OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 30, 2014, 07:51:45 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Moscow states Opposition to Concept of a Head Bishop for the Global Church  (Read 2589 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: April 12, 2009, 04:52:08 PM »


From Interfax:

Moscow Patriarchate disagrees with Constantinople desire to play special role in Orthodoxy

MOSCOW (April 10) — Bishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk, the head of the Moscow Patriarchate’s external church relations department, has criticized the Constantinople Patriarchate’s intention to control all church communities within the Orthodox diaspora.

“I see the situation in the inter-Orthodox relations surrounding the Constantinople Patriarchate’s claim to have some special role in the Orthodox Church as one of the key challenges today,” Bishop Hilarion said at a press conference at the Interfax main office in Moscow on Friday.

“What is happening is in fact an attempt to impose a model existing in the Catholic Church on the Orthodox Church to have as centralized church power as possible, with one bishop leading it as the head of the Ecumenical Church,” he said.

“There has never been such a model in the Orthodox tradition,” Bishop Hilarion said. He doubted that “we are entitled to revise our teaching about the Church.”

The leading hierarchs of the Constantinople Patriarchate are calling for revising the principle of primacy in the Orthodox world, Bishop Hilarion said. This model presumes that the Constantinople Patriarchate “should administer all the churches within the so-called diaspora,” that is, that all the communities outside the borders of the historical canonic national churches should be within Constantinople’s jurisdiction, he said.

Bishop Hilarion said this issue will be discussed at an inter-Orthodox conference in June.

Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2009, 05:29:58 PM »

I would imagine he rejects the Third Rome theory as well then.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2009, 05:37:55 PM »

I would imagine he rejects the Third Rome theory as well then.

I would imagine so.  Under the deceased Patriarch Alexey the Third Rome theory was treated as an object of banter.  I imagine that Patriarch Kirill would have the same mildly amused attitude.


Of course, there IS the matter of <trumpets> The White Cowl which Constantine gave to Pope Sylvester as a sign of his global ecclesiastical authority.   It was then given to Constantinople and then Patriarch Jeremias sent it to Russia at the time of the Islamic threat, symbolically entrusting the global primacy to the Russian Church.  Yes, we must not forget <trumpets> The White Cowl!
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2009, 06:21:12 PM »

I would imagine he rejects the Third Rome theory as well then.

Why?

The Third Rome has fallen, but she is getting up.


From Interfax:

Moscow Patriarchate disagrees with Constantinople desire to play special role in Orthodoxy

MOSCOW (April 10) — Bishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk, the head of the Moscow Patriarchate’s external church relations department, has criticized the Constantinople Patriarchate’s intention to control all church communities within the Orthodox diaspora.

“I see the situation in the inter-Orthodox relations surrounding the Constantinople Patriarchate’s claim to have some special role in the Orthodox Church as one of the key challenges today,” Bishop Hilarion said at a press conference at the Interfax main office in Moscow on Friday.

“What is happening is in fact an attempt to impose a model existing in the Catholic Church on the Orthodox Church to have as centralized church power as possible, with one bishop leading it as the head of the Ecumenical Church,” he said.

“There has never been such a model in the Orthodox tradition,” Bishop Hilarion said. He doubted that “we are entitled to revise our teaching about the Church.”

The leading hierarchs of the Constantinople Patriarchate are calling for revising the principle of primacy in the Orthodox world, Bishop Hilarion said. This model presumes that the Constantinople Patriarchate “should administer all the churches within the so-called diaspora,” that is, that all the communities outside the borders of the historical canonic national churches should be within Constantinople’s jurisdiction, he said.

Bishop Hilarion said this issue will be discussed at an inter-Orthodox conference in June.



It would seem the Met. Jonah are Patriarch Kyrill are one on these matters.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 06:22:29 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2009, 08:09:26 PM »

I would imagine he rejects the Third Rome theory as well then.

Why?

The Third Rome has fallen, but she is getting up.

Don't worry, unless they come around to our way of thinking the west will knock them on their butts again.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2009, 08:16:09 PM »

"Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?"

Idiots...
Logged

Love never fails.
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2009, 08:27:23 PM »

Why?

Any "Rome" theory posits a place of special preeminence across the church as a whole.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:27:41 PM by AMM » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »

"Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?"

Well, if (God forbid) someone *is* conspiring to be El Supremo Episcopo in Orthodoxy we hope that the plot will be dealt with at the upcoming pan-Orthodox Synods.

Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,095


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2009, 08:38:35 PM »

I fail to see how "EP claims 'diaspora' as canonical territory" = "Head Bishop for Global Church."  I think this one should get filed under "Primacy" /= "Universal Primacy."
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2009, 08:45:56 PM »

"Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?"

Well, if (God forbid) someone *is* conspiring to be El Supremo Episcopo in Orthodoxy we hope that the plot will be dealt with at the upcoming pan-Orthodox Synods.



The nations (humans) are ALWAYS conspiring, that's our nature, our "paleon anthropon" (Eph. 4:22), something in us that requires a fight to death for supremacy, canonicity, territories, "Third Rome," "the only True Orthodoxy," whatever...
Logged

Love never fails.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2009, 08:48:44 PM »

I fail to see how "EP claims 'diaspora' as canonical territory" = "Head Bishop for Global Church."  I think this one should get filed under "Primacy" /= "Universal Primacy."

While the diaspora is important it is not the main thrust of the Moscow statement.

The focus of the statement is much more broad and focuses on "an attempt to impose a model [..of] centralized church power as possible, with one bishop leading it as the head of the Ecumenical Church."

The focus of the statment and the title of this thread match up.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:52:38 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2009, 09:26:16 PM »

I wonder what Met. Hilarion would say IS the right way to approach the "so called" diaspora. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2009, 09:47:59 PM »

I wonder what Met. Hilarion would say IS the right way to approach the "so called" diaspora. 

If we look at the track record of Moscow's dealings with its American diaspora, the picture is very encouraging.

It gave autocephaly to the OCA.  It gave self-governing status to the Russian Church Abroad.

In both cases it has treated its "children" wisely and with acknowledgement of their maturity.

By way of contrast Constantinople and Damascus have really messed around with their American children.  They impose Constitutions and then they act in contradiction to them or they revoke them.   They grant one status to the bishops one week and then next year they alter their status.    There is not much stability.

All in all, the available data suggests that Moscow would create a better solution for the diaspora than either Constantinople or Damascus.

Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,725


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2009, 09:52:51 PM »

If we look at the track record of Moscow's dealings with its American diaspora, the picture is very encouraging.

It gave autocephaly to the OCA.  It gave self-governing status to the Russian Church Abroad.

In both cases it has treated its "children" wisely and with acknowledgement of their maturity.
Looking at the OCA's track record since 1970, though, I'd say that Moscow giving the OCA autocephaly when she did was foolishly premature.  The OCA showed quite clearly that she was not mature enough to be left to rule her own affairs.
Logged
buzu
Moderated
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: greek
Posts: 16


« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2009, 10:08:54 PM »

I agree with you Hermit. Russia has even granted autonomy to the churches of Japan and China, the latter has seen Constantinople trying to usurp this ancient church by placing his puppet the metropolitan of Hong Kong.

Outside of the typical jurisdictional mess in america, theres another mini juridictional mess amongst the ever- growing number of random jurisdictions of america held by the EP. These parishes have their own bishop and are a completely different set of heirarchs not related to the GOA synod in anyway.    
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2009, 10:24:51 PM »



Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2009, 10:25:21 PM »

buzu, are you buzuxi?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
buzu
Moderated
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: greek
Posts: 16


« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2009, 10:27:03 PM »

yep
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2009, 10:31:39 PM »

yep

Please read the first rule under "General Rules", copy it, and paste it in this thread.
You will find the forum rules here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2009, 10:37:05 PM »

Buzu, I fished out your response to my question from the recycling bin and have locked this topic so you can't alter your response.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Tags: EP Bashing 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.076 seconds with 46 queries.