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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon  (Read 16940 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2009, 03:36:37 AM »

And I'm still stuck on the accusation that Met. Jonah has attacked Apostolic Succession itself.  This is a very serious charge.  It is nothing less than an accusation of heresy.

I'm disappointed.

I agree. While you may/may not agree with +Jonah and whether his apology was "heartfelt", it seems that +Gerasimos is just fanning flames and pulling accusations out of thin air. That was a stretch to connect +Jonah's statements with an attack on apostolic succession. I'm sure that's what His Beatitude had in mind...

And if +Gerasimos cares so much about the diptychs, maybe he should revise them for His All-Holiness, so that they commemorate +Jonah for what he is: the metropolitan of an autocephalous church in America.
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« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2009, 03:41:00 AM »

The carousel continues to go 'round and 'round...
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« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2009, 04:00:01 AM »

I agree. While you may/may not agree with +Jonah and whether his apology was "heartfelt", it seems that +Gerasimos is just fanning flames and pulling accusations out of thin air. That was a stretch to connect +Jonah's statements with an attack on apostolic succession. I'm sure that's what His Beatitude had in mind...
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« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2009, 04:23:09 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   
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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2009, 05:06:23 AM »

Sad times for the American Orthodox.  Hopefully something good comes out of all of this.  On the local parish level, I have not seen any uncharitable discussions between jurisdictions.  Everyone seems to be weathering it together as family in the faith.
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« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2009, 06:24:57 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

I havn't seen any of this in secular media.  Not even in the National Herald...and that's saying something.   Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2009, 06:35:06 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

I havn't seen any of this in secular media.  Not even in the National Herald...and that's saying something.   Shocked Shocked

All it's saying is that our favorite reporter is building up to a grand story on it.
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« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2009, 08:02:23 AM »

I agree. While you may/may not agree with +Jonah and whether his apology was "heartfelt", it seems that +Gerasimos is just fanning flames and pulling accusations out of thin air. That was a stretch to connect +Jonah's statements with an attack on apostolic succession. I'm sure that's what His Beatitude had in mind...
WOW!  Telepathic abilities!  I think I may have a lucrative job for you. Roll Eyes

Sometimes it is just difficult to spin things your way. I don't think that making fun of folks is one of them.  police
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« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2009, 08:42:57 AM »

Quote
It really is a huge ecclesiological disagreement, to say the least, between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and American Orthodox folks--cradle, convert, Greek or not, all kinds of people who have a different vision for the Church in the United States and hopefully the rest of North America (if our Canadian and Mexican brethren concur).

Something tells me there are "American Orthodox folks" who see this somewhat differently.  Maybe even some Canadian Americans as well.
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« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2009, 10:05:29 AM »

 Sad
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« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2009, 06:20:50 PM »

Quote
It really is a huge ecclesiological disagreement, to say the least, between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and American Orthodox folks--cradle, convert, Greek or not, all kinds of people who have a different vision for the Church in the United States and hopefully the rest of North America (if our Canadian and Mexican brethren concur).

Something tells me there are "American Orthodox folks" who see this somewhat differently.  Maybe even some Canadian Americans as well.

Unquestionably so. I would also guess that most Orthodox in North America share the Constantinople vision. The numbers who differ, however, are not insignificant.

As an aside (andnot as an effort to derail or otherwise beak a forum rule), I see that your jurisdiction has changed yet again. Just an observation; please do not dignify it with a response.
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« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2009, 06:44:30 PM »

Ok, sorry if that was obnoxious.  Basically all I'm saying is there's no single type of American Orthodox.  There's a bunch of different kinds.
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« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2009, 07:00:01 PM »

Ok, sorry if that was obnoxious.  Basically all I'm saying is there's no single type of American Orthodox.  There's a bunch of different kinds.

Of which you are.....?
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« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2009, 07:27:39 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.
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« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2009, 08:18:30 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.
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« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2009, 08:28:42 PM »

I have no problem with that at all.  The issues I had with Metropolitan Jonah's speech as I mentioned before was that he exaggerated and mis-stated a number of things.  That makes for a bad argument.  I welcome corrections, as I welcomed seeing the essay posted on OCA News dis-spelling some of the myths the OCA has propagated about itself.

I have never heard anyone in my diocese talk about the need for jurisdictional unity; and I mean it has literally never come up.  The only thing I have ever heard is that we need to keep ourselves distinct and protect our traditions.
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« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2009, 08:54:57 PM »

I have no problem with that at all.  The issues I had with Metropolitan Jonah's speech as I mentioned before was that he exaggerated and mis-stated a number of things.  That makes for a bad argument.  I welcome corrections, as I welcomed seeing the essay posted on OCA News dis-spelling some of the myths the OCA has propagated about itself.

Yes.

Too bad the essay posted on OCA news exaggerated and misstated a number of things and made no argument.

Quote
I have never heard anyone in my diocese talk about the need for jurisdictional unity; and I mean it has literally never come up.  The only thing I have ever heard is that we need to keep ourselves distinct and protect our traditions.

That's rather hard when your diocese keeps changing: what was it today again?
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« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2009, 09:23:33 PM »

Too bad the essy posted on OCA news exaggerated and misstated a number of things and made no argument.

I guess one is left to wonder then why a priest in the OCA would do such a thing.

I don't think he did though.

Clearly those myths are going to die hard, as was evidenced in the comments following the essay.
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« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2009, 09:30:11 PM »

Christ is Risen!

Too bad the essy posted on OCA news exaggerated and misstated a number of things and made no argument.

I guess one is left to wonder then why a priest in the OCA would do such a thing.

Dunno. Could it be related to what someone posted, that he is now with us Antiochians?

Quote
I don't think he did though.

Clearly those myths are going to die hard, as was evidenced in the comments following the essay.

Truth is immortal.

What myths?

Christ is Risen!

A very interesting read.
Interesting indeed. Of course, it piling statement after statement without citation or substantiation, and with little argumentation to connect it is a wee problem.
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« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2009, 09:32:56 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?   IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!  
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« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2009, 09:35:07 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?  
The canons require it.
Quote
IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!

Which is why the canons require it.
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« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2009, 09:46:34 PM »

Quote
What myths?

The thing is, you know.

In reality, I think you should contact the priest and correct him, have him post a retraction, etc.  He's the one you should worry about since he is spreading his exaggerations and misinformation.

Quote
Which is why the canons require it.

Then the ROCOR is non canonical (though I don't believe they are), since it exists specifically as a diaspora church outside its own historical territory.
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« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2009, 10:59:25 PM »

Christ is Risen!
Quote
What myths?

The thing is, you know.
Yes, I do know.

Which is why I repeat "What myths?"
Quote
In reality, I think you should contact the priest and correct him, have him post a retraction, etc.  He's the one you should worry about since he is spreading his exaggerations and misinformation.

I've only seen it spread here.

Quote
Which is why the canons require it.

Quote
Then the ROCOR is non canonical (though I don't believe they are), since it exists specifically as a diaspora church outside its own historical territory.

I admit I am unclear as to ROCOR's status within the Russian Church, let alone outside it.  But since the affected Holy Synod, i.e. the OCA, isn't bent out of shape over that (when the communion papers were signed in Moscow, I remember concelebrations  OCA-ROCOR broke out across the US), I see not reason at present to belabor the point.  In particular as there are those non-canonical groups which are on the march in the campaign to deny the existence of the OCA.  Then there's tomorrow's meeting of the sole-ruled Antiochians....
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« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2009, 11:52:18 PM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

Because we are both invisible and irrelevant to the secular media, and to most of Christendom for that matter, I don't think many others know about this little spat. I doubt most Orthodox lay people do.

But this is precisely the kind of thing that keeps us invisible and irrelevant in North America.

Where is the concern for evangelism and mission? This is all petty bickering.

One of the problems with Old World hierarchs is that they actually think this is a still a protestant Christian country and that their only concern should be tending to their little ethnic flocks over here. Don't steal sheep and don't proselytize. Dudes (not to be disrespectful, mind you) - those days are long gone and have been for at least 50 years, if not longer! Wake up!

This country is essentially secular. Governmentally it completely is. Culturally it is becoming ever moreso virtually by the month.

Even the evangelicals practice mostly a civil religion to prop up the throne, so to speak (the throne of a long-lost, nostalgic democratic republicanism - not parties - historical approaches to govt. with their loci in Washington/Adams/Hamilton on the one hand and Jefferson/Jackson on the other) In reality this is a country mostly governed by special interests and media polls.

Long ago most Americans vacated any sense of religious commitment that required sacrifice or giving up in any substansive way the living of the American dream of material prosperity, moral autonomy and consumeristic aquisition.

Some Roman Catholics, because they have a cogent and coherent moral theology and some radical reformed Christians, again because of a superior intellectual tradition, are fomenting some sort of faithful opposition to these trends. Also some in the Wesleyan holiness and anababptist traditions who live a counter-cultural lifestyle among the poor or in preserving local sustainability and the environment also bear witness against the cultural tsumami.

But,well, well, well - we Orthodox have the most counter-cultural tradition of all. But we'd rather wag on about who offended who, like a bunch of women. (as a comic aside, the thought just flashed through my mind of the wedding in Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Lets quit bickerin' about 'oo killed 'oo. This is supposed to be a 'appy occasion.") So let's quit bickering about who affended who.

Quit making our hierarchs out to be women in distress - let them be men! We don't need to fued for their honor! St. Nicholas punched someone in the nose in doctrinal debate! Do you forget that? These aren't little girls -these are men! Let them be men!

The gates of hell do not have to work very hard when the Church is its own worst enemy. The gates of hell may not prevail but we might be our own undoing, handing the game to them because we slap at each other like girls while missing the weightier matters of the times.

Let's be honest:

This country really needs the gospel. It really needs to be evangelized.

Sadly, I think most hierarchs, in North America and outside of it, are clueless to this reality.

Unfortunately, I think our canonical tradition and the varying interpretations of it and our competing jurisdictions (Sadducees and Pharisees, anyone?) make us ripe for continuing irrelevance.

But God will not be hindered by us and the gates of hell will not prevail - he will make the rocks cry out if necessary!

Thank God we have monastics. Without their prayers. all would be lost.

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« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2009, 12:19:08 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

Secular media cares nothing of Orthodoxy, at least not in the USA. Even more so in Michigan, where there's a Protestant church on every corner, even in the UP. Now if this was a Roman Catholic thing, they'd have a webcam stationed outside the pope's office, so you could get live 24-hour updates.
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« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2009, 01:52:51 AM »

Secular media cares nothing of Orthodoxy, at least not in the USA.

I can't think of any reason why they would.  Fine by me; leave us alone.
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« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2009, 09:30:57 AM »

Which is why I repeat "What myths?"

Founded in 17..., united before the October Revolution, etc.

I would think you should not waste your time arguing the point here, but challenge Fr. Oliver to correct or amend what he said.  He is saying something vastly different than what you hear in other places, and people are not receiving his bringing this to light as far as I can tell.

Quote
I admit I am unclear as to ROCOR's status within the Russian Church, let alone outside it.  But since the affected Holy Synod, i.e. the OCA, isn't bent out of shape over that (when the communion papers were signed in Moscow, I remember concelebrations  OCA-ROCOR broke out across the US), I see not reason at present to belabor the point.

But following the canons is not about whether or not the OCA is unhappy with somebody, its about the canons themselves.  I'm not a canon person, but maybe you could make the argument that the ROCOR for instance is "not canonical" for various reasons like having a ruling Metropolitan in someone else's church's territory, or existing in a way that it could only ever be present on the territory of other churches (being a diaspora church) or that it is simply organized as a church based on national or ethnic lines.  You could probably argue that the status of the OCA and MP and is "not canonical" for various reasons even if they agreed to the present set up between themselves; probably for many of the same reasons you could argue the ROCOR is "not canonical".  Maybe the ethnic dioceses of the OCA are "not canonical".  I have no idea.

We may all be one big can of "not canonical" in general.
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« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2009, 10:45:13 AM »


you could make the argument that the ROCOR for instance is "not canonical" for various reasons like having a ruling Metropolitan in someone else's church's territory, or existing in a way that it could only ever be present on the territory of other churches (being a diaspora church)

As far as I am aware the only canonical territory of another Church where you will find the Russian Church Abroad is the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.   After the Russian Revolution it was the monks and nuns of the Russian Church Abroad who were blessed by the Jerusalem Patriarch to provide continuing care for the pre-Revoluntionary Russian monasteries and church properties in the Holy Land. 

The Russian clergy of these monasteries serve the Liturgy on antimensia signed and supplied by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and he is commemorated at every church service as the ruling hierarch.   The Russian Church Abroad maintains no bishop on the territory of the Church of Jerusalem but the monasteries are overseen by an Archimandrite.  At this time it is Fr Joasaph (McLellan) who until recently was a Professor at Princeton.

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« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2009, 10:52:18 AM »


 Maybe the ethnic dioceses of the OCA are "not canonical".  I have no idea.


Yah what about this aspect of the OCA?  Isn't it a problem, especially with "ethnophiletism" in play? 
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« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2009, 11:58:48 AM »

you could make the argument that the ROCOR for instance is "not canonical" for various reasons like having a ruling Metropolitan in someone else's church's territory, or existing in a way that it could only ever be present on the territory of other churches (being a diaspora church)

As far as I am aware the only canonical territory of another Church where you will find the Russian Church Abroad is the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.   After the Russian Revolution it was the monks and nuns of the Russian Church Abroad who were blessed by the Jerusalem Patriarch to provide continuing care for the pre-Revoluntionary Russian monasteries and church properties in the Holy Land.  

Well, if according to Moscow the OCA is the Church with canonical jurisdiction over the United States, then ROCOR is overlapping an existing canonical jurisdiction here, with their own bishop of the US.  I'm not going to disparage them for this, since they're not the only ones who have overlapping hierarchs here.

The Russian clergy of these monasteries serve the Liturgy on antimensia signed and supplied by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and he is commemorated at every church service as the ruling hierarch.   The Russian Church Abroad maintains no bishop on the territory of the Church of Jerusalem but the monasteries are overseen by an Archimandrite.  At this time it is Fr Joasaph (McLellan) who until recently was a Professor at Princeton.

So it's not an overlapping jurisdiction - if they answer to the JP, and commemorate him, and have no bishop other than the JP over them, then they're clergy of the JP who happen to speak Russian (and then they're  not "ROCOR clergy" who happen to be in Israel/Palestine).
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« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2009, 12:03:50 PM »

Quote
Well, if according to Moscow the OCA is the Church with canonical jurisdiction over the United States, then ROCOR is overlapping an existing canonical jurisdiction here, with their own bishop of the US.  I'm not going to disparage them for this, since they're not the only ones who have overlapping hierarchs here.

Nor will I, but I'm betting there are people who have, will and could argue this is "not canonical".  In reading through places like OCA News I see that term used a lot, along with proof texting of canons.
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« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2009, 12:35:37 PM »

Which is why I repeat "What myths?"

Founded in 17..., united before the October Revolution, etc.

You seem to be confused about the difference between "fact" and "myth."

Since founded in 1794 is so well documented, I see no reason to bother with that.

As to united, I'll just give an example (I'm going to be posting more, Lord willing, in response to the question of my thoughts on Bp/Arbp/EP/Pope Meletios speech on his trip to America):
Quote
With the fall of Byzantium in 1453 and the rise of the Ottoman Empire, the Orthodox Churches in the Middle East suffered persecution, isolation, degradation, and a great decline due to the Protestant missionaries who came from Europe. The Russian Orthodox Church came to the aid of Her Sister Church, the Church of Antioch, spiritually and financially. She was able to open schools and monasteries, build churches and educate clergy. Their aid continued through the rise of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 but by the end of World War I, the Church of Antioch desperately needed financial assistance. During this period, when many of its faithful migrated to Europe and North and South America, Patriarch Gregory IV turned to the West for help. Following World War I, the Church of Antioch desperately needed financial assistance. During this period, when many of its faithful migrated to Europe and North and South America. Patriarch Gregory IV turned to the West for help. Following World War I, a delegation headed by Mr. Charles Emhardt, from the Episcopal Church in the United States, was sent to investigate the status of its Episcopal mission in Syria. It was while in Syria that His Beatitude, Patriarch Gregory, made contact with Emhardt. Arrangements were made to have a private meeting with Emhardt in the Orthodox Archdiocese Chancery in Beirut with Metropolitan Gerasimos, and Deacon Antony Bashir acted as a private interpreter. Emhardt proposed to assist the Church of Antioch on the condition that the Patriarch would recognize the validity of the Episcopal Church and its orders. Through this act of recognition, the Episcopal Church would do its best to ease the financial burden and lift the Church of Antioch from her fiscal needs.

      Obviously this condition was rejected by the Patriarch. However, during the conversation, Emhardt mentioned that in September 1922, there would be a general convention of the Protestant Episcopal Church in Portland, Oregon. The Patriarch considered the possibility of sending a delegation to this convention to plead the cause of the Antiochian Church. He was encouraged and so decided to send a delegation headed by Metropolitan Gerasimos and Deacon Antony, along with Archimandrite Victor Abo-Assaley, for the reason of visiting his relatives in the United States. In the book, The New Herodus, a quote from a Beirut newspaper stated,

The unknown author indicated that these delegates kept their meeting with Mr. Emhardt private. Even the Syrian Mission in North America. which was functioning under the Russian Archdiocese did not know about this delegation, until the brother of the Metropolitan of Zahle met them in France as they journeyed to the United States. He informed his relatives by telegram that this Eminence and a delegation would be coming to the United States. Upon their arrival, the delegates were welcomed by Metropolitan Germanos Shahadi, who then resided in Brooklyn. They were also visited by Archpriest Basil Kerbawy, the official representative of Archbishop Aftimios of Brooklyn, under the Russian Archdiocese. During their visitation, the delegation was exposed to the internal division within the Archdiocese and the Syrian Church in North America. After a short stay in New York, Metropolitan Gerasimos and Deacon Antony began their journey across the United States to Portland to attend the General Convention of the Episcopal Church.

After the falling asleep of Archbishop Victor Abo-Assaley on April 19, 1934, Antony Bashir was appointed Vicar of the Archdiocese awaiting the Patriarchal legate Metropolitan Theodosius of Tyre and Sidon, who was sent from Damascus to supervise the convention for the nomination of a bishop for the vacant Archdiocese. Among the candidates for the election were: Archimandrite Antony Bashir of Douma, Archimandrite Samuel David of Aitha and Archimandrite Agapios Golam of Beirut (all living in the USA). Following the intense dialogue and negotiations for the unity of the faithful in the United States and Canada, it was agreed that Archimandrite Antony Bashir would be consecrated Archbishop for New York and All North America, and later Archimandrite Samuel David would be consecrated as the Auxiliary Bishop of Toledo, Ohio. But this agreement was never consummated. On April 19, 1936, the day Archimandrite Antony was being consecrated Bishop, then elevated to Archbishop by Metropolitan Theodosius of Tyre and Sidon and Archbishop Vitaly of the Russian Church, at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Brooklyn, New York, Archimandrite Samuel was being consecrated bishop, then elevated Archbishop on the same day during the Divine Liturgy in Toledo, Ohio, by Archbishop Adam, Bishop Arseny and Bishop Leonty of the Russian Orthodox Church. This caused confusion and division among the fruitful in the United States and Canada, and for the ensuing years friction and mistrust continued, although attempts were often made for reconciliation. in 1939, Archbishop Antony was given the title Metropolitan of New York and All North America.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/hierarchs/antioch/former/nasr_life_antony_bashir.htm

Quote
Ladies and Gentlemen: The theme of our convention this year is Orthodox unity of faith. In 1995, we celebrated the centennial of our God-protected Archdiocese. Our journey to the kingdom began in 1895, when Archimandrite Raphael Hawaweeny arrived to these blessed shores of North America. On March 12, 1904, Raphael was consecrated Bishop of Brooklyn, New York and was the first Orthodox Bishop to be ordained in North America. Unfortunately, Bishop Raphael fell asleep in the Lord in 1915, having served only eleven rich years.

In 1917, Aftimios Ofiesh was consecrated Archbishop and served until 1933. Emmanuel Abou-Hatab was consecrated Bishop of Montreal and Auxiliary to Aftimios, September 11, 1928, and died May 30, 1933. Sophronis Bechara, who was the Bishop of the West Coast and Auxiliary to Aftimios, died in 1934. Archbishop Victor Abouassaly, who was consecrated as Archbishop of New York and all North America, with a praxis from the Holy Synod of Antioch, died April 19, 1934. Metropolitan Germanos Shehadi returned to Lebanon in 1933 and died in 1934.

Shortly after the departure of Hawaweeny, Metropolitan Germanos came to America to collect funds for the Archdiocese of Zahleh, Ba’albek and Dependencies. But instead of raising funds and returning to Lebanon, he stayed in North America and led a faction of our people who were loyal to Antioch. Thus, our people in North America became divided between those who were loyal to Antioch and those who were loyal to the Russian Synod. This was a dark period in our history and the struggle which ensued was dubbed “Russy-Antaky.” Consequently, congregations in the same city were divided. Parishes of the same faith were not in communion with each other. Neighbors were not talking to neighbors and relatives were against relatives. People who belonged to the same Church sued each other and ended up in civil courts. In other words, the Antiochian situation in North America was dismal and disgusting. Neither the Russian Synod nor the Antiochian Synod was able to put an end to this tragedy. By the end of 1934, however, all the bishop who were in the Antiochian arena in North America were dead; but as you will see, death did not solve the problem.

In 1935, Patriarch Alexander Tahan III delegated the late Theodosius Aboujaily, Archbishop of Tyre and Sidon and later Patriarch Theodosius VI, to come to North America, visit our parishes and find out who our people wanted as the Metropolitan Archbishop. According to his findings, Archimandrite Antony Bashir was the most popular and qualified. The Holy Synod of Antioch, based on the recommendation of Metropolitan Theodosius, elected Antony Bashir as Metropolitan of New York and all North America to succeed Archbishop Victor Abouassaly. Some of our people were against this recommendation and the election of Metropolitan Antony. Thus, on April 16, 1936, while Antony Bashir was being conse- crated Archbishop, on the same day and at the same time, Archbishop Samuel David was being consecrated in Toledo, Ohio, as Archbishop of Toledo and Dependencies. Unfortunately, the long dark night which began after the falling asleep in Christ of Raphael Hawaweeny, continued and the conflict, then, was between New York and Toledo. The same animosity among our people persisted. If you check the Minutes of the Holy Synod of Antioch between 1936 and 1970, you will be horrified with the contradictory decisions which were made during this period, vis-á-vis New York and Toledo. After my consecration as your Metropolitan in 1966, I was determined to put an end to this shameful tragedy, before this conflict put an end to my hopes and dreams of a united Antiochian Archdiocese and, consequently, a united Orthodox Church in North America.
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17070

Quote
While there was a vision for Orthodox unity in North America from the first pioneers, it did not take long for the sands of division to sprout on this fertile soil.  For the Antiochians, the Russy/Antaky struggle later evolved into the New York/Toledo battle.  During this period, the ammunition for strife came from inside as well as outside.  Many forces fueled the opponents against one another for over sixty years.
http://www.stnicholasmtl.org/Convention2007_M/Fr%20Anthony%20Gabriel.htm

In short, the Arabs were all under the Russian bishop, until the fall out from WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution.  And even then, Arabs were committed to the successors of St. Raphael ordained in the Russian Archdicoese as the first Orthodox bishop ordained in North America.  That in that fall out, many were peeled off to form what became the Antiochian Archdiocese doesn't change that fact.

Similarly,

Of course, the Amerindian Orthodox-Aleut, Tlingit, Kashaya Pomo, etc.-where in America first, and they were, and are, under the Russian/OCA bishops.


Quote
and the argument that might claim “there was a diocese on the continent dedicated to evangelizing the whole continent and, therefore, all Orthodox anywhere on the continent were to be subject to that diocese.”

Excessively simplistic:no one really claims a diocese on the continent until the CoG does so in 1918, and then makes Archb. Meletios of Athens, still resident in Athens (i.e. not in America) bishop of said "diocese."  By then, nearly two decades had passed since the Russian Church had organized its diocese into the Archdiocese of the Aleutian Islands and North America, with vicar bishops for Alaska, for the Arabs, etc. with bishops criss-crossing the continent visiting parishes in all corners of it.

Divisive: whereas the Russian Orthodox Church had organized and built the diocese that spaned the continent and all communities, neither CoG nor Constantinople had ANY direct part in building the Church in America, something the Chief Secretary admits and bemoans.  Case in point: when St. Tikhon went to Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in NYC in 1904, he was basically expelled, and the parish incorporated itself to prevent it being taken over by St. Tikhon, the only hiearch of a hiearchal Church, which the Orthodox Church is (the distinction is important for American law).  Anywhere else, this would be called schismatic: why is it acceptable in America?  In contrast, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Chicago (which predated the one in NYC) invited St. Tikhon to come serve in 1901, which he did.

So are we to place a canonical diocese on a par with the situation described below?  BY NO MEANS!

Quote
And now for the position of the priest, the pastor (ephemerios) of the community.  He has no power as far as the written constitution goes.  Thus we find a most anomolous condition in the Greek churches in America.  It works something like the worst side of the vestry system of the Episcopal Church parishes, without the legal rights of the rector, nor the possibility of intervention by the Bishop; or another analogy might apply in some instances,-Congregationalsim run wild in a mission of the Apostolic, Catholic, Eastern Church!  From afar the Metropolitan Archbishop of Athens (note: The Patriarch of Constantinople has ceded to the Holy Synod of Athens the charge of the Greek Orthodox missions in America) rules without the possibility of settling anything, much as the Bishop of London had charge of the Anglican parishes in this country before the Revelotion.  So the Greek priest is hired, and often "fired," by a parish committee composed usually of poorly educated peasants.  And thus come the wranglings and disputes and divisions into two rival church communities of a city; and thus the poor priests, sent out by the Holy Synod in response to the cry for spiritual help, sometimes find themselves as office boys at the mercy of their employers.  Moreoever, there are also some priests who have no right here; these are Macedonians, mostly of little education, who, coming to America, have slipped their bishop's jurisdiction and are ministering without authority wherever they can make the most money, sometimes underbidding and ousting the priests sent by a bishop. Of course, conditions are not everywhere bad in communities, but the system is sadly irresponsible.  The only solution seems to be a resident bishop for America; may his advent be soon!
(the same source has a nice summary (1913) of the Greek Orthodox Churches at that time)
http://books.google.com/books?id=RVV2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=Greeks+in+America+Galveston#PPA55,M1

Alas, that bishop, as far as the Greeks were concerned, was Bshp/Archbshp/EP/Pope Meletios.  I'm a little tired now, so I've have to post his report of his trip to America, where it is clear the GOARCH was founded in willful defiance of the canonical diocese.  For those who can't wait, look here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Uh4VnseTNZkC&pg=PA137&dq=Galveston+Orthodox&lr=#

And the point, made before the founding of the GOARCH:
Quote
The following interesting facts also must not be omitted although since we are dealing here with only Greek communities they must be consigned to a footnote: In Chicago in 1882 a Slavo-Hellenic union was formed adn called a Greek-born priest of Russian education to minister to all the Orthodox churchmen there.  It Seattle about the same date the Greek sailors who had settled there placed themselves under the Russian bishop, who provided a Greek priest, graduate of a Russian seminiary.  Also in Galveston, Texas, some Greek sailors established a church, but being unable to support it, gave it over to the Russian bishop, and the Divine Liturgy was celebrated i both languages.  But in all these places, as soon as the Greeks became numerous enough, they established their own purely Greek church communities under the jurisdiction of Constantinople or Athens.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RVV2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=Greeks+in+America+Galveston#PPA55,M1

The fact that the Greeks later rebelled doesn't make the unity of the Russian Archdiocese across North America any less a fact.

Quote
I would think you should not waste your time arguing the point here, but challenge Fr. Oliver to correct or amend what he said. 

Oh, if I had to chase down everyone posting misformation on the internet, my day would never be done.

Quote
He is saying something vastly different than what you hear in other places, and people are not receiving his bringing this to light as far as I can tell.

I've seen plenty of what he "brings to light" highlighted on any number of GO/EP sites: it fits their agenda.

Due to length, I'll have to pick up your thoughts on ROCOR on another post.
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« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2009, 01:26:00 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?  
The canons require it.
Quote
IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!

Which is why the canons require it.
[/quote]

From a strait forward reading of the canons (and I personally think the EP supporters - especially GiC - have made a good case on this point) the territory should be the EP's.  The other jurisdictions don't agree so the issue is who's interpretation of the canon.  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have.
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« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2009, 01:28:46 PM »

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You seem to be confused about the difference between "fact" and "myth."

Any good myth has any number of facts associated with it.  I think you should e-mail Fr. Oliver your objections so he can publicly correct himself.
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« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2009, 01:40:10 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?  
The canons require it.
IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!

Which is why the canons require it.

From a strait forward reading of the canons (and I personally think the EP supporters - especially GiC - have made a good case on this point) the territory should be the EP's. 
I've seen a lot of repition of the EP's assertion by GiC, but no arguement.  For thing, as I've shown, the EP disagrees with their assertion that Tomoi can be annulled.

Quote
Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome.  For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.  And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (ἴσα πρεσβεῖα) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.
As America is nowhere near the Pontic, Asian and Thracian dioceses, nor her canonical bishops of those diocese aforesaid, the EP has no claim on the American "barbarians."

Quote
The other jurisdictions don't agree so the issue is who's interpretation of the canon.
ALL (with the possible exception of Cyprus) autocephalous Churches, by word or by deed or both, reject the EP's interpretation.  So yes, the other jurisdiction DO agree that the EP is WRONG.

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have.
I do believe that is why it is being convened.
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« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2009, 01:55:28 PM »

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have. 
I do believe that is why it is being convened.

Wait.. you believe it is being convened "to harm," or "not to harm?"
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« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2009, 02:15:35 PM »

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have. 
I do believe that is why it is being convened.

Wait.. you believe it is being convened "to harm," or "not to harm?"

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspoar" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.
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« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2009, 02:41:05 PM »

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

There are enough issues with the Autocephaly and it's recognition to have them not invited on their own; if Moscow wants to include him in their own delegation, that sounds fine (and, if it's so important to the MP to have the OCA recognized as the Autocephalous Church of America, why don't they take the step to have him included in their MP delegation to get his voice in the room?  And why don't they *fold ROCOR into the OCA as a Russian Diocese like the Romanian and Albanian ones?*).

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspora" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Uh-huh.  The model for the process here will be used to figure out similar issues in areas like W. Europe, E. Asia, and Australia / NZ (or, "North and South George Islands" Wink Cheesy ).
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« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2009, 02:50:46 PM »

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have. 
I do believe that is why it is being convened.

Wait.. you believe it is being convened "to harm," or "not to harm?"

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspoar" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Yep, you've got it. Only way OCA is going to participate is at Moscow's invitation...yeah, I know. Not ideal.
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« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2009, 03:13:57 PM »

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

There are enough issues with the Autocephaly and it's recognition to have them not invited on their own; if Moscow wants to include him in their own delegation, that sounds fine

Evidently, not to the EP:
Quote
The submission of the diaspora to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean either Hellenization or violation of the canonical order, because it is only in this way that both the letter and the spirit of the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils is respected. The Mother Church knows, however, that such a submission is difficult to be accomplished under the present historical conditions. For this reason, and by employing the principle of economy, it was suggested and it has now become accepted in Pan-Orthodox level, that there will be local Pan-Orthodox Episcopal Assemblies in the diaspora (like SCOBA in the US). The principle of presidency is followed, namely the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate presides over these Episcopal Assemblies in order to preserve the necessary element of canonicity.

As you surely know, last October the Ecumenical Patriarchate summoned in Constantinople a Synaxis of the Primates of the Orthodox Churches. The Primates accepted the proposal of Patriarch Bartholomew to move ahead with the Pan-Orthodox preparatory meetings, within 2009, so that the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church take place as soon as possible. For the record, please note that this decision was reached thanks to the concession on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which accepted that the Autonomous Churches will no longer be invited as to avoid the thorny problem of the Church of Estonia in the relations between Constantinople and Moscow.

Besides displaying ignorance about SCOBA'S constitution, the Chief Secretary is less than truthful of why autonomous churches (which the OCA would be in the very least, according to the EP) aren't allowed even at the children's table.


Quote
(and, if it's so important to the MP to have the OCA recognized as the Autocephalous Church of America, why don't they take the step to have him included in their MP delegation to get his voice in the room?
Because the EP decided Estonia wasn't worth North America.
Quote
  And why don't they *fold ROCOR into the OCA as a Russian Diocese like the Romanian and Albanian ones?*)
Though I like to see that, I think that would have killed the reunion between Russia and ROCOR.  In the end that may, and should happen, but not today.  Maybe Met. Jonah could discuss that in Cyprus.

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspora" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Uh-huh.  The model for the process here will be used to figure out similar issues in areas like W. Europe, E. Asia, and Australia / NZ (or, "North and South George Islands" Wink Cheesy ).

As for as I know, there isn't an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of W. Europe, E. Asia and Australia/NZ (or for that matter, South America), there are not similar situations.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 03:16:31 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2009, 03:38:36 PM »

Besides displaying ignorance about SCOBA'S constitution, the Chief Secretary is less than truthful of why autonomous churches (which the OCA would be in the very least, according to the EP) aren't allowed even at the children's table.

See comment below.

Because the EP decided Estonia wasn't worth North America.

You know, I've seen you assert this multiple times without a shred of documentation, or other sort of proof.

Though I like to see that, I think that would have killed the reunion between Russia and ROCOR.  In the end that may, and should happen, but not today.  Maybe Met. Jonah could discuss that in Cyprus.

Um, so what you're saying is that the MP doesn't actually care that much about the OCA.  Figures, since they've left ROCOR, in addition to their other Patriarchal Parishes which are not under ROCOR, not in the OCA, and aren't attempting to find ways of getting +Jonah to the party.

As for as I know, there isn't an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of W. Europe, E. Asia and Australia/NZ (or for that matter, South America), there are not similar situations.

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.
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« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2009, 04:02:41 PM »

Besides displaying ignorance about SCOBA'S constitution, the Chief Secretary is less than truthful of why autonomous churches (which the OCA would be in the very least, according to the EP) aren't allowed even at the children's table.

See comment below.

Because the EP decided Estonia wasn't worth North America.

You know, I've seen you assert this multiple times without a shred of documentation, or other sort of proof.

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Father Ambrose, I seem to remember you posting something concerning the pull out of the Russians from the Council fo Ravenna, when the issue of the OCA was raised when the EP tried to hide behind the autonomy of the Estonians for why they were at Ravenna.

In the meantime, this will do.  Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev:
Quote
There are a number of autonomous and autocephalous Churches which, for various reasons, are not universally recognized in the Orthodox world. For example, there is the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America and the autonomous Orthodox Church of Japan: they were never invited to such dialogues because the Patriarchate of Constantinople does not recognize their current status. If the so-called Church of Estonia, which is an autonomous structure under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, should be invited, why not invite these other churches? Why, then, not invite the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which has an autonomous status under the Moscow Patiarchate? What about the autonomous Orthodox Church of Latvia? What about the Orthodox Church of Estonia that belongs to the Moscow Patriarchate and also has an autonomous status?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1925822/posts

Though I like to see that, I think that would have killed the reunion between Russia and ROCOR.  In the end that may, and should happen, but not today.  Maybe Met. Jonah could discuss that in Cyprus.

Quote
Um, so what you're saying is that the MP doesn't actually care that much about the OCA.  Figures, since they've left ROCOR, in addition to their other Patriarchal Parishes which are not under ROCOR, not in the OCA, and aren't attempting to find ways of getting +Jonah to the party.

No, I'm saying the PoM and the OCA have a NORMAL mother-daughter relationship, where the one doesn't speak for the grown daughter, and the other doesn't expect mom to fight all her battles.

I'll just reiterate, for now, that the PoM, ROCOR and OCA are fine for now.  Unlike a certain patriarchate with delusions of grandeur, who refuses to recognize the OCA.  A much bigger problem.

As for as I know, there isn't an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of W. Europe, E. Asia and Australia/NZ (or for that matter, South America), there are not similar situations.

Quote
And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.
For the canonical majority, there is.
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« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2009, 03:27:44 AM »

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.

Whether we're recognized or not, I'm still an Orthodox Christian. If the EP wants to pretend we're not here, go ahead. I guess I can pretend he doesn't exist either. How's that feel?

My point is this: Why is it that the so called "spiritual father"/the "first among equals" of Orthodox Christians can be so pious, but so petty? What would he lose from recognizing the FACT that there is an autocephalous church here? Renoun? Authority? MONEY? Who cares whether there were Greeks first or Russians first in America? The vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the USA aren't either one: WE'RE AMERICAN. Sure my father's father's father's father came here from Ireland, but you don't see me seeking an Irish Orthodox Church.

I'm obviously not for papal authority, but at least they don't have this problem. I've never heard anybody say "I'm Greek Roman Catholic" or "Russian Roman Catholic" or whatever. At least they're unified in their schism...
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« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2009, 03:44:02 AM »

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.

Whether we're recognized or not, I'm still an Orthodox Christian. If the EP wants to pretend we're not here, go ahead. I guess I can pretend he doesn't exist either. How's that feel?
Interesting strawman argument. Where do you get the idea the OCA is not viewed as Orthodox?
Quote
My point is this: Why is it that the so called "spiritual father"/the "first among equals" of Orthodox Christians can be so pious, but so petty? What would he lose from recognizing the FACT that there is an autocephalous church here? Renoun? Authority? MONEY? Who cares whether there were Greeks first or Russians first in America? The vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the USA aren't either one: WE'RE AMERICAN. Sure my father's father's father's father came here from Ireland, but you don't see me seeking an Irish Orthodox Church.

Maybe where you are. Here we're still very much ethnic parishes.
Quote
I'm obviously not for papal authority, but at least they don't have this problem. I've never heard anybody say "I'm Greek Roman Catholic" or "Russian Roman Catholic" or whatever. At least they're unified in their schism...

Relevance?
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« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2009, 03:58:32 AM »

Interesting strawman argument. Where do you get the idea the OCA is not viewed as Orthodox?

Maybe where you are. Here we're still very much ethnic parishes.

Relevance?

I didn't mean to imply we're not viewed as Orthodox, it was more to question how one could ignore the administration of an autocephalous church. My error in not making that clear.

I would argue this: why does ethnicity matter? That's what I was trying to get across with the "Greek/Russian Roman Catholic" comment. To me, ethnicity shouldn't matter. We say that Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, no matter where in the world you are. But to outsiders, it doesn't look that way. I loathe the question "Are you Greek or Russian Orthodox?" I'm not either. At the least, I'm American Orthodox. At best, I'm Orthodox. Just Orthodox. My heritage shouldn't matter.
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