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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon  (Read 17122 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 20, 2009, 11:42:13 AM »

http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX.

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 11:58:21 AM »

The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 12:03:27 PM »

The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 12:39:15 PM »

The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 12:42:27 PM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 04:14:50 PM »

He is a true leader for Orthodox Christians in North America!

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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 05:26:30 PM »

The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  Smiley

? could you please translate what you wrote, some of us have no clue what it says.
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 05:32:52 PM »

The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  Smiley
? could you please translate what you wrote, some of us have no clue what it says.
Ughh...
Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 06:20:59 PM »

http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX.

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."

Many Years to his Beatitude.
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 08:19:08 PM »

http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX.

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."


I am glad to hear this from Metropolitan Jonah.  His call for working together is definitely a good plan!  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 09:56:42 PM »

The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  Smiley

? could you please translate what you wrote, some of us have no clue what it says.
Christ is Risen!  Indeed He is Risen!

Arimethea has already done so (thanks), but I'll add that it is Coptic, mankind's oldest and longest continously used language.
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 12:04:01 AM »

Glory to God for giving us HB Jonah!
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 12:38:30 AM »

God forgives!  Many years to his Beatitude!
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 12:48:28 AM »

I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 12:55:58 AM »

I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 07:16:13 AM »

I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 07:51:20 AM »

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 08:05:38 AM »

I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

That's why I said I wonder what made him change his mind.  I think several of the other churches' hierarchs and maybe patriarchs said something to him about his statements.  He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.  The CS is a priest...so there is a little more leeway there.  Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 08:09:02 AM »

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.

This has nothing to do with politics (may be His Global Holiness is projecting?). It has to do with what kind of leader you are: it is perfectly fine for a servant-leader to apologize for having offended somebody while maintaining a substantive position. FYI, Metropolitan Jonah has been criticized elsewhere because this statement was construed by some as backing down in his position against the machinations (a more polite word for politics?) of Phanar. Regardless of our esteemed Global Moderator's conclusion to the contrary, Metropolitan Jonah's statement did not retract any of his substantive arguments against Constantinople's unilateral innovations in Orthodox ecclesiology.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 08:15:25 AM »

Regardless of our esteemed Global Moderator's conclusion to the contrary, Metropolitan Jonah's statement did not retract any of his substantive arguments against Constantinople's unilateral innovations in Orthodox ecclesiology.
Plani. I believe you call it Prelest.
Lets look at His Beatitudes words:
Quote

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."

I just wish some of the posters on here would follow his example and admit they are uncharitable.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 08:17:55 AM »

He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly. 
He's learning that the Church is one. Give hime time.

Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 
Probably not, but they're learning too.
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 08:22:20 AM »

I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

That's why I said I wonder what made him change his mind.  I think several of the other churches' hierarchs and maybe patriarchs said something to him about his statements.  He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.  The CS is a priest...so there is a little more leeway there.  Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 08:29:39 AM »

^I think what serb1389 is saying is that if a Priest had said it on his own authority it wouldn't have mattered and it would be an internal affair in the OCA.
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 10:03:30 AM »

http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX....


AXIOS!
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 11:21:07 AM »

^I think what serb1389 is saying is that if a Priest had said it on his own authority it wouldn't have mattered and it would be an internal affair in the OCA.

Yah that's basically what i'm saying.
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

That's why I said I wonder what made him change his mind.  I think several of the other churches' hierarchs and maybe patriarchs said something to him about his statements.  He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.  The CS is a priest...so there is a little more leeway there.  Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

I think OzGeorge got it right. 

But for the sake of the argument, what would you say if I DID feel like it's more important who said it than what is said? 
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 12:26:22 PM »

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.

Christ is Risen!

My, I'm looking at the bar across just above the "Post Reply" box, and it doesn't say "Politics," just "General Forums."

If it were politics, then this would have to be moved, now wouldn't it?  Isn't posting politics in the "General Forums" against the rules? Or was it intended as a slur?

Politics.  Isn't that how New Rome became, well, New Rome?  Became Autocephalous?  Got second place?

Isn't Ultramontanism how it got first place, by default?

He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.
He's learning that the Church is one. Give hime time.
Yes, just like his all holiness is learning that the American Church is Autocephalous, and that Met. Jonah is the primate of said Church.  Give him time.

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

Basically, surrogates are a perfectly fine channel of established Byzantine usage.  That's how we got the term "Byzantine."
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 01:52:34 PM »

But for the sake of the argument, what would you say if I DID feel like it's more important who said it than what is said? 

Well, given the assertions that Metropolitan Jonah's statement was slanderous, disingenuous, offensive, and whatnot, one would think that the statement itself is the issue and would be equally slanderous, disingenuous, offensive, and whatnot regardless of who makes it.  Granted, the statement may garner more attention from a Metropolitan than a parish priest, but the implication that the importance of who said something rather than what that something was implies that the issue is not the statement, but the individual and the statement is merely a pretext. 

It also doesn't help that it seems on OC.net, in order to be supportive of the OCA, one must necessarily also oppose the EP, and that to be supportive of the EP, one must necessarily also oppose the OCA. 
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 01:55:19 PM »

I'm starting my own jurisdiction called "OPA" to oppose them both.
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 02:23:36 PM »

 

It also doesn't help that it seems on OC.net, in order to be supportive of the OCA, one must necessarily also oppose the EP, and that to be supportive of the EP, one must necessarily also oppose the OCA. 

It does indeed seem that way.  And it is unfortunate.  Personally, I don't care what anyone on OC.net says, I support both.  They are BOTH the Church.  It is terribly sad that these things have crept in and caused such terrible damage and disunion.

Axios to Met. +JONAH for his statement!
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 05:22:56 PM »

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

I do think it makes a difference who the person is that makes the statements. Since I first learned of this canonical issue, I've felt that the EP's position is undermining the OCA's mission and the mission of Orthodoxy, of Christianity, in general. However, I personally don't have the national/global audience or stature that our bishops do to express such concerns.
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« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 05:40:49 PM »

However, I personally don't have the national/global audience or stature that our bishops do to express such concerns.

Thank God. 
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« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 06:16:26 PM »

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

I do think it makes a difference who the person is that makes the statements. Since I first learned of this canonical issue, I've felt that the EP's position is undermining the OCA's mission and the mission of Orthodoxy, of Christianity, in general. However, I personally don't have the national/global audience or stature that our bishops do to express such concerns.

Excellent observation. However, you do have this wonderful forum and I hope to read more of your posts.
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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 06:35:54 PM »

Ozgeorge said "Plani. I believe you call it Prelest." IRT Second Chance who had said "Regardless of our esteemed Global Moderator's conclusion to the contrary, Metropolitan Jonah's statement did not retract any of his substantive arguments against Constantinople's unilateral innovations in Orthodox ecclesiology."

Second Chance now replies:

I honestly did not know the meaning of either word. So, I looked it up. Wiki says that the word plani/prelest means spiritual delusion. I really hope that this is not what OzGeorge meant because it puts his final words in an entirely different light (when he said "I just wish some of the posters on here would follow his example and admit they are uncharitable.") So, who is the uncharitable one here?

Presvytera Mari just made an on point posting that essentially rues the "us vs. them" mentality that has arisen on this forum. I agree with her and I admit that I have not always made my points with care to not exacerbate the situation. I do apologize to everyone.

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« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2009, 03:26:30 AM »

Christ is Risen!
Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.

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« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2009, 05:51:24 PM »

Christ is Risen!

The next page in the Saga:  A letter from Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco issued today.

"April 22, 2009
+Bright Wednesday

                                                           

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you,

and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake.

Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward

in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

(Matthew 5:11-12)

 

Dearly Beloved in the Lord,

 

Christos Anesti!

 

The Church of Constantinople, tracing her apostolic roots back to St. Andrew the First Called of the Apostles, continues to preserve the integrity and sanctity of our Christian Orthodox Church.  The apostolicity of the Throne of Constantinople is further acknowledged by the historical fact that the Apostle and Evangelist John preached in Asia Minor.

 

For over 2000 years, faithful Orthodox Christians have kept the Church in Constantinople alive.  This is especially true of the last 556 years, since the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans.  Each day the faithful of the Ecumenical Throne, both clergy and laity, live their lives witnessing to our precious Faith in a Muslim world.  Their world is one of sacrifice and persecution that comes from outside the Church.

 

Recently, we have been saddened by a homily given by Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America (formerly known as the Russian Metropolia).  In his speech, Metropolitan Jonah attacks the Ecumenical Patriarchate and, in reality, all the ancient Patriarchates, calling them “Old World.”  The Metropolitan ignores the canonical and ecclesiological understanding of that which is recognized in the diptychs of all canonical Orthodox Churches, namely, that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the first to be commemorated.  Whether Metropolitan Jonah realized it or not, his words were an attack on the apostolic succession, which is derived through the ancient Patriarchates.

 

The 28th canon of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, which convened in Chalcedon, not only affirmed, but completed that which had been understood by the Second Ecumenical Council, namely, that the Ecumenical Throne was granted “equal privileges as those of the Church of Rome.” To this day, for example, only the Ecumenical Patriarchate possesses the ecclesiastical authority to act judicially in the appeal process regarding clergy outside its jurisdiction (Canons 9 and 17).

 

Moreover, the spiritual authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch is not “papal” in its expression, spiritually or administratively.  To say so is an argument without understanding of Christian Orthodox ecclesiology.  One must remember that the Ecumenical Throne has jurisdiction over the Church in many countries throughout the world. Along with the land of modern-day Turkey, the Patriarch of Constantinople oversees the work of the Holy Gospel in Northern Greece, Mt. Athos, the Islands of the Dodecanese, Crete, Australia, Great Britain, Western Europe, Southeast Asia, Albania, Carpatho-Russia, and the Western Hemisphere (especially among the Greek Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches).  There may be contention from other jurisdictions challenging the responsibilities of the Ecumenical Throne—although these responsibilities are supported in Canon Law—but it supports the same pretext of the Turkish government.

 

Metropolitan Jonah, despite a weak attempt to reinterpret his statements, has shown us that the Ecumenical Patriarchate must now concern itself not only with attacks by those outside the Church, but also from within the Church, as well.  It seems that the Metropolitan has ignored the fact that today’s world is moving towards globalization in every aspect of life, as evident in our ability to communicate with one another instantly.

 

I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople.

 

I beseech all God-loving Orthodox Christians to realize that we are all the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  This unity is expressed by the truth that we all partake of the precious Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.  As a Eucharistic community, we offer the prayer of the Holy Anaphora during the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, “…unite us all to one another who become partakers of the one Bread and the Cup in the communion of the one Holy Spirit.  Grant that none of us may partake of the holy Body and Blood of your Christ to judgment or condemnation, but that we may find mercy and grace with all the saints, who through the ages have pleased You: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, teachers, and every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.”

 

With Love in the Risen Lord,

 

+Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco"


I must confess that while I have great love for Met. Gerasimos as a member of his flock, I find this letter just as hyperbolic as so many claim Met. Jonah's statement was.  To say that Met. Jonah has made an attack on Apostolic Succession itself is baseless--if so, he has accused Met. Jonah of heresy and a certain degree of self-loathing.  To say that Apostolic succession comes through the ancient patriarchates is also incomplete---there are many other sees in the world of Apostolic origin, and the history linking Constantinople to St. Andrew is disputed.  No where and at no time has Met. Jonah denied the primacy afforded the Patriarch of Constantinople.  And to take issue with calling the ancient patriarchates "Old World" may show a lack of understanding of American convention----here in America, we do in fact call Europe and the Near East "Old World."

I sincerely hope that His Eminence issued this letter without the benefit of having been aware of His Beatitude's apology.  Otherwise, this did nothing to help the unity he prays for.
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« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2009, 05:59:13 PM »

the Patriarch of Constantinople oversees the work of the Holy Gospel in Northern Greece, Mt. Athos, the Islands of the Dodecanese, Crete, Australia, Great Britain, Western Europe, Southeast Asia, Albania, Carpatho-Russia, and the Western Hemisphere
I don't know about something?

Quote
I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople.
Quote
I sincerely hope that His Eminence issued this letter without the benefit of having been aware of His Beatitude's apology.  Otherwise, this did nothing to help the unity he prays for.

I think the same iustinos
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« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2009, 07:04:37 PM »


Metropolitan Gerasimos said : "Metropolitan Jonah, despite a weak attempt to reinterpret his statements, has shown us that the Ecumenical Patriarchate must now concern itself not only with attacks by those outside the Church, but also from within the Church, as well...I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople..."

I think that this clearly shows that Metropolitan Gerasimos (if not his fellow GOA bishops) has not accepted Metropolitan Jonah's Holy Friday apology. I had not expected the GOA to say all is now fine, Metropolitan Jonah has retracted his position (as Ozgeorge has implied). I did not, however, expect this dispute to escalate with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Diocesan Bishop not only rebutting the primate of the Orthodox Church in America (like or not a church that has been given its autocephaly by her mother church in accordance with the Holy Tradition) but turning up the heat.

I do not know what the Metropolitan tried to accuse +Jonah of heresy by saying "Whether Metropolitan Jonah realized it or not, his words were an attack on the apostolic succession, which is derived through the ancient Patriarchates."

I don't know if the Metropolitan tried equate +Jonah to Turks by saying "There may be contention from other jurisdictions challenging the responsibilities of the Ecumenical Throne—although these responsibilities are supported in Canon Law—but it supports the same pretext of the Turkish government."

I do know that the Metropolitan (and absent a repudiation by his fellow GOA bishops) the GOA have unfortunately squandered a precious opportunity to foster unity and progress engendered by +Jonah's apology. I am sad and dejected for not being surprised.

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« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2009, 07:18:05 PM »


Metropolitan Gerasimos said : "Metropolitan Jonah, despite a weak attempt to reinterpret his statements, has shown us that the Ecumenical Patriarchate must now concern itself not only with attacks by those outside the Church, but also from within the Church, as well...I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople..."

I think that this clearly shows that Metropolitan Gerasimos (if not his fellow GOA bishops) has not accepted Metropolitan Jonah's Holy Friday apology. I had not expected the GOA to say all is now fine, Metropolitan Jonah has retracted his position (as Ozgeorge has implied). I did not, however, expect this dispute to escalate with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Diocesan Bishop not only rebutting the primate of the Orthodox Church in America (like or not a church that has been given its autocephaly by her mother church in accordance with the Holy Tradition) but turning up the heat.

I do not know what the Metropolitan tried to accuse +Jonah of heresy by saying "Whether Metropolitan Jonah realized it or not, his words were an attack on the apostolic succession, which is derived through the ancient Patriarchates."

I don't know if the Metropolitan tried equate +Jonah to Turks by saying "There may be contention from other jurisdictions challenging the responsibilities of the Ecumenical Throne—although these responsibilities are supported in Canon Law—but it supports the same pretext of the Turkish government."

I do know that the Metropolitan (and absent a repudiation by his fellow GOA bishops) the GOA have unfortunately squandered a precious opportunity to foster unity and progress engendered by +Jonah's apology. I am sad and dejected for not being surprised.


Personally, I'm more willing to extend Metropolitan Gerasimos the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he knew nothing of Metropolitan Jonah's recent apology.
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« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2009, 07:21:12 PM »

While I agree it is sad that Metr. Gerasimos is upping the ante, Metr. Jonah's comments did have a toothpaste out of the tube nature to them.  Despite his retraction, their impact is unlikely to dwindle any time soon.  I think the point that was initially intended is that no solution to the North American jurisdictional quagmire can come about unless the OCA is at the table is quite valid.  It is unfortunate that this is being lost and instead being turned into a cradle vs. convert mudslinging fest.    
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« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »


Personally, I'm more willing to extend Metropolitan Gerasimos the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he knew nothing of Metropolitan Jonah's recent apology.

Metropolitan Gerasimos is an accomplished person, having held high administrative positions in the GOA (including Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod--somewhat of an echo?), holder of a Doctorate in Counseling, and professor at Northwestern University, in addition to being the bishop of a nice sized diocese. I would be surprised if he did not know a thing of Metropolitan Jonah's apology. I would also be surprised if he escalated the argument without coordinating his action with somebody. Nice sentiments, though.
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« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2009, 07:56:11 PM »

While I agree it is sad that Metr. Gerasimos is upping the ante, Metr. Jonah's comments did have a toothpaste out of the tube nature to them.  Despite his retraction, their impact is unlikely to dwindle any time soon.  I think the point that was initially intended is that no solution to the North American jurisdictional quagmire can come about unless the OCA is at the table is quite valid.  It is unfortunate that this is being lost and instead being turned into a cradle vs. convert mudslinging fest.    

I honestly don't think that this is a convert vs. cradle issue, at least in the United States. It really is a huge ecclesiological disagreement, to say the least, between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and American Orthodox folks--cradle, convert, Greek or not, all kinds of people who have a different vision for the Church in the United States and hopefully the rest of North America (if our Canadian and Mexican brethren concur).
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« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2009, 09:25:04 PM »

Just thought i'd post a link for the letter of Met. Gerasimos:  http://www.palamas.info/2009/04/metropolis-of-san-francisco-letter-from.html
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« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2009, 09:31:23 PM »

Christ is Risen! (Sorry, the Polish escapes at the moment)

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I don't know about something?

I think what you mean (at least in American Engish) is "Is there something I don't know about?"



Which is my question too, as Albania and Carpatho-Russia fall in the territory of other Churches that the EP recognize as autocephalous.  Albania is particularly a bad example for the Metropolitan, as the Albanian Church actually began in Boston under the auspices of the OCA/Metropolia/Russian Archdiocese, and Archb. Anastasios, himself a Greek and not an Albanian, was almost expelled as a foreignor.  Only the uproar of the locals prevented that, because although he still (I believe) does not speak Albanian, he is a wonderful pastor and NOT a phanariot.  The EP and the CoG does give a lot of support to the Church of Albanian, though.

Quote
I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople.
Quote
I sincerely hope that His Eminence issued this letter without the benefit of having been aware of His Beatitude's apology.  Otherwise, this did nothing to help the unity he prays for.

Quote
I think the same iustinos

That makes at least three of us.

[/quote]
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« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2009, 10:20:13 PM »

I have to admit that the more times I re-read Met. Gerasimos's letter, the more frustrated I become.  Some parts of it, such as the reference to the Turkish Government, are simply incomprehensible or, as in the reference to Canons 9 & 17, are inapposite.  Likewise, as pointed out above, the reference to Albania and "Carpatho-Russia" (I wasn't aware that is a canonically-defined area) is just not true.  I suspect he means the dioceses here in the U.S., but that's not what he says--leading me to think he didn't stop and read this very carefully before sending.  Maybe a similar problem to Met. Jonah's self-described "insensitive" and "uncharitable" remarks.

And I'm still stuck on the accusation that Met. Jonah has attacked Apostolic Succession itself.  This is a very serious charge.  It is nothing less than an accusation of heresy.

I'm disappointed.
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« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2009, 11:35:57 PM »

Personally, I'm more willing to extend Metropolitan Gerasimos the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he knew nothing of Metropolitan Jonah's recent apology.

Metropolitan Gerasimos is an accomplished person, having held high administrative positions in the GOA (including Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod--somewhat of an echo?), holder of a Doctorate in Counseling, and professor at Northwestern University, in addition to being the bishop of a nice sized diocese.

True.

I would be surprised if he did not know a thing of Metropolitan Jonah's apology.

You've obviously not traveled or served with a bishop during Holy Week.  I have (both counts), and in the focus of the season they're frequently unable to keep up with articles, news reports, etc. during that time.  Lots of hours traveling, serving, hearing confessions, etc.  I would be incredibly surprised if he actually did hear about the retraction, considering how busy he is.  (Heck, I was very surprised that Met. +Jonah had the time to think, write, and post the statement he did...)

I would also be surprised if he escalated the argument without coordinating his action with somebody.

Uh, you don't know His Eminence, then. He doesn't need encouragement, direction or anyone else's opinion.
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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2009, 03:36:37 AM »

And I'm still stuck on the accusation that Met. Jonah has attacked Apostolic Succession itself.  This is a very serious charge.  It is nothing less than an accusation of heresy.

I'm disappointed.

I agree. While you may/may not agree with +Jonah and whether his apology was "heartfelt", it seems that +Gerasimos is just fanning flames and pulling accusations out of thin air. That was a stretch to connect +Jonah's statements with an attack on apostolic succession. I'm sure that's what His Beatitude had in mind...

And if +Gerasimos cares so much about the diptychs, maybe he should revise them for His All-Holiness, so that they commemorate +Jonah for what he is: the metropolitan of an autocephalous church in America.
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« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2009, 03:41:00 AM »

The carousel continues to go 'round and 'round...
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« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2009, 04:00:01 AM »

I agree. While you may/may not agree with +Jonah and whether his apology was "heartfelt", it seems that +Gerasimos is just fanning flames and pulling accusations out of thin air. That was a stretch to connect +Jonah's statements with an attack on apostolic succession. I'm sure that's what His Beatitude had in mind...
WOW!  Telepathic abilities!  I think I may have a lucrative job for you. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2009, 04:23:09 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   
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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2009, 05:06:23 AM »

Sad times for the American Orthodox.  Hopefully something good comes out of all of this.  On the local parish level, I have not seen any uncharitable discussions between jurisdictions.  Everyone seems to be weathering it together as family in the faith.
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« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2009, 06:24:57 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

I havn't seen any of this in secular media.  Not even in the National Herald...and that's saying something.   Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2009, 06:35:06 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

I havn't seen any of this in secular media.  Not even in the National Herald...and that's saying something.   Shocked Shocked

All it's saying is that our favorite reporter is building up to a grand story on it.
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« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2009, 08:02:23 AM »

I agree. While you may/may not agree with +Jonah and whether his apology was "heartfelt", it seems that +Gerasimos is just fanning flames and pulling accusations out of thin air. That was a stretch to connect +Jonah's statements with an attack on apostolic succession. I'm sure that's what His Beatitude had in mind...
WOW!  Telepathic abilities!  I think I may have a lucrative job for you. Roll Eyes

Sometimes it is just difficult to spin things your way. I don't think that making fun of folks is one of them.  police
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« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2009, 08:42:57 AM »

Quote
It really is a huge ecclesiological disagreement, to say the least, between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and American Orthodox folks--cradle, convert, Greek or not, all kinds of people who have a different vision for the Church in the United States and hopefully the rest of North America (if our Canadian and Mexican brethren concur).

Something tells me there are "American Orthodox folks" who see this somewhat differently.  Maybe even some Canadian Americans as well.
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« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2009, 10:05:29 AM »

 Sad
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« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2009, 06:20:50 PM »

Quote
It really is a huge ecclesiological disagreement, to say the least, between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and American Orthodox folks--cradle, convert, Greek or not, all kinds of people who have a different vision for the Church in the United States and hopefully the rest of North America (if our Canadian and Mexican brethren concur).

Something tells me there are "American Orthodox folks" who see this somewhat differently.  Maybe even some Canadian Americans as well.

Unquestionably so. I would also guess that most Orthodox in North America share the Constantinople vision. The numbers who differ, however, are not insignificant.

As an aside (andnot as an effort to derail or otherwise beak a forum rule), I see that your jurisdiction has changed yet again. Just an observation; please do not dignify it with a response.
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« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2009, 06:44:30 PM »

Ok, sorry if that was obnoxious.  Basically all I'm saying is there's no single type of American Orthodox.  There's a bunch of different kinds.
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« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2009, 07:00:01 PM »

Ok, sorry if that was obnoxious.  Basically all I'm saying is there's no single type of American Orthodox.  There's a bunch of different kinds.

Of which you are.....?
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« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2009, 07:27:39 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.
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« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2009, 08:18:30 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.
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« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2009, 08:28:42 PM »

I have no problem with that at all.  The issues I had with Metropolitan Jonah's speech as I mentioned before was that he exaggerated and mis-stated a number of things.  That makes for a bad argument.  I welcome corrections, as I welcomed seeing the essay posted on OCA News dis-spelling some of the myths the OCA has propagated about itself.

I have never heard anyone in my diocese talk about the need for jurisdictional unity; and I mean it has literally never come up.  The only thing I have ever heard is that we need to keep ourselves distinct and protect our traditions.
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« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2009, 08:54:57 PM »

I have no problem with that at all.  The issues I had with Metropolitan Jonah's speech as I mentioned before was that he exaggerated and mis-stated a number of things.  That makes for a bad argument.  I welcome corrections, as I welcomed seeing the essay posted on OCA News dis-spelling some of the myths the OCA has propagated about itself.

Yes.

Too bad the essay posted on OCA news exaggerated and misstated a number of things and made no argument.

Quote
I have never heard anyone in my diocese talk about the need for jurisdictional unity; and I mean it has literally never come up.  The only thing I have ever heard is that we need to keep ourselves distinct and protect our traditions.

That's rather hard when your diocese keeps changing: what was it today again?
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« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2009, 09:23:33 PM »

Too bad the essy posted on OCA news exaggerated and misstated a number of things and made no argument.

I guess one is left to wonder then why a priest in the OCA would do such a thing.

I don't think he did though.

Clearly those myths are going to die hard, as was evidenced in the comments following the essay.
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« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2009, 09:30:11 PM »

Christ is Risen!

Too bad the essy posted on OCA news exaggerated and misstated a number of things and made no argument.

I guess one is left to wonder then why a priest in the OCA would do such a thing.

Dunno. Could it be related to what someone posted, that he is now with us Antiochians?

Quote
I don't think he did though.

Clearly those myths are going to die hard, as was evidenced in the comments following the essay.

Truth is immortal.

What myths?

Christ is Risen!

A very interesting read.
Interesting indeed. Of course, it piling statement after statement without citation or substantiation, and with little argumentation to connect it is a wee problem.
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« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2009, 09:32:56 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?   IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!  
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« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2009, 09:35:07 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?  
The canons require it.
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IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!

Which is why the canons require it.
[/quote]
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« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2009, 09:46:34 PM »

Quote
What myths?

The thing is, you know.

In reality, I think you should contact the priest and correct him, have him post a retraction, etc.  He's the one you should worry about since he is spreading his exaggerations and misinformation.

Quote
Which is why the canons require it.

Then the ROCOR is non canonical (though I don't believe they are), since it exists specifically as a diaspora church outside its own historical territory.
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« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2009, 10:59:25 PM »

Christ is Risen!
Quote
What myths?

The thing is, you know.
Yes, I do know.

Which is why I repeat "What myths?"
Quote
In reality, I think you should contact the priest and correct him, have him post a retraction, etc.  He's the one you should worry about since he is spreading his exaggerations and misinformation.

I've only seen it spread here.

Quote
Which is why the canons require it.

Quote
Then the ROCOR is non canonical (though I don't believe they are), since it exists specifically as a diaspora church outside its own historical territory.

I admit I am unclear as to ROCOR's status within the Russian Church, let alone outside it.  But since the affected Holy Synod, i.e. the OCA, isn't bent out of shape over that (when the communion papers were signed in Moscow, I remember concelebrations  OCA-ROCOR broke out across the US), I see not reason at present to belabor the point.  In particular as there are those non-canonical groups which are on the march in the campaign to deny the existence of the OCA.  Then there's tomorrow's meeting of the sole-ruled Antiochians....
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« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2009, 11:52:18 PM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

Because we are both invisible and irrelevant to the secular media, and to most of Christendom for that matter, I don't think many others know about this little spat. I doubt most Orthodox lay people do.

But this is precisely the kind of thing that keeps us invisible and irrelevant in North America.

Where is the concern for evangelism and mission? This is all petty bickering.

One of the problems with Old World hierarchs is that they actually think this is a still a protestant Christian country and that their only concern should be tending to their little ethnic flocks over here. Don't steal sheep and don't proselytize. Dudes (not to be disrespectful, mind you) - those days are long gone and have been for at least 50 years, if not longer! Wake up!

This country is essentially secular. Governmentally it completely is. Culturally it is becoming ever moreso virtually by the month.

Even the evangelicals practice mostly a civil religion to prop up the throne, so to speak (the throne of a long-lost, nostalgic democratic republicanism - not parties - historical approaches to govt. with their loci in Washington/Adams/Hamilton on the one hand and Jefferson/Jackson on the other) In reality this is a country mostly governed by special interests and media polls.

Long ago most Americans vacated any sense of religious commitment that required sacrifice or giving up in any substansive way the living of the American dream of material prosperity, moral autonomy and consumeristic aquisition.

Some Roman Catholics, because they have a cogent and coherent moral theology and some radical reformed Christians, again because of a superior intellectual tradition, are fomenting some sort of faithful opposition to these trends. Also some in the Wesleyan holiness and anababptist traditions who live a counter-cultural lifestyle among the poor or in preserving local sustainability and the environment also bear witness against the cultural tsumami.

But,well, well, well - we Orthodox have the most counter-cultural tradition of all. But we'd rather wag on about who offended who, like a bunch of women. (as a comic aside, the thought just flashed through my mind of the wedding in Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Lets quit bickerin' about 'oo killed 'oo. This is supposed to be a 'appy occasion.") So let's quit bickering about who affended who.

Quit making our hierarchs out to be women in distress - let them be men! We don't need to fued for their honor! St. Nicholas punched someone in the nose in doctrinal debate! Do you forget that? These aren't little girls -these are men! Let them be men!

The gates of hell do not have to work very hard when the Church is its own worst enemy. The gates of hell may not prevail but we might be our own undoing, handing the game to them because we slap at each other like girls while missing the weightier matters of the times.

Let's be honest:

This country really needs the gospel. It really needs to be evangelized.

Sadly, I think most hierarchs, in North America and outside of it, are clueless to this reality.

Unfortunately, I think our canonical tradition and the varying interpretations of it and our competing jurisdictions (Sadducees and Pharisees, anyone?) make us ripe for continuing irrelevance.

But God will not be hindered by us and the gates of hell will not prevail - he will make the rocks cry out if necessary!

Thank God we have monastics. Without their prayers. all would be lost.

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« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2009, 12:19:08 AM »

Has anyone seen any of this in the secular media or is it just the ten or so of us who frequent Orthodox internet fora that are following this?  It really would be a shame if this little spat is how people hear of Orthodoxy in the news.   

Secular media cares nothing of Orthodoxy, at least not in the USA. Even more so in Michigan, where there's a Protestant church on every corner, even in the UP. Now if this was a Roman Catholic thing, they'd have a webcam stationed outside the pope's office, so you could get live 24-hour updates.
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« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2009, 01:52:51 AM »

Secular media cares nothing of Orthodoxy, at least not in the USA.

I can't think of any reason why they would.  Fine by me; leave us alone.
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« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2009, 09:30:57 AM »

Which is why I repeat "What myths?"

Founded in 17..., united before the October Revolution, etc.

I would think you should not waste your time arguing the point here, but challenge Fr. Oliver to correct or amend what he said.  He is saying something vastly different than what you hear in other places, and people are not receiving his bringing this to light as far as I can tell.

Quote
I admit I am unclear as to ROCOR's status within the Russian Church, let alone outside it.  But since the affected Holy Synod, i.e. the OCA, isn't bent out of shape over that (when the communion papers were signed in Moscow, I remember concelebrations  OCA-ROCOR broke out across the US), I see not reason at present to belabor the point.

But following the canons is not about whether or not the OCA is unhappy with somebody, its about the canons themselves.  I'm not a canon person, but maybe you could make the argument that the ROCOR for instance is "not canonical" for various reasons like having a ruling Metropolitan in someone else's church's territory, or existing in a way that it could only ever be present on the territory of other churches (being a diaspora church) or that it is simply organized as a church based on national or ethnic lines.  You could probably argue that the status of the OCA and MP and is "not canonical" for various reasons even if they agreed to the present set up between themselves; probably for many of the same reasons you could argue the ROCOR is "not canonical".  Maybe the ethnic dioceses of the OCA are "not canonical".  I have no idea.

We may all be one big can of "not canonical" in general.
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« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2009, 10:45:13 AM »


you could make the argument that the ROCOR for instance is "not canonical" for various reasons like having a ruling Metropolitan in someone else's church's territory, or existing in a way that it could only ever be present on the territory of other churches (being a diaspora church)

As far as I am aware the only canonical territory of another Church where you will find the Russian Church Abroad is the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.   After the Russian Revolution it was the monks and nuns of the Russian Church Abroad who were blessed by the Jerusalem Patriarch to provide continuing care for the pre-Revoluntionary Russian monasteries and church properties in the Holy Land. 

The Russian clergy of these monasteries serve the Liturgy on antimensia signed and supplied by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and he is commemorated at every church service as the ruling hierarch.   The Russian Church Abroad maintains no bishop on the territory of the Church of Jerusalem but the monasteries are overseen by an Archimandrite.  At this time it is Fr Joasaph (McLellan) who until recently was a Professor at Princeton.

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« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2009, 10:52:18 AM »


 Maybe the ethnic dioceses of the OCA are "not canonical".  I have no idea.


Yah what about this aspect of the OCA?  Isn't it a problem, especially with "ethnophiletism" in play? 
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« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2009, 11:58:48 AM »

you could make the argument that the ROCOR for instance is "not canonical" for various reasons like having a ruling Metropolitan in someone else's church's territory, or existing in a way that it could only ever be present on the territory of other churches (being a diaspora church)

As far as I am aware the only canonical territory of another Church where you will find the Russian Church Abroad is the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.   After the Russian Revolution it was the monks and nuns of the Russian Church Abroad who were blessed by the Jerusalem Patriarch to provide continuing care for the pre-Revoluntionary Russian monasteries and church properties in the Holy Land.  

Well, if according to Moscow the OCA is the Church with canonical jurisdiction over the United States, then ROCOR is overlapping an existing canonical jurisdiction here, with their own bishop of the US.  I'm not going to disparage them for this, since they're not the only ones who have overlapping hierarchs here.

The Russian clergy of these monasteries serve the Liturgy on antimensia signed and supplied by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and he is commemorated at every church service as the ruling hierarch.   The Russian Church Abroad maintains no bishop on the territory of the Church of Jerusalem but the monasteries are overseen by an Archimandrite.  At this time it is Fr Joasaph (McLellan) who until recently was a Professor at Princeton.

So it's not an overlapping jurisdiction - if they answer to the JP, and commemorate him, and have no bishop other than the JP over them, then they're clergy of the JP who happen to speak Russian (and then they're  not "ROCOR clergy" who happen to be in Israel/Palestine).
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« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2009, 12:03:50 PM »

Quote
Well, if according to Moscow the OCA is the Church with canonical jurisdiction over the United States, then ROCOR is overlapping an existing canonical jurisdiction here, with their own bishop of the US.  I'm not going to disparage them for this, since they're not the only ones who have overlapping hierarchs here.

Nor will I, but I'm betting there are people who have, will and could argue this is "not canonical".  In reading through places like OCA News I see that term used a lot, along with proof texting of canons.
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« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2009, 12:35:37 PM »

Which is why I repeat "What myths?"

Founded in 17..., united before the October Revolution, etc.

You seem to be confused about the difference between "fact" and "myth."

Since founded in 1794 is so well documented, I see no reason to bother with that.

As to united, I'll just give an example (I'm going to be posting more, Lord willing, in response to the question of my thoughts on Bp/Arbp/EP/Pope Meletios speech on his trip to America):
Quote
With the fall of Byzantium in 1453 and the rise of the Ottoman Empire, the Orthodox Churches in the Middle East suffered persecution, isolation, degradation, and a great decline due to the Protestant missionaries who came from Europe. The Russian Orthodox Church came to the aid of Her Sister Church, the Church of Antioch, spiritually and financially. She was able to open schools and monasteries, build churches and educate clergy. Their aid continued through the rise of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 but by the end of World War I, the Church of Antioch desperately needed financial assistance. During this period, when many of its faithful migrated to Europe and North and South America, Patriarch Gregory IV turned to the West for help. Following World War I, the Church of Antioch desperately needed financial assistance. During this period, when many of its faithful migrated to Europe and North and South America. Patriarch Gregory IV turned to the West for help. Following World War I, a delegation headed by Mr. Charles Emhardt, from the Episcopal Church in the United States, was sent to investigate the status of its Episcopal mission in Syria. It was while in Syria that His Beatitude, Patriarch Gregory, made contact with Emhardt. Arrangements were made to have a private meeting with Emhardt in the Orthodox Archdiocese Chancery in Beirut with Metropolitan Gerasimos, and Deacon Antony Bashir acted as a private interpreter. Emhardt proposed to assist the Church of Antioch on the condition that the Patriarch would recognize the validity of the Episcopal Church and its orders. Through this act of recognition, the Episcopal Church would do its best to ease the financial burden and lift the Church of Antioch from her fiscal needs.

      Obviously this condition was rejected by the Patriarch. However, during the conversation, Emhardt mentioned that in September 1922, there would be a general convention of the Protestant Episcopal Church in Portland, Oregon. The Patriarch considered the possibility of sending a delegation to this convention to plead the cause of the Antiochian Church. He was encouraged and so decided to send a delegation headed by Metropolitan Gerasimos and Deacon Antony, along with Archimandrite Victor Abo-Assaley, for the reason of visiting his relatives in the United States. In the book, The New Herodus, a quote from a Beirut newspaper stated,

The unknown author indicated that these delegates kept their meeting with Mr. Emhardt private. Even the Syrian Mission in North America. which was functioning under the Russian Archdiocese did not know about this delegation, until the brother of the Metropolitan of Zahle met them in France as they journeyed to the United States. He informed his relatives by telegram that this Eminence and a delegation would be coming to the United States. Upon their arrival, the delegates were welcomed by Metropolitan Germanos Shahadi, who then resided in Brooklyn. They were also visited by Archpriest Basil Kerbawy, the official representative of Archbishop Aftimios of Brooklyn, under the Russian Archdiocese. During their visitation, the delegation was exposed to the internal division within the Archdiocese and the Syrian Church in North America. After a short stay in New York, Metropolitan Gerasimos and Deacon Antony began their journey across the United States to Portland to attend the General Convention of the Episcopal Church.

After the falling asleep of Archbishop Victor Abo-Assaley on April 19, 1934, Antony Bashir was appointed Vicar of the Archdiocese awaiting the Patriarchal legate Metropolitan Theodosius of Tyre and Sidon, who was sent from Damascus to supervise the convention for the nomination of a bishop for the vacant Archdiocese. Among the candidates for the election were: Archimandrite Antony Bashir of Douma, Archimandrite Samuel David of Aitha and Archimandrite Agapios Golam of Beirut (all living in the USA). Following the intense dialogue and negotiations for the unity of the faithful in the United States and Canada, it was agreed that Archimandrite Antony Bashir would be consecrated Archbishop for New York and All North America, and later Archimandrite Samuel David would be consecrated as the Auxiliary Bishop of Toledo, Ohio. But this agreement was never consummated. On April 19, 1936, the day Archimandrite Antony was being consecrated Bishop, then elevated to Archbishop by Metropolitan Theodosius of Tyre and Sidon and Archbishop Vitaly of the Russian Church, at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Brooklyn, New York, Archimandrite Samuel was being consecrated bishop, then elevated Archbishop on the same day during the Divine Liturgy in Toledo, Ohio, by Archbishop Adam, Bishop Arseny and Bishop Leonty of the Russian Orthodox Church. This caused confusion and division among the fruitful in the United States and Canada, and for the ensuing years friction and mistrust continued, although attempts were often made for reconciliation. in 1939, Archbishop Antony was given the title Metropolitan of New York and All North America.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/hierarchs/antioch/former/nasr_life_antony_bashir.htm

Quote
Ladies and Gentlemen: The theme of our convention this year is Orthodox unity of faith. In 1995, we celebrated the centennial of our God-protected Archdiocese. Our journey to the kingdom began in 1895, when Archimandrite Raphael Hawaweeny arrived to these blessed shores of North America. On March 12, 1904, Raphael was consecrated Bishop of Brooklyn, New York and was the first Orthodox Bishop to be ordained in North America. Unfortunately, Bishop Raphael fell asleep in the Lord in 1915, having served only eleven rich years.

In 1917, Aftimios Ofiesh was consecrated Archbishop and served until 1933. Emmanuel Abou-Hatab was consecrated Bishop of Montreal and Auxiliary to Aftimios, September 11, 1928, and died May 30, 1933. Sophronis Bechara, who was the Bishop of the West Coast and Auxiliary to Aftimios, died in 1934. Archbishop Victor Abouassaly, who was consecrated as Archbishop of New York and all North America, with a praxis from the Holy Synod of Antioch, died April 19, 1934. Metropolitan Germanos Shehadi returned to Lebanon in 1933 and died in 1934.

Shortly after the departure of Hawaweeny, Metropolitan Germanos came to America to collect funds for the Archdiocese of Zahleh, Ba’albek and Dependencies. But instead of raising funds and returning to Lebanon, he stayed in North America and led a faction of our people who were loyal to Antioch. Thus, our people in North America became divided between those who were loyal to Antioch and those who were loyal to the Russian Synod. This was a dark period in our history and the struggle which ensued was dubbed “Russy-Antaky.” Consequently, congregations in the same city were divided. Parishes of the same faith were not in communion with each other. Neighbors were not talking to neighbors and relatives were against relatives. People who belonged to the same Church sued each other and ended up in civil courts. In other words, the Antiochian situation in North America was dismal and disgusting. Neither the Russian Synod nor the Antiochian Synod was able to put an end to this tragedy. By the end of 1934, however, all the bishop who were in the Antiochian arena in North America were dead; but as you will see, death did not solve the problem.

In 1935, Patriarch Alexander Tahan III delegated the late Theodosius Aboujaily, Archbishop of Tyre and Sidon and later Patriarch Theodosius VI, to come to North America, visit our parishes and find out who our people wanted as the Metropolitan Archbishop. According to his findings, Archimandrite Antony Bashir was the most popular and qualified. The Holy Synod of Antioch, based on the recommendation of Metropolitan Theodosius, elected Antony Bashir as Metropolitan of New York and all North America to succeed Archbishop Victor Abouassaly. Some of our people were against this recommendation and the election of Metropolitan Antony. Thus, on April 16, 1936, while Antony Bashir was being conse- crated Archbishop, on the same day and at the same time, Archbishop Samuel David was being consecrated in Toledo, Ohio, as Archbishop of Toledo and Dependencies. Unfortunately, the long dark night which began after the falling asleep in Christ of Raphael Hawaweeny, continued and the conflict, then, was between New York and Toledo. The same animosity among our people persisted. If you check the Minutes of the Holy Synod of Antioch between 1936 and 1970, you will be horrified with the contradictory decisions which were made during this period, vis-á-vis New York and Toledo. After my consecration as your Metropolitan in 1966, I was determined to put an end to this shameful tragedy, before this conflict put an end to my hopes and dreams of a united Antiochian Archdiocese and, consequently, a united Orthodox Church in North America.
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17070

Quote
While there was a vision for Orthodox unity in North America from the first pioneers, it did not take long for the sands of division to sprout on this fertile soil.  For the Antiochians, the Russy/Antaky struggle later evolved into the New York/Toledo battle.  During this period, the ammunition for strife came from inside as well as outside.  Many forces fueled the opponents against one another for over sixty years.
http://www.stnicholasmtl.org/Convention2007_M/Fr%20Anthony%20Gabriel.htm

In short, the Arabs were all under the Russian bishop, until the fall out from WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution.  And even then, Arabs were committed to the successors of St. Raphael ordained in the Russian Archdicoese as the first Orthodox bishop ordained in North America.  That in that fall out, many were peeled off to form what became the Antiochian Archdiocese doesn't change that fact.

Similarly,

Of course, the Amerindian Orthodox-Aleut, Tlingit, Kashaya Pomo, etc.-where in America first, and they were, and are, under the Russian/OCA bishops.


Quote
and the argument that might claim “there was a diocese on the continent dedicated to evangelizing the whole continent and, therefore, all Orthodox anywhere on the continent were to be subject to that diocese.”

Excessively simplistic:no one really claims a diocese on the continent until the CoG does so in 1918, and then makes Archb. Meletios of Athens, still resident in Athens (i.e. not in America) bishop of said "diocese."  By then, nearly two decades had passed since the Russian Church had organized its diocese into the Archdiocese of the Aleutian Islands and North America, with vicar bishops for Alaska, for the Arabs, etc. with bishops criss-crossing the continent visiting parishes in all corners of it.

Divisive: whereas the Russian Orthodox Church had organized and built the diocese that spaned the continent and all communities, neither CoG nor Constantinople had ANY direct part in building the Church in America, something the Chief Secretary admits and bemoans.  Case in point: when St. Tikhon went to Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in NYC in 1904, he was basically expelled, and the parish incorporated itself to prevent it being taken over by St. Tikhon, the only hiearch of a hiearchal Church, which the Orthodox Church is (the distinction is important for American law).  Anywhere else, this would be called schismatic: why is it acceptable in America?  In contrast, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Chicago (which predated the one in NYC) invited St. Tikhon to come serve in 1901, which he did.

So are we to place a canonical diocese on a par with the situation described below?  BY NO MEANS!

Quote
And now for the position of the priest, the pastor (ephemerios) of the community.  He has no power as far as the written constitution goes.  Thus we find a most anomolous condition in the Greek churches in America.  It works something like the worst side of the vestry system of the Episcopal Church parishes, without the legal rights of the rector, nor the possibility of intervention by the Bishop; or another analogy might apply in some instances,-Congregationalsim run wild in a mission of the Apostolic, Catholic, Eastern Church!  From afar the Metropolitan Archbishop of Athens (note: The Patriarch of Constantinople has ceded to the Holy Synod of Athens the charge of the Greek Orthodox missions in America) rules without the possibility of settling anything, much as the Bishop of London had charge of the Anglican parishes in this country before the Revelotion.  So the Greek priest is hired, and often "fired," by a parish committee composed usually of poorly educated peasants.  And thus come the wranglings and disputes and divisions into two rival church communities of a city; and thus the poor priests, sent out by the Holy Synod in response to the cry for spiritual help, sometimes find themselves as office boys at the mercy of their employers.  Moreoever, there are also some priests who have no right here; these are Macedonians, mostly of little education, who, coming to America, have slipped their bishop's jurisdiction and are ministering without authority wherever they can make the most money, sometimes underbidding and ousting the priests sent by a bishop. Of course, conditions are not everywhere bad in communities, but the system is sadly irresponsible.  The only solution seems to be a resident bishop for America; may his advent be soon!
(the same source has a nice summary (1913) of the Greek Orthodox Churches at that time)
http://books.google.com/books?id=RVV2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=Greeks+in+America+Galveston#PPA55,M1

Alas, that bishop, as far as the Greeks were concerned, was Bshp/Archbshp/EP/Pope Meletios.  I'm a little tired now, so I've have to post his report of his trip to America, where it is clear the GOARCH was founded in willful defiance of the canonical diocese.  For those who can't wait, look here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Uh4VnseTNZkC&pg=PA137&dq=Galveston+Orthodox&lr=#

And the point, made before the founding of the GOARCH:
Quote
The following interesting facts also must not be omitted although since we are dealing here with only Greek communities they must be consigned to a footnote: In Chicago in 1882 a Slavo-Hellenic union was formed adn called a Greek-born priest of Russian education to minister to all the Orthodox churchmen there.  It Seattle about the same date the Greek sailors who had settled there placed themselves under the Russian bishop, who provided a Greek priest, graduate of a Russian seminiary.  Also in Galveston, Texas, some Greek sailors established a church, but being unable to support it, gave it over to the Russian bishop, and the Divine Liturgy was celebrated i both languages.  But in all these places, as soon as the Greeks became numerous enough, they established their own purely Greek church communities under the jurisdiction of Constantinople or Athens.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RVV2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=Greeks+in+America+Galveston#PPA55,M1

The fact that the Greeks later rebelled doesn't make the unity of the Russian Archdiocese across North America any less a fact.

Quote
I would think you should not waste your time arguing the point here, but challenge Fr. Oliver to correct or amend what he said. 

Oh, if I had to chase down everyone posting misformation on the internet, my day would never be done.

Quote
He is saying something vastly different than what you hear in other places, and people are not receiving his bringing this to light as far as I can tell.

I've seen plenty of what he "brings to light" highlighted on any number of GO/EP sites: it fits their agenda.

Due to length, I'll have to pick up your thoughts on ROCOR on another post.
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« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2009, 01:26:00 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?  
The canons require it.
Quote
IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!

Which is why the canons require it.
[/quote]

From a strait forward reading of the canons (and I personally think the EP supporters - especially GiC - have made a good case on this point) the territory should be the EP's.  The other jurisdictions don't agree so the issue is who's interpretation of the canon.  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have.
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« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2009, 01:28:46 PM »

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You seem to be confused about the difference between "fact" and "myth."

Any good myth has any number of facts associated with it.  I think you should e-mail Fr. Oliver your objections so he can publicly correct himself.
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« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2009, 01:40:10 PM »

To be honest, essentially indifferent to the whole GOA vs. OCA stuff and I really don't see the big issue with multiple jurisdictions in this country.

What do you think of Metropolitan Jonah's suggestion of getting all jurisdictions together, as in Liognier, with the strategic purpose of figuring out a local solution to Church unity in North America? One that perhaps would have the multiple jurisdictions join forces functionally but not necessarily administratively. Some solution that is completely out of the box, with one main future: this would be our solution.

FWIW, I am beginning to think this whole issue of "the need for Orthodox unity in America" could easily give the wrong impression to inquirers.   A major component to Orthodoxy IS that all of the local jurisdictions ARE in communion with each other!    The harping on and on about the "need for unity" seems to lessen the present mystery of Orthodox inter-communion which is an attractive feature to outsiders.   We want to show unity?  Let's all first get on the same calendar!   With all of this squabbling back and forth over who's territory the USA is HOW realistic is bringing all of these various ethnic jurisidictions into one administration?   Why is this even needed?  
The canons require it.
IMO, we should be showcasing the unity we already have by simply being Orthodox!

Which is why the canons require it.

From a strait forward reading of the canons (and I personally think the EP supporters - especially GiC - have made a good case on this point) the territory should be the EP's. 
I've seen a lot of repition of the EP's assertion by GiC, but no arguement.  For thing, as I've shown, the EP disagrees with their assertion that Tomoi can be annulled.

Quote
Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome.  For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.  And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (ἴσα πρεσβεῖα) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.
As America is nowhere near the Pontic, Asian and Thracian dioceses, nor her canonical bishops of those diocese aforesaid, the EP has no claim on the American "barbarians."

Quote
The other jurisdictions don't agree so the issue is who's interpretation of the canon.
ALL (with the possible exception of Cyprus) autocephalous Churches, by word or by deed or both, reject the EP's interpretation.  So yes, the other jurisdiction DO agree that the EP is WRONG.

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have.
I do believe that is why it is being convened.
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« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2009, 01:55:28 PM »

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have. 
I do believe that is why it is being convened.

Wait.. you believe it is being convened "to harm," or "not to harm?"
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« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2009, 02:15:35 PM »

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have. 
I do believe that is why it is being convened.

Wait.. you believe it is being convened "to harm," or "not to harm?"

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspoar" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.
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« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2009, 02:41:05 PM »

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

There are enough issues with the Autocephaly and it's recognition to have them not invited on their own; if Moscow wants to include him in their own delegation, that sounds fine (and, if it's so important to the MP to have the OCA recognized as the Autocephalous Church of America, why don't they take the step to have him included in their MP delegation to get his voice in the room?  And why don't they *fold ROCOR into the OCA as a Russian Diocese like the Romanian and Albanian ones?*).

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspora" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Uh-huh.  The model for the process here will be used to figure out similar issues in areas like W. Europe, E. Asia, and Australia / NZ (or, "North and South George Islands" Wink Cheesy ).
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« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2009, 02:50:46 PM »

Quote
  I am just hoping this upcoming pan-Orthodox Synod does not harm the unity we already have. 
I do believe that is why it is being convened.

Wait.. you believe it is being convened "to harm," or "not to harm?"

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspoar" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Yep, you've got it. Only way OCA is going to participate is at Moscow's invitation...yeah, I know. Not ideal.
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« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2009, 03:13:57 PM »

As long the primate of the Autocephalous Church of America and Canada is not invited, I can only but conclude that the Phanar is up to old tricks, to the harm of the Holy Synod of America and Canada.

There are enough issues with the Autocephaly and it's recognition to have them not invited on their own; if Moscow wants to include him in their own delegation, that sounds fine

Evidently, not to the EP:
Quote
The submission of the diaspora to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean either Hellenization or violation of the canonical order, because it is only in this way that both the letter and the spirit of the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils is respected. The Mother Church knows, however, that such a submission is difficult to be accomplished under the present historical conditions. For this reason, and by employing the principle of economy, it was suggested and it has now become accepted in Pan-Orthodox level, that there will be local Pan-Orthodox Episcopal Assemblies in the diaspora (like SCOBA in the US). The principle of presidency is followed, namely the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate presides over these Episcopal Assemblies in order to preserve the necessary element of canonicity.

As you surely know, last October the Ecumenical Patriarchate summoned in Constantinople a Synaxis of the Primates of the Orthodox Churches. The Primates accepted the proposal of Patriarch Bartholomew to move ahead with the Pan-Orthodox preparatory meetings, within 2009, so that the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church take place as soon as possible. For the record, please note that this decision was reached thanks to the concession on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which accepted that the Autonomous Churches will no longer be invited as to avoid the thorny problem of the Church of Estonia in the relations between Constantinople and Moscow.

Besides displaying ignorance about SCOBA'S constitution, the Chief Secretary is less than truthful of why autonomous churches (which the OCA would be in the very least, according to the EP) aren't allowed even at the children's table.


Quote
(and, if it's so important to the MP to have the OCA recognized as the Autocephalous Church of America, why don't they take the step to have him included in their MP delegation to get his voice in the room?
Because the EP decided Estonia wasn't worth North America.
Quote
  And why don't they *fold ROCOR into the OCA as a Russian Diocese like the Romanian and Albanian ones?*)
Though I like to see that, I think that would have killed the reunion between Russia and ROCOR.  In the end that may, and should happen, but not today.  Maybe Met. Jonah could discuss that in Cyprus.

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspora" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Uh-huh.  The model for the process here will be used to figure out similar issues in areas like W. Europe, E. Asia, and Australia / NZ (or, "North and South George Islands" Wink Cheesy ).

As for as I know, there isn't an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of W. Europe, E. Asia and Australia/NZ (or for that matter, South America), there are not similar situations.
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« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2009, 03:38:36 PM »

Besides displaying ignorance about SCOBA'S constitution, the Chief Secretary is less than truthful of why autonomous churches (which the OCA would be in the very least, according to the EP) aren't allowed even at the children's table.

See comment below.

Because the EP decided Estonia wasn't worth North America.

You know, I've seen you assert this multiple times without a shred of documentation, or other sort of proof.

Though I like to see that, I think that would have killed the reunion between Russia and ROCOR.  In the end that may, and should happen, but not today.  Maybe Met. Jonah could discuss that in Cyprus.

Um, so what you're saying is that the MP doesn't actually care that much about the OCA.  Figures, since they've left ROCOR, in addition to their other Patriarchal Parishes which are not under ROCOR, not in the OCA, and aren't attempting to find ways of getting +Jonah to the party.

As for as I know, there isn't an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of W. Europe, E. Asia and Australia/NZ (or for that matter, South America), there are not similar situations.

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.
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« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2009, 04:02:41 PM »

Besides displaying ignorance about SCOBA'S constitution, the Chief Secretary is less than truthful of why autonomous churches (which the OCA would be in the very least, according to the EP) aren't allowed even at the children's table.

See comment below.

Because the EP decided Estonia wasn't worth North America.

You know, I've seen you assert this multiple times without a shred of documentation, or other sort of proof.

Christ is Risen!

Father Ambrose, I seem to remember you posting something concerning the pull out of the Russians from the Council fo Ravenna, when the issue of the OCA was raised when the EP tried to hide behind the autonomy of the Estonians for why they were at Ravenna.

In the meantime, this will do.  Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev:
Quote
There are a number of autonomous and autocephalous Churches which, for various reasons, are not universally recognized in the Orthodox world. For example, there is the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America and the autonomous Orthodox Church of Japan: they were never invited to such dialogues because the Patriarchate of Constantinople does not recognize their current status. If the so-called Church of Estonia, which is an autonomous structure under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, should be invited, why not invite these other churches? Why, then, not invite the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which has an autonomous status under the Moscow Patiarchate? What about the autonomous Orthodox Church of Latvia? What about the Orthodox Church of Estonia that belongs to the Moscow Patriarchate and also has an autonomous status?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1925822/posts

Though I like to see that, I think that would have killed the reunion between Russia and ROCOR.  In the end that may, and should happen, but not today.  Maybe Met. Jonah could discuss that in Cyprus.

Quote
Um, so what you're saying is that the MP doesn't actually care that much about the OCA.  Figures, since they've left ROCOR, in addition to their other Patriarchal Parishes which are not under ROCOR, not in the OCA, and aren't attempting to find ways of getting +Jonah to the party.

No, I'm saying the PoM and the OCA have a NORMAL mother-daughter relationship, where the one doesn't speak for the grown daughter, and the other doesn't expect mom to fight all her battles.

I'll just reiterate, for now, that the PoM, ROCOR and OCA are fine for now.  Unlike a certain patriarchate with delusions of grandeur, who refuses to recognize the OCA.  A much bigger problem.

As for as I know, there isn't an Autocephalous Orthodox Church of W. Europe, E. Asia and Australia/NZ (or for that matter, South America), there are not similar situations.

Quote
And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.
For the canonical majority, there is.
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« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2009, 03:27:44 AM »

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.

Whether we're recognized or not, I'm still an Orthodox Christian. If the EP wants to pretend we're not here, go ahead. I guess I can pretend he doesn't exist either. How's that feel?

My point is this: Why is it that the so called "spiritual father"/the "first among equals" of Orthodox Christians can be so pious, but so petty? What would he lose from recognizing the FACT that there is an autocephalous church here? Renoun? Authority? MONEY? Who cares whether there were Greeks first or Russians first in America? The vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the USA aren't either one: WE'RE AMERICAN. Sure my father's father's father's father came here from Ireland, but you don't see me seeking an Irish Orthodox Church.

I'm obviously not for papal authority, but at least they don't have this problem. I've never heard anybody say "I'm Greek Roman Catholic" or "Russian Roman Catholic" or whatever. At least they're unified in their schism...
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« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2009, 03:44:02 AM »

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.

Whether we're recognized or not, I'm still an Orthodox Christian. If the EP wants to pretend we're not here, go ahead. I guess I can pretend he doesn't exist either. How's that feel?
Interesting strawman argument. Where do you get the idea the OCA is not viewed as Orthodox?
Quote
My point is this: Why is it that the so called "spiritual father"/the "first among equals" of Orthodox Christians can be so pious, but so petty? What would he lose from recognizing the FACT that there is an autocephalous church here? Renoun? Authority? MONEY? Who cares whether there were Greeks first or Russians first in America? The vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the USA aren't either one: WE'RE AMERICAN. Sure my father's father's father's father came here from Ireland, but you don't see me seeking an Irish Orthodox Church.

Maybe where you are. Here we're still very much ethnic parishes.
Quote
I'm obviously not for papal authority, but at least they don't have this problem. I've never heard anybody say "I'm Greek Roman Catholic" or "Russian Roman Catholic" or whatever. At least they're unified in their schism...

Relevance?
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« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2009, 03:58:32 AM »

Interesting strawman argument. Where do you get the idea the OCA is not viewed as Orthodox?

Maybe where you are. Here we're still very much ethnic parishes.

Relevance?

I didn't mean to imply we're not viewed as Orthodox, it was more to question how one could ignore the administration of an autocephalous church. My error in not making that clear.

I would argue this: why does ethnicity matter? That's what I was trying to get across with the "Greek/Russian Roman Catholic" comment. To me, ethnicity shouldn't matter. We say that Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, no matter where in the world you are. But to outsiders, it doesn't look that way. I loathe the question "Are you Greek or Russian Orthodox?" I'm not either. At the least, I'm American Orthodox. At best, I'm Orthodox. Just Orthodox. My heritage shouldn't matter.
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« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2009, 04:12:41 AM »

I would argue this: why does ethnicity matter? That's what I was trying to get across with the "Greek/Russian Roman Catholic" comment. To me, ethnicity shouldn't matter. We say that Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, no matter where in the world you are. But to outsiders, it doesn't look that way. I loathe the question "Are you Greek or Russian Orthodox?" I'm not either. At the least, I'm American Orthodox. At best, I'm Orthodox. Just Orthodox. My heritage shouldn't matter.
In short, to me, ethnicity is transparent, especially when questioned as you describe. If my questioner asks, "Serbian?" , my answer is "Yes", if "Russian?", same answer, "Greek?", same again.
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« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2009, 07:55:13 AM »

I'm obviously not for papal authority, but at least they don't have this problem. I've never heard anybody say "I'm Greek Roman Catholic" or "Russian Roman Catholic" or whatever.

Actually, I hear it all the time: Italian Catholic, Polish Catholic, etc...  That's the ideal I would to see with the ethnicities in Orthodoxy: you can go into Polish or Italian Church in Chicago, and even if the mass is in English, you know the parish is Polish or Italian.

As for the Greek Roman Catholic, Russian Roman Catholic, Ukrainian Roman Catholic, etc., no I've never heard that.  I have heard Greek Catholic, Russian Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, etc.: some of those in the East who have submitted to the Vatican are adamant that they are NOT Roman.  I remember going through the literature on a random Sunday in the narthax of a "Ukrainian Catholic Church," and it was repleat with the claim "we are Ukrainian Catholic, not Roman Catholic!"

Quote
At least they're unified in their schism...

Not so much since Vatican II.  And then there's the question about Latinization of the Easterners and how much of the Vatican's theology they have to accept.
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« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2009, 08:50:14 AM »

Quote
I'll just reiterate, for now, that the PoM, ROCOR and OCA are fine for now.  Unlike a certain patriarchate with delusions of grandeur, who refuses to recognize the OCA.  A much bigger problem.

Actually you have this wrong. ROCOR agrees with the EP on the OCA.  ROCOR does not recognize OCA autocephaly, nor was she required to upon uniting with the MP.   This point has been well advertized by the ROCOR negotiators as it was a major point of concern within ROCOR.  I understand that this is because there was a time when ROCOR and OCA were united.  Then ROCOR officially broke communion with OCA and believes OCA went into schism from ROCOR.   

From the OCA perspective, their reason for the split was:

"Subordinating ourselves to this Synod, our Church (the Metropolia) in substance subordinates itself to a group of bishops who really have no jurisdiction themselves. Because of this, some people are inclined to speak only of our cooperation with the Synod. This term "cooperation," however is not correct because the acts of 1936-1937 definitely subjected our Church under the Synod Abroad (quoted in FitzGerald, p. 67). "

http://orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA

So, there are still issues left unresolved between OCA and ROCOR but we can see they are making steps towards working them out as is evidenced by Met. Jonah's visit with Met. Hilarion to discuss the status of priests who left OCA to join ROCOR.

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« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2009, 11:04:36 AM »

Quote
I'll just reiterate, for now, that the PoM, ROCOR and OCA are fine for now.  Unlike a certain patriarchate with delusions of grandeur, who refuses to recognize the OCA.  A much bigger problem.

Actually you have this wrong. ROCOR agrees with the EP on the OCA.

And Mount Athos agrees with ROCOR on the New Calendar. But that doesn't change the official stance of the primate of the local Church they belong to, namely the EP.  Similarly with ROCOR: their Primate is the Patriarch of Moscow, and he is bound by the statute of the Russian Orthodox Church to uphold the OCA's autocephaly.

This is precisely why I've avoided this issue, because it is quite murky it seems what exactly ROCOR's status is.

Perhaps I should speak plainly, if I haven't already.  I do admire the commitment of ROCOR to traditional Orthodoxy, but it is not pure.  Besides the Old Calendar issue, I've seen ROCOR advocate a nostalgia of the Church under the Czars.  Now, I wouldn't mind, being a monarchist, a restoration of the monarchy, and I do believe the late Imperial Family were Passion Bearers, but Russian Orthodoxy does not hinge on the Romanoffs.  The not so Holy Governing Synod was a serious aberration of Orthodox ecclesiology, and it was only with the removal of the Czars that its overthrowal and the restoration of the proper Patriarchate was possible.  As far as I am concerning, the Patriachate of Moscow went threw a centuries long Locum Tenens.

On the sillier side, I've know ROCOR people who would rather wretch their right arm out of its socket than write a word without a "hard sign" at the end (when the Communists reformed the orthography, it is said that "War and Peace" was shortened by hundreds of pages).

Case in point:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/roca_history.aspx
Quote
Without having visible contacts with her Church in the Homeland, the Russian Church Outside of Russia is in spiritual communion with all there who suffer and are persecuted, who languish in confinement and banishment.
And how is this different from Protestant "spiritual communion" with the early Church, because they can't show a visible link?  I've seen it argued, that ROCOR states it is conected with the "Historical Russian Orthodox Church."  What is that?  How does it differ from Old Believers?  He is the God of the Living, not the Dead.  One has to have a living, not historical, primate.  And ROCOR's primate (unless one goes with any one of the fourt "the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile") is Patriarch Kyrill I of Moscow.

Quote
The cessation of the separate existence of the Church Outside of Russia is needful and would be profitable only to the Soviet regime [and its successors in "free" Russia — ed.]. Through the clergy the latter desires to have control over the emigration and influence on it.

ROCOR lost this defense and its raison d'etre when it started opening parishes in the Motherland, "Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia inside Russia."  If the Church was so persecuted, how could they open parishes in the belly of the beast? Now there are those in the ROCiE who are still apoplectic over KGB, criticism that grates on my nerves like the Cuban exiles, mostly Batistas who sucked the country dry and made Castro possible.  Off in the safety of the US, they have been waiting for 50 years for Castro to fall "any day now," so they can go back and take the helm of the country. Excuse me?  You didn't suffer under Castro: what makes you think those who did want you back?  So to the aristocratic edge of much of ROCOR: if their class hadn't been so desolute and chasing the likes of Madame Blavatsky and eating cake while the lower, Christian (Christian and peasant were synomous in Russia) classes scrounged around for bread, perhaps the Revolution wouldn't have take the nasty edge it did.  To those who criticized Pat. Pimen, I would say, yes, I wouldn't do a lot of compromises that he was doing, but then again, neither did I have the weight of the responsibility of a hundred million souls on my conscience.  And neither did, nor do, his ROCOR critics.

ROCOR long used St. Tikhon's famous ukaze as its founding document.  Its final clause
Quote
10) All measures taken in places in accordances with the present instruction, afterwards, in the event of the restoration of the central ecclesiastical authority, must be subject to the confirmation of the latter.
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enuk_ukaz362.html

had been activated.  Central ecclesiastical authority has been restored, and said central ecclesiastical authority is bound by its own decions and Tomoi of the its own Holy Synod NOT to confirm ROCOR's measures as regards the OCA.

As for Ecumenism, I understand that ROCOR canonized two of the Imperial servants who were not Orthodox.  The Russian Church did not.

Having gone this far, I guess I might as well go on.
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enmat_akt.html
Quote
Act of Canonical Communion
We, the humble Alexy II, by God's mercy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, jointly with the Eminent Members of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, having gathered at a meeting of the Holy Synod (date) in the God-preserved city of Moscow; and the humble Laurus, Metropolitan of Eastern America and New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, jointly with the Eminent Bishops, members of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, having gathered (time, place);

Being guided by the effort towards reestablishing blessed peace, Divinely-decreed love, and brotherly unity in the common work in the harvest-fields of God within the Fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church and her faithful in the Fatherland and abroad, taking into consideration the ecclesiastical life of the Russian diaspora outside the canonical borders of the Moscow Patriarchate, as dictated by history;


This is a problem, as it plainly states that ROCOR is outside Moscow and Russia's jurisdiction.  In other words, the Act you should have been signing should have been with the EP, according to your agreement with his interpretation of things.

Quote
Taking into account that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia performs its service on the territories of many nations;

By this Act declare:

1. That the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, conducting its salvific service in the dioceses, parishes, monasteries, brotherhoods, and other ecclesiastical bodies that were formed through history, remains an indissoluble, self-governing part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church.

Of course, a problem is that ROCOR did dissolve a bit with the signing of the Act: Bishop Agafangel left and joined up with the Greek "Holy Synod in Resistence."  Fortuantely, the Bishop Varnava faction returned to union, leaving four ROCORettes.


Quote
2. That the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is independent in pastoral, educational, administrative, management, property, and civil matters, existing at the same time in canonical unity with the Fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church.


It is my understanding that the ROC has taken over ALL the properties formerly held by ROCOR in the Holy Land.

Note: ROCOR is NOT independent in eccelsiastical matters, under which fall the question of the OCA's autocephaly.

Quote
3. The supreme ecclesiastical, legislative, administrative, judicial and controlling authority in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is her Council of Bishops, convened by her Primate (First Hierarch), in accordance with the Regulations [ Polozheniye ] of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.


Of course, this is the wiggle room clause, under which you are denying OCA autocephaly.  The problem is that the Regulations (including the first) repeatedly refer to Ukaze 362, which, as quoted above, pulls the rug out from under ROCOR's refusal to acknowledge the OCA's autocephaly.

Quote
4. The First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is elected by her Council of Bishops. This election is confirmed, in accordance with the norms of Canon Law, by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.


This would be that "restoration of the central ecclesiastical authority" in the basis for clause 3, "subject[ing it] to the confirmation of the latter."  And as argued above, confirmation of OCA's autocephaly is something the statute of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church requires.

Quote
5. The name of the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church and the name of the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are commemorated during divine services in all churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia before the name of the ruling bishop in the prescribed order.

As not being autocephalous, the presence or absence of Met. Jonah in ROCOR's diptych's doesnt' come up much.  But in the prescribed order of the Russian Orthodox Church, Met. Jonah is in the diptychs.

Quote
6. Decisions on the establishment or liquidation of dioceses of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are made by her Council of Bishops in agreement with the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

When the resolution of the OCA/ROCOR (and /Patriarchal Parishes?) comes, it will be under this clause.

Quote
7. The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are elected by her Council of Bishops or, in cases foreseen by the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, by the Synod of Bishops. Such elections are confirmed in accordance with canonical norms by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

8. The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are members of the Local Council [ Pomestny Sobor ] and Council of Bishops [ Arkhiereiskij Sobor ] of the Russian Orthodox Church and also participate in the meetings of the Holy Synod in the prescribed order. Representatives of the clergy and laity of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia participate in the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church in the established manner.


As such, the bishops of ROCOR are bound by the statute of the Russian Orthodox Church, which makes them bound by the Tomos of Autocephaly.

Quote
9. The supreme instances of ecclesiastical authority for the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are the Local Council and the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church.

In other words, not being autocephalous, ROCOR isn't competant to make it own decisions on autocephaly.  The Russian Orthodox Church has already, in issuing the Tomos.

Quote
10. Decisions of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church extend to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia with consideration of the particularities described by the present Act, by the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and by the legislation of the nations in which she performs her ministry.


In other words, the Regulations of the ROCOR are not controlling. Including its decisions on the OCA.

Quote
11. Appeals on decisions of the supreme ecclesiastical court of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are directed to the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.


...who is bound by the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA.

Quote
12. Amendments to the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia by her supreme legislative authority are subject to the confirmation of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in such case as these changes bear a canonical character.


In other words, you are bound by the canonical Tomos issued by the PoM to the OCA.

Quote
13. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia receives her holy myrrh from the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.


And you are thereby bound to recognize that Met. Jonah blesses his own.

Quote
By this Act, canonical communion within the Local Russian Orthodox Church is hereby restored.

Acts issued previously which preclude the fullness of canonical communion are hereby deemed invalid or obsolete.


That would include ROCOR objections to the OCA.

Quote
The reestablishment of canonical communion will serve, God willing, towards the strengthening of the unity of the Church of Christ, of her witness in the contemporary world, promoting the fulfillment of the will of the Lord to “gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad” (John 11:52).


Which, as I said, the issues shouldn't be pushed right now, and it seems that Met. Jonah and the OCA (witnessed by the rash of concelebration after the signing) agree with that.

Quote
Let us bring thanks to All-Merciful God, Who through His omnipotent hand directed us to the path of healing the wounds of division and led us to the desired unity of the Russian Church in the homeland and abroad, to the glory of His Holy Name and to the good of His Holy Church and Her faithful flock. Through the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, may the Lord grant His blessing to the One Russian Church and Her flock both in the fatherland and in the diaspora.

Amen!

Quote
  ROCOR does not recognize OCA autocephaly,

Not being autocephalous, ROCOR has no say in the matter.

Quote
nor was she required to upon uniting with the MP. 

In for a penny, in for a pound.  You can be "a little pregnant" just so long.

Quote
This point has been well advertized by the ROCOR negotiators as it was a major point of concern within ROCOR.  I understand that this is because there was a time when ROCOR and OCA were united.  Then ROCOR officially broke communion with OCA and believes OCA went into schism from ROCOR.   

From the OCA perspective, their reason for the split was:

"Subordinating ourselves to this Synod, our Church (the Metropolia) in substance subordinates itself to a group of bishops who really have no jurisdiction themselves. Because of this, some people are inclined to speak only of our cooperation with the Synod. This term "cooperation," however is not correct because the acts of 1936-1937 definitely subjected our Church under the Synod Abroad (quoted in FitzGerald, p. 67). "
http://orthodoxwiki.org/ROCOR_and_OCA

Actually your source refers to the 7th All American Sobor, which tried to implement the final clause of St. Tikhon's ukaze 362
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/All-American_Sobor#Seventh_All-American_Sobor

Quote
So, there are still issues left unresolved between OCA and ROCOR but we can see they are making steps towards working them out as is evidenced by Met. Jonah's visit with Met. Hilarion to discuss the status of priests who left OCA to join ROCOR.

And there is no need, at least at present, to deal with ROCOR as with the EP and his Chief Secretary.
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« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2009, 11:09:46 AM »

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.

Whether we're recognized or not, I'm still an Orthodox Christian. If the EP wants to pretend we're not here, go ahead. I guess I can pretend he doesn't exist either. How's that feel?

Strawman alert!  He doesn't pretend you're not here; no one does.  He just doesn't think that you're Autocephalous; and there are others like him.  To them, you're still a part of the MP, albeit one that the MP allows to govern itself.
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« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2009, 11:56:03 AM »

Quote
I'll just reiterate, for now, that the PoM, ROCOR and OCA are fine for now.  Unlike a certain patriarchate with delusions of grandeur, who refuses to recognize the OCA.  A much bigger problem.

Actually you have this wrong. ROCOR agrees with the EP on the OCA.


The Act of Canonical Communion, 17th May 2007 reads:

    "Acts issued previously which preclude
    the fullness of canonical communion are
    hereby deemed invalid or obsolete."

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enmat_akt.html

This annulled all previous anti-OCA statements by the Synod of the Russian Church Abroad, as it also annulled ROCA's previous statements on the illegitimacy of the election of Patriarch Alexey II and the claim that he was a pseudo Patriarch.

I would be surprised if any of the bishops of the Church Abroad have participated in the Synod of Bishops in Moscow and announced to the Church of Russia that they refuse to accept the decision of the Patriarch and the Holy Synod to grant autocephaly.  Explain to me how bishops may disobey both their Patriarch and their Synod?  That path would lead them into the sad position of Bishop Diomid.  Have you seen, since we united with Moscow in May 2007, one statement from the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Church Abroad denying the autocephaly? 

The Russian Church Abroad has no choice, unless the bishops wish to publicly challenge their Patriarch, than to accept into communion whomsoever he is in communion with and to accept the status which he and the Synod of Bishops in Moscow has accorded them.  Anthing less reduces the Church of Russia to canonical chaos and brings in questions of disobedience to our Patriarch whom we commemorate as "our Great Lord and Master" at every service.

Bishop Jerome (as Fr John Shaw) was quite adamant on the Internet until recently that he did not recognise the autocephaly.  However he was present and he concelebrated at the recent installation of Metropolitan Jonah as the Metropolitan of the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.   One can only assume that once he assumed the position of bishop he became aware of factors which caused him to change his mind and to accept the autocephaly.


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« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2009, 12:09:45 PM »

And to many Orthodox Churches, there isn't one in N. America, either.

Whether we're recognized or not, I'm still an Orthodox Christian. If the EP wants to pretend we're not here, go ahead. I guess I can pretend he doesn't exist either. How's that feel?

Strawman alert!  He doesn't pretend you're not here; no one does.

Given the flagrant disregard of Canon 8 of Ephesus, he might as well.  His blocking of the OCA's voice at the June meeting, where the EP intends to storm ahead with deciding the OCA's fate, burns up the strawman defense canard.

The not so veiled threat of his Chief Secretary:
Quote
Instead of acknowledging the mercifulness of the other Patriarchates which, in spite the uncanonical status of the so-called OCA, accept it in communion, its representatives choose to subject them to such an unfair treatment that contributes nothing to the common cause of Orthodox unity.

Met. Jonah was merely calling them obedience to canon 8 of the Third Ecumenical Council, which canon explicitely says it touches the unity of all, because it speaks of the fair treatment of local Churches.  

And it is the EP's read that is uncanonical, not the OCA's Tomos of Autocephaly.

Btw, in answer to his question:
Quote
I would be interested to hear an explanation from His Eminence in response to the question “How will the so-called OCA contribute to our common Orthodox witness in diaspora by electing bishops holding titles which already exist for the same city”.

I would point out that in each and every case, the OCA bishop is the first holding titles in said cities.  Part of that is because of the EP's insistence that the fullness of time came in 450, and so all his bishops here until the recent reorganization held titles to cities that no longer exist, as Christian sees at least.  Met. Jonah, thankfully, needs neither the Phanar's berat nor its irade for any of these elections to their sees.


Quote
 He just doesn't think that you're Autocephalous; and there are others like him.

And there are others who think the EP is a neo-Ultramontanist, either with himself at the helm, or the Vatican, like Mount Athos.  I'm not quite clear what is the monks' offiical position on the EP.

Quote
 To them, you're still a part of the MP, albeit one that the MP allows to govern itself.

Hence why they should accept the MP's Tomos of Autocephaly to the OCA.
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« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2009, 02:06:06 PM »

I am following up the remark by ialmisry regarding Canon 8 of Ephesus (posted April 25, 2009 at  12:09:45 PM). I found this canon and am posting it below in case what ialmisry reference is not clear for some folks. Also, I highlighted those sections that I think are germane.

"Our brother bishop Rheginus, the beloved of God, and his fellow beloved of God bishops, Zeno and Evagrius, of the Province of Cyprus, have reported to us an innovation which has been introduced contrary to the ecclesiastical constitutions and the Canons of the Holy Apostles, and which touches the liberties of all.  Wherefore, since injuries affecting all require the more attention, as they cause the greater damage, and particularly when they are transgressions of an ancient custom; and since those excellent men, who have petitioned the Synod, have told us in writing and by word of mouth 235that the Bishop of Antioch has in this way held ordinations in Cyprus; therefore the Rulers of the holy churches in Cyprus shall enjoy, without dispute or injury, according to the Canons of the blessed Fathers and ancient custom, the right of performing for themselves the ordination of their excellent Bishops.  The same rule shall be observed in the other dioceses and provinces everywhere, so that none of the God beloved Bishops shall assume control of any province which has not heretofore, from the very beginning, been under his own hand or that of his predecessors. But if any one has violently taken and subjected [a Province], he shall give it up; lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of worldly honour be brought in under pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberty which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Deliverer of all men, hath given us by his own Blood.

Wherefore, this holy and ecumenical Synod has decreed that in every province the rights which heretofore, from the beginning, have belonged to it, shall be preserved to it, according to the old prevailing custom, unchanged and uninjured:  every Metropolitan having permission to take, for his own security, a copy of these acts.  And if any one shall bring forward a rule contrary to what is here determined, this holy and ecumenical Synod unanimously decrees that it shall be of no effect."

Granted that there has been less than crystal clear understanding regarding the provenance of this canon, a shown in the following note "This canon Photius does not recognize, for in the Preface to his Nomocanon he distinctly writes that there were but seven canons adopted by the Ephesine Synod, and in the first chapter of the first title he cites the preceding canon as the seventh, that is the last.  John of Antioch likewise says that there are but seven canons of Ephesus, but reckons this present canon as the seventh, from which Beveridge concludes that he rejects the Canon concerning Charisius (vii)." at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.xii.html (Christian Classics Ethereal Library).

In any case, I think that this canon is in agreement with the teachings of our Lord, His Holy Apostles and their true disciples, particularly when the basic principle behind this canon is spelled out: "lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of worldly honour be brought in under pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberty which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Deliverer of all men, hath given us by his own Blood."

Canon 8 is apparently primarily intended for the powerful Church leaders and local churches. I do hope that the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow take this canon to heart and go in the direction of liberty and eschew the vanities of worldly honor. Finally, to firmly tie it to this thread, I would appeal to the Patriarch of Constantinople to take this canon to heart: let go of its novel interpretation of canon 28 and let North American Orthodox jurisdictions work out their unity on their own.
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« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2009, 05:23:36 PM »

I didn't mean to imply we're not viewed as Orthodox, it was more to question how one could ignore the administration of an autocephalous church. My error in not making that clear.

I already corrected my argument, just to be clear. I don't think the EP doesn't believe I exist, or that the OCA isn't Orthodox, I'm saying he's ignoring the existence of an autocephalous church. It would be like me saying "I don't acknowledge there is an autocephalous Orthodox church in Greece, just because I don't want to." It's just ignorance to me.
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2009, 06:34:13 PM »

I've moved this thread to Free For All to allow 'discussion' to continue.
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2009, 06:35:27 PM »

I didn't mean to imply we're not viewed as Orthodox, it was more to question how one could ignore the administration of an autocephalous church. My error in not making that clear.

I already corrected my argument, just to be clear. I don't think the EP doesn't believe I exist, or that the OCA isn't Orthodox, I'm saying he's ignoring the existence of an autocephalous church. It would be like me saying "I don't acknowledge there is an autocephalous Orthodox church in Greece, just because I don't want to." It's just ignorance to me.

Do you recognise the autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church? Why not? Are you ignorant?
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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2009, 08:59:59 PM »

Quote
I'll just reiterate, for now, that the PoM, ROCOR and OCA are fine for now.  Unlike a certain patriarchate with delusions of grandeur, who refuses to recognize the OCA.  A much bigger problem.

Actually you have this wrong. ROCOR agrees with the EP on the OCA.


The Act of Canonical Communion, 17th May 2007 reads:

    "Acts issued previously which preclude
    the fullness of canonical communion are
    hereby deemed invalid or obsolete."

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enmat_akt.html

This annulled all previous anti-OCA statements by the Synod of the Russian Church Abroad, as it also annulled ROCA's previous statements on the illegitimacy of the election of Patriarch Alexey II and the claim that he was a pseudo Patriarch.

I would be surprised if any of the bishops of the Church Abroad have participated in the Synod of Bishops in Moscow and announced to the Church of Russia that they refuse to accept the decision of the Patriarch and the Holy Synod to grant autocephaly.  Explain to me how bishops may disobey both their Patriarch and their Synod?  That path would lead them into the sad position of Bishop Diomid.  Have you seen, since we united with Moscow in May 2007, one statement from the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Church Abroad denying the autocephaly? 

The Russian Church Abroad has no choice, unless the bishops wish to publicly challenge their Patriarch, than to accept into communion whomsoever he is in communion with and to accept the status which he and the Synod of Bishops in Moscow has accorded them.  Anthing less reduces the Church of Russia to canonical chaos and brings in questions of disobedience to our Patriarch whom we commemorate as "our Great Lord and Master" at every service.

Bishop Jerome (as Fr John Shaw) was quite adamant on the Internet until recently that he did not recognise the autocephaly.  However he was present and he concelebrated at the recent installation of Metropolitan Jonah as the Metropolitan of the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.   One can only assume that once he assumed the position of bishop he became aware of factors which caused him to change his mind and to accept the autocephaly.




Fr. John Shaw was appointed to head a council to study OCA history as it pertains to ROCOR.  He reminded those debating of this fact last year.  His ordination to Bishop was in that same year.   Just because he attended the OCA enthronment does not mean he has changed his position on OCA autocephaly.  Seeing as he was appointed to head the council to study OCA history as it pertains to ROCOR, it would make sense that Fr. John Shaw provided information to the Synod of Bishops to support the position that he put forward (which I am told is the majority opinion in ROCOR).  Also, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff clearly explained that the OCA autocephaly issue was a point of discussion during the MP negotiations.   He explained that the MP does NOT require ROCOR to recognize OCA autocephaly.   In fact, last year Fr. John Shaw also pointed out that "Many in the Patriarchate would, in fact, like to revoke the 1970 Tomos: but if they did that, the current troubles of the OCA would then become an issue for the Patriarchate. What it all amounts to is that the OCA remains in much the same position as before the 1970 Tomos, but with a claim to autocephaly that is not generally recognized."

You can read the rest of the statement here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-tradition/message/116605

Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos.  Less mess to take on.  There are many statements that Fr. John Shaw and Fr. Alexander Lebedeff have made last year which explain exactly what ROCOR's position is towards the OCA.   Judging from these statements the MP knows exactly where ROCOR stands.  Clearly ROCOR has the MP's blessing on the matter.

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« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2009, 09:37:45 PM »

 Judging from these statements the MP knows exactly where ROCOR stands.  Clearly ROCOR has the MP's blessing on the matter.



That is pure conjecture.  Nothing clear about it at all.  What would be clear is if the Church of Russia issued a statement proclaiming that Metropolitan Hilarion and the other bishops on the Russian Synod deny the autocephaly of the OCA granted in 1970 and the Patriarch and the Church of Russia have no opposition to its bishops denying the autocephaly and denying Moscow's authority to grant it.   

Btw, the ROCA Commission on the OCA is now defunct.  If I recall correctly, it never met even once.
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« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2009, 10:22:33 PM »

I didn't mean to imply we're not viewed as Orthodox, it was more to question how one could ignore the administration of an autocephalous church. My error in not making that clear.

I already corrected my argument, just to be clear. I don't think the EP doesn't believe I exist, or that the OCA isn't Orthodox, I'm saying he's ignoring the existence of an autocephalous church. It would be like me saying "I don't acknowledge there is an autocephalous Orthodox church in Greece, just because I don't want to." It's just ignorance to me.

Do you recognise the autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

No.

Quote
Why not?

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.

The autonomous Archbishop of Ohrid is the canonical primate of Macedonia.


Quote
Are you ignorant?

Maybe, but not here.
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« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2009, 10:23:26 PM »

Dear Friends:

Christ Is Risen !   Truly, He is Risen !

I will not pretend to have the knowledge to participate in the various arguments over who is right, and who is wrong here; but I would like to try to explore why this is such an emotionally fraught discussion.

We are all heirs to a difficult, and often tragic, history that conditions our perceptions and views of the church. It seems to me that the statements made by Metropolitan Jonah, Archimandrite Elpiphodoros and Metropolitan Gerasimos come not from arrogance and bellicosity, as much as from frustration and fear.

It may be useful to rehearse some history. The Russian American Metropolia (the precursor the the OCA) did not seek autocephaly on a whim. It did so because it had no other choice at the time. In 1924 the Russian Patriarch, St Tikhon had died, and the four locum tenens he named were imprisoned by the Bolsheviks.  Metropolitan Sergei, the locum tenens of the locum tenens, issued a demand that all clergy under his authority, both in and outside of Russia, sign an oath of loyalty to the new Soviet regime. The clergy in America could not comply with this demand. It was the height of the "Red Scare" when Russian immigrants thought to be communist sympathisers were deported in droves. Had the clergy of the Russian American Metropolia signd this oath, the church would have been destroyed. Therefore, they chose to declare the Metropolia "temporarily autocephalous" until such time as the situation could be normalized. At that time, they could not know that the Bolshevik regime would last for so many decades!

After the trials of the Great Depression and WWII, the leaders of the Metropolia sought to normalized their status. In doing so, they did not disregard or defy the Ecumenical Patriarch. On the contrary, Metropolitans Leonty and Iriney appealed first to Patriarch Athenagoras, of blessed memory. They requested that the Metropolia be accepted under the Omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarch, as had the Russian Exarchate of Western Europe. Sadly, His All Holiness refused this request and advised them to negotiate their status with the Patriarch of Moscow.

In obedience to His All Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras, they began to do so, despite the extreme complexity and difficulty. Remember, this was during the height of the Cold War! I was told by one clergyman, who witnessed that period, that many of the real negotiations took place in hotel elevators - the one place that the Moscow clergy could evade their KGB minders !  When these negotiations resulted in the OCA's autocephaly, the Ecumenical Patriarchate refused to accept it; but never offered an alternative to it !  Thus the OCA has lingered in canonical limbo for decades. What is more, it appears that the fate of the OCA is to be decided at the upcoming Synod of Primates; and the OCA will not even be called to speak on its own behalf.

Father Elpiphodoros speaks of the "mercifulness" of the churches that allow the OCA into communion, despite its uncanonical status. This is a little like a Father telling his children they can stay in the house despite being illegitimate. He complains that the OCA has abused the kindness of the Ancient Patriarchates. The fact is that the founders of the OCA always showed the utmost deference to the Ancient Sees, and especially to the Ecumenical Throne. At no time in the past, did a leader of the OCA declare that the OCA was the sole legitimate church in America. The OCA's publications from the 1970's repeatedly stated that the OCA's autocephaly was not an end in itself; but merely a stepping stone to the the real goal, a unified Orthodox Church in America. What is more, they repeatedly asserted that the vehicle to achieve that goal, was SCOBA, which they agreed was to always be chaired by the Primate of the Greek Archdiocese, as representative of he Ecumenical Patriarch.  In short, the early leaders of the OCA, always believed that a unified Orthodox Church in America should, and would, come about with the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Sadly, after all these decades that has not happened. The OCA has lived its life for decades, in an ecclesiastical limbo, which has had very real effects on its life. For example, the Monastery of the Ascension, was founded by converts from the Episcopal church. After many years in the OCA, they developed doubts about their own legitimacy, and went on a pilgrimage to Mt Athos, where these hieromonks were re-baptized. Having renounced their chrismation into the OCA and their ordinations by the OCA, they were deposed by Archbishop Dmitri - and are now part of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. In many ways, the recent scandals in the OCA are all tied to a desperate need to find legitimacy by winning friends and influencing others - a plan which obviously did not work.

The point is, that the leaders of the OCA have lived for decades in limbo, damned it they do, and damned if they don't; and I suspect that it is this frustration, and the fear of what might happen at the upcoming Synod that prompted Metropolitan Jonah's audacious, and admittedly uncharitable remarks- remarks for which he has publicly apologized.

On the side of the representatives of the Holy Ecumenical see, there is not need to detail the heroic and tragic struggle for the survival of the Beacon of Orthodoxy. In many ways, it is only the honor paid to the Holy Throne, that has prevented its destruction by the Turks. Thus, any suggestion of a diminution of that honor and standing, may be perceived as an existential threat, even if such a statement was never meant to be so.

Let us pray that all the parties involved can step back from the rhetorical barricades and "forgive all by the Resurrection" !

On happier; but related note, I'd like to pass on to you a story shared by one of our parishioners this Pascha. Their grandson participated in the OCF pilgrimage to the Phanar. In addition to their prayers and visits to the Holy Places, these young Orthodox Americans performed service by cleaning and restoring an Orthodox cemetery in Constantinople which had been vandalized and neglected. This young man's parents, with great pride, showed us the picture of their son: a rake in one hand, reaching out to receive a blessing and kiss the Patriarch's hand. This young man's parents related to us that His All-Holiness was overcome, with tears in his eyes, to see the love of these young Orthodox Americans for this sacred place. Let's hope all our leaders can take a cue from these young people !  

God's Blessings to All

Christ Is Risen
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« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2009, 10:25:36 PM »

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.
I wasn't actually asking you, but anyway, what makes you say that the Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church is not an Orthodox Synod? What are your criteria for an autocephalous Orthodox Synod?
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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2009, 10:33:10 PM »

Fr. John Shaw was appointed to head a council to study OCA history as it pertains to ROCOR.  He reminded those debating of this fact last year.  His ordination to Bishop was in that same year.   Just because he attended the OCA enthronment does not mean he has changed his position on OCA autocephaly. 

Sooo, he was attending an uncanonical act?

Quote
Seeing as he was appointed to head the council to study OCA history as it pertains to ROCOR, it would make sense that Fr. John Shaw provided information to the Synod of Bishops to support the position that he put forward (which I am told is the majority opinion in ROCOR).  Also, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff clearly explained that the OCA autocephaly issue was a point of discussion during the MP negotiations.   He explained that the MP does NOT require ROCOR to recognize OCA autocephaly.   In fact, last year Fr. John Shaw also pointed out that "Many in the Patriarchate would, in fact, like to revoke the 1970 Tomos:

There are many in Russia who want Alaska back too.

Quote
but if they did that, the current troubles of the OCA would then become an issue for the Patriarchate. What it all amounts to is that the OCA remains in much the same position as before the 1970 Tomos, but with a claim to autocephaly that is not generally recognized." [/i]

Just by a plurality of Orthodoxy.  What is the change in the position of ROCOR since the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion?

Quote
You can read the rest of the statement here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-tradition/message/116605

Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos. 

The loss of face that would bring on the Patriarch going into the Council of Cyprus this June very definitely a greater incentive for the MP to live up to the word of his Holy Synod.


Quote
Less mess to take on. 

Ask Metropolitan Phillip on that one.

Quote
There are many statements that Fr. John Shaw and Fr. Alexander Lebedeff have made last year which explain exactly what ROCOR's position is towards the OCA. 

Illinois can have any foreign policy it wants, but its the one in Washington that counts.

Quote
 Judging from these statements the MP knows exactly where ROCOR stands.  Clearly ROCOR has the MP's blessing on the matter.

No, rather his economia.
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2009, 10:46:46 PM »

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.
I wasn't actually asking you, but anyway, what makes you say that the Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church is not an Orthodox Synod?

Didn't say it wasn't.  Just that it is a schismatic one.

Quote
What are your criteria for an autocephalous Orthodox Synod?

Independence, not being part of a divide and conquer policy, is one.  Macedonia was in every way under the central control of Tito's Belgrade.  There was no reason for her not to be under the Patriarch of Belgrad as well.

Now, is a different time.  Macendonia (not Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia) is independent.  As I understand it, the canonical implications is that the Macedonian hierarchy is not recognized as such, but the Faithful are often admitted to communion and the priests to concelebration.  Myself, I am for an autocephalous Church, but one that has made peace with the Mother Church of Serbia.
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« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2009, 10:48:07 PM »

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.
Oh, I see.
Therefore, by this criterion, you do not recognise the Patriarchate of Moscow either, since the Patriarchate was re-instituted by an an Act of Stalin in 1943 who recognised the Temporary Patriarchal Council established by Patriarch Sergius I (before he was elected as Patriarch). Stalin also  permitted elections to take place which established Patriarch Sergius as Patriarch in return for the loyalty and assistance of the Church to the Soviet State.
Have a read of the history, it's fascinating:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Sergius_I
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« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2009, 11:04:56 PM »

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.
Oh, I see.
Therefore, by this criterion, you do not recognise the Patriarchate of Moscow either, since the Patriarchate was re-instituted by an an Act of Stalin in 1943

The Russian Church had been Autocephalous half a millenium earlier, and a Patriarchate almost as long.  The long locum tenens of the Holy Governing Synod and the shorter hiatus after the Patriarchate had been restored under St. Tikhon didn't change that, any more than the revolving door of Patriarchs in Constantinople under the Turks (EP Cyril Lukaris, for instance, was enthroned six times:1612, 1620–1623, 1623–1633, 1633–1634, 1634–1635, 1637–1638, managing to squeeze in a stint as Pope of Alexandria 1601–1620) had any effect on the Autocephaly of Constantinople.

Quote
who recognised the Temporary Patriarchal Council established by Patriarch Sergius I (before he was elected as Patriarch). Stalin also  permitted elections to take place which established Patriarch Sergius as Patriarch in return for the loyalty and assistance of the Church to the Soviet State.

And this differs from the Czar allowing things?  Or the Sultan giving the EP his berat and irade?  Did the succession of deposition and elevations of EP at the whims of the emperors (e.g. SS Patriarchs Ignatius and Photios) effect the See of New Rome, as Old Rome claims?

Quote
Have a read of the history, it's fascinating:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Sergius_I

No, not terribly interesting.  If I want Byzantine politics, I'll look to Constantinople.
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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2009, 11:08:01 PM »

And this differs from the Czar allowing things? 
In absolutely no way whatsoever. So I don't understand why you have a problem when Tito does it.....
Just trying to follow your "logic" Smiley
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2009, 11:23:24 PM »

And this differs from the Czar allowing things? 
In absolutely no way whatsoever. So I don't understand why you have a problem when Tito does it.....
Just trying to follow your "logic" Smiley

The Czar centralized things in the capital.
Stalin centralized things in the capital.
The Emperor centralized things in the capital.
The Sultan centralized things in the capital.
Tito centralized things in the capital.
Except the Church administration, that he wanted to divide up.
Since all decisions were being made in Belgrad, there was no need of even a pretense of any independence in Ohrid, as there was none in Skopje.
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« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2009, 03:25:48 AM »

Do you recognise the autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church? Why not? Are you ignorant?

Well to be honest, I actually don't know what the situation is that you're referring to. I can't engage in academic debate on a topic about which I know nothing. Perhaps I should find out!  Smiley
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« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2009, 03:45:22 AM »

Perhaps I should find out!

Thats a good idea. Do a little research and you will find that no Orthodox Church recognises their autocephaly- including yours. Do you think this is simply "ignorance", or might there be something else? Don't assume that because some Churches do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA that this is due to "ignorance".
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« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2009, 04:03:00 AM »

Perhaps I should find out!

Thats a good idea. Do a little research and you will find that no Orthodox Church recognises their autocephaly- including yours. Do you think this is simply "ignorance", or might there be something else? Don't assume that because some Churches do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA that this is due to "ignorance".

yes, in the case of Constantinople and the CoG, it's feined ignorance and willful disobedience to the canons, as shown by the speech of Bp/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios to the CoG, and innovation in canons.
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« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2009, 05:46:32 AM »

The Russian clergy of these monasteries serve the Liturgy on antimensia signed and supplied by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and he is commemorated at every church service as the ruling hierarch.   The Russian Church Abroad maintains no bishop on the territory of the Church of Jerusalem but the monasteries are overseen by an Archimandrite.  At this time it is Fr Joasaph (McLellan) who until recently was a Professor at Princeton.

So it's not an overlapping jurisdiction - if they answer to the JP, and commemorate him, and have no bishop other than the JP over them, then they're clergy of the JP who happen to speak Russian (and then they're  not "ROCOR clergy" who happen to be in Israel/Palestine).

I am not sure if the logic holds up.   Our priests and monks and nuns in the Holy Land continue to be members of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.   Their assignments are decided by the Russian Church Abroad, and when the Russian bishops wish to re-assign them back to Australia or America, no consent is required from the Patriarch of Jerusalem.  Nor is any consent required from the JP for the ordination of one of our monks nor the installation of an abbess.  I think that this shows they are not clergy of the JP but clergy and monastics present in the Holy Land by his grace and goodwill.
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« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2009, 05:46:32 AM »

P.S., I am aware that other parts of the "Diaspora" are up on the agenda, but we know where the crux of the matter is.

Uh-huh.  The model for the process here will be used to figure out similar issues in areas like W. Europe, E. Asia, and Australia / NZ (or, "North and South George Islands" Wink Cheesy ).

Cleveland,

We have a master plan already in place:

R.O.M.E............ Russian Orthodox Metropolia of Europe
.
R.O.M.A............ Russian Orthodox Metropolia of the Americas

R.O.M.A.N.Z.....  Russian Orthodox Metropolia of Australia and New Zealand

I think I posted this brilliant strategy once before but the Search Engine cannot find it since it won't work with something like R.O.M.A.N.Z.  It insists that it wants a whole word of at least four letters.
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« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2009, 06:40:57 AM »

yes, in the case of Constantinople and the CoG, it's feined ignorance and willful disobedience to the canons, as shown by the speech of Bp/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios to the CoG, and innovation in canons.
Is it? How nice.
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« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2009, 07:09:03 AM »

The Russian clergy of these monasteries serve the Liturgy on antimensia signed and supplied by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and he is commemorated at every church service as the ruling hierarch.   The Russian Church Abroad maintains no bishop on the territory of the Church of Jerusalem but the monasteries are overseen by an Archimandrite.  At this time it is Fr Joasaph (McLellan) who until recently was a Professor at Princeton.

So it's not an overlapping jurisdiction - if they answer to the JP, and commemorate him, and have no bishop other than the JP over them, then they're clergy of the JP who happen to speak Russian (and then they're  not "ROCOR clergy" who happen to be in Israel/Palestine).

I am not sure if the logic holds up.   Our priests and monks and nuns in the Holy Land continue to be members of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.   Their assignments are decided by the Russian Church Abroad, and when the Russian bishops wish to re-assign them back to Australia or America, no consent is required from the Patriarch of Jerusalem.  Nor is any consent required from the JP for the ordination of one of our monks nor the installation of an abbess.  I think that this shows they are not clergy of the JP but clergy and monastics present in the Holy Land by his grace and goodwill.

Yes, I think the canons don't require a canonical transfer to be in a diocese, just that the credentials are presented to the bishop and he accepts them.
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« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2009, 07:10:40 AM »

yes, in the case of Constantinople and the CoG, it's feined ignorance and willful disobedience to the canons, as shown by the speech of Bp/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios to the CoG, and innovation in canons.
Is it? How nice.
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I count on SS Innocent, Tikhon and Raphael, Enlighteners of America, to see to that.
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« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2009, 07:13:49 AM »

And may your hopes be fulfilled completely.  Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2009, 08:52:38 AM »

 Judging from these statements the MP knows exactly where ROCOR stands.  Clearly ROCOR has the MP's blessing on the matter.



That is pure conjecture.  Nothing clear about it at all.  What would be clear is if the Church of Russia issued a statement proclaiming that Metropolitan Hilarion and the other bishops on the Russian Synod deny the autocephaly of the OCA granted in 1970 and the Patriarch and the Church of Russia have no opposition to its bishops denying the autocephaly and denying Moscow's authority to grant it.   

Btw, the ROCA Commission on the OCA is now defunct.  If I recall correctly, it never met even once.

You have the secretary who was in on the negotiations telling us this.  You have Fr. John Shaw who became Bishop Jeromoe telling us this.   If the ROCOR commission is now defunct, then its mission was achieved.  I don't even see why there would have to be any meetings on this issue anyway.  All of the history has been recorded and Fr. John Shaw had been making the same statements as late as Nov. 08.

As to the teeth of the OCA autocephaly, it is hard to see any when even Met. Jonah does not expect other jurisdictions to recognize it.   In fact, he is willing to see a NEW organization formed as a solution to unity in America.   

He said, "It is imperative for us to come together. Not for all the other churches, the Antiochians and the Serbians and the Bulgarians and the Romanians and everyone, to join the OCA, but to come together in a new organization of Orthodoxy in North American that brings us all together as one Church, even just pulling together all our existing organizations so that all the bishops sit on one Synod, so that all the Metropolitans get together on a special Synod or something like that."

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Gc6xcnh8JdUJ:www.dosoca.org/files/Pan-orthodox-talk-4_7_09.pdf+Metropolitan+jonah+dallas+transcript+%22Leave+it+alone%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Why isn't Met. Jonah simply demaning everyone else to recognize OCA autocephaly and come under her omopor as the rightful American Church, if that is what they are?

Given the above statement by Met. Jonah and the statements made by high ranking ROCOR clergy and administrators I don't see where ROCOR will be expected to submit to OCA autocephaly if OCA herself does not demand it be recognized.



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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2009, 12:14:20 PM »

There are some trends in this thread (and others) that bother me.

- Regarding the back and forth on ROCOR v. OCA, Canon 28 v. Canon 8, prerogatives of the Moscow Patriarchate v. Constantinople Patriarchate, etc., the discussion has been entirely too focused on canons, as if they are laws. As has been pointed out before, canons are simply rules that are tailored to specific historic circumstances. As such, what is more important: the spirit or the letter of a canon?

- Furthermore, many arguments are based exclusively on the canons with nary a mention of the Holy Scriptures.

- I see another phenomenon, that of the dueling Saints. One says I back up my argument by Saint X plus this and that theologian, and the other says Saint Y plus that and this theologian.

- Some folks seem to make a fetish of the evolving mind of the Church as if the Holy Trinity, as manifested in the Holy Scriptures, is of lesser importance or less germane.

There has to be an order of authority to the sources that we cite. Otherwise, we will be forever talking to ourselves. Akin to the body of laws that any civilization has, our highest authority (or fundamental law) has got to be the Holy Scriptures. Next in line ought to be the doctrinal findings of the ecumenical councils (or Supreme Court decisions). Next would be the non-doctrinal canons (statutes), followed by actual practice of the Church that is not addressed in the previous tiers. We really should defer to this hierarchy of authorities whenever there is a conflict or disagreement.

After setting up the basis of my argument, I would say that the situation in North America should be looked in the following manner:

At the lowest authority level or actual practice: There are many jurisdictions or exarchates in North America, most of which are in communion with each other even though many do not accept the autocephaly of the only indigenous church--the Orthodox Church in America--primarily because of the position of their mother Church.

At the next level or canons: There are conflicting interpretations of the canons, all very old and all set up in entirely different circumstances. We all have read (countless times) about canon 28 and Canon 8, among others.

At the next level or doctrine: There does not seem to be any problems (as proven by the majority of the jurisdictions being in communion of each other).

Finally, at the highest level or the Holy Scriptures: The question is whether any of the teachings of our savior or of His Holy Apostles are definitive regarding the situation in North America. I have some ideas but, absent some basic agreement to the order of authority I laid out, it would be quite futile.
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« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2009, 12:29:51 PM »

 Judging from these statements the MP knows exactly where ROCOR stands.  Clearly ROCOR has the MP's blessing on the matter.



That is pure conjecture.  Nothing clear about it at all.  What would be clear is if the Church of Russia issued a statement proclaiming that Metropolitan Hilarion and the other bishops on the Russian Synod deny the autocephaly of the OCA granted in 1970 and the Patriarch and the Church of Russia have no opposition to its bishops denying the autocephaly and denying Moscow's authority to grant it.   

Btw, the ROCA Commission on the OCA is now defunct.  If I recall correctly, it never met even once.

You have the secretary who was in on the negotiations telling us this.  You have Fr. John Shaw who became Bishop Jeromoe telling us this.   If the ROCOR commission is now defunct, then its mission was achieved.  I don't even see why there would have to be any meetings on this issue anyway.  All of the history has been recorded and Fr. John Shaw had been making the same statements as late as Nov. 08.

And ROCOR's primate, Patriarch Kyrill, is hosting Primate Metropolitan Jonah in the patriarchate as we write.

Quote
As to the teeth of the OCA autocephaly, it is hard to see any when even Met. Jonah does not expect other jurisdictions to recognize it.   In fact, he is willing to see a NEW organization formed as a solution to unity in America.   

He said, "It is imperative for us to come together. Not for all the other churches, the Antiochians and the Serbians and the Bulgarians and the Romanians and everyone, to join the OCA, but to come together in a new organization of Orthodoxy in North American that brings us all together as one Church, even just pulling together all our existing organizations so that all the bishops sit on one Synod, so that all the Metropolitans get together on a special Synod or something like that."

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Gc6xcnh8JdUJ:www.dosoca.org/files/Pan-orthodox-talk-4_7_09.pdf+Metropolitan+jonah+dallas+transcript+%22Leave+it+alone%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Why isn't Met. Jonah simply demaning everyone else to recognize OCA autocephaly and come under her omopor as the rightful American Church, if that is what they are?

Economia.

Quote
Given the above statement by Met. Jonah and the statements made by high ranking ROCOR clergy and administrators I don't see where ROCOR will be expected to submit to OCA autocephaly if OCA herself does not demand it be recognized.

At present, I see not reason for push come to shove.
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« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2009, 03:41:03 PM »


Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos.  Less mess to take on. 

It does not seem likely that the Church of Russia has any intention to revoke the Tomos.  In fact it is only a month ago that the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the US were ordered to commeprate Metropolitan Jonah liturgically at the Great Entrance after Patriarch Kirill.  This has never happened before and is an indication that the Patriarch and the Holy Synod in Moscow are sending the message that they are standing firmly behind Metropolitan Jonah and the OCA.

"31.03.2009

"Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services

 
"It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.” "

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en

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« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2009, 08:29:40 PM »


Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos.  Less mess to take on. 

It does not seem likely that the Church of Russia has any intention to revoke the Tomos.  In fact it is only a month ago that the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the US were ordered to commeprate Metropolitan Jonah liturgically at the Great Entrance after Patriarch Kirill.  This has never happened before and is an indication that the Patriarch and the Holy Synod in Moscow are sending the message that they are standing firmly behind Metropolitan Jonah and the OCA.

"31.03.2009

"Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services

 
"It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.” "

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en



And no such directive has come to ROCOR.   Don't you think there is something odd about that seeing as we have Met. Hilarion of Eastern America and NY.   Looks like we have an overlap of territory yet the MP recognizes to Metropolitans of the same territory. 

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« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2009, 09:48:34 PM »


Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos.  Less mess to take on. 

It does not seem likely that the Church of Russia has any intention to revoke the Tomos.  In fact it is only a month ago that the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the US were ordered to commeprate Metropolitan Jonah liturgically at the Great Entrance after Patriarch Kirill.  This has never happened before and is an indication that the Patriarch and the Holy Synod in Moscow are sending the message that they are standing firmly behind Metropolitan Jonah and the OCA.

"31.03.2009

"Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services

 
"It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.” "

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en



And no such directive has come to ROCOR. 

Given the pastoral concerns of those like yourself, I don't think it should.  Economia.

Quote
 Don't you think there is something odd about that seeing as we have Met. Hilarion of Eastern America and NY. 

No, given the circumstances, not particularly.

Quote
 Looks like we have an overlap of territory yet the MP recognizes to Metropolitans of the same territory. 

No, just one.  Met. Jonah.
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« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2009, 01:47:13 AM »


Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos.  Less mess to take on. 

It does not seem likely that the Church of Russia has any intention to revoke the Tomos.  In fact it is only a month ago that the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the US were ordered to commeprate Metropolitan Jonah liturgically at the Great Entrance after Patriarch Kirill.  This has never happened before and is an indication that the Patriarch and the Holy Synod in Moscow are sending the message that they are standing firmly behind Metropolitan Jonah and the OCA.
 
"31.03.2009
 
"Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services
 
 
"It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.” "
 
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en
 


And no such directive has come to ROCOR.

There is a difference between the Patriarchal parishes in the US which form a vicariate supervised by a Vicar Bishop who belongs to the Diocese of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad which is a Self-Governing Church (as is Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and the Ukraine.)
 

Quote
Don't you think there is something odd about that seeing as we have Met. Hilarion of Eastern America and NY.   Looks like we have an overlap of territory yet the MP recognizes to Metropolitans of the same territory. 

There is much that is odd about the multi-jurisdictional chaos which prevails throughout the Diaspora.
 
But one thing you can be certain of is that neither Metropolitan Laurus nor Metropolitan Hilarion told Patriarch Alexey that Moscow was guilty of an uncanonical Act when it gave autonomy to the Orthodox Church in America and that the Russian Church Abroad refuses to accept the Act of Autonomy.
 
Have you asked your bishop if he has been to Moscow, participated in the Russian Synod and said this to the Patriarch and the Holy Synod?   Have ANY ROCA bishops said this to Moscow?

Does your parish priest not commemorate the Patriarch as the supreme authority of the Russian Church Abroad?   He commemorates him as  "our Great Lord and Father" five times in the course of the Liturgy?   

So from where does anyone in the Russian Church Abroad derive the authority to challenge the authority of Patriarch and the Holy Synod: "The OCA Tomos of Autonomy is uncanonical.  Your Holiness has made a grave mistake.  We agree with the Church of Constantinople that you acted uncanonically and we, like the mouse that roared, do not recognise your authority in this matter."
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« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2009, 01:47:14 AM »

It does not seem likely that the Church of Russia has any intention to revoke the Tomos.  In fact it is only a month ago that the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the US were ordered to commeprate Metropolitan Jonah liturgically at the Great Entrance after Patriarch Kirill.  This has never happened before and is an indication that the Patriarch and the Holy Synod in Moscow are sending the message that they are standing firmly behind Metropolitan Jonah and the OCA.

"31.03.2009

"Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services

 
"It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.” "

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en



And no such directive has come to ROCOR.    Don't you think there is something odd about that seeing as we have Met. Hilarion of Eastern America and NY.  


Well, it has taken 39 years for such a directive to be sent to the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the States!   From 1970 to 2009!    Grin
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« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2009, 01:50:52 AM »


Considering the statement above, any cleaning up of the OCA might very well be a bigger incentive for the MP to revoke the Tomos.  Less mess to take on. 

It does not seem likely that the Church of Russia has any intention to revoke the Tomos.  In fact it is only a month ago that the Russian Patriarchal parishes in the US were ordered to commeprate Metropolitan Jonah liturgically at the Great Entrance after Patriarch Kirill.  This has never happened before and is an indication that the Patriarch and the Holy Synod in Moscow are sending the message that they are standing firmly behind Metropolitan Jonah and the OCA.
 
"31.03.2009
 
"Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services
 
 
"It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.” "
 
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en
 


And no such directive has come to ROCOR.

There is a difference between the Patriarchal parishes in the US which form a vicariate supervised by a Vicar Bishop who belongs to the Diocese of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad which is a Self-Governing Church (as is Estonia, Latvia, Moldova and the Ukraine.)
 

Quote
Don't you think there is something odd about that seeing as we have Met. Hilarion of Eastern America and NY.   Looks like we have an overlap of territory yet the MP recognizes to Metropolitans of the same territory. 

There is much that is odd about the multi-jurisdictional chaos which prevails throughout the Diaspora.
 
But one thing you can be certain of is that neither Metropolitan Laurus nor Metropolitan Hilarion told Patriarch Alexey that Moscow was guilty of an uncanonical Act when it gave autonomy to the Orthodox Church in America and that the Russian Church Abroad refuses to accept the Act of Autonomy.
 
Have you asked your bishop if he has been to Moscow, participated in the Russian Synod and said this to the Patriarch and the Holy Synod?   Have ANY ROCA bishops said this to Moscow?

Does your parish priest not commemorate the Patriarch as the supreme authority of the Russian Church Abroad?   He commemorates him as  "our Great Lord and Father" five times in the course of the Liturgy?   

So from where does anyone in the Russian Church Abroad derive the authority to challenge the authority of Patriarch and the Holy Synod: "The OCA Tomos of Autonomy is uncanonical.  Your Holiness has made a grave mistake.  We agree with the Church of Constantinople that you acted uncanonically and we, like the mouse that roared, do not recognise your authority in this matter."
Actually, this thing you call the "autonomy" of the OCA is actually "autocephaly".  Not to be a nitpick, but I think accuracy of terms rather important to this discussion. Wink
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« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2009, 06:45:02 AM »

Actually, this thing you call the "autonomy" of the OCA is actually "autocephaly".  Not to be a nitpick, but I think accuracy of terms rather important to this discussion. Wink

Totally in agreement.  It was stupid of me to use the word 'autonomy' when I meant 'autocephaly.'     Embarrassed
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« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2009, 05:33:08 PM »

Thread Split:  Discussions about the OCA and ROCA can now be found here:  What's up with some in ROCOR over the OCA?

Thank you.

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« Reply #132 on: September 14, 2009, 04:17:44 AM »


Do you recognise the autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

No.

Quote
Why not?

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.

The autonomous Archbishop of Ohrid is the canonical primate of Macedonia.


Quote
Are you ignorant?

Maybe, but not here.

The Macedonian people recognize the Macedonian Orthodox Church and, by and large, don't recognize the Greek/Serbian-installed "Archbishop of Ohrid".  Does their opinion not count?  Or have we returned to the era of European monarchies and ttheir coexistence with a national church as a means of keeping the peasantry under control?
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« Reply #133 on: September 14, 2009, 04:34:26 AM »


Do you recognise the autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

No.

Quote
Why not?

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.

The autonomous Archbishop of Ohrid is the canonical primate of Macedonia.


Quote
Are you ignorant?

Maybe, but not here.

The Macedonian people recognize the Macedonian Orthodox Church and, by and large, don't recognize the Greek/Serbian-installed "Archbishop of Ohrid".  Does their opinion not count?  Or have we returned to the era of European monarchies and ttheir coexistence with a national church as a means of keeping the peasantry under control?

Though bishops may be elected, the episcopacy is not.

Sure, their opinion counts. It is just not determinative.

Btw, I'm a monarchist. I worship the King of the Jews, not their president.
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dirtyharry667
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« Reply #134 on: September 14, 2009, 05:16:03 AM »


Do you recognise the autocephaly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

No.

Quote
Why not?

I recognize Tomoi of Autocephaly from Orthodox Synods, not Tito.

The autonomous Archbishop of Ohrid is the canonical primate of Macedonia.


Quote
Are you ignorant?

Maybe, but not here.

The Macedonian people recognize the Macedonian Orthodox Church and, by and large, don't recognize the Greek/Serbian-installed "Archbishop of Ohrid".  Does their opinion not count?  Or have we returned to the era of European monarchies and ttheir coexistence with a national church as a means of keeping the peasantry under control?

Though bishops may be elected, the episcopacy is not.

Sure, their opinion counts. It is just not determinative.

Btw, I'm a monarchist. I worship the King of the Jews, not their president.

Are you then saying that the bureaucratic aspect of religion is more important than the spiritual and human dynamic?  Like I said, it is easy to understand why so many blacks in the United States are not comfortable in white parishes or even in a Christian Church.  That is why the Muslim religion works for them.  I think the same can be said with the Macedonian and Ukranian people.  Is not having people they are comfortable with (as opposed to a hierarchy they are suspicious of) ministering to them an important aspect of feeling connected to the church and to God.

And if I am Macedonian and I still remember what the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians all did to our people in their quest to take control of our land, would I have much connection to an institution under their administration?  And if I have no connection to such institution, does that not breed cynicism?  And if the cynicism festers long enough is that not destructive to the entire faith and really all of christianity?

My mother came to America as a teenager in the 1950's.  She said that rather than stay within Orthodoxy, most oif her peers of the time became Methodist.  I am guessing a large part of this was that they didn't have their own church intown during that era and they didn't feel particularly connected to the Greek church.

I have no evidence to back this up, just a gut feeling.

You guys are spending too much time on bureaucracy and process and ignoring what the people want. 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 05:17:52 AM by dirtyharry667 » Logged

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« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2009, 08:33:29 AM »

There are numerous cases/examples throughout Orthodox Church history when governments working with the local sobor/synod declared a church autonomous or autocephalous.  Not just Tito.


One example is the Church of Greece.  It was the government of the newly independent state of Greece that declared the church autocephalous from the EP.

Naturally, the EP still under the Ottomans Turks did not accept this at first.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 08:36:13 AM by Jake » Logged
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« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2009, 07:42:38 PM »

Perhaps I should find out!

Thats a good idea. Do a little research and you will find that no Orthodox Church recognises their autocephaly- including yours. Do you think this is simply "ignorance", or might there be something else? Don't assume that because some Churches do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA that this is due to "ignorance".

Agreed. The problem is not ignorance but nationalistic and ecclesiastic considerations of various churches.

Serbian Church: The Serbian Kingdom and then the state tried hard to Serbianize the Bulgarians of the current Republic of Macedonia. When it could not finish the job, Belgrade encouraged the creation of a fake Macedonian nation, culture, and language, and endorsed the establishment of the Church of Macedonia as an autonomous Church under its wing. However, the Macedonians went very far to the Serbs when they declared autocephaly: they cannot let that mouse get away.

Bulgarian Church: The Bulgarian Church could not relinquish its historical claim on the lands covered by the Bulgarian Exarchate of the late 19th Century. Also, recognizing the Macedonian Church would perpetuate the myth of a distinct Macedonian language. Just like their neighbors West and South, most Bulgarians would be extremely unhappy. Again, they cannot let that mouse get away.

The Church of Greece: the Greek Government and Church cannot bring themselves even now to acknowledge the existence of Bulgarians, let alone non-Greek Macedonians, in Aegean Macedonia. The recognition of the Church of Macedonia would be viewed by many Greeks (all over the world) as something close to blasphemy: they cannot let that mouse get away, even if the mouse did not officially exist.

The Patriarchate of Constantinople: In addition to the problems that an autocephalous Macedonian Church would pose to the Church of Greece, the EP has for centuries claimed the right to "confer" autocephaly. It cannot change its long-standing policy, especially in the age of its novel interpretation of Canon 28: it cannot let any mouse get away.

The rest of the Churches are either closely related to the ones I cited or cannot bother to concern themselves with such a small nation and church. Bottom line: I am sympathetic to the Macedonian claims to an autocephalous church, language and culture. I don't agree with them, but they have the right to decide for themselves, just as the Bulgarians, Russians, and even the Greeks did.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 07:46:23 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2009, 08:25:15 PM »


Serbian Church: The Serbian Kingdom and then the state tried hard to Serbianize the Bulgarians of the current Republic of Macedonia. When it could not finish the job, Belgrade encouraged the creation of a fake Macedonian nation, culture, and language, and endorsed the establishment of the Church of Macedonia as an autonomous Church under its wing. However, the Macedonians went very far to the Serbs when they declared autocephaly: they cannot let that mouse get away.

Bulgarian Church: The Bulgarian Church could not relinquish its historical claim on the lands covered by the Bulgarian Exarchate of the late 19th Century. Also, recognizing the Macedonian Church would perpetuate the myth of a distinct Macedonian language. Just like their neighbors West and South, most Bulgarians would be extremely unhappy. Again, they cannot let that mouse get away.


Four issues with what you are saying:

1.  The existence of the Macedonian people.  I don't want to get too far off the topic of religion here, so forgive me in advance if I go off on a tangent.  That said, there are documents that have been uncovered in various libraries referring to the existence of a Macedonian people that I've seen dating to 1400 or so.  Furthermore hi "Ignea" released a DNA study in 2008 and came up with something of a typical genetic profile for a Macedonian with the following DNA results:

30%macedonian
10% illyrian
15% hellenen
5%phoenician
20% germanic
5% hunnen
15% slavic

The irony, of course, is that Greeks have more Slavic DNA (I believe it was 20%) and less Macedonian DNA (5%; 18% in the North).  If this is accurate, that makes a good case for the existence of a Macedonian people. 

2.  Creation of the Macedonian Nation:  Nobody can encourage creation of anything without popular support.  I will not argue that the Serbians engaged in anti-Bulgarian propaganda, however, if the Macedonian people didn't naturally feel that way I doubt that a "fake" nation could be created.

3.  Existence of a Distinct Language:  Here is a video of the 100th anniversary celebration of the first Bulgarian parish in America (largely started by people who would call themselves Macedonians today):

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5rPJrxHTE

There is a banquet video where the bishop gives a speech.  To my first-generation ears, he is basically just as unintelligible as a Serb is.  I can, however, easily understand the dialect in Greek Macedonia.

4.  I have no problem with being called Bulgarians as that is how you were identified in Ottoman times--based on your ecclesiastical jurisdiction encompassing many different tribes.  However one should realize that Europ is far from homogeneous-.  Bulgarian could mean either Bulgarian ethnicity or Bulgarian nationality.  If you dig deeper in tthe people calling themselves Greeks, they were Patriarchists who were of various backgrounds with Vlachs being among the largest groups.  It was a surprise to me when i first learned all this, as I thought if you said "Italian", for instance, it meant something, but it really doesn't.  European countries are heterogeneous not unlike America.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 08:31:49 PM by dirtyharry667 » Logged

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