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Author Topic: Has Anyone Else Noticed a Strong Roman Catholic Influence on this Forum?  (Read 12094 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« on: April 21, 2009, 03:52:20 PM »

... and quite frankly, I don't understand the strong Roman Catholic influence on this entire forum which I had thought was an Orthodox forum.
Really? Huh  I find this statement quite intriguing, particularly since I've not noticed such an RC influence on our forum in the 3+ years I've been here, the last two of which I've even spent reviewing posts as a moderator.  Would you care to elaborate on what you see as this RC influence so we can see it for ourselves?
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2009, 03:55:13 PM »

 At one time my attitude here was not the best but now I am genuinely trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy on its own terms (although I have no intentions of converting) and I desire to learn more about the similarities and differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Further, I would like to help correct any misunderstandings about Catholicism that are floating around but I have no intention of trying to convert anyone.
That all being said, is that the kind of Catholic influence that is being spoken of?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 04:01:08 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 03:55:28 PM »

Perhaps it's just the sheer presence of our resident Roman Catholics who are apparently allowed to actually post on here in violation of some obscure and very ancient Orthodox canon Wink

Or perhaps it's the forum's general policy to discourage outright caricatures of Roman Catholic doctrine?
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2009, 03:58:42 PM »

I really don't know how allowing Catholics to speak their minds and debate back and forth with us is a "strong catholic influence". Care to explain Douglas?
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2009, 04:01:38 PM »

Roman Catolics allowed to speak their minds openly?? IS OUTRAGE!
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2009, 04:08:38 PM »

I always considered myslef a Mild Greek Catholic Presence Grin
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2009, 04:09:27 PM »

Theres a strong roman catholic influence? In the forum for discussions between orthodox and RCs then I would probably agree.... On the board as a whole...... I haven't seen it in the 3 years I've been here.

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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2009, 04:11:00 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2009, 04:12:27 PM »

I think Papist might be Roman Catholic.  I'm not sure though.  It's just a hunch.
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2009, 04:12:53 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.
Don't forget lubeltri.
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2009, 04:13:28 PM »

I think Papist might be Roman Catholic.  I'm not sure though.  It's just a hunch.

Nah, I think he's a Copt.  You know, the ones with the other Pope.
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 04:15:47 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.
Don't forget lubeltri.

Oh, yes, he also posts quite often but not as often as that two.
I think Papist might be Roman Catholic.  I'm not sure though.  It's just a hunch.

Nah, I think he's a Copt.

Coptic Catholic Church's member? He might be.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 04:17:46 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 04:20:28 PM »

What you perceive is the Hidden Leadership of the Illuminati. It's long been obvious that this forum is really an organ for achieving the New World Order.


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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 04:21:35 PM »

What you perceive is the Hidden Leadership of the Illuminati. It's long been obvious that this forum is really an organ for achieving the New World Order.

And shaved Priests in every parish!
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 04:36:40 PM »

I think Papist might be Roman Catholic.  I'm not sure though.  It's just a hunch.
Reallllllllly? What gave it away?  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 04:37:40 PM »

What you perceive is the Hidden Leadership of the Illuminati. It's long been obvious that this forum is really an organ for achieving the New World Order.

And shaved Priests in every parish!
Luberti, Deacon Lance, and I are hear armed to teeth with razors, prepared to shave every Orthodox beard we see!!! Hehe. You have found us out!  Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 04:49:43 PM »

What you perceive is the Hidden Leadership of the Illuminati. It's long been obvious that this forum is really an organ for achieving the New World Order.

And shaved Priests in every parish!
Luberti, Deacon Lance, and I are hear armed to teeth with razors, prepared to shave every Orthodox beard we see!!! Hehe. You have found us out!  Cheesy

I've seen more than a few bearded Byzantines, friend.


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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 04:57:52 PM »

I think Papist might be Roman Catholic.  I'm not sure though.  It's just a hunch.
Reallllllllly? What gave it away?  Wink

Just a shot in the dark.

As for this supposed "influence", I'm not seeing it.

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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 05:04:36 PM »

Nah, I think he's a Copt.  You know, the ones with the other Pope.

We have one of those too, don't forget  Wink
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 05:06:20 PM »

Can't say I've noticed this influence myself. Unless you count the times I've asked questions about RCism or something. Does that count? Surely it's okay to ask questions once in awhile...
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 05:33:06 PM »

I can't see what there would be wrong with asking questions.

I

http://www.newadvent.org/
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 05:36:15 PM »

Now, was that really necessary? Huh And, btw, for some reason I thought you, AMM, were Orthodox Christian, but now I see you are RC! Shocked You learn something new every day...whew...
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 06:07:57 PM »

I never noticed any "strong Roman Catholic influence" on this forum. The two Roman Catholics who often post here, Luberti and Papist, and one Roman Catholic who is in the process of conversion to Orthodoxy, Carole, are very knowledgeable in their doctrine and nice, polite community members. They were never hostile to me because I'm Orthodox, and I never noticed them being aggressively anti-Orthodox. The same can be said about our now Orthodox brother Schulz when he was an Eastern Rite Catholic, and about Deacon Lance.
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 06:49:29 PM »

I'm a member of a Roman Catholic parish, but I doubt I've contributed to the aforementioned 'influence'.
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 07:15:51 PM »

I'm a member of a Roman Catholic parish, but I doubt I've contributed to the aforementioned 'influence'.

Not to my knowledge. Actually, I have always thought that you were Orthodox. Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 07:23:39 PM »

What about me? Huh? Huh? Am I the ONLY Evangelical Presbyterian? Do I get to exert a strong Evangelical Presbysterian presence? Remember EP stands for Evangelical Presbyterian, not something else.

Am I right?

Right!
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 07:33:27 PM »

I'm a member of a Roman Catholic parish, but I doubt I've contributed to the aforementioned 'influence'.

Not to my knowledge. Actually, I have always thought that you were Orthodox. Smiley

Well, at least in America, one can be a member of a Catholic parish, without actually being Catholic. (In other words, I don't receive Communion in the parish.) angel
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 07:54:24 PM »

I noticed it for sure ..  the new calendar believers here seem to be more ecumenically minded, and open to roman catholics and don't see a great gulf in difference.....
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 07:56:48 PM »

I noticed it for sure ..  the new calendar believers here seem to be more ecumenically minded, and open to roman catholics and don't see a great gulf in difference.....
I have horns too stashko!!!
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 07:58:56 PM »

And yes, I do understand the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. That is WHY I'm Orthodox and not a Catholic. Just throwing it out there.
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« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 08:05:33 PM »

I haven't noticed any such RC influence and I've been here a long time.

(I'm tempted to ask if I'm falling down on the job with there being no "strong Anglican influence"   Grin  But I'll be good. )

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »

And, btw, for some reason I thought you, AMM, were Orthodox Christian

I am, I think you have me confused with somebody else.

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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 08:11:15 PM »

I noticed it for sure ..  the new calendar believers here seem to be more ecumenically minded, and open to roman catholics and don't see a great gulf in difference.....

Shenanigans.  Just because we don't go out of our way to vent hatred for Catholics every chance we get doesn't mean we don't see a great gulf of difference.  Maybe we just find it more productive to focus on our own repentance than to focus on telling Catholics they're going to hell.
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2009, 08:21:32 PM »

Maybe we just find it more productive to focus on our own repentance than to focus on telling Catholics they're going to hell.

I agree, there are more important things to focus on.  Like letting people on the Revised Julian Calendar know they're headed for a hot place too.

http://credo.stormloader.com/endbyzan.htm
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« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 08:23:09 PM »

I noticed it for sure ..  the new calendar believers here seem to be more ecumenically minded, and open to roman catholics and don't see a great gulf in difference.....

I'm guilty in that I do not think that there is vast gulf between us and the Roman Catholics or other Christians. I believe that the gulf between the old and new calendarists is so minute that you can barely pass a human hair between them. At the same time, the gulf between us and the sects, whether or not they call themselves Christian, is indeed vast. Finally, I am ecumenically minded only in the sense that I can love and appreciate fellow Christians without agreeing with them or consenting to false unions.
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« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 08:24:06 PM »

Maybe we just find it more productive to focus on our own repentance than to focus on telling Catholics they're going to hell.

I agree, there are more important things to focus on.  Like letting people on the Revised Julian Calendar know they're headed for a hot place too.

http://credo.stormloader.com/endbyzan.htm
Ha, love it!
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2009, 08:26:31 PM »

Maybe we just find it more productive to focus on our own repentance than to focus on telling Catholics they're going to hell.

I agree, there are more important things to focus on.  Like letting people on the Revised Julian Calendar know they're headed for a hot place too.

http://credo.stormloader.com/endbyzan.htm

You sure like to stir the pot, don't you? A man after my heart but the referenced book is a bit too much. Funny, but over the top.
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2009, 08:50:36 PM »

I noticed it for sure ..  the new calendar believers here seem to be more ecumenically minded, and open to roman catholics and don't see a great gulf in difference.....

Shenanigans.  Just because we don't go out of our way to vent hatred for Catholics every chance we get doesn't mean we don't see a great gulf of difference.  Maybe we just find it more productive to focus on our own repentance than to focus on telling Catholics they're going to hell.


According to Holy Traditional Orthodoxy, once the separated from the arch of salvation the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church they lost it ,their Apostolic Succession, Their clergy and there Pope are just Lay people masquerading as clergy...

When has this changed among the Orthodox churches that the catholic church is a real church with real clergy and true apostolic succession....Was it When The Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras lifted the excommunication with the Pope of Rome,,
Thank God Almighty the Ecumenical Patriarch doesn't represent all the traditional orthodox Churches...
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2009, 08:54:00 PM »

... and quite frankly, I don't understand the strong Roman Catholic influence on this entire forum which I had thought was an Orthodox forum.
...

Me too, but I discovered it was my illusion, so I got over it.

I am not sure we have the same in mind, but I am not absolutely sure it's Roman Catholic influence, but a strong anti-Orthodox influence for sure.

If it is Roman Catholic, then I guess it is probably Jesuits. Malice against Orthodox voices here is quite strong, and they persistently try to strangle such voices.
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2009, 09:39:46 PM »

Perhaps it's just the sheer presence of our resident Roman Catholics who are apparently allowed to actually post on here in violation of some obscure and very ancient Orthodox canon Wink

Or perhaps it's the forum's general policy to discourage outright caricatures of Roman Catholic doctrine?


Why be confused by the facts?  LOL.

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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2009, 09:51:15 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.

I'm active too, just under Moderated status. Thus I do not post as much as I used to, though I still read daily.
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2009, 09:51:15 PM »

What you perceive is the Hidden Leadership of the Illuminati. It's long been obvious that this forum is really an organ for achieving the New World Order.

ROFL!  Cheesy

Incidentally, Ron Howard wrote an article this week insisting that we Catholics will like his movie!
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2009, 09:51:15 PM »

Now, was that really necessary? Huh And, btw, for some reason I thought you, AMM, were Orthodox Christian, but now I see you are RC! Shocked You learn something new every day...whew...

Not just RC, but uber-RC. If you notice, he's got a photo of Blessed Pius IX under his name.

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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 09:51:15 PM »

I'm a member of a Roman Catholic parish, but I doubt I've contributed to the aforementioned 'influence'.

Not to my knowledge. Actually, I have always thought that you were Orthodox. Smiley

Well, at least in America, one can be a member of a Catholic parish, without actually being Catholic.

Yes, in America, we have plenty of those!
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2009, 09:58:28 PM »

Now, was that really necessary? Huh And, btw, for some reason I thought you, AMM, were Orthodox Christian, but now I see you are RC! Shocked You learn something new every day...whew...

Not just RC, but uber-RC. If you notice, he's got a photo of Blessed Pius IX under his name.



Then, if it is so, why does he tell me he is Orthodox Christian? Undecided I for some reason never noticed that avatar before, unless it is a new addition?

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« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2009, 10:17:06 PM »

It's funny, you can find references to our site elsewhere on the net where people talk about how anti-Catholic we are...guess "anti" and "influence" are in the eyes of the beholder.
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2009, 10:47:04 PM »

The Catholics are using mind control on me.  They do that.  Probably Jesuits.

One just commanded me to eat more of my kids Easter candy.

Where will it end.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a122.htm
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« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2009, 12:09:16 AM »

It's funny, you can find references to our site elsewhere on the net where people talk about how anti-Catholic we are...guess "anti" and "influence" are in the eyes of the beholder.

Indeed. People will project whatever they want.
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« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2009, 12:29:05 AM »

I've been here long enough to have seen a few things.  Traditionalists claiming that this site is too liberal...  Liberals claiming that this site is too traditionalist...  Greeks complaining of a Slavic bias...  Slavs complaining of a Greek bias...  Catholics griping that we're too anti-Catholic...  One thing I have not seen until today, though, is someone claiming that this Orthodox forum is too heavily influenced by Roman Catholics.  That's a new one for me.
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« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2009, 12:36:59 AM »

I really don't know how allowing Catholics to speak their minds and debate back and forth with us is a "strong catholic influence". Care to explain Douglas?

Sure. When I looked for an Orthodox forum on which to discuss things pertaining to the Orthodox Church, I believed that this forum might fill that need. But in the few weeks I've been a member here, I see several posters who appear to have very strong personalities and act as Roman Catholic apologists in a number of threads. I've no objection to Roman Catholics asking questions (in the appropriate folders) and debating points of theology (which is not my cup of tea since I see it as a colossal waste of time... I'm not much of an ecumenist, I'm afraid). But I have an issue when threads are begun in the non-debating areas of the forum (some by Orthodox members) that involve Catholic theology (i.e. the recent discussion of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, the appropriateness of our praying the rosary.. to name two). I've no interest in praying a rosary nor in praying the chaplet of Divine Mercy. If I had, I'd be Roman Catholic. They're non-issues for me. Granted, as I posted elsewhere, there's not much theologically wrong with them BUT then again... there's not much wrong with hi-lighting my bible, singing evangelical songs of worship, spinning a Tibetan prayer wheel and so forth. However, I've no need for these things since I have the banquet supplied by the Holy Orthodox Faith. Some Orthodox members here want to pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for whatever reason... no doubt encouraged by the Catholic members. I say, why have a Twinkie when you can have a full-course meal in Orthodox devotions? And why are these Catholic items even being raised? Isn't there enough Orthodox fodder for discussion without our trying to incorporate Catholic theology, Catholic devotions, Catholic practices? I fail to understand how this is going to assist me in my Orthodox life and in my spiritual journey.

I know... it's not the politically correct thing to actually put words to this but then, I'm not politically correct. I make no apologies for being in love with the Orthodox Church. It is the "right" worship and the "right" belief... period. I don't need to add any other devotions nor make any changes in her theology (i.e. change our view of original sin, change our view of papal infallibility, try and better understand the filioque and the new word games being played by Catholic spin-meisters).

So... yes, I believe there is a strong Catholic influence on this forum and it both surprises and distresses me to a degree.
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« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2009, 12:40:27 AM »

Well, you caught me.  I am switching to Orthodoxy to tear down the machine from the inside.  Go Pope!
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« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2009, 01:01:26 AM »

But I have an issue when threads are begun in the non-debating areas of the forum (some by Orthodox members) that involve Catholic theology (i.e. the recent discussion of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, the appropriateness of our praying the rosary.. to name two).
The recent discussion of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy was started by a Protestant considering conversion to Orthodoxy, which totally fits the purpose of the Convert Issues forum.  The fact that an Orthodox poster with sympathies toward Catholic spiritual practices hijacked the thread doesn't change that.

As far as the thread on the appropriateness of Orthodox praying the Rosary:  That thread was actually started in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion board where such a discussion of the topic should have been started.  Please note that the OP also asked whether the Rosary is used in Orthodox churches of the Western Rites.  I fail to see how this is inappropriate for where the thread is located.

Can you give us examples of discussions of Catholic doctrines and practices located outside the Orthodox-Catholic or Orthodox-Other Christian boards?  I know of a thread on the Immaculate Conception in Faith Issues, but I've been very careful to regulate that thread to make sure it remains focused solely on discussing an Orthodox Christian response to the Immaculate Conception.  So, other than that, any examples?
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« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2009, 01:16:25 AM »

I wouldn't necessarily say there's a strong Roman Catholic influence per se.  I do feel that there is a seemingly strong catechetical deficiency among a great many Eastern Orthodox Christians (and I most definitely place myself in that category).  As regarding the OP, I think there are several ways to look at it.  First, there are Roman Catholic posters here who, quite naturally, will defend their beliefs if and when they are misunderstood or presented falsely.  In fairness, the moderators allow them to give their input as much as possible.  Secondly, there are those who have come from a Roman Catholic background and who still have a degree of devotion to the traditions they grew up with.  This is natural.  But it is also something they might struggle with as well and are simply voicing their thoughts in an effort to work it out.  In addition, as long as they are not proselytizing here, the matter is probably best left to them and their spiritual father.  

In a not so off-topic side note, I am deeply troubled by the swipes we take at each other.  The snarky, hurtful comments we make (and I am just as guilty of this!) towards one another is only to our shame and is far more dangerous than any Roman Catholic influence, imo.  Undecided  
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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2009, 03:37:08 AM »

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.
EORGE
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« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 03:38:02 AM »

When you come to think of it, Orthodoxy (especially Orthodoxy found online) often seems to find itself concerned with Catholicism. Even in real-life Orthodoxy, EO Christians frequently find themselves in acrimonious debate about the Catholic Church. I would say that interaction with and reaction to Catholicism make up one of the chief influences on Orthodox theological discourse over the past 4 or 5 centuries. So when you come to think of it, I don't think frequent talk about Orthodoxy as related to or against Catholicism is unusual for this board.
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 08:56:57 AM »

When you come to think of it, Orthodoxy (especially Orthodoxy found online) often seems to find itself concerned with.

I think there's an inferiority complex at work which explains the insecurity exhibited.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 09:04:23 AM »

I don't care what Catholics believe. Never was one, nor was any member of my family for the past four generations. And we're Irish.
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« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2009, 09:37:15 AM »

...an Orthodox poster with sympathies toward Catholic spiritual practices...
What could have given anyone that idea?  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2009, 09:52:47 AM »

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.
EORGE

Now that's comedy!
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« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2009, 10:01:15 AM »

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.
EORGE

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« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2009, 10:02:08 AM »

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.
EORGE

Post of the Month Nominee!  Cheesy
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« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2009, 10:07:36 AM »

I really don't know how allowing Catholics to speak their minds and debate back and forth with us is a "strong catholic influence". Care to explain Douglas?

Sure. When I looked for an Orthodox forum on which to discuss things pertaining to the Orthodox Church, I believed that this forum might fill that need. But in the few weeks I've been a member here, I see several posters who appear to have very strong personalities and act as Roman Catholic apologists in a number of threads. I've no objection to Roman Catholics asking questions (in the appropriate folders) and debating points of theology (which is not my cup of tea since I see it as a colossal waste of time... I'm not much of an ecumenist, I'm afraid). But I have an issue when threads are begun in the non-debating areas of the forum (some by Orthodox members) that involve Catholic theology (i.e. the recent discussion of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, the appropriateness of our praying the rosary.. to name two). I've no interest in praying a rosary nor in praying the chaplet of Divine Mercy. If I had, I'd be Roman Catholic. They're non-issues for me. Granted, as I posted elsewhere, there's not much theologically wrong with them BUT then again... there's not much wrong with hi-lighting my bible, singing evangelical songs of worship, spinning a Tibetan prayer wheel and so forth. However, I've no need for these things since I have the banquet supplied by the Holy Orthodox Faith. Some Orthodox members here want to pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for whatever reason... no doubt encouraged by the Catholic members. I say, why have a Twinkie when you can have a full-course meal in Orthodox devotions? And why are these Catholic items even being raised? Isn't there enough Orthodox fodder for discussion without our trying to incorporate Catholic theology, Catholic devotions, Catholic practices? I fail to understand how this is going to assist me in my Orthodox life and in my spiritual journey.

I know... it's not the politically correct thing to actually put words to this but then, I'm not politically correct. I make no apologies for being in love with the Orthodox Church. It is the "right" worship and the "right" belief... period. I don't need to add any other devotions nor make any changes in her theology (i.e. change our view of original sin, change our view of papal infallibility, try and better understand the filioque and the new word games being played by Catholic spin-meisters).

So... yes, I believe there is a strong Catholic influence on this forum and it both surprises and distresses me to a degree.

I really take issue with what I think you are saying (unless I misunderstand you).

On the issues, I agree with you: there is no point in engaging in non-Orthodox practices.  And saying there is no spiritual benefit to praying the Rosary for an Orthodox is not a violation of "political correctness."  There are several people on this forum who routinely say exactly this type of thing.

What I take issue with is your saying, "why are these issues being raised on an Orthodox forum?" I don't know you so I don't know how wide and broad your exposure is to Orthodox people, cultures, and parishes, clergy, etc.  I consider that I have a lot of broad exposure. And this may shock you, but I find that most average Orthodox people have some exposure and some interest in non-Orthodox devotions and customs, whether they be Roman Catholic, Protestant, New Age, self-help, or Muslim.  So the debate and discussion you see here is quite reflective of the real world Orthodox experience.  So it may not be an issue for YOU, but it sure is an issue for a lot of people.

Now, it's my hope that this site can be educative, and I think that there are many Orthodox people who are able to offer theological and historical reasons as to why we should not engage in such things.  Maybe I am reading your complaint wrong, but are you suggesting we should not let people ask questions like this at all? That if they get asked, we should do what, punish people? Shut them down? Delete their posts? Tell them "Orthodox people don't do this, and you can't even talk about it?"  What exactly are you suggesting?

As far as these strong Roman Catholic apologists, at least two of them have been moderated numerous times when they cross the line. So I am not sure how our moderation is not working as it should.  Why do we let Catholics post here? Because of fairness, and because we want to bring people in to our "house."  Anecdotal evidence suggests we have made several converts from this site btw.

If someone is looking for a place to basically get information about Orthodoxy that does not involve tough questions and discussions, they could go to orthodoxinfo.com or one of the diocesan websites. But this is a forum, and as such, you are going to find people with honest questions, and they are going to disagree about the answer sometimes.
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« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2009, 11:31:26 AM »

Thanks for the information, Father. Obviously I was wrong in my assessment of the forum in that I did not truly understand the purpose of the forum nor did I take the time to educate myself on the religious affiliation of some of the posting members here. Of course people should be free to ask questions and join in discussion (which has to be a two-way street if it is to be worthwhile). My perceptions, it would appear, were wrong. I do, however, stand by my contention that the Catholic practices being advocated for Orthodox members, are for the most part a non-issue (for most Orthodox Christians at least). But that is another story entirely. I'll try and be more circumspect in the future.
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« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2009, 03:05:53 PM »

Thanks for the information, Father. Obviously I was wrong in my assessment of the forum in that I did not truly understand the purpose of the forum nor did I take the time to educate myself on the religious affiliation of some of the posting members here. Of course people should be free to ask questions and join in discussion (which has to be a two-way street if it is to be worthwhile). My perceptions, it would appear, were wrong. I do, however, stand by my contention that the Catholic practices being advocated for Orthodox members, are for the most part a non-issue (for most Orthodox Christians at least). But that is another story entirely. I'll try and be more circumspect in the future.

I can understand "where you're coming from". Often topic are opened by an RC member which are specific to an RC practice or belief and I wonder, "Why here?" At other times the topic is begun by an Orthodox member and I don't automatically ask, "Why here?"  Undecided ISTM that being less 'ecumenical' would take us down the CAF road to membership purges, useless propaganda, paranoia, and close-mindedness. I prefer what we have here now. Besides, I'm quite fond of several RC members here.  Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2009, 03:25:34 PM »

Douglas,

When ostensibly Orthodox posters recommend non-Orthodox things for Orthodox consumption, I must admit that I am bothered as well, and if someone is actively pushing a non-Orthodox agenda, I believe this is fair game for "report to moderator."

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2009, 04:42:22 PM »

I can understand the Orthodox posters here who say, "Why?" rather than "Why not?" with regard to adopting Catholic devotions. Of course, every person is different, and to each his own for his spiritual benefit. But both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are ancient churches with an overwhelming array of rich spiritual traditions---why venture into someone else's territory when there is so much you have not experienced in your own? (I know, I should talk---I've been to other countries but have never ventured west of Chicago in America!  Smiley ).



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« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2009, 05:26:30 PM »

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.
EORGE


I don't buy this above for a second ..As Orthodox Lurker Has pointed out And i Agree 100%, Traditional Orthodox Voices Are Being Strangled subdued Here ... We have a few martyrs here him being one and others...Pray for us all ye new Martyrs....
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« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2009, 05:33:33 PM »

New Martyrs of the Internet.  Interesting.
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« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2009, 05:47:50 PM »

I've been here long enough to have seen a few things.  Traditionalists claiming that this site is too liberal...  Liberals claiming that this site is too traditionalist...  Greeks complaining of a Slavic bias...  Slavs complaining of a Greek bias...  Catholics griping that we're too anti-Catholic...  One thing I have not seen until today, though, is someone claiming that this Orthodox forum is too heavily influenced by Roman Catholics.  That's a new one for me.

Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2009, 06:11:29 PM »

Now, it's my hope that this site can be educative....but are you suggesting we should not let people ask questions like this at all? That if they get asked, we should do what, punish people? Shut them down? Delete their posts? Tell them "Orthodox people don't do this, and you can't even talk about it?"  What exactly are you suggesting?

Greetings to All ~

I agree with Fr. Anastasios wholeheartedly.

Many of you here may already know from firsthand experience, that there are other forums out there that regularly do use all of the above listed sanctions as a normal course. As well meaning as such censorship may be in behalf of their own proprietary religious views and opinions, the moderators and administrators of such forums seem unnecessarily heavy handed and harsh in their actions.

By direct comparison, this forum is extraordinarily gracious in its tolerance of the varying beliefs and practices professed by fervent non-Orthodox Christians here, and is to be applauded for its patient forbearance and Christian charity in this regard, rather than criticized or condemned for such, IMO.  Wink

Peace and Light in the Love of Christ!

+Cosmos
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« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2009, 10:22:19 PM »

I just found more, this is spreading.  I don't want to suggest panic, but I think it's called for.

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« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2009, 10:52:57 PM »

New Martyrs of the Internet.  Interesting.

Its a virtual martyrdom.
You virtually don't even have to practice Christianity to attain it, and your reward is admittance to Level 3.
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« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2009, 11:10:08 PM »

Good grief, Roman Catholics here...really ?



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« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2009, 11:15:12 PM »

Good grief, Roman Catholics here...really ?

You haven't heard?  They're everywhere.  See this story from the news.

http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYIrishList/nastcartoon.jpg
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« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2009, 11:27:37 PM »

Dern mitergators...Katrina stirred them up from da swamps
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« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2009, 01:51:08 PM »

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.
EORGE

Lucky for me that I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read this or I'd be reading through a tinted screen.   Grin

Nice one.
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« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2009, 01:52:41 PM »

Good grief, Roman Catholics here...really ?

and other sorts as well 

<cue ominous music such as the shark theme from Jaws>
 Wink

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« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2009, 03:05:24 PM »

Don't forget us Roman/Byzantine/Greek/Ruthenian Catholics!  laugh

Douglas, thank you!  I have always assumed this forum had a slight anti-Catholic bias.  But now that I know the truth, I can join my compadres and take over!  Grin  Wink
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« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2009, 03:19:36 PM »

Don't forget us Roman/Byzantine/Greek/Ruthenian Catholics!  laugh

Douglas, thank you!  I have always assumed this forum had a slight anti-Catholic bias.  But now that I know the truth, I can join my compadres and take over!  Grin  Wink
To Arms! To Arms! lol
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« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2009, 09:15:14 PM »

I'm done with this one, back to the Beer Advocate...
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« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2009, 10:13:55 PM »

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia.  Now?  I'm starting to wonder.  Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own.  We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.
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« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2009, 11:53:38 PM »

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia.  Now?  I'm starting to wonder.  Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own.  We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.
I think I might know what you're talking about, but could you please clarify? Huh
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« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2009, 12:02:33 AM »

Rosaries and cilices and hairshirts ... oh my!
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« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2009, 12:05:48 AM »

I wouldn't push the ticket here, Gabriel. You'll come under the same scrutiny and accusations of paranoia as I if you do.  Wink
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« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2009, 12:51:14 AM »

Rosaries and cilices and hairshirts ... oh my!
Yeah, that's what I thought you were talking about.
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« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2009, 12:37:46 PM »

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia.  Now?  I'm starting to wonder.  Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own.  We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.

I'm confused; I just went and read through all those threads you are talking about, and I noticed that you didn't seem too upset with the Rosary in that thread. So what exactly is your concern?

I see basically one guy (PoorFoolNicholas) who is asking a lot of questions about Western devotions, and I see AMM, who is from a Carpatho-Rusyn background where there is still heavy use of RC devotions even in Orthodox parishes, supporting these devotions, in his usual edgy/curmudgeon type way; and I see Papist explaining the history of these devotions, and I see the young fogey, who has always been a part of this forum and has always espoused a kind of practical ecumenism between EO and RC, and I see Douglas arguing against them (and I joined in the fray now contra).  So which folks are demanding that EO start using Western devotions? And how is this becoming an RC influence? What does that even mean?
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« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2009, 12:42:59 PM »

I wouldn't push the ticket here, Gabriel. You'll come under the same scrutiny and accusations of paranoia as I if you do.  Wink

That's what happens when you make an accusation, express a concern, or make a complaint: people discuss it. It is a forum after all.  Cool
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« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2009, 02:36:16 PM »

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia.  Now?  I'm starting to wonder.  Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own.  We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.

I'm confused; I just went and read through all those threads you are talking about, and I noticed that you didn't seem too upset with the Rosary in that thread. So what exactly is your concern?

I see basically one guy (PoorFoolNicholas) who is asking a lot of questions about Western devotions, and I see AMM, who is from a Carpatho-Rusyn background where there is still heavy use of RC devotions even in Orthodox parishes, supporting these devotions, in his usual edgy/curmudgeon type way; and I see Papist explaining the history of these devotions, and I see the young fogey, who has always been a part of this forum and has always espoused a kind of practical ecumenism between EO and RC, and I see Douglas arguing against them (and I joined in the fray now contra).  So which folks are demanding that EO start using Western devotions? And how is this becoming an RC influence? What does that even mean?
I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.
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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2009, 02:52:53 PM »

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

Well, I once assisted in the choir at an OCA church, and the director asked us (the other choir folk) which version of the Creed we'd like to do.

Naturally, being the revolutionary type, I shot up my hand and said, "Let's do the one with the Filioque in it!"

Last time I assisted at that particular choir ...  Grin  Cheesy  laugh
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« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2009, 02:54:35 PM »

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

Well, I once assisted in the choir at an OCA church, and the director asked us (the other choir folk) which version of the Creed we'd like to do.

Naturally, being the revolutionary type, I shot up my hand and said, "Let's do the one with the Filioque in it!"

Last time I assisted at that particular choir ...  Grin  Cheesy  laugh
That's hilarious. Did you say it out natural compulsion or did you say it as a joke?
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« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2009, 03:06:22 PM »

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

Is that a rhetorical question?
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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2009, 03:25:21 PM »

I am the strong Catholic influence on this board. <flexing muscles>  Wink
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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2009, 03:33:29 PM »

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

Is that a rhetorical question?

Maybe not; he's at an ACROD parish - maybe he doesn't see any "RC devotions" being used there.  I've been to one ACROD parish that seemed like it did (or would be inclined to) at the time (Sharon, PA)... But the chapel in Mercer (which operates as a "Parish" for most of the year) does not.
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2009, 03:40:21 PM »

Sharon is the parish of Monsignor Michael Polanichka.

I'm not sure what the policy is on linking to blogs, but I would suggest looking at this:

http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/russian-easter-top-row-st-anne-banner.html

Since Young Fogey posts here, hopefully that's okay.  I put some comments in that entry.
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2009, 03:58:09 PM »

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

Is that a rhetorical question?

Maybe not; he's at an ACROD parish - maybe he doesn't see any "RC devotions" being used there.  I've been to one ACROD parish that seemed like it did (or would be inclined to) at the time (Sharon, PA)... But the chapel in Mercer (which operates as a "Parish" for most of the year) does not.

Yes, but I know that Aristokles, living in PA, must have exposure to more than one Carpatho Rusyn parish.
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« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2009, 07:23:46 PM »

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

Well, I once assisted in the choir at an OCA church, and the director asked us (the other choir folk) which version of the Creed we'd like to do.

Naturally, being the revolutionary type, I shot up my hand and said, "Let's do the one with the Filioque in it!"

Last time I assisted at that particular choir ...  Grin  Cheesy  laugh
That's hilarious. Did you say it out natural compulsion or did you say it as a joke?

I said it out of my natural compulsion to make jokes!  laugh
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« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2009, 09:11:55 PM »



  So which folks are demanding that EO start using Western devotions? And how is this becoming an RC influence? What does that even mean?

Christ Is Risen!

What I said was, " ... who are almost demanding ... " and by that I meant that after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint about certain RC practices (the thread you're talking about happens to be the Rosary thread, but there are other threads as well) but continue asking, what's going on?  If I ask a question and get an answer I'm not necessarily comfortable with, I re-evaluate whether or not I should ask again or just move on.  Now if I continue to discuss it in a "why not?" manner, people will naturally assume that I'm trying to get everyone to see things my way.  And when people acknowledge that "my way" is not applicable within the agreed upon tradition and I still continue to ask "why not?" and don't stop there but press further saying I like my way and really want to do this my way, many people will naturally assume that I never really wanted a discussion in the first place but, rather, only wanted validation for "my way".  Now granted, this may not be an outright demand that EO's be allowed to do and see things my way, but it's borderline, which is why I said almost in my original statement.

Now then; how is this becoming an RC influence?  It seems that the more people hear about something, the more they're desensitized to it.  This in itself isn't necessarily a big deal.  But in some cases it can be.  Most folks here are mature enough to make up their own minds, but some arguments should simply not be allowed to continue ad nauseum.  Now here some people will try to apply my comments to a much larger context than what they were intended, such as free speech, thought control yada yada yada.  But the OC.net is not a society; it's a forum about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.  Sure, folks of all stripes are encouraged to participate and this only enriches the site.  But enough is enough.  If a person wishes to be Eastern Orthodox, there is a boundary (and a very wide one at that) with which to work within.  No one is forced to become Eastern Orthodox, but if a person wants to continually push said boundary, can that person be said to be 'orthodox'?  I would argue no.  Is this a judgment?  Yes.  Not a condemnation, but there is an established standard that can be applied to see what is or is not 'orthodox'.  Yup.

Now, looking at the 'free-speech' aspect of this forum.  I realize that yourself as well as Father Chris must make difficult decisions as to what to allow and what not to allow.  Some decisions are easier than others.  But once a person has been befriended, it can cloud judgment and affect decisions.  This, then, is what I would term as influence.

If what I have said is offensive, then please forgive me.

 
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« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2009, 01:21:21 AM »

He is risen indeed!

Thank you, Gabriel. You've expressed beautifully what I tried to say so many posts ago.
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« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2009, 09:14:32 AM »

I only sporadically read or contribute here but from this distance I don't see a preoccupation with Rome beyond what's usual in online Orthodox fora. I think it happens because unlike real-life Orthodoxy (not juridically one church like Rome but a communion of ethnic churches remarkably alike but little if anything to do with each other, even less centralised than the Anglicans) these places are convert- and inquirer-driven (RC posters, defensive sometimes ex-RC responders). It's the nature of this beast. Born Orthodox are less likely to feel like they have to prove anything.

(RC influence online is different to residual 1930s Greek Catholic practice in ACROD. As I wrote in the comments thread under the linked blog entry above, some Metropolia now OCA parishes used to have Solemn First Communion which ACROD and the South Bound Brook Ukrainian Orthodox still do as First Confession. Nothing wrong with that.)

As for boundaries and pushing devotions, as I think I wrote in the Rosary thread, the boundaries control what's done in church. Outside the Middle East, no intercommunion. No mixing of rites from different traditions, and the bishops believe it's not in their power to judge on the holiness of people outside their churches (with a few exceptions: Constantine was baptised by an Arian, St Isaac the Syrian was in the Assyrian Church not a Chalcedonian Orthodox one, and New Skete, 1960s former Greek Catholics who joined the OCA in 1980, has the metropolitan's blessing to venerate St Francis) so in Orthodoxy there's no liturgical commemoration of 'the other side's' saints. (All of which more or less mirrors Rome on these matters.)

Devotion is free: at home you can do just about anything and venerate just about anyone. (Again essentially what Rome says.) One doesn't have to pray the Rosary even if one is RC but why not repeat prayers and commemorate things in the lives of Jesus and Mary both sides believe in?

Finally I think most Orthodox don't have a 'spiritual father'; they have a father confessor for the sacrament of confession. 'Spiritual fatherhood'/eldership is a monastic thing much to do with obedience as practised in that state of life, which would be intrusive and cult-like outside a monastery or convent.
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« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2009, 11:28:49 AM »

I respectfully disagree. First off, I have a spiritual father who is not my father confessor/priest. He's actually a priest in a different jurisdiction than my own. He's been a great blessing in my life and that of my wife's for many years now. I know of other Orthodox who also have this arrangement. Secondly, practicing devotions that are not traditionally Orthodox in the privacy of one's home is not recommended Orthodox procedure. What say you to my suggestion that I adopt a Tibetan prayer wheel but use the words of the Jesus Prayer? And there are a number of evangelical devotional practices that I could easily adopt. The problem with doing this is that it's the proverbial thin edge of the wedge. If I adopt the rosary and the chaplet of divine mercy, why not attend RC services for the stations of the cross? And as one's begins to incorporate these RC devotional practices into one's spiritual life, I can see that it's only a small step to begin to attend mass, particularly since for many their Orthodox churches are at great distance. After all, we've slowly started introducing Catholic practices into our lives so it's really not a stretch to begin attending their services. And it's not out of the question to say, "Well... since I don't really know what Catholics truly believe, why don't I enroll in an RCIA class to learn rather than accept this caricature of what Catholics believe from others online?"

None of these devotions are needed by Orthodox. They "are" questionable in their theological content in spite of what some here are arguing. But the real point is: they could easily lead us away from the true Church. If we truly believe that the Orthodox Church IS the Church, then why are we playing around with the devotional practices of other churches? If Orthodox is RIGHT worship and RIGHT belief, then it is complete and lacking nothing. Therefore there is no need to accept Twinkies when we have the full banquet.
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« Reply #100 on: April 25, 2009, 11:56:04 AM »

I agree with the "nature of the beast" construct.  We live on a planet that is roughly 1/3 Roman Catholic.  I tend to see Orthodoxy through a Catholic filter. Anytime you guys use a word that the Catholics use, it needs to be explained as to what you mean by it in contrast to what the RC says it means. Using the word "priest" is unfortuate, because what they mean and what you mean are so different, although there are similarities.  My view of history has been more of a Catholic and Western one than an Orthodox one.  This forum is a real eye-opener for me.  For example, I tend to think of WWI as between Germany and France, the US and Great Britain, and minor stuff happened elsewhere, of interest to some dusty historians, perhaps, but not significant.  The fall of the Ottoman empire and its relations with the EP was skimmed over in my US history book. I have learned a lot on this forum just reading about things from very different viewpoints.

The Orthodox are in the minority. Even the English language has mainly been formed in a Catholic context.  You probably get tired of explaining how you differ from Catholics, but until we get familiar with you, that is probably going to be the case.  And Orthodox and Catholics are curious about each other, and there are more Catholics, so there will be lots of Catholic questions.

I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing.
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« Reply #101 on: April 25, 2009, 12:31:57 PM »

I agree with the "nature of the beast" construct.  We live on a planet that is roughly 1/3 Roman Catholic.  I tend to see Orthodoxy through a Catholic filter.

[ . . . ]

And Orthodox and Catholics are curious about each other, and there are more Catholics, so there will be lots of Catholic questions.

I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing.

Actually, I have noticed, since -- and hold onto your seats! -- I read a number of trad RC blogs -- oh no! oh dear! whatever are we going to do? -- that for whatever odd reason, there has been a resurgence of interest among trad RCs in Eastern Christianity, be it Eastern Rite or Orthodox. That PBS film, for instance, of the woman Orthodox chanter went viral on Catholic blogs, too, for example. And when it happens and somebody inquires or equally probable, says something completely off the wall, I step in and help out -- oh no! does that make me part of the RC conspiracy to take over this site?

What he says it true. It ain't an Orthodox world. It's a Catholic world. Like it or not, we have to live with them, which if you think about it, isn't really that hard, considering how Christianity has been stripped completely out of the liberal mainstream Protestant churches. Every Orthodox should pray fervently that the RC church does not go the same way, because in many ways, the RCs (at least the real ones, as opposed to the liberal, lesbian singing nun types) are our strongest allies in the war against evil.

Live with it, folks.


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« Reply #102 on: April 25, 2009, 01:14:01 PM »

I only sporadically read or contribute here but from this distance I don't see a preoccupation with Rome beyond what's usual in online Orthodox fora. I think it happens because unlike real-life Orthodoxy (not juridically one church like Rome but a communion of ethnic churches remarkably alike but little if anything to do with each other, even less centralised than the Anglicans) these places are convert- and inquirer-driven (RC posters, defensive sometimes ex-RC responders). It's the nature of this beast. Born Orthodox are less likely to feel like they have to prove anything.

(RC influence online is different to residual 1930s Greek Catholic practice in ACROD. As I wrote in the comments thread under the linked blog entry above, some Metropolia now OCA parishes used to have Solemn First Communion which ACROD and the South Bound Brook Ukrainian Orthodox still do as First Confession. Nothing wrong with that.)

As for boundaries and pushing devotions, as I think I wrote in the Rosary thread, the boundaries control what's done in church. Outside the Middle East, no intercommunion. No mixing of rites from different traditions, and the bishops believe it's not in their power to judge on the holiness of people outside their churches (with a few exceptions: Constantine was baptised by an Arian, St Isaac the Syrian was in the Assyrian Church not a Chalcedonian Orthodox one, and New Skete, 1960s former Greek Catholics who joined the OCA in 1980, has the metropolitan's blessing to venerate St Francis) so in Orthodoxy there's no liturgical commemoration of 'the other side's' saints. (All of which more or less mirrors Rome on these matters.)

Devotion is free: at home you can do just about anything and venerate just about anyone. (Again essentially what Rome says.) One doesn't have to pray the Rosary even if one is RC but why not repeat prayers and commemorate things in the lives of Jesus and Mary both sides believe in?

Finally I think most Orthodox don't have a 'spiritual father'; they have a father confessor for the sacrament of confession. 'Spiritual fatherhood'/eldership is a monastic thing much to do with obedience as practised in that state of life, which would be intrusive and cult-like outside a monastery or convent.

yep, yep, yep, yep, yep and yep. Also, yep.

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I don't, it can be summed up in one word.
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« Reply #103 on: April 25, 2009, 02:56:38 PM »



  So which folks are demanding that EO start using Western devotions? And how is this becoming an RC influence? What does that even mean?

Christ Is Risen!

What I said was, " ... who are almost demanding ... " and by that I meant that after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint about certain RC practices (the thread you're talking about happens to be the Rosary thread, but there are other threads as well) but continue asking, what's going on?  If I ask a question and get an answer I'm not necessarily comfortable with, I re-evaluate whether or not I should ask again or just move on.  Now if I continue to discuss it in a "why not?" manner, people will naturally assume that I'm trying to get everyone to see things my way.  And when people acknowledge that "my way" is not applicable within the agreed upon tradition and I still continue to ask "why not?" and don't stop there but press further saying I like my way and really want to do this my way, many people will naturally assume that I never really wanted a discussion in the first place but, rather, only wanted validation for "my way".  Now granted, this may not be an outright demand that EO's be allowed to do and see things my way, but it's borderline, which is why I said almost in my original statement.

That is one possibility, but the other possibility is that the poster has been exposed to Western Rite Orthodoxy and has met such Western Rite Orthodox who pray the Rosary and they have provided him with some reasons why it's ok, and he sees people here saying it's wrong, and they may not be giving the best reasons, so he is trying to "drill down" the answers. Some people learn by asking questions repeatedly in slightly different ways.


Quote
Now then; how is this becoming an RC influence?  It seems that the more people hear about something, the more they're desensitized to it.  This in itself isn't necessarily a big deal.  But in some cases it can be.  Most folks here are mature enough to make up their own minds, but some arguments should simply not be allowed to continue ad nauseum.  Now here some people will try to apply my comments to a much larger context than what they were intended, such as free speech, thought control yada yada yada.  But the OC.net is not a society; it's a forum about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

It depends on what you mean, but I tend to think of our site as a community and a society besides just being a forum. I regularly have met people from the forum in real life and have made made friendships through the site. Some of our longest non-Orthodox participants such as Keble and Ebor I have met in person and know to be honorable people with whom I enjoyed spending a weekend once.  That was of course centered around Eastern Orthodoxy, but Eastern Orthodoxy does not exist in a bubble.

BTW, there is no such thing as free speech on this forum. Just to clear that point up. There are boundaries, and they are enforced. I am getting the feeling the problem is not that we don't have boundaries, but that you may not be comfortable with the boundaries we have (which is fine for you to think if that is what you think).

If someone is receiving consistently wrong information about Orthodoxy on an ostensibly Orthodox board, that is one thing, but as I said before, people in real life do do the things these people are talking about and their priests and bishops in some cases let them.  Maybe the questions are being repeated ad nauseum because what posters here are saying doesn't jive with the questioner's experience in real life.  The solution is of course to provide better and more comprehensive reasons.  If someone is being belligerent though, that is a different question.  Snarky also does not fit my definition of belligerent.



Quote
  Sure, folks of all stripes are encouraged to participate and this only enriches the site.  But enough is enough.  If a person wishes to be Eastern Orthodox, there is a boundary (and a very wide one at that) with which to work within.  No one is forced to become Eastern Orthodox, but if a person wants to continually push said boundary, can that person be said to be 'orthodox'?  I would argue no.  Is this a judgment?  Yes.  Not a condemnation, but there is an established standard that can be applied to see what is or is not 'orthodox'.  Yup.

Trying to stick in the lines of being specific to threads about RC devotions, again, these people claim that there are Orthodox bishops and priests encouraging this stuff. And frankly, I know they are telling the truth.

Quote
Now, looking at the 'free-speech' aspect of this forum.  I realize that yourself as well as Father Chris must make difficult decisions as to what to allow and what not to allow.  Some decisions are easier than others.  But once a person has been befriended, it can cloud judgment and affect decisions.  This, then, is what I would term as influence.

I don't actually know the posters that advocate RC practices as ok in Orthodoxy, except for the young fogey, and he knows what I think

I tend to view this forum like I would a parish. I have a Protestant guy that comes to one of my missions. At coffee hour, he always talks about his Protestant ideas. But he likes Orthodoxy, and keeps coming back. I wouldn't silence him at coffee hour, unless he insulted Orthodoxy (which he never does). In the same way, friendly or not, I would not treat anyone here that way either.


Quote
If what I have said is offensive, then please forgive me.

It's not offensive; I just tend to think that we have different ideas of boundaries.
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« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2009, 03:19:08 PM »

As for boundaries and pushing devotions, as I think I wrote in the Rosary thread, the boundaries control what's done in church.

and

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Devotion is free: at home you can do just about anything and venerate just about anyone. (Again essentially what Rome says.) One doesn't have to pray the Rosary even if one is RC but why not repeat prayers and commemorate things in the lives of Jesus and Mary both sides believe in?

That's been your consistent position for the entire time you have posted on the forum, and you do use your terms consistently and build positions consistently off those terms, which is highly commendable. I normally don't feel the need to engage you, since I already know we disagree, but due to the nature of the thread, the context, and the fact that there are many new posters here, I will step in to the fray respectfully, knowing full well that we have pretty much covered all of this before.

I disagree with your point though that there is some permissible dichotomy between one's parish life and one's personal prayer life, at least from an Orthodox perspective (if Rome says that about its communicants, fine).  The potential to be out of sync is great.

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Outside the Middle East, no intercommunion. No mixing of rites from different traditions, and the bishops believe it's not in their power to judge on the holiness of people outside their churches (with a few exceptions: Constantine was baptised by an Arian, St Isaac the Syrian was in the Assyrian Church not a Chalcedonian Orthodox one, and New Skete, 1960s former Greek Catholics who joined the OCA in 1980, has the metropolitan's blessing to venerate St Francis) so in Orthodoxy there's no liturgical commemoration of 'the other side's' saints. (All of which more or less mirrors Rome on these matters.)

I am not interested in really getting in to the nitty gritty on the specifics since we've "been there; done that," but I think some of the underlying assumptions are both interesting and controversial, and thus worthy of discussion.  The idea that something is ok in the middle East but not here, or that the Church can't judge the holiness of people outside its communion (read any of the liturgical texts celebrating the feasts of the Ecumenical Councils, where people who are called saints by other churches are anathematized) is certainly an opinion that some have, but does not seem to be held in force outside of ecumenical (I am deliberately saying ecumenical as opposed to ecumenist) circles.  The fact that you make recourse to New Skete as an example demonstrates this: the supporters of New Skete and what it is doing are few and far between, and their experiment has not been repeated. The context of New Skete says a lot as well; it's not just about venerating Francis and Claire, but extends to some rather idiosyncratic things like ripping apart liturgies, letting dogs walk around in Churches, denying or questioning the existence of demons, justifying breaking of fasts because "we work" (as if the monks in Egypt or Joe Layman in 2008 doesn't), etc.  It's not my intention to create a laundry list of "why I don't like New Skete" but rather point out that their situation is a) novel and b) as a whole rather idiosyncratic, so using them as a justification for why it is ok to venerate Francis and Claire may not be the strongest argument.

To tie that in to the bigger picture, the more I think about it, and now that I am a priest, it's hard enough to live a basic Orthodox life for most people.  So if we have people told that they must do X Y and Z at Church, but it's almost a free for all at home, and we cite examples of outliers as proof of this, we may be technically correct that such things happen, but ultimately I don't think it's for the best of someone's soul.

If there is some pastoral reason that someone coming over from heterodoxy has some particularly strong attachment to some devotion which is not intrinsically anti-Orthodox, that may be a pastoral sensitivity, but I would not say that that is on the same level as saying something is basically up to one's discretion since he is at home in private.

Quote
Finally I think most Orthodox don't have a 'spiritual father'; they have a father confessor for the sacrament of confession. 'Spiritual fatherhood'/eldership is a monastic thing much to do with obedience as practised in that state of life, which would be intrusive and cult-like outside a monastery or convent.

It may be a difference in terms; I don't think there is much difference between a spiritual father and a father confessor.  I don't know of any monks that try to give their lay confessees over-stated cult like advice, or any priests that try to mimic this, although I hear there are some monasteries that do things like that (my advice to people is to ignore any monk or priest that starts seeming too interested in certain 'private' matters or wants you to get a blessing to mow the lawn).  A spiritual father is a father of confession for most people, although I do agree with you that most Orthodox just go to confession like Catholics.

While I clearly disagree with your view, I will reiterate that I welcome your and others' takes on things as you represent real life Orthodox people's take on things. As such, it's fair game for discussion on a "forum."

Fr A
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« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2009, 01:04:06 AM »

I tend to view this forum like I would a parish. I have a Protestant guy that comes to one of my missions. At coffee hour, he always talks about his Protestant ideas. But he likes Orthodoxy, and keeps coming back. I wouldn't silence him at coffee hour, unless he insulted Orthodoxy (which he never does).
But, respectfully Father, there is one poster here who routinely disrespects Orthodoxy, even openly mocks it.  Daily.  So, it's not that I don't necessarily like said boundaries; they just seem to change a lot.


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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2009, 08:58:03 AM »

Thank you, Father. I know we'll never agree on much of this but I agree that in principle the intercommunion in the Middle East doesn't make sense. But it is longstanding custom and probably will never change.

(Longstanding custom has a lot of clout in real-life Orthodoxy... which also explains the 1930s latinisations in ACROD for example; they simply wanted to do what they'd always done. And why there never will be a 'Vatican II'/Novus Ordo imposed throughout an Orthodox church. In Greece and Russia, God love them, there'd be fistfights in the streets.)

In the Middle East Melkite and Antiochian Orthodox laity, although families identify as one or the other, functionally are the same church. They intermarry, in which the wife always joins her husband's church, go back and forth between the two sides' parishes, intercommune and have their children baptised at each other's churches. The only division is the clergy don't concelebrate. These two patriarchs of Antioch are near to each other in Damascus, Syria and are friendly. These aren't the 'evil ecumenist' bogeymen of online convert Orthodoxy as you know. They're simply ordinary Greek-rite Arab Christians.
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2009, 10:11:24 AM »

In the Middle East Melkite and Antiochian Orthodox laity, although families identify as one or the other, functionally are the same church. They intermarry, in which the wife always joins her husband's church, go back and forth between the two sides' parishes, intercommune and have their children baptised at each other's churches. The only division is the clergy don't concelebrate. These two patriarchs of Antioch are near to each other in Damascus, Syria and are friendly. These aren't the 'evil ecumenist' bogeymen of online convert Orthodoxy as you know. They're simply ordinary Greek-rite Arab Christians.

I can understand where they are coming from, YoungFogey. In a harsh environment for Christianity, both sides do not feel far apart at all. As a Catholic, I'd get a similar feeling in Oxford with the likes of Fr. Hunwicke.
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« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2009, 02:01:02 PM »

That is one possibility, but the other possibility is that the poster has been exposed to Western Rite Orthodoxy and has met such Western Rite Orthodox who pray the Rosary and they have provided him with some reasons why it's ok, and he sees people here saying it's wrong, and they may not be giving the best reasons, so he is trying to "drill down" the answers. Some people learn by asking questions repeatedly in slightly different ways.
Trying to stick in the lines of being specific to threads about RC devotions, again, these people claim that there are Orthodox bishops and priests   encouraging this stuff. And frankly, I know they are telling the truth.
Absolutely! Thank you. God Bless.
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« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2009, 02:10:01 PM »

But, respectfully Father, there is one poster here who routinely disrespects Orthodoxy, even openly mocks it.  Daily.  So, it's not that I don't necessarily like said boundaries; they just seem to change a lot.
Really? Disrespects?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2009, 08:37:30 PM »

But, respectfully Father, there is one poster here who routinely disrespects Orthodoxy, even openly mocks it.  Daily.  So, it's not that I don't necessarily like said boundaries; they just seem to change a lot.
Really? Disrespects?  Roll Eyes
Father Anastasios can guess in one shot who I was referring to (hint: it ain't you, friend.).
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2009, 08:58:06 PM »

Posting under the influence is a venial sin...
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« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2009, 09:28:11 AM »

Father Anastasios can guess in one shot who I was referring to (hint: it ain't you, friend.).
Man, I'm paranoid.....Sorry... Undecided
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« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2009, 06:56:51 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.
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« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2009, 06:59:59 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.
Don't forget lubeltri.
How about me?  angel

Well, since the quotes you are referring to were made on April 21, 2009; and you did not register here until April 30, 2009....

How could they have discussed you?
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« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2009, 07:11:55 PM »

I don't care what Catholics believe. Never was one, nor was any member of my family for the past four generations. And we're Irish.
That's odd because I read you conversion story and it seems you did inquire about Catholic beliefs regarding the Eucharist as a Protestant.
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« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2009, 07:15:03 PM »

I've noticed only two Catholic active members: Deacon Lance and Papist. I really appreciate their contribution to the forum.
Don't forget lubeltri.
How about me?  angel

Well, since the quotes you are referring to were made on April 21, 2009; and you did not register here until April 30, 2009....

How could they have discussed you?
True, but there's always room for fresh, new comments Smiley
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« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2009, 10:44:58 AM »

I am the strong Catholic influence on this board. <flexing muscles>  Wink

My hero!
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« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2009, 10:08:10 PM »

I am the strong Catholic influence on this board. <flexing muscles>  Wink

My hero!

Papist can bench press an entire hardcover "Summa Theologica" because he eats his spinach?   Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2009, 10:19:12 PM »

I am the strong Catholic influence on this board. <flexing muscles>  Wink

My hero!

Papist can bench press an entire hardcover "Summa Theologica" because he eats his spinach?   Grin Cheesy
In leotards and leg warmers? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #120 on: May 26, 2009, 11:30:28 PM »

I am the strong Catholic influence on this board. <flexing muscles>  Wink

My hero!

Papist can bench press an entire hardcover "Summa Theologica" because he eats his spinach?   Grin Cheesy
In leotards and leg warmers? Roll Eyes
What are you suggesting? LOL
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« Reply #121 on: May 26, 2009, 11:31:15 PM »

I am the strong Catholic influence on this board. <flexing muscles>  Wink

My hero!

Papist can bench press an entire hardcover "Summa Theologica" because he eats his spinach?   Grin Cheesy
You have me pegged. This is exactly what I have been doing! lol
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« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2009, 01:56:09 AM »

I think Papist might be Roman Catholic.  I'm not sure though.  It's just a hunch.

Nah, I think he's a Copt. 
I always wanted to be a Cop police
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