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Author Topic: Chaplet of the Divine Mercy  (Read 17620 times) Average Rating: 0
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Douglas
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« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2009, 12:19:49 AM »

Essentially my spiritual father confirmed what I had posted some hours earlier. Here are his words to me:

"There doesn't seem to be anything majorly wrong theologically (except for the atonement thing). I think the main problem is with the origins in some questionable visions, and the fact that the whole "Divine Mercy" business is used by the RC church as a means to a one-church world.
 
It seems to me that the desire to use this chaplet arises from a dissatisfaction with Orthodox spiritual life and "itching ears" looking for new and different things. Why do we need to go searching in other denominations when we have plenty of authentic spiritual practices in our own. I'm sure there's nothing "theologically" wrong with Tibetan prayer wheels (as long as an Orthodox text would be in them), but that doesn't mean they should be used. The problem is that these practices, while they may be theologically OK, grow up in an atmosphere that is not and carry baggage with them that lie outside the actual words or practices.
 
Perhaps someone could use this chaplet to their advantage, but there is no reason why an Orthodox person should even think that Orthodox should be using it. That would be absurd.

We have a seven course banquet of spiritual practices--why would we want to give that up for this?"

-----

I have to re-iterate that our Orthodox devotions are enough for me and for most Orthodox Christians. I leave the Catholic devotions to the Catholics and let the Lord judge. It's simply of no interest to me. I'm Orthodox.
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« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2009, 12:20:30 AM »

Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.
Why would we want to?
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« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2009, 01:08:32 AM »

Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.
Why would we want to?

Well, I was just answering a question about the devotion. Apparently some of you DO want to, which is why this thread exists.

I can understand you. I don't do any distinctively Orthodox devotions either---well, save the Jesus Prayer.
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« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2009, 01:14:09 AM »

Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.
Why would we want to?

Well, I was just answering a question about the devotion. Apparently some of you DO want to, which is why this thread exists.

I can understand you. I don't do any distinctively Orthodox devotions either---well, save the Jesus Prayer.
You know, the thought just came to me that this thread is STILL in the Convert Issues section, which should guide how we read and discuss this subject.  So far, I think we've been much more lenient in permitting Orthodox-Catholic dialogue on this thread than maybe we should have.  So, until Thomas has a chance to review this thread and decide whether he wants to keep it in Convert Issues, I suggest that our Catholic posters offer us the courtesy of backing off so as to allow us to discuss the Chaplet of Divine Mercy from the point of view of Orthodox speaking to a potential convert to Orthodoxy.
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2009, 06:45:41 AM »

I like it , but i sense there is something fishy in the middle of it
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« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2009, 06:56:08 AM »

Didn't this new Revelation the Divine Mercy,that catholics have a devotion too ,surplant pascha the feast of feasts as the greater mercy.by observing the first 5 or 9 Fridays for 5 or 9 months after  pascha,,isn't indulgences involved  as well in this devotion also the sacred hearts ..

Im mind boggled by this !why would the catholic church chase after spurious new revelation given by talking Apparitions and shelf what was handed down to us by Christ and The Holy Spirit to the Holy apostles they to the Holy Fathers to the church....

Its another Gospel these apparitions are preaching, unknown to the Holy Fathers Faith once and for all delivered..
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« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2009, 07:35:22 AM »

Didn't this new Revelation the Divine Mercy,that catholics have a devotion too ,surplant pascha the feast of feasts as the greater mercy....

It does seem that the Feast of the Divine Mercy has a greater significance than the Feast of the Resurrection and offers more mercy to sinners.

Here are the words which the Saviour is supposed to have said to Faustina:

"On one occasion, I heard these words: My daughter, tell the whole world about My Inconceivable mercy. I desire that the Feast of Mercy be a refuge and shelter for all souls, and especially for poor sinners. On that day the very depths of My tender mercy are open. I pour out a whole ocean of graces upon those souls who approach the fount of My mercy. The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.  On that day all the divine floodgates through which grace flow are opened. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy. Every soul in its relation to Me will I contemplate My love and mercy throughout eternity. The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy."

Source :: http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/feast.htm

There may well be a danger that in popular devotion the Feast of Divine Mercy could be seen as more powerful than the Resurrection.  Confession and Communion on the Sunday after Easter are more "powerful" and efficacious than Communion on Easter day itself.

Orthodox ought to steer clear of it for this reason, if for no other.
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2009, 08:31:13 AM »

You are right the purpose of this feast is to distract people from the true Divine Mercy wich is our Passover , trough grace , God`s gift .The Divine Mercy is God`s great gift to us , Jesus Christ , The Way , the Salvation wich comes from grace so that no one elate , trought God great mercy and love . He already gave Himself as sacrifice once for all , in him is accomplish all law , there is no need for another sacrifice . Cause He is without sin , and the High Priest , the Lamb of God , wich enter somewere beyond the saint of Saint and it is there forever in the heavens . This thing is to minimize the offering of Jesus and to elate and promote sins because trought "this ceremony" people "benefit" of a "special grace" . To say that the offering of Jesus was not perfect and to minimize the role of Jesus Christ , and that His sacrifice was not enough to wash the sins of all world , that is why He needs to be slaughtered again and again . Everyone who drinks the blood of the Lamb and eats the flesh of the Lamb stays in God and God in Him . Jesus said : Father desires worshipers in true and spirit . "I desire mercy and not born sacrifice" ; also it is written in the psalms and hebrews that the biggest sacrifice for our atonement is Jesus Christ once for all , and it says burn offering and sacrifice you did not desire , then I said : Here I am . In the head of the scroll is written about me . God wants mercy more than burnt offerings , and the knowing of God before sacrifice . To love God and our neighbours with all our heart . What you want people to do to you do them yourself . And this is the eternal life that they know you the one and only God , and Jesus God wich you has sent . Who doesn`t love does not know God for God is Love . Who doesn`t love his brother wich he can see , how can he love God wich he can`t see . This is from John and 1John , reproduced with my words .
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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2009, 09:11:12 AM »

We all need to fallow Christ by eating His flesh and drinking His blood . The offering is given once , His Body is given and His body is the true meal and His blood the true drink . We need to eat from the sacrifice of the Lamb , to take our cross and fallow Him(cause the sins are not washed untill we eat from him) and all who belong to Jesus Christ have killed their flesh with Him on the cross and therefore becomes themselves sacrifice to God, they offer themselves to God ,by denying themselves , they become as the lamb if they fallow the Lamb . So Jesus does not need to be sacrifice and given to God more than once , but we need to give ourselves to Jesus , to become a member of the Body wich is His flesh , to be a member of the Lamb  . When it comes what is perfect what is in part will cease .The sacrifice of Jesus is for atonement of all humanity and for the washing of all sins in eternity , we just need to fallow Him and to become a part of Him ,and to eat and drink from Him. And we will remain in Him , and as Him resurrected , we will resurrect and we will inherit the kingdom of heaven . I think this confusion is due to "security of Salvation" and that needs to be made clear .
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« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 09:24:39 AM »

...It's a non-issue.

In addition to Thomas' excellent response No.: 2 above, here are my brief additions, given as a shallow attempt to hash PFN's anger against Orthodox, 'cause he simply disregarded the answers he didn't like.

-words of the prayer do have underlying Anselmian view (emphasize on passion, and the sacrifice offered to the Father) which is explicitly refused by St. Gregory of Nyssa some centuries before Anselm, is refused by Orthodoxy (and I may add is pretty odious to me)

-we don't recite any other Creed but Nicea-Constantinoplean one, particularly not the Creed named after the Apostoles and invented some centuries after them...
First off, I am not angry with anyone here. The only reason that I put on the harsh tone was to get someone, anyone, to answer me. Which, in my experience here, is the only way it seems to work. The answers that I seemed to disregard have nothing at all to do with the words of the Chaplet itself, and yet again, in the previous posts others are re-hashing the Faustina, visions, etc. problems. I am well aware of these problems. I just want to consider the words. I am very thankful that you have given some food-for-thought concerning the words of this chaplet. I would have to say, though, that the chaplet does not have to be interpreted with the Anselmian mindset. You have spoken of St. Gregory of Nyssa. Do you have any quotations that would be helpful to me, and others, regarding this chaplet? I would very much like to see them. It is just, to put it quite frankly, completely bizarre why no one will talk about this, though. I know that for many it is a "non-issue". But seriously, 3/4 of everything debated on this forum is a non-issue. Whether the Democrats are better than the Republicans, in the politics forum, or which Church has preserved the faith better, in the Eastern/Oriental forum. Or the myriad of other topics with Protestants, and Evangelicals. The list goes on.
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 11:29:01 AM »

I am completely astonished that any Orthodox christian would need to start saying Roman Catholic prayers, or even need to know about them! We have SO MANY of our own prayers that I for one do not manage to say or know them all, much less start on RC prayers! Shocked I would just avoid it and stick with our own. Any other course is a simply an unnecessary "temptation" as my Russian friends would say.
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 12:22:20 PM »

I am completely astonished that any Orthodox christian would need to start saying Roman Catholic prayers, or even need to know about them! We have SO MANY of our own prayers that I for one do not manage to say or know them all, much less start on RC prayers! Shocked I would just avoid it and stick with our own. Any other course is a simply an unnecessary "temptation" as my Russian friends would say.

Very well said, sister.
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Thomas
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« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2009, 12:48:42 PM »

The Chaplet of Divine Mercy is not an Eastern Orthodox practice, the teachings of Blessed Faustina of Poland are in keeping with Roman Catholic teachings of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and not a part of the Eastern Orthodox teachings or beliefs.  For further ideas on the relationship of this devotion to Orthodox devotions you should best contact a local Orthodox Priest or Seminary.  You may be able to get an e-mail response by an Orthodox Priest by contacting the OCA website at www.oca.org which has a specific question and answer series with an OCA priest and seminary teacher providing the answers you seek.

Thomas

I have already given my personal response on this issue, but it is obvious that the suggestions made were not followed, instead it has  gone from a Convert issue to that of a debate that rightfully belongs to the Orthodox-Roman Catholic discussion forum where I am sending it.

Thomas
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« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2009, 04:51:46 PM »

Very well said, sister.
Care to, perhaps, provide what Gregory of Nyssa had to say about this? I said above that it didn't have to have an Anselmian meaning, thoughts? I really would love to see the quotes from St. Gregory.
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« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2009, 06:03:45 PM »

Very well said, sister.
Care to, perhaps, provide what Gregory of Nyssa had to say about this? I said above that it didn't have to have an Anselmian meaning, thoughts? I really would love to see the quotes from St. Gregory.
You keep on insisting on your need to know what theological problems we Orthodox might see in the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.  Many of the Orthodox here respond with equal insistence that you just don't need to know.  I don't understand, then, why you keep on insisting that we answer your questions the way you want them answered. Huh

Personally, I find myself agreeing with the many who have already told you that Orthodoxy is so complete in its traditions of prayer that you just don't need to look to outside traditions for anything they might offer.  The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever, and if a Catholic wants to pray the prayer, we may encourage them to do so.  But you're not a Roman Catholic.  What spirituality can an RC practice offer you that Orthodoxy hasn't offered already?
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« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2009, 09:39:04 PM »

Essentially my spiritual father confirmed what I had posted some hours earlier. Here are his words to me:

"There doesn't seem to be anything majorly wrong theologically (except for the atonement thing). I think the main problem is with the origins in some questionable visions, and the fact that the whole "Divine Mercy" business is used by the RC church as a means to a one-church world.
 
It seems to me that the desire to use this chaplet arises from a dissatisfaction with Orthodox spiritual life and "itching ears" looking for new and different things. Why do we need to go searching in other denominations when we have plenty of authentic spiritual practices in our own. I'm sure there's nothing "theologically" wrong with Tibetan prayer wheels (as long as an Orthodox text would be in them), but that doesn't mean they should be used. The problem is that these practices, while they may be theologically OK, grow up in an atmosphere that is not and carry baggage with them that lie outside the actual words or practices.
 
Perhaps someone could use this chaplet to their advantage, but there is no reason why an Orthodox person should even think that Orthodox should be using it. That would be absurd.

We have a seven course banquet of spiritual practices--why would we want to give that up for this?"

-----

I have to re-iterate that our Orthodox devotions are enough for me and for most Orthodox Christians. I leave the Catholic devotions to the Catholics and let the Lord judge. It's simply of no interest to me. I'm Orthodox.


I would say this is the best answer thus far. The question isn't whether we can, but whether we should pray this prayer.
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« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2009, 09:53:56 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas, where on earth did you find that ikon for an avatar?  It cannot be from an Orthodox source...
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« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2009, 10:26:36 PM »

Didn't this new Revelation the Divine Mercy,that catholics have a devotion too ,surplant pascha the feast of feasts as the greater mercy....

It does seem that the Feast of the Divine Mercy has a greater significance than the Feast of the Resurrection and offers more mercy to sinners.

Here are the words which the Saviour is supposed to have said to Faustina:

"On one occasion, I heard these words: My daughter, tell the whole world about My Inconceivable mercy. I desire that the Feast of Mercy be a refuge and shelter for all souls, and especially for poor sinners. On that day the very depths of My tender mercy are open. I pour out a whole ocean of graces upon those souls who approach the fount of My mercy. The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.  On that day all the divine floodgates through which grace flow are opened. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy. Every soul in its relation to Me will I contemplate My love and mercy throughout eternity. The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy."

Source :: http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/feast.htm

There may well be a danger that in popular devotion the Feast of Divine Mercy could be seen as more powerful than the Resurrection.  Confession and Communion on the Sunday after Easter are more "powerful" and efficacious than Communion on Easter day itself.

Orthodox ought to steer clear of it for this reason, if for no other.

Thank You! Father For Clarifying this.....Oche Blagoslovi....
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« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2009, 10:29:00 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas, where on earth did you find that ikon for an avatar?  It cannot be from an Orthodox source...

Why do you say that?
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« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2009, 11:34:44 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas, where on earth did you find that ikon for an avatar?  It cannot be from an Orthodox source...

It's one of the "lovely" creations from the well-known outfit called "Monastery Icons". This image is an "icon" of the Divine Mercy, as seen by St Faustina. It is not an image from Orthodox tradition. Care to enlighten us as to your choice of avatar, poorfoolnicholas?
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« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2009, 11:39:59 PM »

I looked it up and they have some good icons.  I like the one of Juan Diego.
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« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2009, 11:46:52 PM »

I looked it up and they have some good icons.  I like the one of Juan Diego.

Much of their work cannot be called iconography from an Orthodox perspective. Their "icons" also lack any spiritual warmth or sanctity, as all the images look like they've been created using Photoshop. Bland and sterile.
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« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2009, 12:46:45 AM »

It's one of the "lovely" creations from the well-known outfit called "Monastery Icons".

Is this not the monastery that incorporates not only Orthodox and Catholic monastic practices, but also Buddhist and Hindu practices as well?  Are they affiliated with any church specifically?
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« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2009, 01:01:35 AM »

Is this not the monastery that incorporates not only Orthodox and Catholic monastic practices, but also Buddhist and Hindu practices as well?  Are they affiliated with any church specifically?

Yup, that's the one. I don't think they're officially affiliated with any church, though they may claim they belong somewhere.
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« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2009, 02:46:31 AM »

I agree that that faux-Eastern "icon" of the Divine Mercy image is not very good.

Speaking of icons, I saw a lovely one at the (Latin Catholic) Church of Our Saviour in New York City last Sunday. The famous Fr. George Rutler, pastor of the parish (and admirer of the Christian East), saw a medieval Byzantine copy of the famous 6th-century Mount Sinai Christ Pantokrator at an exhibition in the Metropolitan Museum of Art five years ago. He commissioned a Chinese muralist (a convert who he baptized) to paint a gigantic copy of it in the apse of his church. I must say, it is quite striking!





Even the New York Times noticed: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/31/nyregion/thecity/31icon.html

The church is quite stunning for being only 50 years old. Worth a visit---and Fr. Rutler celebrates the Mass (both in the new and traidtional form) wonderfully.

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« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2009, 03:21:56 AM »

From what I can tell the church is beautiful, but I do wish there were more pictures and that this picture was larger!
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« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2009, 05:43:36 AM »

Some quotes which made me cringe!!! from the NYT article:

"There's $500 to $600 of gold on the halo itself," said Donal Murray, one of two artists who created the painting.

"I thought it was a nice, friendly face," he said.

For all the painting's grandeur, Father Rutler conceded that perhaps not everyone would love it. "You know how New Yorkers are," he said. Christ himself could come down, "and they'd say, 'What time's the next subway?'"
 

Quote 1: So what?? The financial outlay doesn't matter a fig as to whether an icon is a "true" icon. What is far more important is the prayer and fasting that went into its painting, and its adherence to iconographic and liturgical canon.

Quote 2: A "nice, friendly face"?? Oh, puh-leeze! We're talking about the Son of God here, the God and Man. An icon of Christ is not merely a sentimental painting of “our dear friend Jesus” but portrays Him in His divinity as well as in His humanity, His absolute demands on us as well as His infinite mercy.

Quote 3: An icon is not painted "to be loved". An icon is painted to express the revelation of God to humanity, to illustrate and proclaim the truths and doctrines of the Christian faith, to inspire awe and reverence to the subject portrayed in the icon (be it Christ, the Mother of God, or the saints and angels), and to inspire a prayerful disposition upon him or her who stands before the icon.
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« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2009, 07:49:40 AM »

Keep in mind that those quotes are filtered through the Times writer, who took tiny snippets of much longer interviews. In other words, the writer only included things that he considered interesting or important.

I know from the good Father's homilies that he is very well versed on the role of Christ as King and Judge.
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« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2009, 08:43:42 AM »

That is a beautiful church.
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« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2009, 09:10:05 AM »

That is a beautiful church.
AMM, I love how the information keeps changing on your profile. Its keeping us all on our feet. LOL
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« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2009, 09:10:18 AM »

The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever...
Thank you. I, like the original poster on this topic, just love the wording of the Chaplet. I don't think at all, that it trumps anything Orthodox, and I mean anything. Thanks to all, God Bless!
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« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »

It's really not a question of whether it "trumps" anything that is Orthodox. It's just that we Orthodox have the right faith and the right worship. There is nothing lacking in Orthodoxy. We don't need to go looking elsewhere for devotions to our Lord when we have the full banquet. That's why it's been a non-issue from the git-go.
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« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2009, 10:20:06 AM »

It's really not a question of whether it "trumps" anything that is Orthodox. It's just that we Orthodox have the right faith and the right worship. There is nothing lacking in Orthodoxy. We don't need to go looking elsewhere for devotions to our Lord when we have the full banquet. That's why it's been a non-issue from the git-go.
Broken record. Seriously.
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« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2009, 11:39:43 AM »

Orthodoxy is right worship... right belief: SERIOUSLY. And I'm not ashamed to repeat it and be likened to a broken record... seriously. Wink
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« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2009, 11:43:18 AM »

Orthodoxy is right worship... right belief: SERIOUSLY. And I'm not ashamed to repeat it and be likened to a broken record... seriously. Wink
Dude... seriously.  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2009, 11:54:57 AM »

It's really not a question of whether it "trumps" anything that is Orthodox. It's just that we Orthodox have the right faith and the right worship. There is nothing lacking in Orthodoxy. We don't need to go looking elsewhere for devotions to our Lord when we have the full banquet. That's why it's been a non-issue from the git-go.
Broken record. Seriously.

PoorfoolNicholas,
Are you a catholic Masquerading as a Orthodox Christian,Curious ,why seek or accept new revalation thru talking apparitions that are questionable..when we have the ancient faith once delivered ...
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2009, 11:56:53 AM »

PoorfoolNicholas,
Are you a catholic Masquerading as a Orthodox Christian,Curious ,why seek or accept new revalation thru talking apparitions that are questionable..when we have the ancient faith once delivered ...
You caught me....cue the James Bond Theme Song...... Cool
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« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2009, 11:57:53 AM »

Orthodoxy is right worship... right belief: SERIOUSLY. And I'm not ashamed to repeat it and be likened to a broken record... seriously. Wink
If it is such a non-issue for you, why are you sending the exact opposite message with you posts then?
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« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2009, 01:01:52 PM »

Being a non-issue does not translate into my not taking an interest in countering what I believe to be erroneous information being passed off as though it were perfectly acceptable for Orthodox believers. It means that for most Orthodox, practicing heterodox devotions is a non-issue simply because it is unnecessary. As my spiritual father said, whereas the issue of the atonement is questionable to Orthodox belief, our seeking after new and different devotional practices is not to be encouraged. Why not incorporate a Tibetan prayer wheel in your devotions but substitute the Jesus Prayer? Not good... nor is the avatar you are using. You were quite insistent that someone had to respond to you many posts back. No one was taking an interest simplyl because for most it is a non-issue (i.e. we don't adopt the devotional practices of the non-Orthodox because we don't need to when we have the complete faith once for all delivered to the Saints). But you kept hammering away and when it was pointed out that the theology while questionable was probably not all that far off Orthodox theology BUT that the notion of adopting this practice was both unnecessary and unthinkable (for most Orthodox Christians that I know at least) you refused to accept this defense.

Bottom line: do as you please since I suspect that's what you're going to do anyway. And this is my last post on the matter since it's belaboring the point. But be advised that very, very few Orthodox Christians will be adopting this devotion or any other Catholic (or heterodox devotion) for the reasons this "broken record" has given ad nauseum. Sorry to have offended you since it appears you're quite irritated by my defense of Orthodox praxis.
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« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2009, 03:13:50 PM »

Being a non-issue does not translate into my not taking an interest in countering what I believe to be erroneous information being passed off as though it were perfectly acceptable for Orthodox believers. It means that for most Orthodox, practicing heterodox devotions is a non-issue simply because it is unnecessary. As my spiritual father said, whereas the issue of the atonement is questionable to Orthodox belief, our seeking after new and different devotional practices is not to be encouraged. Why not incorporate a Tibetan prayer wheel in your devotions but substitute the Jesus Prayer? Not good... nor is the avatar you are using. You were quite insistent that someone had to respond to you many posts back. No one was taking an interest simplyl because for most it is a non-issue (i.e. we don't adopt the devotional practices of the non-Orthodox because we don't need to when we have the complete faith once for all delivered to the Saints). But you kept hammering away and when it was pointed out that the theology while questionable was probably not all that far off Orthodox theology BUT that the notion of adopting this practice was both unnecessary and unthinkable (for most Orthodox Christians that I know at least) you refused to accept this defense.

Bottom line: do as you please since I suspect that's what you're going to do anyway. And this is my last post on the matter since it's belaboring the point. But be advised that very, very few Orthodox Christians will be adopting this devotion or any other Catholic (or heterodox devotion) for the reasons this "broken record" has given ad nauseum. Sorry to have offended you since it appears you're quite irritated by my defense of Orthodox praxis.
I'm not irritated. You have just been clear from post one what you feel, and think. This is completely fine. I am just pointing out that you keep saying it over and over again. God Bless.
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« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2009, 07:25:16 PM »

As far as I can tell, there is nothing theologically incorrect about the actual words of that prayer you present.  After all, as someone has already mentioned, the eucharistic prayer the priest recites says, "we offer you your own of your own, in behalf of all and for all."  This implies that we, the Church, offer up.  However, based on what I know of Faustina, I would be careful in accepting any of the explanations regarding what the prayer actually accomplishes.  And really, as others have said, why use this devotion when we have so many wonderful ones within Orthodoxy?  Not to mention that our devotions are not only theologically correct in words, but in their origins, which many Catholic devotions cannot claim.  Personally, if you absolutely need a Western devotion, I would keep to the Rosary.  There is nothing wrong with the Rosary. 

God bless.

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« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2009, 11:52:43 PM »

Better yet, as a Mass-and-Office type of Catholic, I would recommend praying some of the Office! I can't think of a better or more ancient devotional practice...

A very good choice would be to get a copy of the Monastic Diurnal, which consists of the traditional Benedictine day hours (all except Matins).

You have two options for getting a copy:

Lancelot Andrews Press has an English-only version. I purchased a copy of this for a traditional Anglican friend of mine. The operator of the website is a very genial Western-rite Orthodox priest. Western-rite Orthodox commonly use this book (it is approved by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate).

http://www.andrewespress.com/md.html

The second option is purchasing a copy from the famous Farnborough Abbey, a traditional Benedictine Abbey in England in communion with Rome. This one has the advantage of being in English and Latin side-by-side. I pray from this one.

http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/press/dirunal.php
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« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2009, 12:03:49 AM »

I can't think of a better or more ancient devotional practice...

A very good choice would be to get a copy of

I'm afraid I'll have to decline as an Orthodox Christian. But I can certainly offer to you and any others a much better way of offering a devotion to our Lord and Savior. It is to pray the Canon of Repentance to our Lord Jesus Christ . This can be found here: http://www.orthodox.cn/liturgical/prayerbook/daily/canonrepentance_en.htm
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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2009, 12:21:40 AM »

I agree that that faux-Eastern "icon" of the Divine Mercy image is not very good.

Speaking of icons, I saw a lovely one at the (Latin Catholic) Church of Our Saviour in New York City last Sunday. The famous Fr. George Rutler, pastor of the parish (and admirer of the Christian East), saw a medieval Byzantine copy of the famous 6th-century Mount Sinai Christ Pantokrator at an exhibition in the Metropolitan Museum of Art five years ago. He commissioned a Chinese muralist (a convert who he baptized) to paint a gigantic copy of it in the apse of his church. I must say, it is quite striking!





Even the New York Times noticed: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/31/nyregion/thecity/31icon.html

The church is quite stunning for being only 50 years old. Worth a visit---and Fr. Rutler celebrates the Mass (both in the new and traidtional form) wonderfully.




I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...
Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.
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« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2009, 12:26:53 AM »

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....
Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.

So did Orthodoxy "sheep steal" me from the Roman Catholic Church, or did I come of my own volition?  You certainly don't seem to be giving those Russians much credit.  I'm pretty sure they can handle making their own decisions.
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