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Author Topic: The forgivness of Judas?  (Read 2844 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 10, 2009, 09:19:44 PM »

Are there any Orthodox prayers for the forgiveness of Judas? Undecided If there aren't, couldn't we pray for forgiveness for Judas?
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2009, 12:31:30 AM »

Bump! Grin
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2009, 12:44:03 AM »

Well- forgiveness must be sought to be achieved. So if Judas doesn't seek forgiveness there is no amount of prayer that will help him achieve it. We are all-if are- in a hell of our own making. The light of God's love shines equally on the just and unjust. The difference is our ability to accept that love determines whether that love brings us pain or joy.
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2009, 01:17:20 AM »

Well- forgiveness must be sought to be achieved. So if Judas doesn't seek forgiveness there is no amount of prayer that will help him achieve it. We are all-if are- in a hell of our own making. The light of God's love shines equally on the just and unjust. The difference is our ability to accept that love determines whether that love brings us pain or joy.

The Scriptures (Matthew 27) tell us that Judas repented.   

Along with the rest of mankind He would have been released from Hell when Christ descended there and liberated all (except for the Devil and his angels.)

Have you read Bishop Hilarion on this topic?  I'll see if I can find his words.
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2009, 01:26:56 AM »

Are there any Orthodox prayers for the forgiveness of Judas? Undecided If there aren't, couldn't we pray for forgiveness for Judas?

The Church is very clear in its teaching (see texts of Holy Week services and the words of Christ in scripture) that there is no hope for Judas.   IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2009, 01:33:58 AM »

A good resource thread:  Did Judas Repent?  (Matt 27:3)
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 01:34:39 AM »

Are there any Orthodox prayers for the forgiveness of Judas? Undecided If there aren't, couldn't we pray for forgiveness for Judas?

The Church is very clear in its teaching (see texts of Holy Week services and the words of Christ in scripture) that there is no hope for Judas.   IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.

But Fr. Irish Hermit stated that Judas repented and would have been released from Hell along with the rest of mankind. I don't know if the Biblical language translations got mixed up, but did Judas repent of his actions, or did he merely regret? What is the difference between the two?

Thanks, Peter! Grin I posted before I saw your reply.
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 01:44:17 AM »

Are there any Orthodox prayers for the forgiveness of Judas? Undecided If there aren't, couldn't we pray for forgiveness for Judas?

The Church is very clear in its teaching (see texts of Holy Week services and the words of Christ in scripture) that there is no hope for Judas.   IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.

But Fr. Irish Hermit stated that Judas repented and would have been released from Hell along with the rest of mankind. I don't know if the Biblical language translations got mixed up, but did Judas repent of his actions, or did he merely regret? What is the difference between the two?

Thanks, Peter! Grin I posted before I saw your reply.
I've never thought of suicide as the ultimate act of repentance, so I wouldn't say Judas repented.  As to the difference between repentance and regret:  Regret is merely the emotion of sorrow for one's actions, whereas repentance is the active turning away from sin driven by one's sorrow for one's actions.  Judas Iscariot was certainly filled with sorrow over having betrayed his Master, but his sorrow drove him to suicide, not to the turning from sin and desire for reconciliation by which Peter acted on his sorrow that he denied knowing his Master.
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2009, 01:54:43 AM »

The Scriptures (Matthew 27) tell us that Judas repented.   

Matthew 27 says that he was "remorseful". This is not synonymous with "repenting".  If he had genuinely repented, he would not have hanged himself.  This was an act of despair.  I agree with PtA.

Quote
Along with the rest of mankind He would have been released from Hell when Christ descended there and liberated all (except for the Devil and his angels.)

I have to disagree with you.   I have noticed you use this argument several times in other threads.   Many service books seem to mistranslate the Greek "hades" as "hell".  The problem is that "hell" and "hades" are not the same thing.  "Hades" is more or less synonymous with the Hebrew "sheol". This was thought by the Jews to be a not very pleasant and shadowy kind of existence beyond the grave where disembodied human spirits existed.  It might also simply refer to death itself, "the grave".  This is what Christ liberates us from.  But "hell" is something else again, a state where people experience the presence and love of God as torment, or whatever else one might conceive hell to be.  Christ did not descend into Hell, he descended into Hades and liberated all there.

Quote
Have you read Bishop Hilarion on this topic?  I'll see if I can find his words.

I like a lot of the things that Bishop Hilarion has to say.  But I have noticed that he also seems to not be aware that "hell" is an inaccurate rendering of the Greek text.  My own bishop is always very careful to replace the word "hell" with "hades" when he recites the OCA translation of the paschal homily of St. John Chrysostom. 
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2009, 02:02:20 AM »

A good resource thread:  Did Judas Repent?  (Matt 27:3)

Yes, a good thread.

I see that the some of Bishop Hilarion's article is there at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15756.msg299105.html#msg299105

Question:  What would your priest do if you asked him to serve a memorial service for Judas?
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2009, 02:13:12 AM »

[
Matthew 27 says that he was "remorseful". This is not synonymous with "repenting".  If he had genuinely repented, he would not have hanged himself.  This was an act of despair. 

If Origin was right and Judas hung himself to be able to meet his Master in the next life and ask forgiveness?
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2009, 02:17:11 AM »

[
Matthew 27 says that he was "remorseful". This is not synonymous with "repenting".  If he had genuinely repented, he would not have hanged himself.  This was an act of despair. 

If Origin was right and Judas hung himself to be able to meet his Master in the next life and ask forgiveness?

Judas still believed in the One God. Why not ask forgiveness of Him through prayer?
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2009, 07:28:13 AM »

Judas still believed in the One God. Why not ask forgiveness of Him through prayer?

A great question indeed.  To answer your earlier question - it would be hoped that (a) all sinners repent, and (b) God have mercy on all of them.  If Christ can forgive Judas, then how much easier will it be to forgive us?  But we shall speculate not; Judas, who knew Christ, the Theotokos, and the Apostles intimately, will/would/could have plenty of intercessors.  Let us instead focus on those we know, those we worry about, and contemporary people in need of our prayers of repentance and forgiveness.

If Origin was right and Judas hung himself to be able to meet his Master in the next life and ask forgiveness?

I don't think it falls in line with the Jewish desire (not only amongst Jews, but also amongst those who had followed either/both St. John the Forerunner and Christ) to have one's sins atoned for (or forgiven) before death.
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2009, 08:56:35 AM »

Did Judas kill himself? What about Acts 1:18.
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2009, 01:14:06 PM »

Did Judas kill himself? What about Acts 1:18.

Judas killed himself. The account in the Acts does not mention his suicide, but this does not entail its denial. The Acts presents Judas' tragic end from Peter's (and other apostles') viewpoint. The reference to Judas' death is recounted by Peter in association with the selection of a new character for the apostolic mission. It is by no means a coincidence that the horrible and terrifying details of Judas' death are related by Peter as signs of his sins. Interestingly, the narrative of Judas' death turns him into a typology of the region of Judah, the punishment of which is recorded in the book of Prophet Jeremiah 19. As Judah is broken like a vessel beyond repair, Judas is broken into pieces, his intestines gushing out. As the land of Judah turns into a desolate place signifying death and desolation, Judas' field turns into a field that everyone associates with blood and death, etc..
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 02:19:02 PM »

Did Judas kill himself? What about Acts 1:18.

Judas killed himself. The account in the Acts does not mention his suicide, but this does not entail its denial. The Acts presents Judas' tragic end from Peter's (and other apostles') viewpoint. The reference to Judas' death is recounted by Peter in association with the selection of a new character for the apostolic mission. It is by no means a coincidence that the horrible and terrifying details of Judas' death are related by Peter as signs of his sins. Interestingly, the narrative of Judas' death turns him into a typology of the region of Judah, the punishment of which is recorded in the book of Prophet Jeremiah 19. As Judah is broken like a vessel beyond repair, Judas is broken into pieces, his intestines gushing out. As the land of Judah turns into a desolate place signifying death and desolation, Judas' field turns into a field that everyone associates with blood and death, etc..


Ok. So did he hang himself first and then fall headlong into the field? Or did he fall headlong into the field burst asunder and then go hang himself? How many times did he die?
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 02:26:29 PM »


Ok. So did he hang himself first and then fall headlong into the field? Or did he fall headlong into the field burst asunder and then go hang himself? How many times did he die?

It seems that you already know the answer.  Grin

He hanged himself first (that is what he himself did), then his body fell headlong into the field (that is what God did to him: breaking him like a vessel beyond repair)
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2009, 02:28:22 PM »

Ok. So did he hang himself first and then fall headlong into the field? Or did he fall headlong into the field burst asunder and then go hang himself? How many times did he die?
According to tradition, the former. He hung himself, the cord broke and his body fell.
If you look at the location of the "Field of Blood" in modern Israel, it is a hilly region with terraces. Falling from a tree, one could fall headlong down a terrace or hillside and the body would be broken by the impact of landing in the lower section.
Here is a photo of where the "Field of Blood" is believed to have been:

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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 02:32:14 PM »

Here is a larger version:
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2009, 04:50:14 PM »

IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.

Uh oh, then I guess I'm in REALLY big trouble for praying for Satan, too!  Cheesy

But I gave my .02 on that other thread regarding this. IMO, prayers to him are still valid, and I still hope that he was forgiven.
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 05:09:39 PM »

IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.

Uh oh, then I guess I'm in REALLY big trouble for praying for Satan, too!  Cheesy

But I gave my .02 on that other thread regarding this. IMO, prayers to him are still valid, and I still hope that he was forgiven.
Prayers to whom?  Satan? Shocked
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 07:10:28 PM »

Well- forgiveness must be sought to be achieved. So if Judas doesn't seek forgiveness there is no amount of prayer that will help him achieve it. We are all-if are- in a hell of our own making. The light of God's love shines equally on the just and unjust. The difference is our ability to accept that love determines whether that love brings us pain or joy.

The Scriptures (Matthew 27) tell us that Judas repented.  

Along with the rest of mankind He would have been released from Hell when Christ descended there and liberated all (except for the Devil and his angels.)

Have you read Bishop Hilarion on this topic?  I'll see if I can find his words.


I can't postulate whether or not Judas repented. The issue to me is more a general one of whether we can pray for anyone to be forgiven. And if we pray for the forgiveness of the unrepentant then we are praying for something that we have no influence over. I guess I think of Judas like any other sinner to a large extent in that way. I tend to think in terms of the fact that forgiveness is there to be given, but it isn't always sought.
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 07:27:49 PM »

I can't postulate whether or not Judas repented. The issue to me is more a general one of whether we can pray for anyone to be forgiven. And if we pray for the forgiveness of the unrepentant then we are praying for something that we have no influence over. I guess I think of Judas like any other sinner to a large extent in that way. I tend to think in terms of the fact that forgiveness is there to be given, but it isn't always sought.

Pray like this.   This Akathist for the Departed is printed at Holy Trinity Monastery Jordnaville and is issued with the blessing of the Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

Forgive, O Lord, those who have died without repentance.  Save those who
have committed suicide in the darkness of their mind, that the flame of
their sinfulness may be extinguished in the ocean of Thy grace.

O Lord of unutterable Love, remember Thy servants who have
                        fallen asleep.


Ikos 5

http://users.sisqtel.net/williams/akathist-repose.html


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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 08:17:29 PM »

Iscariot, (Judas) killed himself and went straight to hell, the True Orthodox Church does not pray for him.

There were two apostles who betrayed the Lord, Iscariot and Apostle Peter.

The first one, full of pride, could not repent, and tormented by his conscience, killed himself.

Apostle Peter was humble and repented for betraying the Lord to such extent that every time he heard a cock singing, he shed bitter tears for what he did.   

The Church is very clear and states that suicide is a direct path to hell, and she doesn't offer a panikhida (memorial service) nor a burial, and not a single prayer for people who killed themselves. People who committed suicide can not be buried in any Church cemetery, or in holy ground.
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2009, 08:29:41 PM »


Iscariot, (Judas) killed himself and went straight to hell, the True Orthodox Church does not pray for him.



In that case the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is not part of the True Orthodox Church since it is willing to pray for those who kill themselves.

In fact, if praying for suicides knocks a Church out of the True Orthodox Church then there simply is no True Orthodox Church.  ALL Orthodox Churches pray the Third of the Kneeling Prayers at Pentecost which prays for those who have killed themselves.
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2009, 09:05:50 PM »

In fact, if praying for suicides knocks a Church out of the True Orthodox Church then there simply is no True Orthodox Church.  ALL Orthodox Churches pray the Third of the Kneeling Prayers at Pentecost which prays for those who have killed themselves.

This is one of the many innovations of World Orthodoxy, it constitutes an attack against the faith and tradition of the True Orthodox Church. And you are correct, by their innovations in faith and practices, they set themselves outside the Church, and subject themselves to anathema (condemnation)


Excuse me, Pravoslab, are you aware of the antiquity of the Kneeling Prayers?  They were composed in the 4th century by our holy Father Saint Basil the Great.

I suspect that you are not Orthodox really.  No true Orthodox would say that Saint Basil was outside the Church and subject to anathema.  Methinks you had better go looking for a true Orthodox bishop because whoever is teaching you at the moment is confused and ignorant.
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2009, 10:01:53 PM »

In fact, if praying for suicides knocks a Church out of the True Orthodox Church then there simply is no True Orthodox Church.  ALL Orthodox Churches pray the Third of the Kneeling Prayers at Pentecost which prays for those who have killed themselves.

This is one of the many innovations of World Orthodoxy, it constitutes an attack against the faith and tradition of the True Orthodox Church. And you are correct, by their innovations in faith and practices, they set themselves outside the Church, and subject themselves to anathema (condemnation)


Excuse me, Pravoslab, are you aware of the antiquity of the Kneeling Prayers?  They were composed in the 4th century by our holy Father Saint Basil the Great.

I suspect that you are not Orthodox really.  No true Orthodox would say that Saint Basil was outside the Church and subject to anathema.  Methinks you had better go looking for a true Orthodox bishop because whoever is teaching you at the moment is confused and ignorant.

For reference sake:

The kneeling prayers in Greek are on this page:
http://analogion.net/glt/texts/Pen/p82.uni.htm

In English they're on this page:
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/PentAll.htm

The third prayer:
Quote
After which the Deacon:

Again and again, on bended knees, let us pray to the Lord.

The Priest prays:

Christ our God, ever-flowing Spring, source of life and illumination, co-eternal creative power of the Father, for the salvation of mortals, who fulfilled the whole dispensation with surpassing goodness; tore apart the indissoluble bonds of Death and the bars of Hell, trampling down multitudes of evil spirits; offered yourself as an unblemished oblation for our sake, giving your most pure body, intangible and inaccessible to every sin, as a sacrifice, and through this dread and inexpressible offering you granting us the grace of everlasting life. You descended into Hell, smashed the everlasting bars and showed the way up to those who sat below. With a bait of divine wisdom you hooked the author of evil, the dragon of the deep, bound him with cords of darkness in Tartarus and secured him with the unquenchable fire and the exterior darkness through your infinitely powerful strength. Glorious wisdom of the Father, who appeared to those in distress as a mighty helper and enlightened those who sat in darkness and the shadow of death, Lord of unending glory, beloved Son of the most high Father, eternal light from eternal light, Sun of justice, hear us who entreat you and give rest to the souls of your servants who have fallen asleep before us, our fathers, mothers and brethren and the rest of our relatives according to the flesh and all our kinsfolk of the household of the faith, whose memory we too now keep, because in you is the might of all things and in your hand you hold all the ends of the earth.

Master almighty, God of our fathers and Lord of mercy, Creator of the mortal and immortal race and of every human nature that is brought together and again dissolved, of life and death, of our sojourn here and our translation there, you apportion times to the living and establish the moments of death. You lead down to Hell and you lead up. You bind with weakness and release with power. You dispose all things for our use and direct what is to come for our advantage. You give life by hope of resurrection to those wounded by the sting of Death. Master of all things, our God and Saviour, the hope of all the ends of the earth and of those far off upon the sea, who on this final, great and saving day of Pentecost revealed to us the mystery of the holy, consubstantial, co-eternal, undivided and uncompounded Trinity and the coming and presence of your holy and life-giving Spirit poured out in the form of tongues of fire on your holy Apostles, setting them as Evangelists of our true faith, revealing them as confessors and heralds of true theology; who have also been pleased on this most perfect and saving Feast to receive suppliant prayers of atonement for those who are immured in Hell, granting us great hopes that repose and comfort will be sent down from you to the departed from the pains which hold them, hear us, lowly and wretched, who entreat you, and give rest to the souls of your servants who have fallen asleep before us in a place of light, a place of green pasture, a place of refreshment, from which all grief, sorrow and sighing have fled away, and establish their spirits in the tents of the Just and count them worthy of peace and repose. Because the dead will not praise you, O Lord, nor do those in Hell have the freedom to offer you thanksgiving, but we the living bless you and implore you and bring before you atoning prayers and sacrifices on behalf of their souls.

And he adds this Prayer:

God, great and eternal, holy and lover of humankind, who have counted us worthy to stand at this hour before your unapproachable glory to hymn and praise your wonders, be gracious to us, your unworthy servants. Grant us grace to offer you without conceit and with a broken heart the thrice-holy hymn of glory and thanksgiving for your great gifts, which you have made us and always do so.

Remember, Lord, our weakness and do not destroy us with our iniquities, but in our humiliation show us your great mercy, so that fleeing the darkness of sin we may walk in the daylight of justice; and having put on the weapons of light we may persevere unassailed by any assault of the evil one, and that with boldness we may glorify you for all things, the only true God and lover of humankind. For indeed, Master and Maker of all things, truly great is your mystery: the temporary dissolution of your creatures and after this their restoration and repose to the ages. We give thanks to you for all things, for our entrances into this world and for our departures, which through your unfailing promise betoken for us beforehand our hopes of resurrection and unending life. Would that we may enjoy it at your future second Coming, for you are the author of our resurrection and the impartial judge who loves humankind of what we have done in life, the Master and Lord of our reward.

Through your supreme condescension you became a partaker with us in the same flesh and blood and in those passions of ours that are blameless by willingly submitting to temptation, and, possessing compassionate pity, having yourself suffered by being tempted, and, as you promised, have yourself become a helper for us who are tempted, and so you have also led us to dispassion. Accept therefore, Master, our supplications and entreaties, and give rest to all the fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, and children of each, and to every other kinsman and relative, and to all the souls who have gone to their rest before us in the hope of resurrection to eternal life, and establish their spirits and their names in the book of life and in the bosoms of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and in the land of the living, for the kingdom of heaven, in the Paradise of pleasure, through your shining Angels introducing them into your holy mansions. With them raise our bodies also on the day which you have appointed in accordance with your holy and unfailing promises. There is therefore no death for your servants, Lord, when we go out from the body and come to you, O God, but a translation from sorrowful things to better and more desirable, and rest and joy. But if we have in anything sinned against you, be gracious to us and them, because no one is clean of defilement before you, though they last but a day, except you alone, who appeared sinless upon earth, our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we all hope to obtain mercy and forgiveness of sins. Therefore, as you are good and love humankind, remit, forgive, pardon us our faults, voluntary and involuntary, in knowledge and in ignorance, manifest and unnoticed, in deed, in thought, in word, of all our actions and movements. Give freedom and respite to those who have gone before us and bless all of us here present, granting a good and peaceful end to us and to all your people, and opening to us the compassion of your mercy and love for humankind at your dread and fearful Second Coming, and make us all worthy of your kingdom.

He also adds this.

Great and most high God, who alone possess immortality and dwell in unapproachable light, who made all creation with wisdom, who made a separation between the light and the darkness and placed the sun to rule the day and the moon and the stars to rule the night, who have counted us sinners worthy on this present day to come before your face with thanksgiving and to offer you our evening worship. Direct our prayer, Lord, like incense before you and accept it as a sweet fragrance. Grant us also that the present evening and the coming night may be peaceful; clothe us with the weapons of light; deliver us from every terror of the night and from every deed that operates in darkness, and give us sleep, which you have given for the repose of our weakness, free from every diabolical vision. Yes, Master of all things, giver of blessings, may we, being moved to compunction on our beds, call to mind your all-holy Name in the night, and made radiant by the meditation of your commandments may we rise up with joy of soul to give glory to your loving-kindness, offering supplications and entreaties to your compassion for our sins and those of all your people. Visit them in your mercy at the prayers of the holy Mother of God.
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 10:08:32 PM »

I know it is a bit of a gruesome topic to be reading up on but the medical articles on the Net say that a person may be conscious for several minutes after hanging themselves.  This would easily provide enough time for repentance and a prayer for forgiveness.
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 10:27:09 PM »

IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.

Uh oh, then I guess I'm in REALLY big trouble for praying for Satan, too!  Cheesy

But I gave my .02 on that other thread regarding this. IMO, prayers to him are still valid, and I still hope that he was forgiven.
Prayers to whom?  Satan? Shocked

Try to get your prepositions right...they can be of significance some times. Wink
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 10:29:56 PM »

I know it is a bit of a gruesome topic to be reading up on but the medical articles on the Net say that a person may be conscious for several minutes after hanging themselves.  This would easily provide enough time for repentance and a prayer for forgiveness.

If you've got the links handy, you may want to post them, in case people want to follow up on your point.
(I wouldn't quote the articles here, though...)
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2009, 10:52:22 PM »

I know it is a bit of a gruesome topic to be reading up on but the medical articles on the Net say that a person may be conscious for several minutes after hanging themselves.  This would easily provide enough time for repentance and a prayer for forgiveness.

If you've got the links handy, you may want to post them, in case people want to follow up on your point.
(I wouldn't quote the articles here, though...)

It can be a distressing thing to read about and so I'll just post a general article and people can use the links if they want to make further investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2009, 11:02:48 PM »



Excuse me, Pravoslab, are you aware of the antiquity of the Kneeling Prayers?  They were composed in the 4th century by our holy Father Saint Basil the Great.


The kneeling prayers are not addressed for the ones who commited suicide.

The revolutionary liberal "World Orthodoxy" distorts prayers and liturgical texts, and developed new religious services contrary to the Canons and Dogmas of the Orthodox Church. Two examples of this, is the unorthodox service for people who commited suicides, and the panikhidas for non orthodox and non christians.

Saint Basil the Great did not compose any prayer for people who killed themselves. As you can see in the text, kindly posted by the moderator, the kneeling prayers are not for people who killed themselves.




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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2009, 12:04:08 AM »

Tangent on how the ROCOR and "World Orthodoxy" has "departed from the True Orthodox Church" split off and merged into this thread:  Whose Orthodoxy, Anyway?
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2009, 12:50:20 AM »

Excuse me, Pravoslab, are you aware of the antiquity of the Kneeling Prayers?  They were composed in the 4th century by our holy Father Saint Basil the Great.
Fr. Ambrose, I just read the Third Kneeling prayer that cleveland recently posted for our reference.  It offers up nothing in regards to those who have killed themselves through suicide, so the comment in the following quote implying that Pravoslav09's church has pronounced St. Basil anathema for this prayer is an unfounded and uncalled-for accusation that I think you should take back.

I suspect that you are not Orthodox really.  No true Orthodox would say that Saint Basil was outside the Church and subject to anathema.  Methinks you had better go looking for a true Orthodox bishop because whoever is teaching you at the moment is confused and ignorant.
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2009, 03:36:33 AM »

Fr. Ambrose, I just read the Third Kneeling prayer that cleveland recently posted for our reference.  It offers up nothing in regards to those who have killed themselves through suicide, so the comment in the following quote implying that Pravoslav09's church has pronounced St. Basil anathema for this prayer is an unfounded and uncalled-for accusation that I think you should take back.

I never read Cleveland's posting of the Three Kneeling Prayers because I asumed that the prayers were the same as ours.  So your post prompted me to read what he sent.   Ours are longer and have a different content.  Why is that?  Have you had a look at the OCA ones? 

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church with this accusation:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20520.msg309911.html#msg309911
Quote
Exactly, the ROCA under the Moscow Patriarchate, founded by Ab. Laurus Skurla in 2001 departed from the True Orthodox Church, to join the most liberal and anti-orthodox Patriarchate, founded by the Soviet Government and Patriarch Sergius in 1927.

You may recall that a few years back there was a pan-Orthodox Synod and it addressed the issue of what I call the autogenic Churches and it spoke against them very strongly as groups which attack the Church of Christ.  Pravoslav is a guest on an Orthodox Forum and should remember his manners.
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2009, 03:48:56 AM »

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and soon the whole world will be blind and toothless.
Do I demand apologies from you for what you say against the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2009, 03:59:55 AM »

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and soon the whole world will be blind and toothless.
Do I demand apologies from you for what you say against the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

I have nothing against the Patriarchate of Constantinople and have praised its long and glorious history and the holy men who sat on the Great Throne.   

I have problems with the present All-Holiness for his (in my view) excessive claims to authority in the Orthodox world and for certain opinions on morality.

Please be assured of my enormous respect for your Church.  And I have been praying since you wrote about it that the prophecy of the Elder Paisios comes true and the Russians liberate it from the Turks.
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2009, 04:08:59 AM »

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and soon the whole world will be blind and toothless.
Do I demand apologies from you for what you say against the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

I have nothing against the Patriarchate of Constantinople and have praised its long and glorious history and the holy men who sat on the Great Throne.   

I have problems with the present All-Holiness for his (in my view) excessive claims to authority in the Orthodox world and for certain opinions on morality.

Please be assured of my enormous respect for your Church.  And I have been praying since you wrote about it that the prophecy of the Elder Paisios comes true and the Russians liberate it from the Turks.

So the theory is good but the current practice isn't as far as you're concerned. Well that's how Pravoslav09 feels about the Russian Church.
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2009, 04:29:43 AM »

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and soon the whole world will be blind and toothless.
Do I demand apologies from you for what you say against the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

I have nothing against the Patriarchate of Constantinople and have praised its long and glorious history and the holy men who sat on the Great Throne.   

I have problems with the present All-Holiness for his (in my view) excessive claims to authority in the Orthodox world and for certain opinions on morality.

Please be assured of my enormous respect for your Church.  And I have been praying since you wrote about it that the prophecy of the Elder Paisios comes true and the Russians liberate it from the Turks.

So the theory is good but the current practice isn't as far as you're concerned. Well that's how Pravoslav09 feels about the Russian Church.

Do you have access to a copy of the decisions of the pan-Orthodox Synod under His All-Holiness which dealt with the question of autogenic Churches and the Orthodox response to them.   I cannot find my copy on this machine and it must be on my defunct one.  Drat!

This is taking us a long way from the topic of Judas.  Ought we to start a separate thread to discuss the relationship of Orthodoxy to the autogenic Churches?
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2009, 05:14:26 AM »

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church with this accusation:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20520.msg309911.html#msg309911
Quote
Exactly, the ROCA under the Moscow Patriarchate, founded by Ab. Laurus Skurla in 2001 departed from the True Orthodox Church, to join the most liberal and anti-orthodox Patriarchate, founded by the Soviet Government and Patriarch Sergius in 1927.

You may recall that a few years back there was a pan-Orthodox Synod and it addressed the issue of what I call the autogenic Churches and it spoke against them very strongly as groups which attack the Church of Christ.  Pravoslav is a guest on an Orthodox Forum and should remember his manners.

Why not set the example for Pravoslav09 to follow, Father?  If you want him to apologize to you, then set the example by apologizing to him first. Wink
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2009, 05:27:46 AM »

Apologise to Pravoslav.  Probably right after he apologises for attacking the Russian Church with this accusation:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20520.msg309911.html#msg309911
Quote
Exactly, the ROCA under the Moscow Patriarchate, founded by Ab. Laurus Skurla in 2001 departed from the True Orthodox Church, to join the most liberal and anti-orthodox Patriarchate, founded by the Soviet Government and Patriarch Sergius in 1927.

You may recall that a few years back there was a pan-Orthodox Synod and it addressed the issue of what I call the autogenic Churches and it spoke against them very strongly as groups which attack the Church of Christ.  Pravoslav is a guest on an Orthodox Forum and should remember his manners.

Why not set the example for Pravoslav09 to follow, Father?  If you want him to apologize to you, then set the example by apologizing to him first. Wink

Pravoslav,  I make a prostration before you to the earth.
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2009, 07:16:00 AM »

The kneeling prayers are not addressed for the ones who commited suicide.

The revolutionary liberal "World Orthodoxy" distorts prayers and liturgical texts, and developed new religious services contrary to the Canons and Dogmas of the Orthodox Church. Two examples of this, is the unorthodox service for people who commited suicides, and the panikhidas for non orthodox and non christians.

Saint Basil the Great did not compose any prayer for people who killed themselves. As you can see in the text, kindly posted by the moderator, the kneeling prayers are not for people who killed themselves.

Well, while the kneeling prayers don't specifically mention suicide victims, they don't single them out either, and instead they ask for forgiveness of sins for all who have died by all means.  IMO, it's the best approach that we can take: ask God for the forgiveness of all men, no matter how hopeless their case may seem to us, and leave the act of judgment in His capable hands.
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2009, 11:52:16 AM »

IMHO it would not be a good idea to pray for his forgiveness.

Uh oh, then I guess I'm in REALLY big trouble for praying for Satan, too!  Cheesy

But I gave my .02 on that other thread regarding this. IMO, prayers to him are still valid, and I still hope that he was forgiven.

You pray for Satan ? How do you stand with your dreaming ? Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2009, 04:44:59 PM »

Tangent on hell and hades split off and made the subject of its own thread:  Hell or Hades?
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