Author Topic: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?  (Read 3364 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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I just had an idea a while ago, and of course, this is just a passing thought not a well thought out plan/idea.

But what if we tried rehabilitating some of our criminals by sending some (some, however, you could argue, shouldn't be sent) to monasteries (men/women in Orthodoxy of course) and convents, as well as other religious communities like the Amish and Mennonites.

Also, why not try to make some jails more self-sufficient and self-sustaining?

Offline Veniamin

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Monastic life doesn't suit many of those who voluntarily choose it, which is the purpose of a novitiate.  How is forcing people into it supposed to do them any good, especially when it may lead to a rejection of the faith which is being used as an instrument of their punishment?
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Offline 88Devin12

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I'm not thinking of it so much in terms of forcing... It could be an alternative to keeping the prisoners in the jail 24/7.
Also, it isn't punishment, it's rehabilitation. The two are very different. I believe that most humans can be rehabilitated, but there are some who are out to destroy themselves and it's hard if not impossible to rehabilitate them. Yet like I said, I believe most can be rehabilitated.

It does very little for putting someone in a jail and leaving them there until their sentence is over, much of the time, it's just teaching them more ways to kill. Same for sending them to the military, many aren't loyal to the country, therefore they just learn how to kill so they can use it when they are free again.

Allowing them to go to a monastery or a religious community would not teach them more violence (rather love and cooperation and self-sufficiency), but would help them improve themselves.

Also, by monastery I'm talking about Orthodox, Catholic, other Christian, Buddhist, Hindu etc...

Offline LakaYaRabb

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I agree with Veniamin. However, I can see your point.

Funny I should see this post because I am headed to the monastery near where I live in Florence, Arizona. Florence is known for two things: the largest Arizona State Prison complex, the Florence complex and the Athonite Monastery of St. Anthony the Great.

Offline Veniamin

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I'm not thinking of it so much in terms of forcing... It could be an alternative to keeping the prisoners in the jail 24/7.
Also, it isn't punishment, it's rehabilitation. The two are very different. I believe that most humans can be rehabilitated, but there are some who are out to destroy themselves and it's hard if not impossible to rehabilitate them. Yet like I said, I believe most can be rehabilitated.

It's about rehabilitation, eh?  Try asking one of those prisoners why they're there; I doubt you'll hear the word rehabilitation from their lips.  Their reaction to the "rehabilitation" doesn't depend on what we call it; it depends on their perception of it and how they react to that perception.  If they think it's punishment, they're going to act like the monastery or whatever is part of their punishment.

As for this whole "teaching them more ways to kill," do you actually know anything about the criminal justice system or are you just assuming your preconceptions are correct?  The majority of prisoners aren't in prison for violent crimes.  The majority of those in prison for violent crimes didn't learn those skills in prison; they learned them in street gangs.  People don't go into jail for a DWI and come out hardened killers; they go in already having that disposition and come out largely unchanged.
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Offline Rosehip

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Some evangelical groups have special rehabilitation centres for such people. They are staffed often by volunteer counselors and other volunteer workers. They often provide work for those undertaking treatment-carpentry, etc.

Our parish was visited a couple years ago by some sisters from a monastery in Belarus. If I remember correctly, they cared for many such down-and-out men, providing work for them and spiritual refuge. It was a great mission, from what I could tell.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 02:29:48 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline Rosehip

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 02:29:29 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline 88Devin12

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I'm not claiming to be an expert on the criminal justice system. What I know comes from research on crime and inner city life in Kansas City, research and documentaries on gangs as well as the one Sociology class I've taken. I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm def. not ignorant of everything about it.

Yes prisoners would see it as punishment, but that is how our whole system is geared. It isn't really geared towards rehabilitation or social engineering/change (sorry, i know it sounds bad, but there isn't really a better term i can think of).

Offline username!

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I just had an idea a while ago, and of course, this is just a passing thought not a well thought out plan/idea.

But what if we tried rehabilitating some of our criminals by sending some (some, however, you could argue, shouldn't be sent) to monasteries (men/women in Orthodoxy of course) and convents, as well as other religious communities like the Amish and Mennonites.

Also, why not try to make some jails more self-sufficient and self-sustaining?

It may have worked on Sistern Act and Sister Act 2 but in real life monasteries and convents are not havens for criminals. 

Offline Myrrh23

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I just had an idea a while ago, and of course, this is just a passing thought not a well thought out plan/idea.

But what if we tried rehabilitating some of our criminals by sending some (some, however, you could argue, shouldn't be sent) to monasteries (men/women in Orthodoxy of course) and convents, as well as other religious communities like the Amish and Mennonites.

Also, why not try to make some jails more self-sufficient and self-sustaining?

It may have worked on Sistern Act and Sister Act 2 but in real life monasteries and convents are not havens for criminals. 

I agree with Username. Aren't monasteries and convents places to get away from the world and its problems?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2009, 02:56:13 PM »
From what i've heard of the stories of the Saints, there are so many instances of criminals going to monasteries (often to rob them, sometimes to hide) and eventually being rehabilitated and having their lives changed. Often, the Saints would help the people pursuing the criminals cease their journey for vengeance and allow the pursuers to forgive the criminal.

I would argue that monastics aren't there to keep away from everyone in the outside world. They don't exist apart from the world. (that is, physically and socially) They exist to pray for it and help change it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 02:58:49 PM by 88Devin12 »

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2009, 04:06:00 PM »
I'm not thinking of it so much in terms of forcing... It could be an alternative to keeping the prisoners in the jail 24/7.
Also, it isn't punishment, it's rehabilitation. The two are very different. I believe that most humans can be rehabilitated, but there are some who are out to destroy themselves and it's hard if not impossible to rehabilitate them. Yet like I said, I believe most can be rehabilitated.

It's about rehabilitation, eh?  Try asking one of those prisoners why they're there; I doubt you'll hear the word rehabilitation from their lips.  Their reaction to the "rehabilitation" doesn't depend on what we call it; it depends on their perception of it and how they react to that perception.  If they think it's punishment, they're going to act like the monastery or whatever is part of their punishment.

As for this whole "teaching them more ways to kill," do you actually know anything about the criminal justice system or are you just assuming your preconceptions are correct?  The majority of prisoners aren't in prison for violent crimes.  The majority of those in prison for violent crimes didn't learn those skills in prison; they learned them in street gangs.  People don't go into jail for a DWI and come out hardened killers; they go in already having that disposition and come out largely unchanged.

I'm afraid that doesn't match my experience.  A lot of them get sucked into the cycle of violence because they have to join a gang to get by (at least in Cook County).  I got a pass simply because everyone decided I didn't belong there, but a lot of my needs, like a blanket, got supplied through my "cellie's" gang connections.  It was quite depressing, as they saw jail as just a part of normal fact of life, and resigned themselves to it.

The guy from whom I borrowed a Bible when I first got in was facing 5 years for being in the wrong place with the wrong person: his cousin decided to steal a T.V. while they were moving.  That was 5 years.  He just had a baby two months when he was arrested.  I think he was there 8 moths awaiting trial when I got there.  He had a prayer rope with a cross, and I asked him how he got it in: he had brushed the lint off the blanket he had, spun it, and made the thing himself.

I taught some Arabic and history when I was there, by request of a couple of inmates.  When I left, one inmate asked me if I would leave my Orthodox Study Bible, which he had been constantly borrowing, since he knew that once his trial got underway he knew that he was going downstate.  I had already planned on leaving it, and left a copy of "War and Peace" with one inmate (in for a drug charge), and "Anna Karenina" with another.
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2009, 04:19:03 PM »
ialmisry,
Have posted about this experience before?  I didn't know you were in jail.  Do you mind providing more info/history?  Thanks.

I believe there are a lot of society's "problems" from what I've heard in Russian monasteries with it probably being more of a bad thing than a good thing.  There are criminals, mentally ill, etc from what I've heard, just because "there isn't anywhere else for them" so to speak.

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2009, 05:39:16 PM »
ialmisry,
Have posted about this experience before?
I mentioned it, but not made a specific posting about it.  Right after getting out, I was too busy taking care of my kids over the trauma etc..
Quote
  I didn't know you were in jail.  Do you mind providing more info/history?  Thanks.

No, I don't mind, if people are interested.

Quote
I believe there are a lot of society's "problems" from what I've heard in Russian monasteries with it probably being more of a bad thing than a good thing.  There are criminals, mentally ill, etc from what I've heard, just because "there isn't anywhere else for them" so to speak.
The real sad part is the fact that they grow up just expecting to spend time in jail the same way I grew up just expecting to go to college.  One of the inmates told me "teach (my nickname), you know why they threw you in here, don't you?  They looked around and said we got too many n-----s in here, so we better throw a white guy in so no one gets suspicious."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2009, 06:51:19 PM »
No, I don't mind, if people are interested.
Well I certainly am interested, but only if you feel comfortable doing so. I didn't know about this before, so I must have missed the posts where you mentioned it.
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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2009, 07:05:20 PM »
I dunno, in Byzantine times it was not uncommon to send to monasteries political enemies and other people that those in authority wanted taken away from society...

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2009, 08:10:03 PM »
No, I don't mind, if people are interested.
Well I certainly am interested, but only if you feel comfortable doing so.
Quite comfortable, I could talk about why so too.  I don't know if that would be derailing this thread though.

Quote
I didn't know about this before, so I must have missed the posts where you mentioned it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2009, 08:22:21 PM »
No, I don't mind, if people are interested.
Well I certainly am interested, but only if you feel comfortable doing so.
Quite comfortable, I could talk about why so too.  I don't know if that would be derailing this thread though.

Quote
I didn't know about this before, so I must have missed the posts where you mentioned it.

So long as you can tie it in to the topic somehow, I have no objection (and that is my professional, moderatorial opinion).
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2009, 09:26:46 PM »
Quote
  I didn't know you were in jail.  Do you mind providing more info/history?  Thanks.

No, I don't mind, if people are interested.

I remember you mentioning it, and would be interested in hearing about your experiences. I guess in keeping with the context of the thread it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as to what are the chances that anyone would take a "stint in a monastery" as an option to "time in gaol".
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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2009, 12:06:09 AM »
No, I don't mind, if people are interested.
Well I certainly am interested, but only if you feel comfortable doing so.
Quite comfortable, I could talk about why so too.  I don't know if that would be derailing this thread though.

Quote
I didn't know about this before, so I must have missed the posts where you mentioned it.

So long as you can tie it in to the topic somehow, I have no objection (and that is my professional, moderatorial opinion).

Quote
  I didn't know you were in jail.  Do you mind providing more info/history?  Thanks.

No, I don't mind, if people are interested.

I remember you mentioning it, and would be interested in hearing about your experiences. I guess in keeping with the context of the thread it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as to what are the chances that anyone would take a "stint in a monastery" as an option to "time in gaol".

LOL. Actually I spent time in "jail."

Maybe I should describe that fine institution:Cook County Jail is the world's largest jail, which does no good because it has one of the biggest (if not the biggest) single site population in the world.  That is why it caught the attention of Fitzgerald, and he sent a scathing, threatening letter (93 pages I believe) to the cabal who run Cook County last July, while I was there (it was interesting to see the response).

To start, I have to say that in the decade of teaching, I have never seen such respect to the teaching profession as I saw in jail.   While I was there everyone at first thought I was a lawyer.  Except three people: one thought I was a judge, and another an accountant.  They found out I was a teacher because I opened my mouth to correct them.

After I was there 2 weeks, one of the guards saw me, "in uniform" and a couple days beard (you don't get the opportunity to shave unless it is a day court is open, and you get one of the razors to shave (inmates sharpen plastic cards and other things to shave with), and said "are you a professor or teacher or something?"  He was the only one to guess correctly.

When I was being processed for the holding cell at court, when the guards asked me what I did, and I said "teacher," they looked in stoney horror at each other, not saying a word. They had "my God, he doesn't stand a chance" written all over their faces.  But the preferential treatment from the inmates started from the very beginning.  When I got shipped into holding at the jail (small room with at least a hundred standing in it, not much ventilation to speak of) someone tapped me on the shoulder.  When I looked behind, there were some guys on the bench who had moved aside and they said "teach, you sit here."

When we got in line to start processing for uniforms, someone in front of the line said something to me calling me "teach."  When a couple of guys behind me heard that, they asked "are you a teacher?" with shock and awe.  Someone else in line answered for me: "yeah, he's a teacher," and then, leaning out of the line and waving down towards its end said "so you all better show some re-SPECT!"

Standing out I had worried about (I had always thought of incarceration as only a matter of time).  I had worked a summer at Walmart at night to try to make ends meet.  The Americans all felt some sort of distance from me, that the job was beneath me, and I shouldn't be associating with such people (I got some of that in prison.  "Why would you want to be with us hooligans?").  I got along mostly with the Bosnians because they were mostly in the same situation, and spoke limited English like I spoke limited Serbian, so they didn't feel such a distance. So I knew that fitting in for me was going to be a problem not of my making.  I had figured that standing out would get you marked, and I figured that in prison that could get you dead.

There is a lot in prison of one wrong look, touch, etc. being able to set off a whole chain reaction. But a lot of that is because of the posturing that gangs require.  It's almost like Kapu.  X can't sit on Y's bed talking to Z because X, Y, and Z don't belong to the same gang so X can't sit along on Z's bed (though he can talk with him, play cards, etc.) and can't sit on Y's bed.  Those not in gangs, the "neutrons" can do some things without getting in trouble.  I wasn't even a neutron because the lattitude I got was far beyond what they did.  Once, getting in line for breakfast (2:30 AM, I did not eat the entire time I was there, on a hunger strike, which was an amazement to the inmates.  I did get the food to give away) I stood in the wrong place.  Someone muttered under his breath "NOT here, THERE!"  A recent gang arrival looked me up and down and said "they must really like you not to F---- you up!" at which point a gang member there for a while said "oh don't you worry Teach, we AAALLL watchin' yo' back!"

So, as far as monastic disciple.  Yeah I can see them having it.

to be cont....
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 12:12:16 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2009, 12:46:53 AM »

LOL. Actually I spent time in "jail."

Ah yes. American..... *English*  ;)

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 12:47:30 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Rehabilitating criminals - Monasteries, Convents and Religious Communities?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2009, 12:25:36 PM »
Did you keep in contact with any of the inmates, Ial? Did you do any teaching while you were there? :)
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Offline Seraphim98

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One idea the Russians had, I think has promise for certain kinds of inmates, internal exile. Think big gated small county sized communities (with the gates on the outside), or even a decent sized island. Inside the law is enforced strictly, order is kept, but those that live there have small homes, jobs, start businessess, can go to the store, to church, to school, etc. What they can't do is leave that zone until their time is up (if that ever comes). This seems better to me than just keeping people in cages like animals indefinately. Some may leave little choice, and those who would be predators would have to be excluded.  It would also provide a more humane way of handling those whose type of criminality makes them dangerous to return to society, or for whom return would be dangerous.  For example what if a notorious child molester who had little hope of recovery had done his/her time and was to be released. Because of certain laws most places he/she would be an absolute pariah, no community would want him/her, because of monitoring constraints even things as routine as going shopping for groceries or clothes becomes unduely difficult because it could put them in the path of kids or of vengeful parents.  A place to live in internal exile might be very welcome to such persons.  Who knows, maybe even old Charlie Manson might mellow out if he had a quarter acre to garden. Or say Bernie Madoff. He will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but he is not a dangerous man, why keep him in a cage. A place where he could live simply but excluded from the larger society strikes me as a better solution long term.

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Did you keep in contact with any of the inmates, Ial? Did you do any teaching while you were there? :)

I've been looking for this thread.

I did try to keep in contact with a couple.   One in particular I have spoken with his aunt a number of times, because the court system still hasn't gotten around to disposing of his case.  I tried to locate one (he had a new born when he went in, and had been there for 8 months) but I seem to have copied the address down incorrectly.  Another I didn't want to keep in touch, as he was one of the few (actually, the only) who thought a technicality made him innocent in reality (all the inmates confessed quite openly that they were guilty, and that they were "stupid" for getting themselves in trouble).  He was rather needy, and belligerent.  I did pull up a pile of case law that dealt with his type of case, and sent it to him.

A lot of people don't go by their real name, and so of don't want to mix life on the inside with life outside, except for their gang brothers.


Actually, yes.  I did do some teaching.  A number of inmates wanted to be taught some history, and lot to learn some Arabic.   A lot asked me about what I was reading (I read "War and Peace" while in and a number of other things) and we would get into discussions about it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Myrrh23

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One idea the Russians had, I think has promise for certain kinds of inmates, internal exile. Think big gated small county sized communities (with the gates on the outside), or even a decent sized island. Inside the law is enforced strictly, order is kept, but those that live there have small homes, jobs, start businessess, can go to the store, to church, to school, etc. What they can't do is leave that zone until their time is up (if that ever comes). This seems better to me than just keeping people in cages like animals indefinately. Some may leave little choice, and those who would be predators would have to be excluded.  It would also provide a more humane way of handling those whose type of criminality makes them dangerous to return to society, or for whom return would be dangerous.  For example what if a notorious child molester who had little hope of recovery had done his/her time and was to be released. Because of certain laws most places he/she would be an absolute pariah, no community would want him/her, because of monitoring constraints even things as routine as going shopping for groceries or clothes becomes unduely difficult because it could put them in the path of kids or of vengeful parents.  A place to live in internal exile might be very welcome to such persons.  Who knows, maybe even old Charlie Manson might mellow out if he had a quarter acre to garden. Or say Bernie Madoff. He will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but he is not a dangerous man, why keep him in a cage. A place where he could live simply but excluded from the larger society strikes me as a better solution long term.

Seraphim, what's to stop those living apart from having families themselves around the kiddie-rapers? Jail IS an exclusion from the rest of society, but I feel it is used too liberally. Some people in jail can be rehabilitated without jail, but kiddie-rapers need to be put in a cage, because you cannot rehabilitate them. Just check out the re-offending rate. It's a mental ingraining.

If you put kiddie-rapers in a community with each other, they get off by swapping stories of what they've done and discussing what they like to do. They need to be kept by themselves because they're predators. I don't see any kiddie-raper being sorry that they're a social pariah other than the fact that it prevents them from doing what predators do. For those kinds of people, I feel we need to lock them up and throw away the key.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 01:38:13 PM by Myrrh23 »
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Offline Seraphim98

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Ok...so lets say you can't rehabilitate them, or at least the odds are heavily against it.  What is to become of them when they have served their sentence? What is so great or good about keeping them in a cage? If they are kept away from society at large, their rehabilitation becomes a non-issue, there is no one for them to act out on/with. In an internal exile situation at least they have a chance to lead productive lives, or at least a more meaningful life.

There can be a variety of internal exile situations and some don't have to allow family living.  Remember the movie Pappion about the French penal colony, which was pretty brutal...but at the end the old prisoners, had a little island with cottages and a garden and regular resupply.  It's still a little rugged for my tastes, but still it was a much more humane way to keep prisoners than the hell hole they were in before?

Offline GiC

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One idea the Russians had, I think has promise for certain kinds of inmates, internal exile. Think big gated small county sized communities (with the gates on the outside), or even a decent sized island. Inside the law is enforced strictly, order is kept, but those that live there have small homes, jobs, start businessess, can go to the store, to church, to school, etc. What they can't do is leave that zone until their time is up (if that ever comes). This seems better to me than just keeping people in cages like animals indefinately. Some may leave little choice, and those who would be predators would have to be excluded.  It would also provide a more humane way of handling those whose type of criminality makes them dangerous to return to society, or for whom return would be dangerous.  For example what if a notorious child molester who had little hope of recovery had done his/her time and was to be released. Because of certain laws most places he/she would be an absolute pariah, no community would want him/her, because of monitoring constraints even things as routine as going shopping for groceries or clothes becomes unduely difficult because it could put them in the path of kids or of vengeful parents.  A place to live in internal exile might be very welcome to such persons.  Who knows, maybe even old Charlie Manson might mellow out if he had a quarter acre to garden. Or say Bernie Madoff. He will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but he is not a dangerous man, why keep him in a cage. A place where he could live simply but excluded from the larger society strikes me as a better solution long term.

Seraphim, what's to stop those living apart from having families themselves around the kiddie-rapers? Jail IS an exclusion from the rest of society, but I feel it is used too liberally. Some people in jail can be rehabilitated without jail, but kiddie-rapers need to be put in a cage, because you cannot rehabilitate them. Just check out the re-offending rate. It's a mental ingraining.

If you put kiddie-rapers in a community with each other, they get off by swapping stories of what they've done and discussing what they like to do. They need to be kept by themselves because they're predators. I don't see any kiddie-raper being sorry that they're a social pariah other than the fact that it prevents them from doing what predators do. For those kinds of people, I feel we need to lock them up and throw away the key.

Is the 're-offending rate' 100%, without fail? If so that pretty much disproves your theory, if one in a thousand can be rehabilitated, how can you claim a system that treats him like the others is just? And what of those who have been unjustly convicted? Far too many people are unjustly convicted of crimes they did not commit in this country, and in every country. Any just system must give the benefit to the accused and protect their rights above and beyond those of society in general. Your arguments simply demonstrate that you are completely out of touch with our tradition of jurisprudcence...a noble tradition that is far more important than your reactionary emotional outbursts.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Elisha

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ialmisry,

I don't think you ever shared WHAT/WHY you were in prison - i.e. your crime...and how long you were there.  If you're willing to share that is....  Are you a convicted felon?  Just curious.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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I read "War and Peace" while in and a number of other things...

Would you recommend a particular translation?  I have never read it, but I prefer recent and "fresh" translations that keep your typical MTV-gen-X rebel like myself interested.

Offline Myrrh23

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Ok...so lets say you can't rehabilitate them, or at least the odds are heavily against it.  What is to become of them when they have served their sentence? What is so great or good about keeping them in a cage? If they are kept away from society at large, their rehabilitation becomes a non-issue, there is no one for them to act out on/with. In an internal exile situation at least they have a chance to lead productive lives, or at least a more meaningful life.

There can be a variety of internal exile situations and some don't have to allow family living.  Remember the movie Pappion about the French penal colony, which was pretty brutal...but at the end the old prisoners, had a little island with cottages and a garden and regular resupply.  It's still a little rugged for my tastes, but still it was a much more humane way to keep prisoners than the hell hole they were in before?

I find your argument to be a very good one, Seraphim! :) I'll have to rent that movie(?) I understand where you're coming from. Perhaps Ialmisry has provided a little proof from his experience with prisoners that they hunger for something more than trouble.

GIC, aside from the re-offending rate, you need to pay attention to the state of mind of some of these people. I wonder if OzGeorge has ever had to deal with the pedophile state of mind. Maybe he can give a few words on this subject?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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GIC, aside from the re-offending rate, you need to pay attention to the state of mind of some of these people. I wonder if OzGeorge has ever had to deal with the pedophile state of mind. Maybe he can give a few words on this subject?
Is the "pedophile state of mind" a stereotype we attach to pedophiles out of our own ignorance, or has it been substantiated via psychological studies?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline GiC

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GIC, aside from the re-offending rate, you need to pay attention to the state of mind of some of these people. I wonder if OzGeorge has ever had to deal with the pedophile state of mind. Maybe he can give a few words on this subject?

Some? There's that word again, I'm talking about the anglo-saxon tradition of jurisprudence, you're talking about rule by the emotional outbursts of the mob. Your argument sounds like little more than appeal it ignorance and emotion, do you really expect me to believe that everyone accused of a given crime have an identical 'state of mind', identical experiences, prejudices, tragedies, successes? And, quite frankly, as much as I like George, I couldn't care less about anyone's anecdotal evidence...if you want to make a point please provide peer-reviewed research.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Myrrh23

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GIC, aside from the re-offending rate, you need to pay attention to the state of mind of some of these people. I wonder if OzGeorge has ever had to deal with the pedophile state of mind. Maybe he can give a few words on this subject?
Is the "pedophile state of mind" a stereotype we attach to pedophiles out of our own ignorance, or has it been substantiated via psychological studies?

I'll dig up the cases I've studied. Just lemme get through this week's worth of miserable classes. ;)
*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator