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Author Topic: Say what?  (Read 1718 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seraphim Reeves
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« on: October 24, 2003, 11:13:22 AM »

Keble,

(in reply to this post)

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Well, I'm not going to make any attempt whatsoever to defend Spong; I excommunicated him a decade ago at least.

You excommunicated him?  Odd, your church didn't.  I didn't know you were an episcopalian bishop...

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And as for the Rt. Rev. Catherine Waynick: she's irrelevant here. There's no era in which an Anglican church would support what you're planning to do. The Episcopal Church even has a bishop for the Armed Forces chaplaincies, and other chaplaincies are under ordinary bishops.

To be blunt:you're trying to evade the point. Loose canon bishops and female clergy aren't going to distract from the historical reality that the apostolic standard for Christian life is within a community in which there is weekly worship, preferably Eucharistic worship. The notion of a sort of instant anchorite life is not something for a catechumen to be diving into. That is the actual tradition; accept no schismatic substitutes.

Well, I bring up your "church's" heterodoxy, because I find virtually everything you write to be nauseatingly hypocritical.  For you to refer to anything as a "schism" is an absurdity - there would be no "episcopalian church" were it not for King Henry's lust/avarice, and the later desire of American Anglicans to not be too closely associated with the head of their "church" (to this day, the reigning monarch in England is the official head of the Anglican church).  A schism of the papal schism - who are you to sermonize anyone?

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You can complain all you want about Cate Waynick's gender, but one thing she is not is vagante. The diocese over which she has been placed is duly consituted within the Episcopal Church, and her election and consecration were according to the church's constitution and canons.

This is like speaking of a "canonically ordained mule".  You seem oblivious to the profoundly contra-apostolic character of your schism.

As for the appropriatness of learning from a distance, due to necessity, and making due (for the time being) with regular visits of Priests (or even Bishop Gregory) up into Canada, and doing a Reader's Service for the time being...I don't see how this can be pooh-poohed by anyone, when the choice is "remain in sin" or "be a baptized Christian".  There is no choice in such a situation.

I find it inredible that you actually think alienation from the Church is a viable option.  We're not talking about a social committment here, but the the indwelling of the grace of God!  This is the difference between being a member of Christ, and looking in from afar.  Your whole tone on this subject smacks of a casual attitude towards the salvation of souls - while not an unexpected attitude for a heretic to hold, I don't "get" how you don't see why such a view is utterly inadmissable in an Orthodox paradigm.

The prayers in the Holy Spirit of even a solitary believer, have more objective value (for they occur in Christ) than any number of schismatical/heretical services, or pretended worship.  I desire this incredible gift, while recognizing my complete unworthiness to receive it.

Seraphim
« Last Edit: October 24, 2003, 11:17:18 AM by Seraphim Reeves » Logged

Elisha
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2003, 01:16:38 PM »

:yawn  I guess we should just follow 'holier-than-thou' Seraphim to ROAC then.   Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: October 24, 2003, 01:17:04 PM by Elisha » Logged
Keble
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2003, 02:38:22 PM »

Excommunication by laymen is patristic, Mr. Reeves.

And slurs-- or even accurate accusations-- against Anglicanism aren't going to improve the wrongness of your situation.

And here's another problem with ROAC: if I remember correctly, they're supposed to be in communion with some Old Calendarist groups. Those groups are anti-Nikonian, yet ROAC comes from ROCOR, and ROCOR comes from the Nikonian Russian church. Hence ROAC should be, according to these groups, invalid. So there's something else wrong here; either they aren't really in communion with these other groups, or someone is coloring outside the lines of Orthodox polity.

All your high-minded talk about your situation isn't going to make ROAC's problems go away. It means nothing to talk about the choice between long distance or heresy when the issue of this groups own legitimacy lies heavily against it. And really, you are simply trading one form of alienation from the church for another; you are trading organizational alienation for communal alienation.
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ania
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2003, 02:48:14 PM »

I thought this topic (My Take on ROAC) was closed out by Anastasios...  this rose under a different name still stinks... (obscure Shakespeare reference, i'm in a dramatic mood today)...
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
Anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2003, 05:11:33 PM »

I will close this topic at midnight.  Say what you have to say before then.

anastasios
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I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Keble
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2003, 05:44:44 PM »

I was about to say, "Anastasios, you might as well close it now," but something caught my eye:


The prayers in the Holy Spirit of even a solitary believer, have more objective value (for they occur in Christ) than any number of schismatical/heretical services, or pretended worship.

The phrase "pretend worship" seems to me to be malicious (since after all you have to be aware that even if our worship is wrong-headed, we do not pretend to do it, but do it for real). But it's the whole sentence that cries out for comment.

By your own reckoning, your prayers have the same value as any schismatic/heretical services. After all, you say that you are outside the church, just as you say that I am. So what's the point of your prayers? Oh, and isn't it God who assigns worth to prayers?
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2003, 06:15:14 PM »

I shall not comment on anything in this thread as it is well known what my position is.

However, a gross error in fact needs to be corrected.  Keble, Old Calandrists do not equal Old Believers.

Old Calandrists:  do use the Nikonian Reforms in Liturgy but do not use the blasphemous and heretical "revised julian calanader."  Some examples are ROCOR, ROAC, GOC, TOC, etc.

Old Believers:  reject the Nikonian reforms.  Are in schism from the Church.  Some do not have Priests.  However some have had "priests" restored to them.  ROCOR has some Old Believers in communion with it as does the MP.  ROAC does not, as far as I am aware.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2003, 06:53:10 PM »

Joe, gimme a break: the "Revised Julian Calendar" is *NOT* heretical.  Do you even know what heresy is?  And the ROCOR formerly included whole parishes on the Revised Julian Calendar within its ranks.  It was a non-issue.  Certainly *NOT* a heresy (except for those who worship calendars, perhaps).

Hypo-Ortho
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Keble
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2003, 07:03:39 PM »

I'll tentatively accept the distinction being made between Old Calendarists and Old Believers, but calling a calendar "blasphemous" is somewhere beyond excessive. Is it possible to communicate without overstatement?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2003, 07:04:37 PM by Keble » Logged
katherine 2001
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2003, 07:06:21 PM »

I honestly don't believe that come Judgment Day, we are going to be asked which calendar we were on.  I have a feeling that God will be asking much tougher questions than that.  He is going to be much more interested in whether we loved our neighbor and especially our worst enemies.   He's going to want to know whether we handled persecution or hurting behaviors by others with love or whether we got angry and paid them back by returning evil for evil.  

Also, we can't say where the Holy Spirit is not.  The fact is that some people in other churches may be doing much more with the truth that they have than some of us who are Orthodox.  I have a feeling that may be one of the acid tests.  What are you doing with what you have.  Are you loving people like Christ did?  Are you actually living what you've been taught?  You might want to be careful about saying that God doesn't hear their prayers or that they are not as effective.   For me, personally, if I thought God heard my prayers more than He hears other people's, I think I would feel compelled to confess pride at my next confession.  But that is just me.  Of course, my priest hears me confess that at just about every confession.  God is showing me more and more how much pride I have.
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2003, 09:51:40 PM »

My position on the calander is known.  I will not attempt to defend it as it is likely just to lead to a waste of electorns and a cluttering of Anastasios's board.  IF anyone here is truly interested in why the Calander is NOT just a question of 13 days, there is an extensive thread on this in the praxis section of Nik's board.

Joe Zollars
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sinjinsmythe
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2003, 12:18:08 AM »

Why is Orthodoxy so maligned with bickering? That is all this church is, a place to complain and claim to be "the truest of the true" Orthodox. There are more important spiritual problems being faced by people everyday.
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NDHoosier
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2003, 01:17:42 AM »

I just had to get in a comment before Anastasios locks the thread.

(Insert Generic Hot-Button Comment Here)

OK, I'm done - go ahead and lock the thread!

P.S. Old Calendar Forever!  (or rather, until the Parousia)
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