are but obviously you are looking for more than that).

Finally, if you follow the link in the New Advent site to their arcticle on 'cinctures' you'll find a different perspective on the origin. The actual cincture is not/was not a cord. It's a girdle (in the original sense of a thick belt). What is ancient about it is its use in ecclesiastical vestments where it has the origin of most vestments--that is, it was standard dress in Roman times; over time, secular fashion changed, but the clothes worn in Church by clergy remained static/conservative until the clothes item came to be seen as a strictly ecclesiatical item. And somewhere in the process, prayers were added to give the simple act of getting dressed a spiritual significance. Presumably, as the practice spread in the late Medieval West, laymen (and/or monks outside the Church) couldn't just start wearing what had become a formal vestment, but simplified it down to a 'cord'.
Thanks very much. That was very helpful. God Bless You!
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.08 seconds with 39 queries.