Author Topic: Do they have the same Liturgy?  (Read 1369 times)

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Offline Papist

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Do they have the same Liturgy?
« on: April 14, 2009, 08:36:05 AM »
Do all the Oriental Orthodox Churches have the same liturgy?
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Offline Marc Hanna

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2009, 08:41:30 AM »
Nope.  Each church might use several different liturgies.  In the Coptic Church we use St Basil's, St Cyril's (which is actually St. Mark's) and St. Gregory's, further, the British Orthodox Church, which is under the Coptic, uses the liturgy of St James.

The Armenian has its own which I've been told is based on St John Chrysostom's.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 08:47:34 AM »
Do all the Oriental Orthodox Churches have the same liturgy?

No, they all have very different liturgical traditions. The Copts have the Liturgy of St. Mark (though it is normally named after St. Cyril, who translated it from Greek into Coptic), the Liturgy of St. Basil, and that of St. Gregory the Theologian. Despite the Greek origins of the last two, they do not correspond to the Constantinopolitan traditions, following instead the Alexandrian rite. The Syrians (this includes the Indians) use the Liturgy of St. James. The Armenian Liturgy is, from what I understand, of Syrian origin, but borrows heavily from the Byzantine and Latin liturgical rites. The Ethiopians have over a dozen liturgies, although I believe they correspond largely to the Alexandrian liturgies of the Copts.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 11:10:17 AM »
Do all the Oriental Orthodox Churches have the same liturgy?

No, they all have very different liturgical traditions. The Copts have the Liturgy of St. Mark (though it is normally named after St. Cyril, who translated it from Greek into Coptic), the Liturgy of St. Basil, and that of St. Gregory the Theologian. Despite the Greek origins of the last two, they do not correspond to the Constantinopolitan traditions, following instead the Alexandrian rite. The Syrians (this includes the Indians) use the Liturgy of St. James. The Armenian Liturgy is, from what I understand, of Syrian origin, but borrows heavily from the Byzantine and Latin liturgical rites. The Ethiopians have over a dozen liturgies, although I believe they correspond largely to the Alexandrian liturgies of the Copts.

One thing to remember: the EO didn't have the same liturgical traditions.  The Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians in Alexandria had the same rites, those in Antioch had their rites.  Balsamon, the "Patriarch of Antioch" (1185-1199) who never set foot in his "patriarchate," but stayed in Constantinople all his life (like an absentee land lord) is the one who suppressed the Antiochian rites among the EO in Syria.  Around the same time the rites of Alexandria also suppressed the Alexandrian rites among the EO.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2009, 03:56:12 PM »
Quote
Ecumenical Patriarch in their rites as in everything else. The Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria even went to live at Constantinople under the shadow of Caesar and of Caesar's Court Bishop. The change of liturgy took place at the end of the twelfth century. Theodore Balsamon says that at that tine a certain Mark, Patriarch of Alexandria, came to Constantinople and there went on celebrating the Liturgy of his own Church. The Byzantines told him that the use of the most holy Ecumenical throne was different, and that the Emperor had already commanded all Orthodox Church throughout the world to follow that of the Imperial city. So Mark apologized for not having known about this law and conformed to the Byzantine use (P.G., CXXXVIII, 954). Since then the Greek Liturgy of St. Mark has no longer been used by anyone. It remains to be seen whether, now that the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem has begun to make some small restoration of her own use (see ANTIOCHENE LITURGY), the very determined and strongly anti-Phanariote prelate who rules the Orthodox Church of Egypt (Lord Photios of Alexandria) will not revive, at any rate for one day in the year, the venerable liturgy of his own see.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01303b.htm


This Pope and Patriarch Mark would III (1180-1209). His successor, Pope Nicholas I, is supposedly the one who finalized the split, some say, with the Vatican (no, it wasn't 1054).
http://books.google.com/books?id=ItEAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=Nicholas+I+of+Alexandria&source=bl&ots=r9EbzRPmQ5&sig=x-R8rq2f0YX3-12OPZr3rCnBXdM&hl=en&ei=1ePkSa-MIarynQfblfGlCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA273,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=ItEAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=Nicholas+I+of+Alexandria&source=bl&ots=r9EbzRPmQ5&sig=x-R8rq2f0YX3-12OPZr3rCnBXdM&hl=en&ei=1ePkSa-MIarynQfblfGlCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpo

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 04:30:10 PM »
Variety of different liturgies is one thing I admire in Oriental Orthodoxy. Sometimes I even wonder that if the EO Church is the one and only Catholic and Apostolic Church how is it possible that she has lost quite notable part of her tradition i.e. non-byzantine liturgies. I hope that one day the (EO) Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria will be reviving their original rites in the same way that Western rites has been revived in the West.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 04:45:07 PM by Alpo »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 05:02:55 PM »
Variety of different liturgies is one thing I admire in Oriental Orthodoxy. Sometimes I even wonder that if the EO Church is the one and only Catholic and Apostolic Church how is it possible that she has lost quite notable part of her tradition i.e. non-byzantine liturgies. I hope that one day the (EO) Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria will be reviving their original rites in the same way that Western rites has been revived in the West.

In hindsight, the standardization/homogenization of the Liturgies benefited the EO during the persecution/occupations.  However, neither variety nor uniformity are a good barometers when it comes to authenticity of the claim to Catholicity or Apostolicity.  As long as the Liturgies are theologically sound (as the Liturgies of Basil, John, Gregory, Mark, and James/Iakovos are), then their use, either exclusively or in multiplicity is an indication of soundness.
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Offline HaileAmanuel

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Re: Do they have the same Liturgy?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 10:00:31 PM »
Selam everyone!

I hope that the Holy Week is a blessing for everyone.  I just wanted to post quickly about the Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox Tewahido Liturgies.

I think that the following link explains a tremendous amount very well.

http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/church/divineliturgydoc.html

May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with everyone...

Peace,

haileamanuel
'He who is greatest among you, will be your servant [St. Matthew 23:11].'