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mike
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« on: April 10, 2009, 01:56:59 PM »

Please post your own solutions of jurisdictional mess problem. They don't have be propable or realistic. Please do not comment on certain ideas. For commenting ones plan start another thread. Use your imagination!

Here goes mine:

The main goal was not to insult any of three most active ad biggest Churches (Constantinople, Antioch and Moscow). I also didn't want to change the structure which is on much. I know that I made European ethnic Churches weaker but everyone cannot be satisfied.

Some new laws would also be introduced:
- pan-Orthodox gathering  every year
- each Autocephalous Church will be allowed to have only one representation parish in other Autonomous or Autocephalous Church (not counting monasteries on Athos)
- each Parish will be allowed to choose calendar and rite to follow and language to use




1. Church of Constantinople
2. Autonomous Church on Northern Europe (Finland, Swedenland, Norway, Island, Estonia, GB, Ireland)
2. Autonomous Church of Western Europe (the rest)
4. Autonomous Church of Australia and New Zealand
5. Church of Alexandria
6. Church of Antioch (all East Tongue)
7. Church of Jerusalem
8. Autonomous Church of Sinai
9. Church of Russia
10. Autonomous Church of Lithuania and Belarus
11. Autonomous Church of China
12. Autonomous Church of Japan and Korea
13. Autonomous Church of Latin America (Russians are most active there)
14. Church of Georgia
15. Church of Serbia
16. Church of Romania and Moldova
17. Church of Bulgaria and Macedonia (Macedonians get on better with Bulgarians, than they do with Serbs; Church of Macedonia might be granted status of Autonomous Church)
18. Church of Cyprus
19. Church of Greece (whole country without Athos)
20. Church of Albania
21. Church of Poland
22. Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia
23. Church of America
24. Church of Ukraine
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 02:03:35 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2009, 02:30:18 PM »

I'm going to defer to my comments in the "North American Unity" thread.
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 06:58:11 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 12:07:37 AM »

Please post your own solutions of jurisdictional mess problem. They don't have be propable or realistic. Please do not comment on certain ideas. For commenting ones plan start another thread. Use your imagination!

Here goes mine:

The main goal was not to insult any of three most active ad biggest Churches (Constantinople, Antioch and Moscow). I also didn't want to change the structure which is on much. I know that I made European ethnic Churches weaker but everyone cannot be satisfied.

Some new laws would also be introduced:
- pan-Orthodox gathering  every year
- each Autocephalous Church will be allowed to have only one representation parish in other Autonomous or Autocephalous Church (not counting monasteries on Athos)
- each Parish will be allowed to choose calendar and rite to follow and language to use




1. Church of Constantinople
2. Autonomous Church on Northern Europe (Finland, Swedenland, Norway, Island, Estonia, GB, Ireland)
2. Autonomous Church of Western Europe (the rest)
4. Autonomous Church of Australia and New Zealand
5. Church of Alexandria
6. Church of Antioch (all East Tongue)
7. Church of Jerusalem
8. Autonomous Church of Sinai
9. Church of Russia
10. Autonomous Church of Lithuania and Belarus
11. Autonomous Church of China
12. Autonomous Church of Japan and Korea
13. Autonomous Church of Latin America (Russians are most active there)
14. Church of Georgia
15. Church of Serbia
16. Church of Romania and Moldova
17. Church of Bulgaria and Macedonia (Macedonians get on better with Bulgarians, than they do with Serbs; Church of Macedonia might be granted status of Autonomous Church)
18. Church of Cyprus
19. Church of Greece (whole country without Athos)
20. Church of Albania
21. Church of Poland
22. Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia
23. Church of America
24. Church of Ukraine


Number 17  isn't correct....The Macedonian get along very well with Serbs...i see macedonian ,bulgarians in the sebian church all the time...Why don't the Macedonian use the Bulgarian Cirilica if this is true..They don't..... it 's the Serbian cirilica that they use..they also get along fine with the bulgarians..they just don't want a Serbian or Bulgarian identity, but there own Macedonian identity...
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 01:02:27 AM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.

Agreed.  This would never work given the nations' complex and often turbulent interactions.
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2009, 02:25:48 AM »

Above and beyond this being little more than a scheme to usurp the authority of Constantinople and the aforementioned problem of trying to lump, of any given two countries in the world, Japan and Korea together...heck, Iran and Israel might even be on better terms on a popular level. There seem to be a few other obvious problems to your plans.

First, why would Greenland be grouped with North America, considering it's part of the Kingdom of Denmark? Not that I know of any large Orthodox presence there, but wouldn't it make more sense to group it with, say, I don't know, Denmark?

Next, to suggest that any jursidiction can have even one parish within another jurisdiction is somewhat problematic, espeically the suggestion that they can have even more than that in Constantinople's jursidiction on Athos. Constantinople may indulge differences in rite amongst the monasteries, but it would be rather unbelievable to suggest that they shouldn't all be under her direct jursdiction.

Then, to let every parish choose language, rite, AND calendar seems a bit extreme, what happened to "one bishop, one eucharist, one church'...yada, yada, yada.  At the very minimum that should be subject to the bishop of the dioceses or you're asking for complete chaos, parish councils are bad enough as they are.

Then, of course, there's always my personal dissatisfaction with listing Cyprus so low in the dyptics, it may be only an Archepiscopacy; however, it's one of the six churches along with Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem that actually has a right to self-government by the authority of the Oecumenical Synods. The remainder only exist at the good pleasure of their mother churches, it has always seemed absurd that they should be ranked any lower than fifth in the dyptics (assuming Rome is not commemorated).

Then there's the question of why you'd place a hypothetical 'American church' in the dyptics before a Church of Ukraine, which is much more ancient and well established, with a far larger Orthodox Community.
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 03:17:09 AM »

What mess?

I am particularly pleased there is no unified structure.

That makes us harder to get swallowed by antichristian forces.

BTW, I did make a laugh when I read the order in the above list.
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 04:54:09 AM »

First, why would Greenland be grouped with North America, considering it's part of the Kingdom of Denmark? Not that I know of any large Orthodox presence there, but wouldn't it make more sense to group it with, say, I don't know, Denmark?

And why is Svalbard (part of Kingdom of Norway) under Russian jurisdiction, and not the "Autonomous Church of Northern Europe"? Given the Orthodox population of Western Europe, I don't see why two autonomous churches are needed here.
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2009, 01:57:52 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.

It's probably best not to group Japan with anyone in East Asia, actually.


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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 02:24:45 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.

I wasn't aware that Japanese-Korean prejudices are still as strong as they were 50 years ago.

Number 17  isn't correct....The Macedonian get along very well with Serbs...i see macedonian ,bulgarians in the sebian church all the time...Why don't the Macedonian use the Bulgarian Cirilica if this is true..They don't..... it 's the Serbian cirilica that they use..they also get along fine with the bulgarians..they just don't want a Serbian or Bulgarian identity, but there own Macedonian identity...

Bulgarian Church is the jurisdiction which gathers all canonical Macedonian Parishes in the US, not Serbian Church.

First, why would Greenland be grouped with North America, considering it's part of the Kingdom of Denmark? Not that I know of any large Orthodox presence there, but wouldn't it make more sense to group it with, say, I don't know, Denmark?

Geographically it's the part of the North America but it might be under some European jurisdiction.

Quote
Then, to let every parish choose language, rite, AND calendar seems a bit extreme, what happened to "one bishop, one eucharist, one church'...yada, yada, yada.  At the very minimum that should be subject to the bishop of the dioceses or you're asking for complete chaos, parish councils are bad enough as they are.

IMO there wouldn't be as strong chaos as it's  now (a dozen of jurisdictions and bishops on one area).

Quote
Then, of course, there's always my personal dissatisfaction with listing Cyprus so low in the dyptics, it may be only an Archepiscopacy; however, it's one of the six churches along with Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem that actually has a right to self-government by the authority of the Oecumenical Synods. The remainder only exist at the good pleasure of their mother churches, it has always seemed absurd that they should be ranked any lower than fifth in the dyptics (assuming Rome is not commemorated).

I didn't want to change the diptychs much.

Quote
Then there's the question of why you'd place a hypothetical 'American church' in the dyptics before a Church of Ukraine, which is much more ancient and well established, with a far larger Orthodox Community.

Autocephaly of the Church of America is recognised at least by some Churches. Autocephaly of the Church of Ukraine is recognised by none.

And why is Svalbard (part of Kingdom of Norway) under Russian jurisdiction, and not the "Autonomous Church of Northern Europe"? Given the Orthodox population of Western Europe, I don't see why two autonomous churches are needed here.

I wouldn't like to cancel Church of Finland, i broadened it's teritory. The area of Norway under Russians is my geographical mistake.

Where are your ideas? Tongue
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2009, 02:46:23 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.

I wasn't aware that Japanese-Korean prejudices are still as strong as they were 50 years ago.


They're not. Japanese and Koreans get along just fine in normal life and would be fine in any Church structure where both were ultimately answerable to the same authority (i.e., dioceses or autonomous churches of the MP, the EP, etc). But its going to take more than 5 decades for anyone in East Asia to be comfortable with a power structure with Japanese at the top--existing Orthodox would probably be fine, but a Japanese Archbishop would cripple missionary efforts.
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2009, 03:03:19 PM »

Where are your ideas? Tongue

Ukraine remains under Moscow. Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, all return to Constantinople. Poland should return to Moscow, although I think it was originally established by the EP.

I agree that Western Europe (but including Greenland and Svalbard...not that it really matters given their lack of Orthodox faithful) and Australia should be under the EP,  but I see no need for them to be autonomous churches. What is there to warrant us such a status?

The various jurisdictions in the United States and Canada should merge, but I am not in favour of its autocephaly.

Colour-wise, I don't see anything wrong with the rest of your map, but don't really see why every single diocese needs to be granted autonomy.
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2009, 03:10:28 PM »

don't really see why every single diocese needs to be granted autonomy.

So that the Churches could be ruled in the way they want and simulateously being uned omophorion under more serious and serious (don't know how to name it) jurisdictions.

I completely haven't got any idea why to cancel all autocephalies and return Polish Church (which used firstly to be an autonomous Churh under Constantinople) to Moscow.
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2009, 03:13:12 PM »

If it depended on me I'd let the bishops address this issue. It might take a few hundred years to settle out - a short time Orthodox speaking... Wink
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2009, 03:19:41 PM »

So that the Churches could be ruled in the way they want and simulateously being uned omophorion under more serious and serious (don't know how to name it) jurisdictions.

What exactly do you mean by being ruled in the way they want? Why does an archdiocese need independence (partial or total) from its Patriarch in order to properly care for its flock?

Quote
I completely haven't got any idea why to cancel all autocephalies and return Polish Church (which used firstly to be an autonomous Churh under Constantinople) to Moscow.

Because I believe the establishments of churches along ethnic or national lines is divisive and harmful.

Was not Poland under Moscow before it became an autonomous church of the EP in 1924?
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 03:21:16 PM »

Where are your ideas? Tongue

Ukraine remains under Moscow. Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, all return to Constantinople.

If I may ask, are you:

a) a provocateur?

b) an ad hominem deleted?

c) both/none of the above, but you just enjoy annoying people?

I approved this post, but deleted the ad hominem.

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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 05:25:52 PM »

Orthodox11,

While I don't disagree in theory, one huge problem confronting the consolidation of jurisdictions would be the role of politics in Church affairs in Eastern Europe.  A Moscow based Orthodox Church in Poland would likely be a target of russophobia.  There would also be problems with Macedonia returning to the EP when the EP is on a public campaign to deny Macedonian identity, language etc.  I don't disagree with the ideal, but there are a lot of issues to be dealt with along the way.   
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 05:45:33 PM »

Because I believe the establishments of churches along ethnic or national lines is divisive and harmful.
Was not Poland under Moscow before it became an autonomous church of the EP in 1924?

Wasn't Church of Poland an Autonomous Church under Constantinople from 1415 to 1686? In 1924 it became an Autocephalous Church.

Why do you all take it so serious? It's just a proposition. Noone will take it serious on any council Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 02:18:21 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.

I wasn't aware that Japanese-Korean prejudices are still as strong as they were 50 years ago.

It isn't a matter of prejudice but one of historical interactions particularly dating from the Japanese actions to annex the country of Korea starting in the late 1800's. These include the assassination of the Korean Empress Myeongseong in 1895, the country being declared a Japanese "protectorate" in 1905 and the complete annexation of Korea by Japan in 1910.  Then until the end of WWII, there were many things done suppress Korea, its people and culture as well as war crimes including drafting Korean men into the Japanese military and forcing women into what were basically brothels as "comfort women".  That's not everything, but it may give some idea of why linking the two countries would not work at all.

Ebor


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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2009, 10:02:21 AM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
Unless we conquered Nihon,abolished the pseudo-天皇,and set those islands under the regnum of royal house 李...... Wink
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2009, 12:35:40 PM »

Above and beyond this being little more than a scheme to usurp the authority of Constantinople

No, Constantinople still has authority over herself and Thrace, Pontus, and Asia (in the Roman sense).

Quote
and the aforementioned problem of trying to lump, of any given two countries in the world, Japan and Korea together...heck, Iran and Israel might even be on better terms on a popular level. There seem to be a few other obvious problems to your plans.

Don't know about that Iran-Tel Aviv thing, but I agree that any union of Japan and Korea would have to be diluted by union with China, which raises other issues...


Quote
First, why would Greenland be grouped with North America, considering it's part of the Kingdom of Denmark? Not that I know of any large Orthodox presence there, but wouldn't it make more sense to group it with, say, I don't know, Denmark?

No, for one thing, Greenland, as can be seen on the map, or better globe, is in North America.  Btw, come June it becomes its own country (in, ta-da, North America), already, by referendum (you know, that enlightenment thing) withdrawing from the EU (technically the EC) two decades ago.  Since almost the whole population speaks Inuit, it shares cultural ties across the Baffin Straight, especially with Nunavut in Canada. Of course, that also makes it more in common with the Alaskan Orthodox, the overwhelming majority of whom are also Amerindian.

Oh, and being in North America, it's in the jurisdiction of the OCA. Cheesy

Quote
Next, to suggest that any jursidiction can have even one parish within another jurisdiction is somewhat problematic, espeically the suggestion that they can have even more than that in Constantinople's jursidiction on Athos. Constantinople may indulge differences in rite amongst the monasteries, but it would be rather unbelievable to suggest that they shouldn't all be under her direct jursdiction.

They're called metochia, and everyone has them, and has had them for some time (St. Peter's in Rome is actually the metochion of Constantinople. Ironic, no?).

Quote
Then, to let every parish choose language, rite, AND calendar seems a bit extreme, what happened to "one bishop, one eucharist, one church'...yada, yada, yada.
 

The Phanariots happened to it.  We all, except for the EP's Chief Secretary, know what that meant.

Quote
At the very minimum that should be subject to the bishop of the dioceses or you're asking for complete chaos, parish councils are bad enough as they are.

point taken. The way the OCA dealt with the Arabs, Albanians, and Romanians, and how Alexandria deals with the Arabs is instructive.

Quote
Then, of course, there's always my personal dissatisfaction with listing Cyprus so low in the dyptics, it may be only an Archepiscopacy;


I actually agree with you on this.

Quote
however, it's one of the six churches along with Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem that actually has a right to self-government by the authority of the Oecumenical Synods.

Actually, the Councils only recognized, not granted, that right.  The canons make that clear.

Quote
The remainder only exist at the good pleasure of their mother churches,

I've posted a refutation of that from your friend the EP:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15123.msg312137.html#msg312137

Quote
it has always seemed absurd that they should be ranked any lower than fifth in the dyptics (assuming Rome is not commemorated).

It's not a patriarchate.  There is a lengthy account of the canonical consequences here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=qCctAAAAYAAJ&printsec=toc#PPA247,M1

Quote
Then there's the question of why you'd place a hypothetical 'American church' in the dyptics before a Church of Ukraine, which is much more ancient and well established, with a far larger Orthodox Community.

I have to agree with you here too.

Where are your ideas? Tongue

Ukraine remains under Moscow.

Why?  It seems Moscow doesn't even think so now (Ukraine has the most independence, short the Church of Japan, which is for obvious reasons and history).

Quote
Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia, all return to Constantinople.

No thanks. They've all (except maybe Greece) had enough of Phanariots.  If anything, Greece is the only one not playing nice.  There are no problems between Serbia and Romania (although Serbia has some parishes on Romanian territory), no problems between Romania and Bulgaria.  Macedonia is a problem of sorts between Bulgaria and Serbia, but a solvable one.  The problem with Greece and the Phanar is another isssue.

Lord willing, I'm going to post a thread on the autocephaly of Romania as a case study.


Quote
Poland should return to Moscow, although I think it was originally established by the EP.

Why should it return to Moscow.  And no, the EP did meddle in it, but did not establish it.

Quote
I agree that Western Europe (but including Greenland and Svalbard...not that it really matters given their lack of Orthodox faithful) and Australia should be under the EP,  but I see no need for them to be autonomous churches. What is there to warrant us such a status?

Present reality.  And evangelism.

Quote
The various jurisdictions in the United States and Canada should merge, but I am not in favour of its autocephaly.


Why not?  And who do you have in mind to oversee that merged North American Church? Roll Eyes

Quote
Colour-wise, I don't see anything wrong with the rest of your map, but don't really see why every single diocese needs to be granted autonomy.

Ecclesiology.  It seems that the patriarchy has disfigured the episcopacy, as Antioch just demonstrated.

So that the Churches could be ruled in the way they want and simulateously being uned omophorion under more serious and serious (don't know how to name it) jurisdictions.

What exactly do you mean by being ruled in the way they want? Why does an archdiocese need independence (partial or total) from its Patriarch in order to properly care for its flock?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19965.0.html

I completely haven't got any idea why to cancel all autocephalies and return Polish Church (which used firstly to be an autonomous Churh under Constantinople) to Moscow.

Because I believe the establishments of churches along ethnic or national lines is divisive and harmful.

Really?  The times I can see that in history have been harmful are the examples of the Phanar suppressing the Patriarchates of the Bulgarians and Serbs for the Ottomans, and St. Petersburg suppressing the autocephaly of Georgia.  Any other examples of it being bad?

Quote
Was not Poland under Moscow before it became an autonomous church of the EP in 1924?

After the abolition of the Orthodox Church in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, and before the integation of the Cossacks into the Russian Empire, Kiev was detached from Moscow (the Metropolitan of Kiev actually lived in Moscow, the reason why the Met. of Kiev give the staff of St. Peter (who made the move to Moscow permanent) to the PoM in his enthronement) and made an exarchate of Constantinople, at least according to Constantinople.
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2009, 01:08:21 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
Unless we conquered Nihon,abolished the pseudo-天皇,and set those islands under the regnum of royal house 李...... Wink

Why do you want to put a plum on the throne of the longest reigning dynasty in the world?

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
Unless we conquered Nihon,abolished the pseudo-天皇,and set those islands under the regnum of royal house 李...... Wink

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If I may butt in.  The first characters are the term for the Japanese emperor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_Japan

The second is the character for "plum" in Chinese "li," a common family name, and adopted by many Koreans, including the last royal/then imperial family of Korea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_dynasty

Hence my question.

At least it wasn't Greek this time from Eliodophoros. Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2009, 01:18:11 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
Unless we conquered Nihon,abolished the pseudo-天皇,and set those islands under the regnum of royal house 李...... Wink

Please provide an English translation for the characters above.  It is A) OC.net policy to provide English translations for anything outside of the designated fora and B) extremely rude to be participating in a discussion and switch to a language which most participants do not understand. ~Veniamin, Free-for-All moderator
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2009, 03:53:17 PM »

however, it's one of the six churches along with Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem that actually has a right to self-government by the authority of the Oecumenical Synods.

Actually, the Councils only recognized, not granted, that right.  The canons make that clear.

My bad.  Of course, Constantinople's right to self-government WAS created by the Ecumenical Councils.
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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2009, 11:48:15 AM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
Unless we conquered Nihon,abolished the pseudo-天皇,and set those islands under the regnum of royal house 李...... Wink

Please provide an English translation for the characters above.  It is A) OC.net policy to provide English translations for anything outside of the designated fora and B) extremely rude to be participating in a discussion and switch to a language which most participants do not understand. ~Veniamin, Free-for-All moderator

天皇: one title of the emperor of Nihon
李: family name of the royal house of Joseon

" extremely rude"?Why and how?Do you think "Kyrie eleison" and "ICXC"on the icons are "extreme rude"for non greek-speakers?
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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 11:54:44 AM »

Thank you for providing the translation.  However, if you have an issue with moderation, the proper approach is to appeal to a Global Mod, or to Fr. Chris if the action was done by a global mod.
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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 04:04:43 PM »

The title in English is "Tenno" which has a meaning of "Heavenly Light". Leaving international politics and feelings aside (and not denying that they are there as I think my previous post shows that I am aware of the bad situations between the two countries) I'm not sure how the current Emperor could be a "pseudo"-Tenno, though.  Huh  He is the son of the late Showa Emperor who was in turn the son of the Taisho and the grandson of the Meiji emperors.  He is the Emperor of Japan and not some kind of impostor or usurper.

I think that it is very clear, though, that the two countries should not be tied together as a previous post listed, but that was due only to lack of information and not any kind of political or cultural preferences.

Ebor
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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 04:06:29 PM »

" extremely rude"?Why and how?

Es grosero hablar a otros en una lengua que no entienden porque los excluye de la discusión. Da la impresión que usted no quisiera que participaran en la discusión. Espero que aclara la regla para usted.
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2009, 04:57:56 PM »

" extremely rude"?Why and how?
Espero que aclara la regla para usted.
Why "天皇"is "extremely rude" and "Tenno"not? "Tenno" even is not a translation but transliteration. If somebody has no any idea about "天皇”,then how "Tenno"is more understandable to him?
And the rule is clear for me,I do not disagree.
I disagree such expressions:
To use any "漢字"=extremely rude on this forum
To use kanji=OK
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2009, 05:05:25 PM »

The title in English is "Tenno" which has a meaning of "Heavenly Light". Leaving international politics and feelings aside (and not denying that they are there as I think my previous post shows that I am aware of the bad situations between the two countries) I'm not sure how the current Emperor could be a "pseudo"-Tenno, though.  Huh  He is the son of the late Showa Emperor who was in turn the son of the Taisho and the grandson of the Meiji emperors.  He is the Emperor of Japan and not some kind of impostor or usurper.

I think that it is very clear, though, that the two countries should not be tied together as a previous post listed, but that was due only to lack of information and not any kind of political or cultural preferences.

Ebor

Such titles like: ""(Huang) "皇帝"(Huang-di) "天子"(tian-zi) bekong to the Emperor of central empire exclusively.
This is why the rulers of Jeseon were not "皇帝"(Huang-di) " but "(wang)"
Any one who is not acknowledged monarch of central empire but use the title of ""(Huang) "is an arrogant.
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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2009, 05:45:50 PM »

" extremely rude"?Why and how?
Espero que aclara la regla para usted.
Why "天皇"is "extremely rude" and "Tenno"not? "Tenno" even is not a translation but transliteration. If somebody has no any idea about "天皇”,then how "Tenno"is more understandable to him?
And the rule is clear for me,I do not disagree.
I disagree such expressions:
To use any "漢字"=extremely rude on this forum
To use kanji=OK


I'm really not sure whether or not you're being argumentative on purpose.  The issue isn't whether or not there's a word from a foreign language posted.  It's whether or not it's intelligible to most readers and allows them to continue to participate in the discussion.  Ebor's usage was perfectly fine because an explanation of what the word meant was provided in the same sentence.  Yours was unacceptable because in the first you provided no explanation whatsoever of what it meant.  The second was unacceptable because while you provided a transliteration (thanks, now I know how to pronounce it) but the audience is still left with no idea of what you're actually saying.  If it doesn't really translate to anything, that's fine, but at least give other posters some clue as to what it does mean, even if that takes a paragraph.

That being said, I now need translations for your latest entry.
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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2009, 07:31:01 PM »

By no means should Korea be grouped with Japan.
Unless we conquered Nihon,abolished the pseudo-天皇,and set those islands under the regnum of royal house 李...... Wink

Please provide an English translation for the characters above.  It is A) OC.net policy to provide English translations for anything outside of the designated fora and B) extremely rude to be participating in a discussion and switch to a language which most participants do not understand. ~Veniamin, Free-for-All moderator

天皇: one title of the emperor of Nihon
That's Japan to the rest of us.
Quote
李: family name of the royal house of Joseon
That's Korea in these parts.

Quote
" extremely rude"?Why and how?Do you think "Kyrie eleison" and "ICXC"on the icons are "extreme rude"for non greek-speakers?

I'm the wrong person to ask: I still insist on saying Peking. Shocked

The title in English is "Tenno" which has a meaning of "Heavenly Light". Leaving international politics and feelings aside (and not denying that they are there as I think my previous post shows that I am aware of the bad situations between the two countries) I'm not sure how the current Emperor could be a "pseudo"-Tenno, though.  Huh  He is the son of the late Showa Emperor who was in turn the son of the Taisho and the grandson of the Meiji emperors.  He is the Emperor of Japan and not some kind of impostor or usurper.

China, or should I say "The Middle [as in "Center of the World"] Kingdom," thinks it has the only emperor.  Sort of like the Roman Emperors in Constantinople complaining about the Franks usurping the title.  So it's not really that, in their eyes, that Showa and sons are pretenders to the throne, but that its a pretend monarchy, if not a pretend country.  But since they consider Japan a barbarian country, I am amused that they care.

Quote
I think that it is very clear, though, that the two countries should not be tied together as a previous post listed, but that was due only to lack of information and not any kind of political or cultural preferences.
Ebor

I agree.  But for the OP, think Pole-Russian, when you think of Korea-Japan.

Such titles like: ""(Huang) "皇帝"(Huang-di) "天子"(tian-zi) bekong to the Emperor of central empire exclusively.
This is why the rulers of Jeseon were not "皇帝"(Huang-di) " but "(wang)"

LOL. Yes, I'm sure the Koreans see it that way. Roll Eyes

Quote
Any one who is not acknowledged monarch of central empire but use the title of ""(Huang) "is an arrogant.

Would that be the Peking central committee now?

That being said, I now need translations for your latest entry.[/color]

Quote
The characters Huang (皇 huáng "god-king") and Di (帝 dì "sage king") had been used separately and never consecutively (see Three August Ones and Five Emperors). The character was reserved for mythological rulers until the first emperor of Qin (Qin Shi Huang), who created a new title Huangdi (皇帝 in pinyin: huáng dì) for himself in 221 BCE, which is commonly translated as Emperor in English. This title continued in use until the fall of the Qing dynasty in 1911.

Quote
Although formally the Son of Heaven (天子, pinyin: tiānzǐ), where the Heaven refers to the celestial heavens or the universe, the power of the emperor varied between emperors and dynasties, with some emperors being absolute rulers and others being figureheads with actual power lying in the hands of court factions, eunuchs, the bureaucracy or noble families. In principle, the title of emperor was transmitted from father to son via primogeniture, as endorsed by Confucianism. However, there are many exceptions to this rule. For example, because the Emperor usually had many concubines, the first born of the queen (i.e. the wife) is usually the heir apparent. However, Emperors could elevate another more favoured child or the child of a favourite concubine to the status of Crown Prince. Disputes over succession occurred regularly and have led to a number of civil wars. In the Qing dynasty, primogeniture was abandoned altogether, with the designated heir kept secret until after the Emperor's death.

Unlike the Japanese emperor for example, Chinese political theory allowed for a change of dynasty as imperial families could be replaced. This is based on the concept of "Mandate of Heaven." The theory behind this was that the Chinese emperor acted as the "Son of Heaven." As the only legitimate ruler, his authority extended to "All under heaven" and had neighbors only in a geographical sense. He holds a mandate to which he had a valid claim to rule over (or to lead) everyone else in the world as long as he served the people well. If the ruler became immoral, then rebellion is justified and heaven would take away that mandate and give it to another. This single most important concept legitimized the dynastic cycle or the change of dynasties regardless of social or ethnic background. This principle made it possible for dynasties founded by non-noble families such as Han Dynasty and Ming Dynasty or non-ethnic Han dynasties such as the Mongol-led Yuan Dynasty and Manchu-led Qing Dynasty. It was moral integrity and benevolent leadership that determined the holder of the "Mandate of Heaven." Every dynasty that self-consciously adopted this administrative practice powerfully reinforced this Sinocentric concept throughout the history of imperial China. Historians noted that this was one of the key reasons why imperial China in many ways had the most efficient system of government in ancient times.

Quote
The king or wang (王 wáng) was the Chinese head of state from the Zhou Dynasty to the Qin Dynasty. After that, wang (sometimes translated "prince") became merely the head of the hierarchy of noble ranks. The title was commonly given to members of the Emperor's family and could be inherited. A poem from about 2500 years ago said "普天之下,莫非王土.率土之賓,莫非王臣."which roughly translate to "under the sky, nothing isn't the king's land; the people who lead the lands, no one isn't the king's magistrates." It may have been used in the Xia and Shang dynasties, where oracle bones were found with the title wang,they also beat slaves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_sovereign#Emperor_Title

Yeah, its wikipedia.  But it's convenient, and here, accurate.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 07:54:35 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2009, 07:45:05 PM »

The title in English is "Tenno" which has a meaning of "Heavenly Light". Leaving international politics and feelings aside (and not denying that they are there as I think my previous post shows that I am aware of the bad situations between the two countries) I'm not sure how the current Emperor could be a "pseudo"-Tenno, though.  Huh  He is the son of the late Showa Emperor who was in turn the son of the Taisho and the grandson of the Meiji emperors.  He is the Emperor of Japan and not some kind of impostor or usurper.

I think that it is very clear, though, that the two countries should not be tied together as a previous post listed, but that was due only to lack of information and not any kind of political or cultural preferences.

Ebor

Such titles like: ""(Huang) "皇帝"(Huang-di) "天子"(tian-zi) bekong to the Emperor of central empire exclusively.
This is why the rulers of Jeseon were not "皇帝"(Huang-di) " but "(wang)"
Any one who is not acknowledged monarch of central empire but use the title of ""(Huang) "is an arrogant.

May I ask if by  "central empire" you are referring to that country that is known in English as China?  I do not read Chinese characters myself though I have know something of the history of that area. 

However, since Japan was not a vassal state of any dynasty of the Chinese, I'm afraid that I do not follow how they are "arrogant" to call their ruler an emperor in their own language. I wonder what the Byzantine Imperial line would have used as a title if they were having dealings with China...  Perhaps I am missing something. Anyway, "Tenno" is a Japanese word as is another title for the imperial person: Mikado which can translate as something like "Exalted Gate". 

Ebor
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2009, 07:54:42 PM »

The title in English is "Tenno" which has a meaning of "Heavenly Light". Leaving international politics and feelings aside (and not denying that they are there as I think my previous post shows that I am aware of the bad situations between the two countries) I'm not sure how the current Emperor could be a "pseudo"-Tenno, though.  Huh  He is the son of the late Showa Emperor who was in turn the son of the Taisho and the grandson of the Meiji emperors.  He is the Emperor of Japan and not some kind of impostor or usurper.

China, or should I say "The Middle [as in "Center of the World"] Kingdom," thinks it has the only emperor.  Sort of like the Roman Emperors in Constantinople complaining about the Franks usurping the title.  So it's not really that, in their eyes, that Showa and sons are pretenders to the throne, but that its a pretend monarchy, if not a pretend country.  But since they consider Japan a barbarian country, I am amused that they care.

Ah, that explains that, it would seem. Well, since Japan is clearly a real country as have been a number of countries with rulers who used the title of Emperor (the Byzantine Empire, Imperial Russia, Ethiopia etc) the claim to own a word would seem perhaps less then humble.  And considering that China has not had any kind of emperor in nearly a century since the  abdication of  Pu-yi, the Xuantong Emperor, the question of who has a "real" one may be ummm moot.  Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2009, 08:05:42 PM »

However, since Japan was not a vassal state of any dynasty of the Chinese, I'm afraid that I do not follow how they are "arrogant" to call their ruler an emperor in their own language. I wonder what the Byzantine Imperial line would have used as a title if they were having dealings with China...  Perhaps I am missing something. Anyway, "Tenno" is a Japanese word as is another title for the imperial person: Mikado which can translate as something like "Exalted Gate". 

Ebor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow

Quote
The kowtow was often performed in intra-Asian diplomatic relations as well. According to Annals of Joseon Dynasty, in 1596, Japanese Kampaku Toyotomi Hideyoshi who unified Japan had to kneel five times on the ground and hit his head three times on the ground (五拜三叩头礼), to show his vassal status to the Chinese Ming Dynasty.
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« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2009, 08:22:51 PM »

Thank you for the link, Samkin.  It is interesting but there are a couple of points.  First Toyatomi Hideyoshi was not the Emperor of Japan nor of the Imperial family.  He rose to the title of Kampaku or Regent. Therefore, if he did in fact do this, and more information and sources would be needed to learn more, it would not be a case of the Japanese Emperor acknowledging being a vassal of China. From my readings of Japanese history, I am also somewhat dubious that Toyatomi would actually have done this.  Among his other actions were two attempts to invade Ming China by going through Korea, the first in 1591 and the second in 1597.  Toyatomi died in 1598 in Fushimi Castle in Kyoto, Japan while the campaign was still underway, so this would have prevented any such submission.  His successor was Tokugawa Ieyasu the first of the Shoguns who would close the country to outside influences for over 2 centuries.   I can do some research in my books to see if that act is mentioned but it does not fit, as it were, with the person and culture and time.

I apologize for derailing the thread.

Ebor
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« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2009, 09:56:46 PM »

Thank you for the link, Samkin.
LOL this has happened several times on the forums, but my screen name is samkim, not samkin. My name is Sam Kim. Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2009, 07:57:08 AM »

I apologize for my mistake with your name.  I will try to be more careful in checking for typos.  I did not mean any offense and I know that Kim is a Korean name so I should have caught my error.

Ebor
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