Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon  (Read 22570 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,622
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« on: April 20, 2009, 11:42:13 AM »
http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX.

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,722
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 11:58:21 AM »
The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 12:03:27 PM »
The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,722
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 12:39:15 PM »
The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  :)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 12:39:28 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,664
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 12:42:27 PM »
Glory to God!

Offline Tamara

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,209
  • +Pray for Orthodox Unity+
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 04:14:50 PM »
He is a true leader for Orthodox Christians in North America!

Mustahek!

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,083
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 05:26:30 PM »
The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  :)

? could you please translate what you wrote, some of us have no clue what it says.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 05:26:55 PM by username! »

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 05:32:52 PM »
The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  :)
? could you please translate what you wrote, some of us have no clue what it says.
Ughh...
Christ is Risen!
Indeed he is Risen!
Joseph

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 06:20:59 PM »
http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX.

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."

Many Years to his Beatitude.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline StGeorge

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 714
  • St. George
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 08:19:08 PM »
http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX.

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."


I am glad to hear this from Metropolitan Jonah.  His call for working together is definitely a good plan!  :)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 09:56:42 PM »
The humility of HB Metropolitan Jonah is exemplary.  Axios!
Bi-'khristos af-ton'f!

Yes, Axios!

Khen omethmi aftonf  :)

? could you please translate what you wrote, some of us have no clue what it says.
Christ is Risen!  Indeed He is Risen!

Arimethea has already done so (thanks), but I'll add that it is Coptic, mankind's oldest and longest continously used language.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline shep4569

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • St. Mary Magdalene Orthodox Church
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 12:04:01 AM »
Glory to God for giving us HB Jonah!
In Christ,
Logan

"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." - Job 1:21

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,063
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 12:38:30 AM »
God forgives!  Many years to his Beatitude!

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,622
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 12:48:28 AM »
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 12:55:58 AM »
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

God.
God is Love, and Love is a bomb which destroys and scatters all enmity and other works of the devil.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 07:16:13 AM »
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 07:16:43 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 07:51:20 AM »
Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,622
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 08:05:38 AM »
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

That's why I said I wonder what made him change his mind.  I think several of the other churches' hierarchs and maybe patriarchs said something to him about his statements.  He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.  The CS is a priest...so there is a little more leeway there.  Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 08:09:02 AM »
Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.

This has nothing to do with politics (may be His Global Holiness is projecting?). It has to do with what kind of leader you are: it is perfectly fine for a servant-leader to apologize for having offended somebody while maintaining a substantive position. FYI, Metropolitan Jonah has been criticized elsewhere because this statement was construed by some as backing down in his position against the machinations (a more polite word for politics?) of Phanar. Regardless of our esteemed Global Moderator's conclusion to the contrary, Metropolitan Jonah's statement did not retract any of his substantive arguments against Constantinople's unilateral innovations in Orthodox ecclesiology.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 08:15:25 AM »
Regardless of our esteemed Global Moderator's conclusion to the contrary, Metropolitan Jonah's statement did not retract any of his substantive arguments against Constantinople's unilateral innovations in Orthodox ecclesiology.
Plani. I believe you call it Prelest.
Lets look at His Beatitudes words:
Quote

"I greet you in a spirit of repentance and forgiveness as we celebrate the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Certain comments that were made in the course of my sermon have provoked a reaction from my Orthodox brothers that I did not intend or foresee. I regret making those comments. In particular, I realize that some characterizations regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople were insensitive. As the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, I am motivated only by the desire to underscore our fervent hope that future discussion about the so-called Orthodox Diaspora will include the Orthodox Church in America and other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America. It is also my purpose to affirm our Church in the face of those who would question our presence as a local Orthodox Church in North America.

"It is now clear that I made statements that were uncharitable. I do apologize to His All-Holiness as well as to others who were offended. I also hope that through personal contact and acquaintance we might be able to overcome any misunderstandings that might arise or have clouded the relationship between our Churches in the past. My hope is that we might cooperate in an attitude of mutual support in our common mission, to spread the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the spirit of this Great and Holy Friday, I sincerely pray that as we contemplate Our Lord, Who ascended the Cross to 'bring all men to Himself,' we will see in His patience and long-suffering the way to continue our work together for the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in the world and for Orthodox unity in North America."

I just wish some of the posters on here would follow his example and admit they are uncharitable.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 08:17:55 AM »
He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly. 
He's learning that the Church is one. Give hime time.

Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 
Probably not, but they're learning too.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Veniamin

  • Fire for Effect!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,372
  • St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 08:22:20 AM »
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

That's why I said I wonder what made him change his mind.  I think several of the other churches' hierarchs and maybe patriarchs said something to him about his statements.  He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.  The CS is a priest...so there is a little more leeway there.  Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 08:29:39 AM »
^I think what serb1389 is saying is that if a Priest had said it on his own authority it wouldn't have mattered and it would be an internal affair in the OCA.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 08:31:06 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline cholmes

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 10:03:30 AM »
http://www.oca.org/news/1822

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- On Great, Holy and Good Friday, April 17, 2009, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, issued the following statement in response to recent commentary on his April 5, 2009 sermon, delivered at Saint Seraphim Cathedral, Dallas, TX....


AXIOS!

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,622
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 11:21:07 AM »
^I think what serb1389 is saying is that if a Priest had said it on his own authority it wouldn't have mattered and it would be an internal affair in the OCA.

Yah that's basically what i'm saying.
I'm wondering what made him change his mind....to be honest...

Christ is Risen!

He didn't change his mind, just mended his speech.

Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

That's why I said I wonder what made him change his mind.  I think several of the other churches' hierarchs and maybe patriarchs said something to him about his statements.  He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.  The CS is a priest...so there is a little more leeway there.  Plus I'm not sure if any of the OCA hierarchs were particularly offended by it AND made it known to him. 

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

I think OzGeorge got it right. 

But for the sake of the argument, what would you say if I DID feel like it's more important who said it than what is said? 
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 12:26:22 PM »
Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.

Christ is Risen!

My, I'm looking at the bar across just above the "Post Reply" box, and it doesn't say "Politics," just "General Forums."

If it were politics, then this would have to be moved, now wouldn't it?  Isn't posting politics in the "General Forums" against the rules? Or was it intended as a slur?

Politics.  Isn't that how New Rome became, well, New Rome?  Became Autocephalous?  Got second place?

Isn't Ultramontanism how it got first place, by default?

He's the primate of a church, he can't just say stuff like that and think it's gona fly.
He's learning that the Church is one. Give hime time.
Yes, just like his all holiness is learning that the American Church is Autocephalous, and that Met. Jonah is the primate of said Church.  Give him time.

So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

Basically, surrogates are a perfectly fine channel of established Byzantine usage.  That's how we got the term "Byzantine."
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 12:35:53 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Veniamin

  • Fire for Effect!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,372
  • St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 01:52:34 PM »
But for the sake of the argument, what would you say if I DID feel like it's more important who said it than what is said? 

Well, given the assertions that Metropolitan Jonah's statement was slanderous, disingenuous, offensive, and whatnot, one would think that the statement itself is the issue and would be equally slanderous, disingenuous, offensive, and whatnot regardless of who makes it.  Granted, the statement may garner more attention from a Metropolitan than a parish priest, but the implication that the importance of who said something rather than what that something was implies that the issue is not the statement, but the individual and the statement is merely a pretext. 

It also doesn't help that it seems on OC.net, in order to be supportive of the OCA, one must necessarily also oppose the EP, and that to be supportive of the EP, one must necessarily also oppose the OCA. 
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline AMM

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,076
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 01:55:19 PM »
I'm starting my own jurisdiction called "OPA" to oppose them both.

Offline GreekChef

  • Prez
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 884
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 02:23:36 PM »
 

It also doesn't help that it seems on OC.net, in order to be supportive of the OCA, one must necessarily also oppose the EP, and that to be supportive of the EP, one must necessarily also oppose the OCA. 

It does indeed seem that way.  And it is unfortunate.  Personally, I don't care what anyone on OC.net says, I support both.  They are BOTH the Church.  It is terribly sad that these things have crept in and caused such terrible damage and disunion.

Axios to Met. +JONAH for his statement!
Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5

Offline shep4569

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • St. Mary Magdalene Orthodox Church
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 05:22:56 PM »
So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

I do think it makes a difference who the person is that makes the statements. Since I first learned of this canonical issue, I've felt that the EP's position is undermining the OCA's mission and the mission of Orthodoxy, of Christianity, in general. However, I personally don't have the national/global audience or stature that our bishops do to express such concerns.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 05:24:14 PM by shep4569 »
In Christ,
Logan

"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." - Job 1:21

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 05:40:49 PM »
However, I personally don't have the national/global audience or stature that our bishops do to express such concerns.

Thank God. 

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 06:16:26 PM »
So, in other words, if Metropolitan Jonah had just written the speech out and told a priest to go give it, it would all be perfectly fine?  You seem to be saying that it's not what's said that matters, it's who delivers it.

I do think it makes a difference who the person is that makes the statements. Since I first learned of this canonical issue, I've felt that the EP's position is undermining the OCA's mission and the mission of Orthodoxy, of Christianity, in general. However, I personally don't have the national/global audience or stature that our bishops do to express such concerns.

Excellent observation. However, you do have this wonderful forum and I hope to read more of your posts.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 06:35:54 PM »
Ozgeorge said "Plani. I believe you call it Prelest." IRT Second Chance who had said "Regardless of our esteemed Global Moderator's conclusion to the contrary, Metropolitan Jonah's statement did not retract any of his substantive arguments against Constantinople's unilateral innovations in Orthodox ecclesiology."

Second Chance now replies:

I honestly did not know the meaning of either word. So, I looked it up. Wiki says that the word plani/prelest means spiritual delusion. I really hope that this is not what OzGeorge meant because it puts his final words in an entirely different light (when he said "I just wish some of the posters on here would follow his example and admit they are uncharitable.") So, who is the uncharitable one here?

Presvytera Mari just made an on point posting that essentially rues the "us vs. them" mentality that has arisen on this forum. I agree with her and I admit that I have not always made my points with care to not exacerbate the situation. I do apologize to everyone.


Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2009, 03:26:30 AM »
Christ is Risen!
Will the Chief Secretary follow his fine example?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....Americans and their politics in the guise of religion.

Must be an American:
Finnish Priest is to candidate to the European Parlament
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 03:26:59 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline iustinos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
  • OC.net
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2009, 05:51:24 PM »
Christ is Risen!

The next page in the Saga:  A letter from Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco issued today.

"April 22, 2009
+Bright Wednesday

                                                           

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you,

and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake.

Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward

in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

(Matthew 5:11-12)

 

Dearly Beloved in the Lord,

 

Christos Anesti!

 

The Church of Constantinople, tracing her apostolic roots back to St. Andrew the First Called of the Apostles, continues to preserve the integrity and sanctity of our Christian Orthodox Church.  The apostolicity of the Throne of Constantinople is further acknowledged by the historical fact that the Apostle and Evangelist John preached in Asia Minor.

 

For over 2000 years, faithful Orthodox Christians have kept the Church in Constantinople alive.  This is especially true of the last 556 years, since the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans.  Each day the faithful of the Ecumenical Throne, both clergy and laity, live their lives witnessing to our precious Faith in a Muslim world.  Their world is one of sacrifice and persecution that comes from outside the Church.

 

Recently, we have been saddened by a homily given by Metropolitan Jonah of the Orthodox Church in America (formerly known as the Russian Metropolia).  In his speech, Metropolitan Jonah attacks the Ecumenical Patriarchate and, in reality, all the ancient Patriarchates, calling them “Old World.”  The Metropolitan ignores the canonical and ecclesiological understanding of that which is recognized in the diptychs of all canonical Orthodox Churches, namely, that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the first to be commemorated.  Whether Metropolitan Jonah realized it or not, his words were an attack on the apostolic succession, which is derived through the ancient Patriarchates.

 

The 28th canon of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, which convened in Chalcedon, not only affirmed, but completed that which had been understood by the Second Ecumenical Council, namely, that the Ecumenical Throne was granted “equal privileges as those of the Church of Rome.” To this day, for example, only the Ecumenical Patriarchate possesses the ecclesiastical authority to act judicially in the appeal process regarding clergy outside its jurisdiction (Canons 9 and 17).

 

Moreover, the spiritual authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch is not “papal” in its expression, spiritually or administratively.  To say so is an argument without understanding of Christian Orthodox ecclesiology.  One must remember that the Ecumenical Throne has jurisdiction over the Church in many countries throughout the world. Along with the land of modern-day Turkey, the Patriarch of Constantinople oversees the work of the Holy Gospel in Northern Greece, Mt. Athos, the Islands of the Dodecanese, Crete, Australia, Great Britain, Western Europe, Southeast Asia, Albania, Carpatho-Russia, and the Western Hemisphere (especially among the Greek Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches).  There may be contention from other jurisdictions challenging the responsibilities of the Ecumenical Throne—although these responsibilities are supported in Canon Law—but it supports the same pretext of the Turkish government.

 

Metropolitan Jonah, despite a weak attempt to reinterpret his statements, has shown us that the Ecumenical Patriarchate must now concern itself not only with attacks by those outside the Church, but also from within the Church, as well.  It seems that the Metropolitan has ignored the fact that today’s world is moving towards globalization in every aspect of life, as evident in our ability to communicate with one another instantly.

 

I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople.

 

I beseech all God-loving Orthodox Christians to realize that we are all the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  This unity is expressed by the truth that we all partake of the precious Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.  As a Eucharistic community, we offer the prayer of the Holy Anaphora during the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, “…unite us all to one another who become partakers of the one Bread and the Cup in the communion of the one Holy Spirit.  Grant that none of us may partake of the holy Body and Blood of your Christ to judgment or condemnation, but that we may find mercy and grace with all the saints, who through the ages have pleased You: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, teachers, and every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.”

 

With Love in the Risen Lord,

 

+Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco"


I must confess that while I have great love for Met. Gerasimos as a member of his flock, I find this letter just as hyperbolic as so many claim Met. Jonah's statement was.  To say that Met. Jonah has made an attack on Apostolic Succession itself is baseless--if so, he has accused Met. Jonah of heresy and a certain degree of self-loathing.  To say that Apostolic succession comes through the ancient patriarchates is also incomplete---there are many other sees in the world of Apostolic origin, and the history linking Constantinople to St. Andrew is disputed.  No where and at no time has Met. Jonah denied the primacy afforded the Patriarch of Constantinople.  And to take issue with calling the ancient patriarchates "Old World" may show a lack of understanding of American convention----here in America, we do in fact call Europe and the Near East "Old World."

I sincerely hope that His Eminence issued this letter without the benefit of having been aware of His Beatitude's apology.  Otherwise, this did nothing to help the unity he prays for.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2009, 05:59:13 PM »
the Patriarch of Constantinople oversees the work of the Holy Gospel in Northern Greece, Mt. Athos, the Islands of the Dodecanese, Crete, Australia, Great Britain, Western Europe, Southeast Asia, Albania, Carpatho-Russia, and the Western Hemisphere
I don't know about something?

Quote
I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople.
Quote
I sincerely hope that His Eminence issued this letter without the benefit of having been aware of His Beatitude's apology.  Otherwise, this did nothing to help the unity he prays for.

I think the same iustinos
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 05:59:52 PM by mike »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2009, 07:04:37 PM »

Metropolitan Gerasimos said : "Metropolitan Jonah, despite a weak attempt to reinterpret his statements, has shown us that the Ecumenical Patriarchate must now concern itself not only with attacks by those outside the Church, but also from within the Church, as well...I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople..."

I think that this clearly shows that Metropolitan Gerasimos (if not his fellow GOA bishops) has not accepted Metropolitan Jonah's Holy Friday apology. I had not expected the GOA to say all is now fine, Metropolitan Jonah has retracted his position (as Ozgeorge has implied). I did not, however, expect this dispute to escalate with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Diocesan Bishop not only rebutting the primate of the Orthodox Church in America (like or not a church that has been given its autocephaly by her mother church in accordance with the Holy Tradition) but turning up the heat.

I do not know what the Metropolitan tried to accuse +Jonah of heresy by saying "Whether Metropolitan Jonah realized it or not, his words were an attack on the apostolic succession, which is derived through the ancient Patriarchates."

I don't know if the Metropolitan tried equate +Jonah to Turks by saying "There may be contention from other jurisdictions challenging the responsibilities of the Ecumenical Throne—although these responsibilities are supported in Canon Law—but it supports the same pretext of the Turkish government."

I do know that the Metropolitan (and absent a repudiation by his fellow GOA bishops) the GOA have unfortunately squandered a precious opportunity to foster unity and progress engendered by +Jonah's apology. I am sad and dejected for not being surprised.


Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,069
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2009, 07:18:05 PM »

Metropolitan Gerasimos said : "Metropolitan Jonah, despite a weak attempt to reinterpret his statements, has shown us that the Ecumenical Patriarchate must now concern itself not only with attacks by those outside the Church, but also from within the Church, as well...I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople..."

I think that this clearly shows that Metropolitan Gerasimos (if not his fellow GOA bishops) has not accepted Metropolitan Jonah's Holy Friday apology. I had not expected the GOA to say all is now fine, Metropolitan Jonah has retracted his position (as Ozgeorge has implied). I did not, however, expect this dispute to escalate with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Diocesan Bishop not only rebutting the primate of the Orthodox Church in America (like or not a church that has been given its autocephaly by her mother church in accordance with the Holy Tradition) but turning up the heat.

I do not know what the Metropolitan tried to accuse +Jonah of heresy by saying "Whether Metropolitan Jonah realized it or not, his words were an attack on the apostolic succession, which is derived through the ancient Patriarchates."

I don't know if the Metropolitan tried equate +Jonah to Turks by saying "There may be contention from other jurisdictions challenging the responsibilities of the Ecumenical Throne—although these responsibilities are supported in Canon Law—but it supports the same pretext of the Turkish government."

I do know that the Metropolitan (and absent a repudiation by his fellow GOA bishops) the GOA have unfortunately squandered a precious opportunity to foster unity and progress engendered by +Jonah's apology. I am sad and dejected for not being surprised.


Personally, I'm more willing to extend Metropolitan Gerasimos the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he knew nothing of Metropolitan Jonah's recent apology.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2009, 07:21:12 PM »
While I agree it is sad that Metr. Gerasimos is upping the ante, Metr. Jonah's comments did have a toothpaste out of the tube nature to them.  Despite his retraction, their impact is unlikely to dwindle any time soon.  I think the point that was initially intended is that no solution to the North American jurisdictional quagmire can come about unless the OCA is at the table is quite valid.  It is unfortunate that this is being lost and instead being turned into a cradle vs. convert mudslinging fest.    

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »

Personally, I'm more willing to extend Metropolitan Gerasimos the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he knew nothing of Metropolitan Jonah's recent apology.

Metropolitan Gerasimos is an accomplished person, having held high administrative positions in the GOA (including Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod--somewhat of an echo?), holder of a Doctorate in Counseling, and professor at Northwestern University, in addition to being the bishop of a nice sized diocese. I would be surprised if he did not know a thing of Metropolitan Jonah's apology. I would also be surprised if he escalated the argument without coordinating his action with somebody. Nice sentiments, though.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2009, 07:56:11 PM »
While I agree it is sad that Metr. Gerasimos is upping the ante, Metr. Jonah's comments did have a toothpaste out of the tube nature to them.  Despite his retraction, their impact is unlikely to dwindle any time soon.  I think the point that was initially intended is that no solution to the North American jurisdictional quagmire can come about unless the OCA is at the table is quite valid.  It is unfortunate that this is being lost and instead being turned into a cradle vs. convert mudslinging fest.    

I honestly don't think that this is a convert vs. cradle issue, at least in the United States. It really is a huge ecclesiological disagreement, to say the least, between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and American Orthodox folks--cradle, convert, Greek or not, all kinds of people who have a different vision for the Church in the United States and hopefully the rest of North America (if our Canadian and Mexican brethren concur).

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Global Moderator
  • Merarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,622
  • Michał Kalina's biggest fan
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2009, 09:25:04 PM »
Just thought i'd post a link for the letter of Met. Gerasimos:  http://www.palamas.info/2009/04/metropolis-of-san-francisco-letter-from.html
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,289
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2009, 09:31:23 PM »
Christ is Risen! (Sorry, the Polish escapes at the moment)

the Patriarch of Constantinople oversees the work of the Holy Gospel in Northern Greece, Mt. Athos, the Islands of the Dodecanese, Crete, Australia, Great Britain, Western Europe, Southeast Asia, Albania, Carpatho-Russia, and the Western Hemisphere
I don't know about something?

I think what you mean (at least in American Engish) is "Is there something I don't know about?"



Which is my question too, as Albania and Carpatho-Russia fall in the territory of other Churches that the EP recognize as autocephalous.  Albania is particularly a bad example for the Metropolitan, as the Albanian Church actually began in Boston under the auspices of the OCA/Metropolia/Russian Archdiocese, and Archb. Anastasios, himself a Greek and not an Albanian, was almost expelled as a foreignor.  Only the uproar of the locals prevented that, because although he still (I believe) does not speak Albanian, he is a wonderful pastor and NOT a phanariot.  The EP and the CoG does give a lot of support to the Church of Albanian, though.

Quote
I appeal to Metropolitan Jonah to reconsider his position, especially during this holy season, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection, and come forth with a sincere apology to our Mother Church of Constantinople.
Quote
I sincerely hope that His Eminence issued this letter without the benefit of having been aware of His Beatitude's apology.  Otherwise, this did nothing to help the unity he prays for.

Quote
I think the same iustinos

That makes at least three of us.

[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 09:32:04 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline iustinos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 57
  • OC.net
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2009, 10:20:13 PM »
I have to admit that the more times I re-read Met. Gerasimos's letter, the more frustrated I become.  Some parts of it, such as the reference to the Turkish Government, are simply incomprehensible or, as in the reference to Canons 9 & 17, are inapposite.  Likewise, as pointed out above, the reference to Albania and "Carpatho-Russia" (I wasn't aware that is a canonically-defined area) is just not true.  I suspect he means the dioceses here in the U.S., but that's not what he says--leading me to think he didn't stop and read this very carefully before sending.  Maybe a similar problem to Met. Jonah's self-described "insensitive" and "uncharitable" remarks.

And I'm still stuck on the accusation that Met. Jonah has attacked Apostolic Succession itself.  This is a very serious charge.  It is nothing less than an accusation of heresy.

I'm disappointed.

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2009, 11:35:57 PM »
Personally, I'm more willing to extend Metropolitan Gerasimos the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he knew nothing of Metropolitan Jonah's recent apology.

Metropolitan Gerasimos is an accomplished person, having held high administrative positions in the GOA (including Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod--somewhat of an echo?), holder of a Doctorate in Counseling, and professor at Northwestern University, in addition to being the bishop of a nice sized diocese.

True.

I would be surprised if he did not know a thing of Metropolitan Jonah's apology.

You've obviously not traveled or served with a bishop during Holy Week.  I have (both counts), and in the focus of the season they're frequently unable to keep up with articles, news reports, etc. during that time.  Lots of hours traveling, serving, hearing confessions, etc.  I would be incredibly surprised if he actually did hear about the retraction, considering how busy he is.  (Heck, I was very surprised that Met. +Jonah had the time to think, write, and post the statement he did...)

I would also be surprised if he escalated the argument without coordinating his action with somebody.

Uh, you don't know His Eminence, then. He doesn't need encouragement, direction or anyone else's opinion.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.