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Author Topic: Chaplet of the Divine Mercy  (Read 17605 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mister Jim Dude
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« on: April 15, 2009, 06:31:39 PM »

Hi,
I am a protestant and have been investigating both orthodoxy and RC: I have a question about the text of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy-
  Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Would this be a prayer that an Orthodox Christian could pray or is there anything "theologically" wrong with it? I am aware that this is a Catholic prayer but I think it is beautiful.

Thanks for your insights. By the way, as I learn more about Orthodoxy, I'll be sure to come here with any questions I have.

Jim
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 07:42:05 PM »

There is a significant different between the Eastern Church and both the Roman and Protestant Church's on the question of what was accomplished by Christ on the Cross. I suggest reading:

 " How We Are Saved " by His Grace  Kallistos  (Timothy) Ware.

I am sure you will get more detailed responses after holy week.
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 12:29:36 PM »

The Chaplet of Divine Mercy is not an Eastern Orthodox practice, the teachings of Blessed Faustina of Poland are in keeping with Roman Catholic teachings of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and not a part of the Eastern Orthodox teachings or beliefs.  For further ideas on the relationship of this devotion to Orthodox devotions you should best contact a local Orthodox Priest or Seminary.  You may be able to get an e-mail response by an Orthodox Priest by contacting the OCA website at www.oca.org which has a specific question and answer series with an OCA priest and seminary teacher providing the answers you seek.

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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 12:49:07 PM »

Let's deal with the devotion itself:

1) Make the Sign of the Cross.

2) Pray the Our Father.

3) Pray the Hail Mary.

4) Recite the Apostles' Creed.

On the large bead before each of the five decades (set of ten prayers):
"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

On each small "Hail Mary"/decade bead:
"For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

After five decades, conclude by saying three times:
"Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

Optional concluding prayers:
"Eternal God, in Whom mercy is endless and the treasury of compassion inexhaustible, look kindly upon us and increase Thy mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Thy holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself. Amen."

What is wrong with this chaplet from a completely theological position? I am not concerned so much that it is Roman Catholic, or "Western". What are the problems? How does it portray Christ's work incorrectly? Thanks, and God Bless.
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2009, 03:13:54 PM »

Anyone?
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 02:41:28 PM »

The question PoorFoolNicholas asked is exactly what I want to know: I do know it's NOT an orthodox prayer but, can an orthodox Xian use this devotion without being theologically incorrect.
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 06:02:43 PM »

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Soul and Divinity offered? This suggests Christ suffered and died in His divinity, which is patripassianism. Correct me if I'm wrong, folks ...
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 09:27:47 PM »

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Soul and Divinity offered? This suggests Christ suffered and died in His divinity, which is patripassianism. Correct me if I'm wrong, folks ...

Actually partripassianism is the idea that on the cross, God the Father suffered. Its comes from the heretical sabellian/modalist view of God that God is only one person manifested three different ways as opposed to the orthodox doctrine that God is one God but three distinct persons.

I would guess that what Eastern Orthodox Christians would dislike the most about the chaplet of divine mercy is that it seems to assume the truth of the doctrine of the atonement which the EO church rejects.
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 11:56:28 PM »

I have always loved this prayer.  It might be a bit unorthodox in its technicalities, but it is simply so beautiful.
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 09:20:04 AM »

I have always loved this prayer.  It might be a bit unorthodox in its technicalities, but it is simply so beautiful.
I love it as well. I have read elsewhere on here about Saint Faustina, and the certain "difficulties" so to speak, regarding her visions. I know there are some issues with these things, but is there really anything wrong with the chaplet itself, as it appears above? I don't see a problem with it, but I am not a theology master either. I am open to hear what everyone thinks, and would love some help on this one. God Bless!
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 11:06:08 AM »

I have always loved this prayer.  It might be a bit unorthodox in its technicalities, but it is simply so beautiful.
I love it as well. I have read elsewhere on here about Saint Faustina, and the certain "difficulties" so to speak, regarding her visions. I know there are some issues with these things, but is there really anything wrong with the chaplet itself, as it appears above? I don't see a problem with it, but I am not a theology master either. I am open to hear what everyone thinks, and would love some help on this one. God Bless!
?
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 02:16:36 PM »

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Soul and Divinity offered? This suggests Christ suffered and died in His divinity, which is patripassianism. Correct me if I'm wrong, folks ...


The phrase "Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity" is what Catholics use to describe the Eucharist. We believe that the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus Christ, whole and entire. That includes his soul and divinity. To put into Eastern terms, when we receive the Eucharist, we receive the whole Christ-life in us.

The Chaplet of the Divine Mercy cannot be understood apart from baptism and the Eucharist.

The Chaplet itself doesn't seem to be problematic from an EO perspective, at least to me---but i'll let those with an EO perspective decide.

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 09:11:48 AM »

The phrase "Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity" is what Catholics use to describe the Eucharist. We believe that the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus Christ, whole and entire. That includes his soul and divinity. To put into Eastern terms, when we receive the Eucharist, we receive the whole Christ-life in us.

The Chaplet of the Divine Mercy cannot be understood apart from baptism and the Eucharist.

The Chaplet itself doesn't seem to be problematic from an EO perspective, at least to me---but i'll let those with an EO perspective decide.
Yes, what do others have to offer on this? I have waited for days. I truly want to know what is wrong with the form posted above, if I were to pray it? Anyone? Please? Pretty please? Cherry on top? Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 09:29:48 AM »

The phrase "Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity" is what Catholics use to describe the Eucharist. We believe that the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus Christ, whole and entire. That includes his soul and divinity. To put into Eastern terms, when we receive the Eucharist, we receive the whole Christ-life in us.

The Chaplet of the Divine Mercy cannot be understood apart from baptism and the Eucharist.

The Chaplet itself doesn't seem to be problematic from an EO perspective, at least to me---but i'll let those with an EO perspective decide.
Yes, what do others have to offer on this? I have waited for days. I truly want to know what is wrong with the form posted above, if I were to pray it? Anyone? Please? Pretty please? Cherry on top? Tongue

Have you tried asking your spiritual father?
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 09:33:42 AM »

Have you tried asking your spiritual father?
He is OK with it. I want to know what the theological problems are with the wording, etc. Please? I know that some are against it. Why?
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 10:10:03 AM »

Have you tried asking your spiritual father?
He is OK with it. I want to know what the theological problems are with the wording, etc. Please? I know that some are against it. Why?
I would think that many EO would object to the offering of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus in atonement for our sins since the modern EO Church rejects the theology of the Atonement.
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 10:27:14 AM »

I would think that many EO would object to the offering of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus in atonement for our sins since the modern EO Church rejects the theology of the Atonement.
I thought that the EO rejects the Satisfaction theory of the Atonement. The above statement doesn't have to suggest the satisfaction theory, does it?
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 10:30:50 AM »

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity  of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

One cannot offer Jesus to the Father , cause the word of God is not owned by us as an object or other thing , is not sorcery and paganism . God gave us His only beggoten Son , and He belongs to the Father , these words are kind of saying Jesus belongs to us and not that we belong to Jesus , the idea of the Divine Mercy is beautiful and I am sure it exists as the psalmist David says : Your mercy is founded in eternity . But i doubt you need to practice a ritual to "earn it" . I desire mercy and not sacrifice says the Lord . In the numbers of the Churches rituals stands the mistakes if you ask me , and my opinion is that if we continue like this the Church will die , we become very superstitious , and coming to Church is like going to an old sorcery or wich . And I think if we need to pray or ask for the Divine Mercy of God wich is from eternity it is not like the above , and the above formulation is wrong . Except the 7 Sacraments of the Church and the liturghy (the true liturghy) all other rituals of Church I consider them unorthodox , and people became from worshiping God , to worshiping objects , books , fallow superstitions , etc . This happens because of the bad interpretation and because of bad clerges and priest who don`t explain the mysteries and sacraments of God as it should . Remmeber the snake Moses rose in the desert wich was destroy later by a king of Israel , because the jews venerated the object and did not comprehended it`s signification and even gave it a name , it sounds familiar with the names some Churches gave to all kings of rites and etc . Be aware of the deceivement of the demon . If you do not know what an particular veneration means , don`t do it .
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 10:37:11 AM »

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity  of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

One cannot offer Jesus to the Father , cause the word of God is not owned by us as an object or other thing , is not sorcery and paganism . God gave us His only beggoten Son , and He belongs to the Father , these words are kind of saying Jesus belongs to us and not that we belong to Jesus , the idea of the Divine Mercy is beautiful and I am sure it exists as the psalmist David says : Your mercy is founded in eternity . But i doubt you need to practice a ritual to "earn it" . I desire mercy and not sacrifice says the Lord . In the numbers of the Churches rituals stands the mistakes if you ask me , and my opinion is that if we continue like this the Church will die , we become very superstitious , and coming to Church is like going to an old sorcery or wich . And I think if we need to pray or ask for the Divine Mercy of God wich is from eternity it is not like the above , and the above formulation is wrong . Except the 7 Sacraments of the Church and the liturghy (the true liturghy) all other rituals of Church I consider them unorthodox , and people became from worshiping God , to worshiping objects , books , fallow superstitions , etc . This happens because of the bad interpretation and because of bad clerges and priest who don`t explain the mysteries and sacraments of God as it should . Remmeber the snake Moses rose in the desert wich was destroy later by a king of Israel , because the jews venerated the object and did not comprehended it`s signification and even gave it a name , it sounds familiar with the names some Churches gave to all kings of rites and etc . Be aware of the deceivement of the demon . If you do not know what an particular veneration means , don`t do it .
Not to offend, but this doesn't help me at all.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 10:38:30 AM »

Are you aware Dan-Romania, that the icon in your profile is closely tied to the Chaplet of Divine Mercy?
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 10:42:52 AM »

I`ve been told that PoorFoolNicholas , and I`m gonna change it now , so that no one will be offended in me .
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 10:52:56 AM »

oops
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 10:54:11 AM »

I`ve been told that PoorFoolNicholas , and I`m gonna change it now , so that no one will be offended in me .
That isn't really needed. If you liked the icon keep it. I'm not offended.
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 11:20:10 AM »

I am going to be a little bold and say something. I have asked a simple question, and waited for five days for an answer. I have even looked at the other threads that deal with this subject. It seems that the Orthodox have a problem with this because it is Western, and Catholic, nothing more. I am aware of the problems with Faustina, and her diary, and visions. I only wanted to discuss the Chaplet itself. What I have found on this, and other threads, is that no one will deal with just the Chaplet prayers. They will condemn Faustina, her diary, and her visions, but never explicitly say what the problems are with the Chaplet. Now that this is argumentative enough, will someone reply?
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 12:08:41 PM »

I am going to be a little bold and say something. I have asked a simple question, and waited for five days for an answer. I have even looked at the other threads that deal with this subject. It seems that the Orthodox have a problem with this because it is Western, and Catholic, nothing more. I am aware of the problems with Faustina, and her diary, and visions. I only wanted to discuss the Chaplet itself. What I have found on this, and other threads, is that no one will deal with just the Chaplet prayers. They will condemn Faustina, her diary, and her visions, but never explicitly say what the problems are with the Chaplet. Now that this is argumentative enough, will someone reply?
I rest my case.
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 12:23:31 PM »

Well, I hope you participate in this beautiful devotion.
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 12:29:26 PM »

Monastery Icons carries this icon in their invbentory:
http://www.monasteryicons.com/monasteryicons/Item_Divine-Mercy_571_ps_srm.html
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 12:43:18 PM »

PFN, there are several older threads going into more detail.
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 02:15:33 PM »

I am going to be a little bold and say something. I have asked a simple question, and waited for five days for an answer. I have even looked at the other threads that deal with this subject. It seems that the Orthodox have a problem with this because it is Western, and Catholic, nothing more. I am aware of the problems with Faustina, and her diary, and visions. I only wanted to discuss the Chaplet itself. What I have found on this, and other threads, is that no one will deal with just the Chaplet prayers. They will condemn Faustina, her diary, and her visions, but never explicitly say what the problems are with the Chaplet. Now that this is argumentative enough, will someone reply?

Perhaps no one is discussing it because for most of us (I'm guessing here but this is certainly the case with me) it is a non-issue. Quite simply: I am Orthodox (not Roman Catholic) and I have Orthodox devotions. I've no need to adopt or incorporate the devotions of other Christians REGARDLESS of how correct they may be. Why? Because Orthodoxy is right belief and right worship. It lacks nothing. If I were to adopt this devotion, then why not adopt dozens of other devotions that could possibly be shown to be theologically correct? Why not bring my bible to church and high-light it as my priest gives his homily the way good evangelicals do? Why not? Because it is not the Orthodox way; never has been and never will be. You say that your priest is fine with it. Well... evidently it must not be sitting well with you or you wouldn't be insisting upon an answer here. Do you want support so that you can lead others into adopting this Roman Catholic devotion? I don't understand your motivation here (and quite frankly, I don't understand the strong Roman Catholic influence on this entire forum which I had thought was an Orthodox forum). Ask your bishop and see what "he" has to say about this devotion. Ask him why we Orthodox do not need to incorporate it into our spiritual practices because I've never heard of any Orthodox saying the chaplet of divine mercy in the 18 years I've been Orthodox (and I've been a member of many Orthodox churches as well a member of three different jurisdictions due to our moving). It's a non-issue quite simply. We have our own beautiful and Orthodox devotional practices.
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 02:22:06 PM »

btw... I've sent this on to my spiritual father, a priest and professor of theology at the university. He is a convert from Catholicism so he should be able to set your mind at ease. I'm off to work so don't expect an answer for several hours.
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« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 03:30:48 PM »

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity  of Thy Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

One cannot offer Jesus to the Father , cause the word of God is not owned by us as an object or other thing , is not sorcery and paganism . God gave us His only beggoten Son , and He belongs to the Father , these words are kind of saying Jesus belongs to us and not that we belong to Jesus , the idea of the Divine Mercy is beautiful and I am sure it exists as the psalmist David says : Your mercy is founded in eternity . But i doubt you need to practice a ritual to "earn it" . I desire mercy and not sacrifice says the Lord . In the numbers of the Churches rituals stands the mistakes if you ask me , and my opinion is that if we continue like this the Church will die , we become very superstitious , and coming to Church is like going to an old sorcery or wich . And I think if we need to pray or ask for the Divine Mercy of God wich is from eternity it is not like the above , and the above formulation is wrong . Except the 7 Sacraments of the Church and the liturghy (the true liturghy) all other rituals of Church I consider them unorthodox , and people became from worshiping God , to worshiping objects , books , fallow superstitions , etc . This happens because of the bad interpretation and because of bad clerges and priest who don`t explain the mysteries and sacraments of God as it should . Remmeber the snake Moses rose in the desert wich was destroy later by a king of Israel , because the jews venerated the object and did not comprehended it`s signification and even gave it a name , it sounds familiar with the names some Churches gave to all kings of rites and etc . Be aware of the deceivement of the demon . If you do not know what an particular veneration means , don`t do it .

But is that not the whole point---making an offering of Jesus to the Father? In the Old Testament, the Israelites made burnt offerings of cattle to God the Father---the true offering to which the sacrifices pointed is Jesus Christ---the Lamb of God. The liturgy is full of references to sacrifice and offering.
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« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 03:31:54 PM »

PFN, there are several older threads going into more detail.
I know. I have spoken about them already above.
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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 03:39:54 PM »

Perhaps no one is discussing it because for most of us (I'm guessing here but this is certainly the case with me) it is a non-issue. Quite simply: I am Orthodox (not Roman Catholic) and I have Orthodox devotions. I've no need to adopt or incorporate the devotions of other Christians REGARDLESS of how correct they may be. Why? Because Orthodoxy is right belief and right worship. It lacks nothing. If I were to adopt this devotion, then why not adopt dozens of other devotions that could possibly be shown to be theologically correct? Why not bring my bible to church and high-light it as my priest gives his homily the way good evangelicals do? Why not? Because it is not the Orthodox way; never has been and never will be. You say that your priest is fine with it. Well... evidently it must not be sitting well with you or you wouldn't be insisting upon an answer here. Do you want support so that you can lead others into adopting this Roman Catholic devotion? I don't understand your motivation here (and quite frankly, I don't understand the strong Roman Catholic influence on this entire forum which I had thought was an Orthodox forum). Ask your bishop and see what "he" has to say about this devotion. Ask him why we Orthodox do not need to incorporate it into our spiritual practices because I've never heard of any Orthodox saying the chaplet of divine mercy in the 18 years I've been Orthodox (and I've been a member of many Orthodox churches as well a member of three different jurisdictions due to our moving). It's a non-issue quite simply. We have our own beautiful and Orthodox devotional practices.
First off, to say that no one cares because it is Catholic? Come on Douglas Roll Eyes That is all people do here! Explain why someone else, or something else is not correct. That is all that I have asked. Yet no one will answer one way or the other. BTW, you caught me....I'm a closet Roman Catholic trying to lead the Orthodox into the Papacy's arms. I am sorry you don't understand why I ask questions. You keep saying that you don't like all the Catholic influence on here. Why not start your own forum where you can control what is talked about? And, yet again, you are giving your opinion. Just because you have never heard of someone praying this chaplet within Orthodoxy does not mean that it is the definitive declaration on this subject. Please, anyone? Are there grave problems, THEOLOGICALLY, with the form of this Chaplet?
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2009, 03:53:28 PM »

Perhaps no one is discussing it because for most of us (I'm guessing here but this is certainly the case with me) it is a non-issue. Quite simply: I am Orthodox (not Roman Catholic) and I have Orthodox devotions. I've no need to adopt or incorporate the devotions of other Christians REGARDLESS of how correct they may be. Why? Because Orthodoxy is right belief and right worship. It lacks nothing. If I were to adopt this devotion, then why not adopt dozens of other devotions that could possibly be shown to be theologically correct? Why not bring my bible to church and high-light it as my priest gives his homily the way good evangelicals do? Why not? Because it is not the Orthodox way; never has been and never will be. You say that your priest is fine with it. Well... evidently it must not be sitting well with you or you wouldn't be insisting upon an answer here. Do you want support so that you can lead others into adopting this Roman Catholic devotion? I don't understand your motivation here (and quite frankly, I don't understand the strong Roman Catholic influence on this entire forum which I had thought was an Orthodox forum). Ask your bishop and see what "he" has to say about this devotion. Ask him why we Orthodox do not need to incorporate it into our spiritual practices because I've never heard of any Orthodox saying the chaplet of divine mercy in the 18 years I've been Orthodox (and I've been a member of many Orthodox churches as well a member of three different jurisdictions due to our moving). It's a non-issue quite simply. We have our own beautiful and Orthodox devotional practices.
See my reply to this post here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20842.0.html
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« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 03:54:25 PM »

Well, I hope you participate in this beautiful devotion.
Thank you brother.
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« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 03:57:16 PM »

Nicholas,

Unlike the Rosary which is pre-schism, the Chaplet is a recent post-schism innovation revealed via private revelation that even Catholics are not required to believe in.  It is easily understandable why Orthodox would not be encouraged to use this devotion.  If one has time for devotion why not pray the Akathist to Our Lord Jesus Christ or His Passsion:

http://www.monachos.net/content/liturgics/liturgical-texts/235-akathist-to-our-sweetest-jesus-christ

http://www.monachos.net/content/liturgics/liturgical-texts/236-akathist-to-the-divine-passion-of-christ

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2009, 04:01:23 PM »

Nicholas,

Unlike the Rosary which is pre-schism, the Chaplet is a recent post-schism innovation revealed via private revelation that even Catholics are not required to believe in.  It is easily understandable why Orthodox would not be encouraged to use this devotion.  If one has time for devotion why not pray the Akathist to Our Lord Jesus Christ or His Passsion:

http://www.monachos.net/content/liturgics/liturgical-texts/235-akathist-to-our-sweetest-jesus-christ

http://www.monachos.net/content/liturgics/liturgical-texts/236-akathist-to-the-divine-passion-of-christ

Fr. Deacon Lance
Thanks to you my brother. I know that it is post-schism. I realize how it came about.  I just want to know what the theological problems are with the WORDS of the Chaplet?
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2009, 04:09:02 PM »

First off, to say that no one cares because it is Catholic? Come on Douglas Roll Eyes That is all people do here! Explain why someone else, or something else is not correct. That is all that I have asked. Yet no one will answer one way or the other. BTW, you caught me....I'm a closet Roman Catholic trying to lead the Orthodox into the Papacy's arms. I am sorry you don't understand why I ask questions. You keep saying that you don't like all the Catholic influence on here. Why not start your own forum where you can control what is talked about? And, yet again, you are giving your opinion. Just because you have never heard of someone praying this chaplet within Orthodoxy does not mean that it is the definitive declaration on this subject. Please, anyone? Are there grave problems, THEOLOGICALLY, with the form of this Chaplet?

I'm haven't responded because it's a Catholic thing and I really just don't care.  Douglas can chalk up one to his explanation now.

And seriously, why the insistence that someone ratify your use of it?  Is it that you want public approval of your use of Latin customs or are you really that uncertain as to whether you should use it, even after consulting your spiritual father?
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2009, 04:40:15 PM »

First off, to say that no one cares because it is Catholic? Come on Douglas Roll Eyes That is all people do here! Explain why someone else, or something else is not correct. That is all that I have asked. Yet no one will answer one way or the other. BTW, you caught me....I'm a closet Roman Catholic trying to lead the Orthodox into the Papacy's arms. I am sorry you don't understand why I ask questions. You keep saying that you don't like all the Catholic influence on here. Why not start your own forum where you can control what is talked about? And, yet again, you are giving your opinion. Just because you have never heard of someone praying this chaplet within Orthodoxy does not mean that it is the definitive declaration on this subject. Please, anyone? Are there grave problems, THEOLOGICALLY, with the form of this Chaplet?

I'm haven't responded because it's a Catholic thing and I really just don't care.  Douglas can chalk up one to his explanation now.

And seriously, why the insistence that someone ratify your use of it?  Is it that you want public approval of your use of Latin customs or are you really that uncertain as to whether you should use it, even after consulting your spiritual father?
Well, from what I understand, he's not looking for a ratification of his usage but wants to know if there are serious Eastern Orthodox objections to the prayer of the Divine Mercy Chaplet. I think that there might be based on the differences in atonement theology. But hey, I (being a card carrying Papist  Cheesy ) am all for everyone praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet.
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2009, 05:44:34 PM »

I would say the prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest.  To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2009, 07:01:31 PM »

I would say the prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest.  To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance


No offense meant, but if that is the worst thing wrong with the Chaplet, I think that it is fine. Anyone else? Even if you think it is a "Catholic thing" and just don't care.
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2009, 08:00:46 PM »

Well.....I give up....... Cry
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2009, 08:20:45 PM »

I would say the prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest.  To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Fr. Deacon Lance, this is the best objection I have heard to the prayer. Not that I want to get rid of it now, but you have provided some new insight into the debate.
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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 08:54:00 PM »

I am going to be a little bold and say something. I have asked a simple question, and waited for five days for an answer. I have even looked at the other threads that deal with this subject. It seems that the Orthodox have a problem with this because it is Western, and Catholic, nothing more. I am aware of the problems with Faustina, and her diary, and visions. I only wanted to discuss the Chaplet itself. What I have found on this, and other threads, is that no one will deal with just the Chaplet prayers. They will condemn Faustina, her diary, and her visions, but never explicitly say what the problems are with the Chaplet. Now that this is argumentative enough, will someone reply?

Perhaps no one is discussing it because for most of us (I'm guessing here but this is certainly the case with me) it is a non-issue. Quite simply: I am Orthodox (not Roman Catholic) and I have Orthodox devotions. I've no need to adopt or incorporate the devotions of other Christians REGARDLESS of how correct they may be. Why? Because Orthodoxy is right belief and right worship. It lacks nothing. If I were to adopt this devotion, then why not adopt dozens of other devotions that could possibly be shown to be theologically correct? Why not bring my bible to church and high-light it as my priest gives his homily the way good evangelicals do? Why not? Because it is not the Orthodox way; never has been and never will be. You say that your priest is fine with it. Well... evidently it must not be sitting well with you or you wouldn't be insisting upon an answer here. Do you want support so that you can lead others into adopting this Roman Catholic devotion? I don't understand your motivation here (and quite frankly, I don't understand the strong Roman Catholic influence on this entire forum which I had thought was an Orthodox forum). Ask your bishop and see what "he" has to say about this devotion. Ask him why we Orthodox do not need to incorporate it into our spiritual practices because I've never heard of any Orthodox saying the chaplet of divine mercy in the 18 years I've been Orthodox (and I've been a member of many Orthodox churches as well a member of three different jurisdictions due to our moving). It's a non-issue quite simply. We have our own beautiful and Orthodox devotional practices.

Very well said, in fact excellent.

It's a non-issue.

In addition to Thomas' excellent response No.: 2 above, here are my brief additions, given as a shallow attempt to hash PFN's anger against Orthodox, 'cause he simply disregarded the answers he didn't like.

-words of the prayer do have underlying Anselmian view (emphasize on passion, and the sacrifice offered to the Father) which is explicitly refused by St. Gregory of Nyssa some centuries before Anselm, is refused by Orthodoxy (and I may add is pretty odious to me)

-we don't recite any other Creed but Nicea-Constantinoplean one, particularly not the Creed named after the Apostoles and invented some centuries after them;

-several other stuff, but I guess the above is quite clear why no Orthodox would recite it.
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2009, 09:51:15 PM »

I would say the prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest.  To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Hmm, you know, I had not thought of this. I think your criticism is actually well founded!*

Perhaps a change of pronoun might make it a bit less objectionable?

"Eternal Father, I we offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."


or perhaps even better:

"Eternal Father, I offer You accept the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."


This would put it more in line with the Oratre Fratres in the Mass, which follows:

(priest) Pray, brethren,
that my sacrifice and yours
may be acceptable to God,
the almighty Father.

(response) May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good
and the good of all his holy Church.


Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.


*(To EWTN's credit, their daily Chaplet of Divine Mercy is (or, at least, was, when I used to watch it a couple of years ago) always led by a priest in kneeling adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and in the presence of the sacred image of the Divine Mercy.)
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« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2009, 12:19:49 AM »

Essentially my spiritual father confirmed what I had posted some hours earlier. Here are his words to me:

"There doesn't seem to be anything majorly wrong theologically (except for the atonement thing). I think the main problem is with the origins in some questionable visions, and the fact that the whole "Divine Mercy" business is used by the RC church as a means to a one-church world.
 
It seems to me that the desire to use this chaplet arises from a dissatisfaction with Orthodox spiritual life and "itching ears" looking for new and different things. Why do we need to go searching in other denominations when we have plenty of authentic spiritual practices in our own. I'm sure there's nothing "theologically" wrong with Tibetan prayer wheels (as long as an Orthodox text would be in them), but that doesn't mean they should be used. The problem is that these practices, while they may be theologically OK, grow up in an atmosphere that is not and carry baggage with them that lie outside the actual words or practices.
 
Perhaps someone could use this chaplet to their advantage, but there is no reason why an Orthodox person should even think that Orthodox should be using it. That would be absurd.

We have a seven course banquet of spiritual practices--why would we want to give that up for this?"

-----

I have to re-iterate that our Orthodox devotions are enough for me and for most Orthodox Christians. I leave the Catholic devotions to the Catholics and let the Lord judge. It's simply of no interest to me. I'm Orthodox.
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« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2009, 12:20:30 AM »

Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.
Why would we want to?
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« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2009, 01:08:32 AM »

Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.
Why would we want to?

Well, I was just answering a question about the devotion. Apparently some of you DO want to, which is why this thread exists.

I can understand you. I don't do any distinctively Orthodox devotions either---well, save the Jesus Prayer.
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« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2009, 01:14:09 AM »

Of course, it being a private devotion, even Catholics can pray it however they wish. It goes without saying that Orthodox can adapt it for their uses.
Why would we want to?

Well, I was just answering a question about the devotion. Apparently some of you DO want to, which is why this thread exists.

I can understand you. I don't do any distinctively Orthodox devotions either---well, save the Jesus Prayer.
You know, the thought just came to me that this thread is STILL in the Convert Issues section, which should guide how we read and discuss this subject.  So far, I think we've been much more lenient in permitting Orthodox-Catholic dialogue on this thread than maybe we should have.  So, until Thomas has a chance to review this thread and decide whether he wants to keep it in Convert Issues, I suggest that our Catholic posters offer us the courtesy of backing off so as to allow us to discuss the Chaplet of Divine Mercy from the point of view of Orthodox speaking to a potential convert to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2009, 06:45:41 AM »

I like it , but i sense there is something fishy in the middle of it
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« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2009, 06:56:08 AM »

Didn't this new Revelation the Divine Mercy,that catholics have a devotion too ,surplant pascha the feast of feasts as the greater mercy.by observing the first 5 or 9 Fridays for 5 or 9 months after  pascha,,isn't indulgences involved  as well in this devotion also the sacred hearts ..

Im mind boggled by this !why would the catholic church chase after spurious new revelation given by talking Apparitions and shelf what was handed down to us by Christ and The Holy Spirit to the Holy apostles they to the Holy Fathers to the church....

Its another Gospel these apparitions are preaching, unknown to the Holy Fathers Faith once and for all delivered..
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« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2009, 07:35:22 AM »

Didn't this new Revelation the Divine Mercy,that catholics have a devotion too ,surplant pascha the feast of feasts as the greater mercy....

It does seem that the Feast of the Divine Mercy has a greater significance than the Feast of the Resurrection and offers more mercy to sinners.

Here are the words which the Saviour is supposed to have said to Faustina:

"On one occasion, I heard these words: My daughter, tell the whole world about My Inconceivable mercy. I desire that the Feast of Mercy be a refuge and shelter for all souls, and especially for poor sinners. On that day the very depths of My tender mercy are open. I pour out a whole ocean of graces upon those souls who approach the fount of My mercy. The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.  On that day all the divine floodgates through which grace flow are opened. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy. Every soul in its relation to Me will I contemplate My love and mercy throughout eternity. The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy."

Source :: http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/feast.htm

There may well be a danger that in popular devotion the Feast of Divine Mercy could be seen as more powerful than the Resurrection.  Confession and Communion on the Sunday after Easter are more "powerful" and efficacious than Communion on Easter day itself.

Orthodox ought to steer clear of it for this reason, if for no other.
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« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2009, 08:31:13 AM »

You are right the purpose of this feast is to distract people from the true Divine Mercy wich is our Passover , trough grace , God`s gift .The Divine Mercy is God`s great gift to us , Jesus Christ , The Way , the Salvation wich comes from grace so that no one elate , trought God great mercy and love . He already gave Himself as sacrifice once for all , in him is accomplish all law , there is no need for another sacrifice . Cause He is without sin , and the High Priest , the Lamb of God , wich enter somewere beyond the saint of Saint and it is there forever in the heavens . This thing is to minimize the offering of Jesus and to elate and promote sins because trought "this ceremony" people "benefit" of a "special grace" . To say that the offering of Jesus was not perfect and to minimize the role of Jesus Christ , and that His sacrifice was not enough to wash the sins of all world , that is why He needs to be slaughtered again and again . Everyone who drinks the blood of the Lamb and eats the flesh of the Lamb stays in God and God in Him . Jesus said : Father desires worshipers in true and spirit . "I desire mercy and not born sacrifice" ; also it is written in the psalms and hebrews that the biggest sacrifice for our atonement is Jesus Christ once for all , and it says burn offering and sacrifice you did not desire , then I said : Here I am . In the head of the scroll is written about me . God wants mercy more than burnt offerings , and the knowing of God before sacrifice . To love God and our neighbours with all our heart . What you want people to do to you do them yourself . And this is the eternal life that they know you the one and only God , and Jesus God wich you has sent . Who doesn`t love does not know God for God is Love . Who doesn`t love his brother wich he can see , how can he love God wich he can`t see . This is from John and 1John , reproduced with my words .
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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2009, 09:11:12 AM »

We all need to fallow Christ by eating His flesh and drinking His blood . The offering is given once , His Body is given and His body is the true meal and His blood the true drink . We need to eat from the sacrifice of the Lamb , to take our cross and fallow Him(cause the sins are not washed untill we eat from him) and all who belong to Jesus Christ have killed their flesh with Him on the cross and therefore becomes themselves sacrifice to God, they offer themselves to God ,by denying themselves , they become as the lamb if they fallow the Lamb . So Jesus does not need to be sacrifice and given to God more than once , but we need to give ourselves to Jesus , to become a member of the Body wich is His flesh , to be a member of the Lamb  . When it comes what is perfect what is in part will cease .The sacrifice of Jesus is for atonement of all humanity and for the washing of all sins in eternity , we just need to fallow Him and to become a part of Him ,and to eat and drink from Him. And we will remain in Him , and as Him resurrected , we will resurrect and we will inherit the kingdom of heaven . I think this confusion is due to "security of Salvation" and that needs to be made clear .
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« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 09:24:39 AM »

...It's a non-issue.

In addition to Thomas' excellent response No.: 2 above, here are my brief additions, given as a shallow attempt to hash PFN's anger against Orthodox, 'cause he simply disregarded the answers he didn't like.

-words of the prayer do have underlying Anselmian view (emphasize on passion, and the sacrifice offered to the Father) which is explicitly refused by St. Gregory of Nyssa some centuries before Anselm, is refused by Orthodoxy (and I may add is pretty odious to me)

-we don't recite any other Creed but Nicea-Constantinoplean one, particularly not the Creed named after the Apostoles and invented some centuries after them...
First off, I am not angry with anyone here. The only reason that I put on the harsh tone was to get someone, anyone, to answer me. Which, in my experience here, is the only way it seems to work. The answers that I seemed to disregard have nothing at all to do with the words of the Chaplet itself, and yet again, in the previous posts others are re-hashing the Faustina, visions, etc. problems. I am well aware of these problems. I just want to consider the words. I am very thankful that you have given some food-for-thought concerning the words of this chaplet. I would have to say, though, that the chaplet does not have to be interpreted with the Anselmian mindset. You have spoken of St. Gregory of Nyssa. Do you have any quotations that would be helpful to me, and others, regarding this chaplet? I would very much like to see them. It is just, to put it quite frankly, completely bizarre why no one will talk about this, though. I know that for many it is a "non-issue". But seriously, 3/4 of everything debated on this forum is a non-issue. Whether the Democrats are better than the Republicans, in the politics forum, or which Church has preserved the faith better, in the Eastern/Oriental forum. Or the myriad of other topics with Protestants, and Evangelicals. The list goes on.
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 11:29:01 AM »

I am completely astonished that any Orthodox christian would need to start saying Roman Catholic prayers, or even need to know about them! We have SO MANY of our own prayers that I for one do not manage to say or know them all, much less start on RC prayers! Shocked I would just avoid it and stick with our own. Any other course is a simply an unnecessary "temptation" as my Russian friends would say.
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 12:22:20 PM »

I am completely astonished that any Orthodox christian would need to start saying Roman Catholic prayers, or even need to know about them! We have SO MANY of our own prayers that I for one do not manage to say or know them all, much less start on RC prayers! Shocked I would just avoid it and stick with our own. Any other course is a simply an unnecessary "temptation" as my Russian friends would say.

Very well said, sister.
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« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2009, 12:48:42 PM »

The Chaplet of Divine Mercy is not an Eastern Orthodox practice, the teachings of Blessed Faustina of Poland are in keeping with Roman Catholic teachings of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and not a part of the Eastern Orthodox teachings or beliefs.  For further ideas on the relationship of this devotion to Orthodox devotions you should best contact a local Orthodox Priest or Seminary.  You may be able to get an e-mail response by an Orthodox Priest by contacting the OCA website at www.oca.org which has a specific question and answer series with an OCA priest and seminary teacher providing the answers you seek.

Thomas

I have already given my personal response on this issue, but it is obvious that the suggestions made were not followed, instead it has  gone from a Convert issue to that of a debate that rightfully belongs to the Orthodox-Roman Catholic discussion forum where I am sending it.

Thomas
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« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2009, 04:51:46 PM »

Very well said, sister.
Care to, perhaps, provide what Gregory of Nyssa had to say about this? I said above that it didn't have to have an Anselmian meaning, thoughts? I really would love to see the quotes from St. Gregory.
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« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2009, 06:03:45 PM »

Very well said, sister.
Care to, perhaps, provide what Gregory of Nyssa had to say about this? I said above that it didn't have to have an Anselmian meaning, thoughts? I really would love to see the quotes from St. Gregory.
You keep on insisting on your need to know what theological problems we Orthodox might see in the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.  Many of the Orthodox here respond with equal insistence that you just don't need to know.  I don't understand, then, why you keep on insisting that we answer your questions the way you want them answered. Huh

Personally, I find myself agreeing with the many who have already told you that Orthodoxy is so complete in its traditions of prayer that you just don't need to look to outside traditions for anything they might offer.  The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever, and if a Catholic wants to pray the prayer, we may encourage them to do so.  But you're not a Roman Catholic.  What spirituality can an RC practice offer you that Orthodoxy hasn't offered already?
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« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2009, 09:39:04 PM »

Essentially my spiritual father confirmed what I had posted some hours earlier. Here are his words to me:

"There doesn't seem to be anything majorly wrong theologically (except for the atonement thing). I think the main problem is with the origins in some questionable visions, and the fact that the whole "Divine Mercy" business is used by the RC church as a means to a one-church world.
 
It seems to me that the desire to use this chaplet arises from a dissatisfaction with Orthodox spiritual life and "itching ears" looking for new and different things. Why do we need to go searching in other denominations when we have plenty of authentic spiritual practices in our own. I'm sure there's nothing "theologically" wrong with Tibetan prayer wheels (as long as an Orthodox text would be in them), but that doesn't mean they should be used. The problem is that these practices, while they may be theologically OK, grow up in an atmosphere that is not and carry baggage with them that lie outside the actual words or practices.
 
Perhaps someone could use this chaplet to their advantage, but there is no reason why an Orthodox person should even think that Orthodox should be using it. That would be absurd.

We have a seven course banquet of spiritual practices--why would we want to give that up for this?"

-----

I have to re-iterate that our Orthodox devotions are enough for me and for most Orthodox Christians. I leave the Catholic devotions to the Catholics and let the Lord judge. It's simply of no interest to me. I'm Orthodox.


I would say this is the best answer thus far. The question isn't whether we can, but whether we should pray this prayer.
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« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2009, 09:53:56 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas, where on earth did you find that ikon for an avatar?  It cannot be from an Orthodox source...
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« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2009, 10:26:36 PM »

Didn't this new Revelation the Divine Mercy,that catholics have a devotion too ,surplant pascha the feast of feasts as the greater mercy....

It does seem that the Feast of the Divine Mercy has a greater significance than the Feast of the Resurrection and offers more mercy to sinners.

Here are the words which the Saviour is supposed to have said to Faustina:

"On one occasion, I heard these words: My daughter, tell the whole world about My Inconceivable mercy. I desire that the Feast of Mercy be a refuge and shelter for all souls, and especially for poor sinners. On that day the very depths of My tender mercy are open. I pour out a whole ocean of graces upon those souls who approach the fount of My mercy. The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.  On that day all the divine floodgates through which grace flow are opened. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity. Everything that exists has come forth from the very depths of My most tender mercy. Every soul in its relation to Me will I contemplate My love and mercy throughout eternity. The Feast of Mercy emerged from My very depths of tenderness. It is My desire that it be solemnly celebrated on the first Sunday after Easter. Mankind will not have peace until it turns to the Fount of My Mercy."

Source :: http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/feast.htm

There may well be a danger that in popular devotion the Feast of Divine Mercy could be seen as more powerful than the Resurrection.  Confession and Communion on the Sunday after Easter are more "powerful" and efficacious than Communion on Easter day itself.

Orthodox ought to steer clear of it for this reason, if for no other.

Thank You! Father For Clarifying this.....Oche Blagoslovi....
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« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2009, 10:29:00 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas, where on earth did you find that ikon for an avatar?  It cannot be from an Orthodox source...

Why do you say that?
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« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2009, 11:34:44 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas, where on earth did you find that ikon for an avatar?  It cannot be from an Orthodox source...

It's one of the "lovely" creations from the well-known outfit called "Monastery Icons". This image is an "icon" of the Divine Mercy, as seen by St Faustina. It is not an image from Orthodox tradition. Care to enlighten us as to your choice of avatar, poorfoolnicholas?
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« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2009, 11:39:59 PM »

I looked it up and they have some good icons.  I like the one of Juan Diego.
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« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2009, 11:46:52 PM »

I looked it up and they have some good icons.  I like the one of Juan Diego.

Much of their work cannot be called iconography from an Orthodox perspective. Their "icons" also lack any spiritual warmth or sanctity, as all the images look like they've been created using Photoshop. Bland and sterile.
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« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2009, 12:46:45 AM »

It's one of the "lovely" creations from the well-known outfit called "Monastery Icons".

Is this not the monastery that incorporates not only Orthodox and Catholic monastic practices, but also Buddhist and Hindu practices as well?  Are they affiliated with any church specifically?
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« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2009, 01:01:35 AM »

Is this not the monastery that incorporates not only Orthodox and Catholic monastic practices, but also Buddhist and Hindu practices as well?  Are they affiliated with any church specifically?

Yup, that's the one. I don't think they're officially affiliated with any church, though they may claim they belong somewhere.
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« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2009, 02:46:31 AM »

I agree that that faux-Eastern "icon" of the Divine Mercy image is not very good.

Speaking of icons, I saw a lovely one at the (Latin Catholic) Church of Our Saviour in New York City last Sunday. The famous Fr. George Rutler, pastor of the parish (and admirer of the Christian East), saw a medieval Byzantine copy of the famous 6th-century Mount Sinai Christ Pantokrator at an exhibition in the Metropolitan Museum of Art five years ago. He commissioned a Chinese muralist (a convert who he baptized) to paint a gigantic copy of it in the apse of his church. I must say, it is quite striking!





Even the New York Times noticed: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/31/nyregion/thecity/31icon.html

The church is quite stunning for being only 50 years old. Worth a visit---and Fr. Rutler celebrates the Mass (both in the new and traidtional form) wonderfully.

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« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2009, 03:21:56 AM »

From what I can tell the church is beautiful, but I do wish there were more pictures and that this picture was larger!
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« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2009, 05:43:36 AM »

Some quotes which made me cringe!!! from the NYT article:

"There's $500 to $600 of gold on the halo itself," said Donal Murray, one of two artists who created the painting.

"I thought it was a nice, friendly face," he said.

For all the painting's grandeur, Father Rutler conceded that perhaps not everyone would love it. "You know how New Yorkers are," he said. Christ himself could come down, "and they'd say, 'What time's the next subway?'"
 

Quote 1: So what?? The financial outlay doesn't matter a fig as to whether an icon is a "true" icon. What is far more important is the prayer and fasting that went into its painting, and its adherence to iconographic and liturgical canon.

Quote 2: A "nice, friendly face"?? Oh, puh-leeze! We're talking about the Son of God here, the God and Man. An icon of Christ is not merely a sentimental painting of “our dear friend Jesus” but portrays Him in His divinity as well as in His humanity, His absolute demands on us as well as His infinite mercy.

Quote 3: An icon is not painted "to be loved". An icon is painted to express the revelation of God to humanity, to illustrate and proclaim the truths and doctrines of the Christian faith, to inspire awe and reverence to the subject portrayed in the icon (be it Christ, the Mother of God, or the saints and angels), and to inspire a prayerful disposition upon him or her who stands before the icon.
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« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2009, 07:49:40 AM »

Keep in mind that those quotes are filtered through the Times writer, who took tiny snippets of much longer interviews. In other words, the writer only included things that he considered interesting or important.

I know from the good Father's homilies that he is very well versed on the role of Christ as King and Judge.
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« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2009, 08:43:42 AM »

That is a beautiful church.
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« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2009, 09:10:05 AM »

That is a beautiful church.
AMM, I love how the information keeps changing on your profile. Its keeping us all on our feet. LOL
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« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2009, 09:10:18 AM »

The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever...
Thank you. I, like the original poster on this topic, just love the wording of the Chaplet. I don't think at all, that it trumps anything Orthodox, and I mean anything. Thanks to all, God Bless!
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« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »

It's really not a question of whether it "trumps" anything that is Orthodox. It's just that we Orthodox have the right faith and the right worship. There is nothing lacking in Orthodoxy. We don't need to go looking elsewhere for devotions to our Lord when we have the full banquet. That's why it's been a non-issue from the git-go.
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« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2009, 10:20:06 AM »

It's really not a question of whether it "trumps" anything that is Orthodox. It's just that we Orthodox have the right faith and the right worship. There is nothing lacking in Orthodoxy. We don't need to go looking elsewhere for devotions to our Lord when we have the full banquet. That's why it's been a non-issue from the git-go.
Broken record. Seriously.
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« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2009, 11:39:43 AM »

Orthodoxy is right worship... right belief: SERIOUSLY. And I'm not ashamed to repeat it and be likened to a broken record... seriously. Wink
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« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2009, 11:43:18 AM »

Orthodoxy is right worship... right belief: SERIOUSLY. And I'm not ashamed to repeat it and be likened to a broken record... seriously. Wink
Dude... seriously.  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2009, 11:54:57 AM »

It's really not a question of whether it "trumps" anything that is Orthodox. It's just that we Orthodox have the right faith and the right worship. There is nothing lacking in Orthodoxy. We don't need to go looking elsewhere for devotions to our Lord when we have the full banquet. That's why it's been a non-issue from the git-go.
Broken record. Seriously.

PoorfoolNicholas,
Are you a catholic Masquerading as a Orthodox Christian,Curious ,why seek or accept new revalation thru talking apparitions that are questionable..when we have the ancient faith once delivered ...
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« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2009, 11:56:53 AM »

PoorfoolNicholas,
Are you a catholic Masquerading as a Orthodox Christian,Curious ,why seek or accept new revalation thru talking apparitions that are questionable..when we have the ancient faith once delivered ...
You caught me....cue the James Bond Theme Song...... Cool
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« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2009, 11:57:53 AM »

Orthodoxy is right worship... right belief: SERIOUSLY. And I'm not ashamed to repeat it and be likened to a broken record... seriously. Wink
If it is such a non-issue for you, why are you sending the exact opposite message with you posts then?
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« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2009, 01:01:52 PM »

Being a non-issue does not translate into my not taking an interest in countering what I believe to be erroneous information being passed off as though it were perfectly acceptable for Orthodox believers. It means that for most Orthodox, practicing heterodox devotions is a non-issue simply because it is unnecessary. As my spiritual father said, whereas the issue of the atonement is questionable to Orthodox belief, our seeking after new and different devotional practices is not to be encouraged. Why not incorporate a Tibetan prayer wheel in your devotions but substitute the Jesus Prayer? Not good... nor is the avatar you are using. You were quite insistent that someone had to respond to you many posts back. No one was taking an interest simplyl because for most it is a non-issue (i.e. we don't adopt the devotional practices of the non-Orthodox because we don't need to when we have the complete faith once for all delivered to the Saints). But you kept hammering away and when it was pointed out that the theology while questionable was probably not all that far off Orthodox theology BUT that the notion of adopting this practice was both unnecessary and unthinkable (for most Orthodox Christians that I know at least) you refused to accept this defense.

Bottom line: do as you please since I suspect that's what you're going to do anyway. And this is my last post on the matter since it's belaboring the point. But be advised that very, very few Orthodox Christians will be adopting this devotion or any other Catholic (or heterodox devotion) for the reasons this "broken record" has given ad nauseum. Sorry to have offended you since it appears you're quite irritated by my defense of Orthodox praxis.
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« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2009, 03:13:50 PM »

Being a non-issue does not translate into my not taking an interest in countering what I believe to be erroneous information being passed off as though it were perfectly acceptable for Orthodox believers. It means that for most Orthodox, practicing heterodox devotions is a non-issue simply because it is unnecessary. As my spiritual father said, whereas the issue of the atonement is questionable to Orthodox belief, our seeking after new and different devotional practices is not to be encouraged. Why not incorporate a Tibetan prayer wheel in your devotions but substitute the Jesus Prayer? Not good... nor is the avatar you are using. You were quite insistent that someone had to respond to you many posts back. No one was taking an interest simplyl because for most it is a non-issue (i.e. we don't adopt the devotional practices of the non-Orthodox because we don't need to when we have the complete faith once for all delivered to the Saints). But you kept hammering away and when it was pointed out that the theology while questionable was probably not all that far off Orthodox theology BUT that the notion of adopting this practice was both unnecessary and unthinkable (for most Orthodox Christians that I know at least) you refused to accept this defense.

Bottom line: do as you please since I suspect that's what you're going to do anyway. And this is my last post on the matter since it's belaboring the point. But be advised that very, very few Orthodox Christians will be adopting this devotion or any other Catholic (or heterodox devotion) for the reasons this "broken record" has given ad nauseum. Sorry to have offended you since it appears you're quite irritated by my defense of Orthodox praxis.
I'm not irritated. You have just been clear from post one what you feel, and think. This is completely fine. I am just pointing out that you keep saying it over and over again. God Bless.
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« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2009, 07:25:16 PM »

As far as I can tell, there is nothing theologically incorrect about the actual words of that prayer you present.  After all, as someone has already mentioned, the eucharistic prayer the priest recites says, "we offer you your own of your own, in behalf of all and for all."  This implies that we, the Church, offer up.  However, based on what I know of Faustina, I would be careful in accepting any of the explanations regarding what the prayer actually accomplishes.  And really, as others have said, why use this devotion when we have so many wonderful ones within Orthodoxy?  Not to mention that our devotions are not only theologically correct in words, but in their origins, which many Catholic devotions cannot claim.  Personally, if you absolutely need a Western devotion, I would keep to the Rosary.  There is nothing wrong with the Rosary. 

God bless.

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« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2009, 11:52:43 PM »

Better yet, as a Mass-and-Office type of Catholic, I would recommend praying some of the Office! I can't think of a better or more ancient devotional practice...

A very good choice would be to get a copy of the Monastic Diurnal, which consists of the traditional Benedictine day hours (all except Matins).

You have two options for getting a copy:

Lancelot Andrews Press has an English-only version. I purchased a copy of this for a traditional Anglican friend of mine. The operator of the website is a very genial Western-rite Orthodox priest. Western-rite Orthodox commonly use this book (it is approved by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate).

http://www.andrewespress.com/md.html

The second option is purchasing a copy from the famous Farnborough Abbey, a traditional Benedictine Abbey in England in communion with Rome. This one has the advantage of being in English and Latin side-by-side. I pray from this one.

http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/press/dirunal.php
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« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2009, 12:03:49 AM »

I can't think of a better or more ancient devotional practice...

A very good choice would be to get a copy of

I'm afraid I'll have to decline as an Orthodox Christian. But I can certainly offer to you and any others a much better way of offering a devotion to our Lord and Savior. It is to pray the Canon of Repentance to our Lord Jesus Christ . This can be found here: http://www.orthodox.cn/liturgical/prayerbook/daily/canonrepentance_en.htm
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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2009, 12:21:40 AM »

I agree that that faux-Eastern "icon" of the Divine Mercy image is not very good.

Speaking of icons, I saw a lovely one at the (Latin Catholic) Church of Our Saviour in New York City last Sunday. The famous Fr. George Rutler, pastor of the parish (and admirer of the Christian East), saw a medieval Byzantine copy of the famous 6th-century Mount Sinai Christ Pantokrator at an exhibition in the Metropolitan Museum of Art five years ago. He commissioned a Chinese muralist (a convert who he baptized) to paint a gigantic copy of it in the apse of his church. I must say, it is quite striking!





Even the New York Times noticed: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/31/nyregion/thecity/31icon.html

The church is quite stunning for being only 50 years old. Worth a visit---and Fr. Rutler celebrates the Mass (both in the new and traidtional form) wonderfully.




I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...
Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.
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« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2009, 12:26:53 AM »

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....
Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.

So did Orthodoxy "sheep steal" me from the Roman Catholic Church, or did I come of my own volition?  You certainly don't seem to be giving those Russians much credit.  I'm pretty sure they can handle making their own decisions.
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« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2009, 12:30:42 AM »

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...
Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.


And that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.  But groundless, nonsensical remarks seem ever so common... The Roman Catholic Church has a history of iconography too, of which, it was common with Orthodoxy for a thousand years. 

Please, back on topic, or warnings/moderation will occur swiftly.

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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2009, 12:41:41 AM »

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...
Fr.Ambrose mentioned once somewhere on this forum about Israels russian jews. that were actully russian orthodox christians,,And the Eastern Catholic were there prepared to sheep steal them away.


And that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.  But groundless, nonsensical remarks seem ever so common... The Roman Catholic Church has a history of iconography too, of which, it was common with Orthodoxy for a thousand years. 

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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2009, 02:59:13 AM »

I wouldn't put it past the Roman Catholic Church ,By embellishing this church and possibly other churches ,with Orthodox Icons probably just another Sheep Stealing Tactic....Must be alot of orthodox in that neighborhood...

Oh, I'm sure Fr. Rutler had just that intention in mind. After all, Park Ave in Midtown Manhattan is obviously chock-full of Orthodox Christian sheep... Wink

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Getting back on topic... Douglas, the Lancelot Andrews edition of the Monastic Diurnal is actually approved for Western-rite Orthodox use.

It's an interesting question---the Western-rite Orthodox Mass is in a post-schism form (tacked-on Byzantine epiclesis or not). So post-schism devotions and practices are not out of the question, at least for Western-riters. Of course, the Rosary as commonly practiced today is also in a post-schism form. Perhaps the branch cut from the tree can still bear some fruit (though perhaps it is more like a graft than a branch being cut).
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2009, 09:06:23 AM »

I'm just intrigued that the devotion inserts the Trisagon.
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2009, 09:09:59 AM »


Getting back on topic... Douglas, the Lancelot Andrews edition of the Monastic Diurnal is actually approved for Western-rite Orthodox use.
Thank you very much. I heard about it on Ancient Faith Radio dealing with Western Rite Orthodoxy. This will be good. Thanks. God Bless!
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« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2009, 09:13:46 AM »

The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.  

Any devotion that encourages Confession and receiving Holy Communion can't be totally wrong.  After being Orthodox over 25 years, I am still discovering a wealth of Orthodox devotions...enough to keep me busy until I stand before the Lord in judgment.  One Orthodox bishop when asked about Eastern meditation said, "Why look elsewhere?  Orthodoxy has everything you need."
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« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2009, 08:07:12 PM »

 

Quote
Personally, I find myself agreeing with the many who have already told you that Orthodoxy is so complete in its traditions of prayer that you just don't need to look to outside traditions for anything they might offer.  The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever, and if a Catholic wants to pray the prayer, we may encourage them to do so.  But you're not a Roman Catholic.  What spirituality can an RC practice offer you that Orthodoxy hasn't offered already?
 


Hi, this remains a convert issue for me because in my search for the truth, I want to know where God is at work. I am prepared to accept that Orthodoxy is the fullness of the Gospel but does that mean that God does not draw people to himself in other traditions like the RC or my own current Church of the Nazarene? In my view, to say God is NOT at work in them is to say they are all going to hell.  And if God does work in other tradtions, albeit incompletely, than cannot a person, even an Orthodox person, grow through the wording of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, even if the visions are suspect?

I look forward to any comments that might help me.
jim
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« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2009, 08:39:50 PM »



Quote
Personally, I find myself agreeing with the many who have already told you that Orthodoxy is so complete in its traditions of prayer that you just don't need to look to outside traditions for anything they might offer.  The Chaplet of Divine Mercy may not pose any theological problems to us whatsoever, and if a Catholic wants to pray the prayer, we may encourage them to do so.  But you're not a Roman Catholic.  What spirituality can an RC practice offer you that Orthodoxy hasn't offered already?
 


Hi, this remains a convert issue for me because in my search for the truth, I want to know where God is at work. I am prepared to accept that Orthodoxy is the fullness of the Gospel but does that mean that God does not draw people to himself in other traditions like the RC or my own current Church of the Nazarene? In my view, to say God is NOT at work in them is to say they are all going to hell.  And if God does work in other tradtions, albeit incompletely, than cannot a person, even an Orthodox person, grow through the wording of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, even if the visions are suspect?

I look forward to any comments that might help me.
jim

Well... there is the famous quote from St Theophan the Recluse on the matter: ""You ask, will the heterodox be saved. Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour, Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such concern. Study yourself and your own sins. I will tell you one thing, however, should you being Orthodox, and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." In other words... we do not KNOW for a certainty that the heterodox WILL be saved but we assume that God the Father in His love and mercy will look after this. BUT we can say with assurance that we who are Orthodox and have the fullness of the revelation and the truth had better not be deviating from that truth. In short, for me it means that I am not about to mess around with the devotional practices of heterodox Christians for two reasons: 1) I'm Orthodox and the Orthodox Faith lacks nothing so it's pointless for me to go rooting around in the practices of other Christians and 2) We have no assurances that these devotional practices are "orthodox" in nature. I'm not Protestant... meaning, I do not pick and choose what serves me. The Church provides me with the direction I need. What I see here in this thread and other threads like it is an array of Orthodox believers telling me that they are in a position to do that picking and choosing. What this says to me is that they are still harboring a Protestant mindset. We must seek guidance from the Church (and that is not an online consensus of opinion) meaning our priest and bishop. This is the Orthodox way.
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« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2009, 06:09:25 AM »

Quote

Well... there is the famous quote from St Theophan the Recluse on the matter: ""You ask, will the heterodox be saved. Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour, Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such concern. Study yourself and your own sins. I will tell you one thing, however, should you being Orthodox, and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." In other words... we do not KNOW for a certainty that the heterodox WILL be saved but we assume that God the Father in His love and mercy will look after this. BUT we can say with assurance that we who are Orthodox and have the fullness of the revelation and the truth had better not be deviating from that truth. In short, for me it means that I am not about to mess around with the devotional practices of heterodox Christians for two reasons: 1) I'm Orthodox and the Orthodox Faith lacks nothing so it's pointless for me to go rooting around in the practices of other Christians and 2) We have no assurances that these devotional practices are "orthodox" in nature. I'm not Protestant... meaning, I do not pick and choose what serves me. The Church provides me with the direction I need. What I see here in this thread and other threads like it is an array of Orthodox believers telling me that they are in a position to do that picking and choosing. What this says to me is that they are still harboring a Protestant mindset. We must seek guidance from the Church (and that is not an online consensus of opinion) meaning our priest and bishop. This is the Orthodox way.

As a protestant, and a former fundamentalist, I can relate to this line of reasoning. Fundi's believe that unless you have Jesus as "your personal Lord and Saviour" you will be going to hell.  I am no longer a Fundamentalist and I do believe that all men are saved through Christ BUT I have no idea what God does with everyone else. I guess that is God's business.  I am by no means a universalists but is it not possible that God is working through other "sects" and, if so, can we, without abandoning Orthodoxy, embrace that which is useful and not endanger our souls? Are you so afraid that you would lose "orthodoxy" much like a bible fundamentalist is afraid of "losing his salvation" if engage in anything that is not orthodox in origin yet not unorthodox in it's esence? Cannot God, who desires of the salvation of all mankind, use what ever He wants to?

Douglas, I thank you for your answer. It was thoughtful and, while being a "strong" answer did not come across as disrespectful or arrogant. I only say that because when discussing such issues, some people go overboard.
Peace,
Jim
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2009, 01:49:39 PM »

Douglas, I thank you for your answer. It was thoughtful and, while being a "strong" answer did not come across as disrespectful or arrogant.
I agree.
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2009, 03:34:41 PM »

Mister Jim Dude, welcome to the forum, and I pray for your safe entry into the Church!
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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2009, 05:13:36 PM »

Mister Jim Dude, welcome to the forum, and I pray for your safe entry into the Church!
Here, here!
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« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2009, 02:50:45 AM »

Mister Jim Dude, welcome to the forum, and I pray for your safe entry into the Church!

thank you...and I appreciate your prayers...as you are praying for me, pray for my whole family, who, I believe, are NOT as enthusiastic about Orthodoxy as I seem to be.
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« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2009, 01:12:16 PM »

I can't think of a better or more ancient devotional practice...

A very good choice would be to get a copy of

I'm afraid I'll have to decline as an Orthodox Christian. But I can certainly offer to you and any others a much better way of offering a devotion to our Lord and Savior. It is to pray the Canon of Repentance to our Lord Jesus Christ . This can be found here: http://www.orthodox.cn/liturgical/prayerbook/daily/canonrepentance_en.htm

The canonical hours predates schism. And he said the office is approved for Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2009, 04:24:59 PM »

I would say the prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest.  To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

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This was my understanding as well. I felt uncomfortable about it for this reason when I was a Latin Catholic.

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« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2009, 05:14:46 PM »

It is not us who offers Christ to the Father, it is He who offers Himself (and Him who receives, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit). We offer up ourselves (our hearts) and the gifts of bread and the wine. These become united to Christ's eternal sacrifice; i.e. they are brought together into one.
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« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2009, 12:45:41 AM »

I would say the prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

Mimics the prayer said by the priest when offering the Holy Gifts:

"Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all."

It is not the part of the people to utter this prayer but the priest.  To use a prayer so closely related gives the idea that the people have the power to offer apart from the priest and the Liturgy, which is opposed to Eastern liturgical theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance



This was my understanding as well. I felt uncomfortable about it for this reason when I was a Latin Catholic.

In Christ,
Andrew

I always got the same feeling.
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« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2009, 02:54:42 AM »

My mother is strong believer in the Divine Mercy devotion and tries to spread it around amongst here family and friends.  I have nothing against it and have prayed the chaplet before.  There is an interesting mixture of Eastern and Western prayers and themes contained in the various chaplet prayers (including the Trysigon).  This may be explained by the devotions origination in Poland, which is on the border between Eastern and Western Christianity.
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« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2009, 01:01:40 PM »

My mother is strong believer in the Divine Mercy devotion and tries to spread it around amongst here family and friends.  I have nothing against it and have prayed the chaplet before.  There is an interesting mixture of Eastern and Western prayers and themes contained in the various chaplet prayers (including the Trysigon).  This may be explained by the devotions origination in Poland, which is on the border between Eastern and Western Christianity.
You can imagine my surprise the first time I attended a Byzantine Liturgy several years ago and learned that part of the liturgy came from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.  Grin  Wink (note the "winky face")
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« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2009, 05:39:32 PM »

My mother is strong believer in the Divine Mercy devotion and tries to spread it around amongst here family and friends.  I have nothing against it and have prayed the chaplet before.  There is an interesting mixture of Eastern and Western prayers and themes contained in the various chaplet prayers (including the Trysigon).  This may be explained by the devotions origination in Poland, which is on the border between Eastern and Western Christianity.
You can imagine my surprise the first time I attended a Byzantine Liturgy several years ago and learned that part of the liturgy came from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.  Grin  Wink (note the "winky face")

Sure it wasn't the other way around?
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« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2009, 06:14:33 PM »

Sure it wasn't the other way around?

He spelled it out for you...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #111 on: November 23, 2009, 06:36:46 PM »

Ah ok so he was being sarcastic..sorry i'm a little slow today  Embarrassed
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« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2012, 07:01:32 PM »

I don't think Christ God appreciates all this back stabbing and arguing. It is exactly what the evil one wants us to do. How many inquiorers will convert to Orthodoxy if they saw argument and anger among us? We need to show a sense of unity and a pious, prayerful Christian Church!
May the Lord have mercy on us all!
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« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2012, 07:15:05 PM »

Seeing "nebelpfade" acting as a mod was a nice blast from the past. Come back, Entscheidungsproblem!
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