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Author Topic: How do you give an Orthodox perspective on Islam?  (Read 4936 times) Average Rating: 0
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Fr. George
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« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2009, 12:00:49 AM »


Malcom X spent most of his life working for the Nation of Islam, which was a VERY violent and hateful group...

Define "very violent".

Virulently racist and 100% opposed to MLK's pacifist movement.  While X never did, many of his brethren were abusive to their wives also.

The Nation of Islam was actually quite peaceful in terms of day-to-day behavior. It didn't encourage killing people, or having riots, or fomenting revolution. It awaited God's Judgment on Western civilization, yes, but that would be God's doing, not man's.

Eh, sort of.  They encouraged the sometimes violent taking of the rights that belonged to African-Americans.

Now, if like Malcolm, you started speaking publicly about the inner foibles of Elijah Muhammad, sure, that could get you into trouble.

X had encountered true non-racist Islam in Mecca, and began to call Elijah out about it.  Truth is, the Elijah-bashing wouldn't have started without X's conversion to a non-political Islam.
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« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2009, 12:19:43 AM »

I thought X's trip to Mecca occurred after his break with Elijah?
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« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2009, 12:54:55 AM »

For the early Christians being entirely peaceful, they sure did love to desecrate the pagan temples whenever they could get away with it.  They would mar the images of the gods, steal many of the temples' gold and relics, and sometimes even burn them down.  This stuff really picked up after the Edict of Milan.

If that were happening today, then such people would easily be called terrorists.  "Radical Christianity", the media would call it!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 12:55:39 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2009, 09:29:35 AM »

I thought X's trip to Mecca occurred after his break with Elijah?

Not to delve too much further into this aside, but... Elijah's health was deteriorating (and quickly), and many of the lieutenants around him were very jealous of X's fame (something Elijah predicted).  But the trip to Mecca was the big turning point for X.

I'd be interested to hear (maybe from folks who remember it firsthand) the image of Islam that was being projected by the Nation, versus what we've seen lately.

(It is interesting to note that of the two big Civil Rights personalities of X and MLK, one was a womanizer and a drunk and the other wasn't, and most people guess wrongly when posed with the question of "guess who?")
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« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2011, 08:56:31 PM »




There was a big article in "National Geographic" about Pakistan a while ago, and it said that there is a very serious revival of Sufism there; it's a very interesting "mystical" sort of Islam, very peaceful, absolutely non-violent and striving to reach unity between different peoples and cultures.

That self-proclaimed Sufis are universally non-violent is a bit of a myth. One of the major Chechen jihadists is a Sufi.

Classically understood, Sufi's practice a 'mystical' or 'inner' path of connecting to God.  Sometimes, Sufi's conduct their research within the 'boundaries' of Islam but often times they fall outside the pale of Islam (if we understand 'Islam' as the sum total of the Qur'an and Hadith -but even here we run into definition problems as many Muslims mix Islamic beliefs with other beliefs such as Muslims from Indonesia who also incorporate animist beliefs or Muslims from Azerbaijan who incorporate Orthodox Christian beliefs sometimes).  

Sufi's, because of their willingness to go outside of 'orthodox' Islam to reach their goal of uniting with God, have been persecuted and at times been outright denounced as heretics worthy of the death penalty.  If we look at the meaning of the word 'jihad', we see that there are two meanings that run side by side.  'Jihad' is an Arabic word that comes from the tri-consonant root word 'jahd' or 'jhd' which means something like 'to make an effort' or 'to struggle'.  Understood in a religious context, where it is usually understood, it means to fight our impulses to sin against God and our fellow man and thus, to unite ourselves with God through love.  The lesser meaning of 'jihad' is to defend one's family, friends, country and religion against an attacker.  Most Sufi's almost exclusively employ the first or 'higher' meaning of jihad and so are far less prone to physical violence.  Western Sufism has almost entirely, save for the Arabic or Persian language, lost it's 'Islamic' connections.
I have been wanting to learn a lot about islam and comparative studies to orthodoxy. I see that many of the modern peaceful muslims ascribe to what Gabriel posted. I have a hard time saying that this is true islam personally i believe that the actions of their prophet should speak for the nature of the religion and he was a very violent greedy and  ambitious man, however i do believe he sincerely thought he was keeping the will of God. modern islam on a whole has various sects conflicting with the interpretation of the koran so there is no doubt that modern muslims dont even know what true islam is anymore... some say all Christians are at war with God for not following and deserve to die other say its much more of a physical thing such as opposition with force. As far as a religion goes I agree that Islam is not truly a religion the purpose of the organization is to increase sharai law, the supposed law of God. As before stated the adherence to the law is what makes you a muslim.


*Edit* I was hoping others could elaborate more on their understanding of orthodoxy and islam as i would love to learn more!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 08:58:19 PM by Seafra » Logged
Kyrillios Anthonios
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« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2014, 02:52:31 AM »

How the Christian Faith sees Islam:

1. Aspect of faith, specifically the Islamic confession (sahadat): Islam makes a creature (Muhammad) an object of faith together with the Creator (God). This is completely unacceptable to adherents of Monotheistic faiths. The equation of creature with Creator, borrowing an Islamic term itself, is the sin of shirk.

2. Aspect of practice, specifically moral (theoretical and practical): The life of Muhammad which is held up as the universal example for all Moslems at all place and at all time is completely unacceptable to every human being who is guided by reason and humanitarian values.

3. Aspect of prophetic claim, specifically the foundation of faith and practice: Muhammad's claim to prophethood is completely unacceptable because no signs and proofs of prophethood, namely miracles and or prophecies, have ever been given to substantiate this claim, in accordance with Divine Revelation regarding prophethood.
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« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2014, 03:19:42 AM »

How the Christian Faith sees Islam:

1. Aspect of faith, specifically the Islamic confession (sahadat): Islam makes a creature (Muhammad) an object of faith together with the Creator (God). This is completely unacceptable to adherents of Monotheistic faiths. The equation of creature with Creator, borrowing an Islamic term itself, is the sin of shirk.

That's not true; Muslims are quite clear about the fact that they do not worship Muhammad, which is why they reject the term "Muhammadanism", for instance. Muslims no more make Muhammad an object of faith than Christians do with the Virgin Mary (who is mentioned in the Creeds and myriad other places).

On the other hand, Sunni Muslims do consider the Quran to be eternal and uncreated, and believe it to be the Word in the same sense that Christians profess Christ as the Word (it eternally proceeds from the deity). Most Christians would regard that as bibliolatry (deifying a book) and do not, with the exception of some fundamentalist Protestants, ascribe a similar status to the Bible.

Quote
2. Aspect of practice, specifically moral (theoretical and practical): The life of Muhammad which is held up as the universal example for all Moslems at all place and at all time is completely unacceptable to every human being who is guided by reason and humanitarian values.

Arguably the same can be said about certain Old Testament figures, especially Moses, David, etc.

The difference however is that those figures are not held up as universal examples for Christians in the same way Muhammad is for Muslims. Even the Old Testament is quite clear that even the prophets were often very flawed individuals, in their personal and moral lives. So you're correct on this point.

Quote
3. Aspect of prophetic claim, specifically the foundation of faith and practice: Muhammad's claim to prophethood is completely unacceptable because no signs and proofs of prophethood, namely miracles and or prophecies, have ever been given to substantiate this claim, in accordance with Divine Revelation regarding prophethood.

Yep, Muhammad, like Joseph Smith, relied on private revelation ("you just have to trust me! I swear it's true!") whereas in both Testaments, most miracles and signs were very public.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 03:26:22 AM by Minnesotan » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2014, 03:20:09 AM »

One might consider the Ahmadiyya, who see themselves as 'Islam-Reformed' since they support a peaceful and non-violent Islam. Lahore Ahmadiyya see Muhammad as the Last Prophet; Qadiani Ahmadiyya deny that Muhammad is the Last Prophet. The Qadiani, understandably, are not considered Muslim by other Muslims.

Even further afield is equally peaceful and non-violent Baha'ism, which comes out of Iranian Shi'a Islam but which has developed into an independent religion, though still heavily Islamic.

Anjali's story of going from Hinduism to Baha'ism to Orthodoxy.

I have read about Ahmadiyya before. Ahmadis are persecuted in Pakistan in a way that has been widely described as apartheid. The Pakistani physicist Abdus Salam was an Ahmadi and won the Nobel Prize in 1979, but the Pakistani government pretends it never happened because as an Ahmadi he's not a "real" Muslim in their eyes.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 03:24:56 AM by Minnesotan » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2014, 02:10:50 PM »

Thank you... But my one issue is...
Is Islam a violent religion or is true Islam a peaceful religion?



My brother, I have read the whole Quran and made extensive notes on it, spoken to an Islamic scholar holding PHD in Islam and read a bit of Hadiths. I dont think it is a religion of peace, Islam means a complete submission.It is extremely violent, it preaches hate and mistrust towards Christians, especially Jews, and the rest of non Muslims. I am not saying that all of it is violent, but there is a lot of violence and anti kufar verses. Most Muslims are great people and peaceful peole, it is Islam that is not peaceful.

Jews and Chrsitians are the worst enemies of Islam as per Quran teaching.Not good this, is it.

 "Verily, the kuffar/infidels from the Ahlul Kitaab (the People of the Book i.e. Jews and Christians ) and the Mushrikeen shall live forever in the fire of Jahannam. These are the worst of creation. Surah 98. Verse 6. "

Jihad is mandatory in Islam- there is a link to some of the verses of the sword:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

There are about 164 verses of Jihad:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

Stick to Christianity, brother.

God bless.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 02:20:13 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2014, 02:58:51 AM »

If you say "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah", you automatically become a Muslim.

If you only say "There is no God but Allah", that doesn't make you a Muslim.

If you say "There is no God but Allah and Moses is a prophet of Allah", you don't become a Muslim either.

So while they think they are monotheists, in fact they become polytheists and musyirikun because their faith does indeed make Muhammad an object of faith together with God.
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« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2014, 10:27:06 AM »

"The central, root difference between Orthodoxy and Islam is that Orthodoxy affirms the Incarnation wholeheartedly and Islam wholeheartedly denies it. If you want to see what difference believing or not believing in the Incarnation makes, look at the differences between Orthodoxy and Islam."

The Incarnation: Orthodoxy, Islam, and the Reformation
http://jonathanscorner.com/incarnation/
That article gets better and better as one reads along. The clarity of style reminds me of better examples of Lewis. Fabulous read.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 10:30:40 AM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2014, 06:52:22 PM »

If you say "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah", you automatically become a Muslim.

If you only say "There is no God but Allah", that doesn't make you a Muslim.

If you say "There is no God but Allah and Moses is a prophet of Allah", you don't become a Muslim either.

So while they think they are monotheists, in fact they become polytheists and musyirikun because their faith does indeed make Muhammad an object of faith together with God.

Surely making something or someone an object of faith does not automatically imply worship. The Creeds mention the Virgin Mary. Surely that doesn't make Christianity polytheistic, even though in some sense Mary is an object of faith? I would venture to say that if you don't believe Mary was a virgin, then you're not a Christian because that would imply that Jesus was a mere man conceived by a human father.

Likewise we believe in the communion of saints; that's a necessary part of the Christian faith, but it doesn't imply that we worship the saints as gods. We also don't worship the Bible even though all Christians believe it's holy and inspired by God.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 06:53:47 PM by Minnesotan » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2014, 10:36:12 PM »

That's because our Faith is in essence Trinitarian and Incarnational.  We in effect confess both Ontology (Trinity) and Economy (Incarnation).  In all this the Object of Faith remains God, and the Economy of God is elaborated in the Panagia and the Saints.  The Church comprising the Panagia and the Saints are the very perpetuation of the Incarnation of the Son of God.

So definitely not the same thing.  Further it is not the Symbol of Faith that makes us Christians, but Regeneration by Holy Baptism into His Holy Orthodox Church.

It is not so with Islam, which defines its faith by the Shahada, which requires Muhammad as an object of faith.

The Christian Faith and the Islamic faith do not have the same paradigm and do not share the same theological outlook.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 10:37:01 PM by Kyrillios Anthonios » Logged
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