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Author Topic: Christians Celebrating Pesach  (Read 2122 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rosehip
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« on: April 08, 2009, 10:22:26 PM »

..what do you think about it? Lots of my protestant friends are convinced that we should do this. We should receive communion on  Passover,etc. They say it's very meaningful to them as christians. Jewish people think it's very odd for Christians to celebrate Passover-at least on their own, aside from being invited to a real seder.
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 10:31:32 PM »

We do celebrate Pesach. Pascha = Greek for Pesach.
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Rosehip
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2009, 10:36:03 PM »

Well yes, in a sense. But Pascha is always one week after Pesach, never ON it (I kind of think it's too bad...). And I'm talking about seder and all.
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2009, 10:39:32 PM »

Well yes, in a sense. But Pascha is always one week after Pesach, never ON it (I kind of think it's too bad...). And I'm talking about seder and all.

The new seder is Holy Communion....
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Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2009, 10:56:30 PM »

..what do you think about it? Lots of my protestant friends are convinced that we should do this. We should receive communion on  Passover,etc. They say it's very meaningful to them as christians. Jewish people think it's very odd for Christians to celebrate Passover-at least on their own, aside from being invited to a real seder.
Read the texts for Paschal Matins. It lays out very clearly why our Pascha is the fulfilment of the old Pascha (Passover). There is no theological need for Christians to celebrate the Jewish Passover, which was only instituted by Moses as a 'type' of the true Pascha, i.e. the death and resurrection of Christ.
If it's just a matter of some Jewish friends inviting you over to celebrate, I don't suppose there's necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as you don't end up participating in something explicitly anti-Christian. I seem to recall there is the seder itself, which is explicitly religious and probably not good for a Christian to be involved in, followed by a more secular feast. Bear in mind it's Lent, too.
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 11:19:32 PM »

That's what I always thought too, Jonathan Gress. But for some reason it's "trendy"  in certain evangelical circles to try to do the whole seder thing etc. I'm not planning to take part in any Passover festivities. Just asking a question.
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2009, 11:32:50 PM »

That's what I always thought too, Jonathan Gress. But for some reason it's "trendy"  in certain evangelical circles to try to do the whole seder thing etc.

Evangelicals are starving for ritual. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2009, 11:42:30 PM »

That's what I always thought too, Jonathan Gress. But for some reason it's "trendy"  in certain evangelical circles to try to do the whole seder thing etc.

Evangelicals are starving for ritual. Smiley

You could well have hit upon something! And they can get very uppity about the fact that it must be done precisely ON Passover. Even our Orthodox custom of Pascha one week later doesn't hold much weight with some of them.
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 12:31:36 AM »

..what do you think about it? Lots of my protestant friends are convinced that we should do this. We should receive communion on  Passover,etc. They say it's very meaningful to them as christians. Jewish people think it's very odd for Christians to celebrate Passover-at least on their own, aside from being invited to a real seder.

Yes, it is very odd how "Evangelicals" will eshew the Tradition of the Apostolic Church and embrace the traditions of the Pharisees and scribes. Some good news.
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Rosehip
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 12:38:51 AM »

..what do you think about it? Lots of my protestant friends are convinced that we should do this. We should receive communion on  Passover,etc. They say it's very meaningful to them as christians. Jewish people think it's very odd for Christians to celebrate Passover-at least on their own, aside from being invited to a real seder.

Yes, it is very odd how "Evangelicals" will eshew the Tradition of the Apostolic Church and embrace the traditions of the Pharisees and scribes. Some good news.

Ah, but they would say they are embracing the tradition which Christ Himself-a Jew- took part in!
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 04:12:28 AM »

That's what I always thought too, Jonathan Gress. But for some reason it's "trendy"  in certain evangelical circles to try to do the whole seder thing etc.

Evangelicals are starving for ritual. Smiley

You could well have hit upon something! And they can get very uppity about the fact that it must be done precisely ON Passover. Even our Orthodox custom of Pascha one week later doesn't hold much weight with some of them.

Am I missing something here?
If April 16 is on a Thursday then Pesach ends on Midnight which is Holy Thursday. That is essentially a To Be Continuation of a fufillment of Creation Week which would be accomplished with Crucifixion on that night.
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 04:16:36 AM »

..what do you think about it? Lots of my protestant friends are convinced that we should do this. We should receive communion on  Passover,etc. They say it's very meaningful to them as christians. Jewish people think it's very odd for Christians to celebrate Passover-at least on their own, aside from being invited to a real seder.

Yes, it is very odd how "Evangelicals" will eshew the Tradition of the Apostolic Church and embrace the traditions of the Pharisees and scribes. Some good news.
Yup.  If they want to celebrate Pascha with the Jews, then they should become Jews.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 04:25:14 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 04:30:33 AM »

BTW, I just noticed that this thread was started in the Free-for-All parent board.  There's a sticky in that board that says specifically in ALL CAPS to not post anything in the FFA parent board.
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2009, 12:09:14 PM »

My apologies! I was not aware of this ruling!! Embarrassed
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 12:38:36 PM »

Canon VII of the Holy Apostles:

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed.
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 01:21:09 PM »

But, why? Why would that be so wrong?  Huh It's not that they'd be celebrating "with the jews"-they'd be having their own, separate services. This just strikes me as being sort of unnecessarily snobbish/exclusive/antagonistic.What was actually behind this rule?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 01:22:18 PM by Rosehip » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2009, 02:11:50 PM »

Canon VII of the Holy Apostles:

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed.
You miss the whole point of this thread, though.  Rosehip is talking about evangelical Protestants, whose faithful stand excommunicated already and whose "clergy" stand deposed already, celebrating Pascha/Easter with the Jews.  So what's the point of even bringing up this proscription against Orthodox clergy celebrating Pascha with the Jews?
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2009, 02:15:38 PM »

But, why? Why would that be so wrong?  Huh It's not that they'd be celebrating "with the jews"-they'd be having their own, separate services. This just strikes me as being sort of unnecessarily snobbish/exclusive/antagonistic.What was actually behind this rule?
Technically, these evangelical Protestants of whom you speak stand outside the Church and her authority, anyway.  So I don't see how we can even apply this apostolic rule against them.  If we were to argue the general wisdom of celebrating Pascha/Easter with the Jews, without citing inapplicable canons on the matter, then maybe we'll have a fruitful discussion.  (IOW, don't let Orthodox11's untimely and irrelevant citation of an Apostolic Canon sidetrack you. Wink)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 02:22:32 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Rosehip
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 02:51:20 PM »

Quote
If we were to argue the general wisdom of celebrating Pascha/Easter with the Jews, without citing inapplicable canons on the matter, then maybe we'll have a fruitful discussion.
 

Yes! Please, I would like to to have a discussion on this very topic, and look forward to everyone's imput! Thanks so much!
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 03:00:31 PM »

The canon that was cited refers to those who calculated Easter according to the old Passover date, while the tradition of the Church was to celebrate it on the following Sunday. I believe Rosehip was talking about holding actual Passover services, which is unacceptable for those who believe that Christ is the only true Passover.
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2009, 03:10:21 PM »

But I would now like to know why it was considered wrong for Christians to celebrate Pascha at the same time as the Passover. I've spoken to Evangelicals who think the Orthodox are much better in their Pascha than those who celebrate western Easter, but still they are disapproving of us for not celebrating Pascha on the actual Passover, which they feel would be closer to observing it as Jesus did-they think the symbolism would thus be even greater-and to a certain degree, I see their point. Sorry if I am not making myself clear.
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2009, 03:30:00 PM »

But, why? Why would that be so wrong?  Huh It's not that they'd be celebrating "with the jews"-they'd be having their own, separate services. This just strikes me as being sort of unnecessarily snobbish/exclusive/antagonistic.What was actually behind this rule?

Because Judaizing was then (which is why I cited the canon), and among certain Protestant groups today still is, a real problem. The Jewish Passover was a type, a symbol, of the Christian Passover. The freeing of the Jews from bondage in Egypt typified the freeing of all humanity from bondage to sin and death.

The reason for the "snobbish" canon, then, was twofold:
1. Holding the Christian Passover after the Jewish Passover served as an expression of this typology.
2. Ensuring that the two were celebrated on two different days opposed the Judaizing tendencies of certain groups who, by emphasizing the Jewish/Old Testament significance of the Feast over the Christian one, essentially undermined the saving work of Christ and 'missed the point' of the whole thing.
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2009, 03:39:56 PM »

But, why? Why would that be so wrong?  Huh It's not that they'd be celebrating "with the jews"-they'd be having their own, separate services. This just strikes me as being sort of unnecessarily snobbish/exclusive/antagonistic.What was actually behind this rule?

Because Judaizing was then (which is why I cited the canon), and among certain Protestant groups today still is, a real problem. The Jewish Passover was a type, a symbol, of the Christian Passover. The freeing of the Jews from bondage in Egypt typified the freeing of all humanity from bondage to sin and death.

The reason for the "snobbish" canon, then, was twofold:
1. Holding the Christian Passover after the Jewish Passover served as an expression of this typology.
2. Ensuring that the two were celebrated on two different days opposed the Judaizing tendencies of certain groups who, by emphasizing the Jewish/Old Testament significance of the Feast over the Christian one, essentially undermined the saving work of Christ and 'missed the point' of the whole thing.
The whole point then, as I see it, is that, though the Christian faith has its roots in God's self-revelation to the Jews, the faith is something much bigger and much fuller than the faith of the Jews and must therefore never be confined to Jewish religious practice.  I think this is what Jesus meant when He spoke of the folly of putting new wine into old wineskins--you just cannot do this without exploding the old skins.  So let the Jews do their thing.  Christians, however, have received a much fuller revelation and a much higher calling.  So why should we even care what the Jews do in their religious festivals?  Why should we even connect our feasts to theirs?
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2009, 03:50:23 PM »

^^Thanks, gentlemen. This is precisely what I've been telling those evangelicals who insist upon observing  the Jewish Passover by receiving Holy Communion and who fuss that we Orthodox have it "almost right, but not quite" with our Pascha. However, they don't really listen, and think all Christian holy days are pagan and that we should only be observing the Jewish Holy Days/Festivals-or at least Pesach and Sukkoth (I think it was Sukkoth). This is what got me thinking about all of this in the first place. And I've asked my Jewish friends what they think about all of this, and they say to them it's completely silly for Christians to even think about observing their Passover (and in their own way, they are right in saying this, likely).
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2009, 04:14:45 PM »

^^Thanks, gentlemen. This is precisely what I've been telling those evangelicals who insist upon observing  the Jewish Passover by receiving Holy Communion and who fuss that we Orthodox have it "almost right, but not quite" with our Pascha. However, they don't really listen, and think all Christian holy days are pagan and that we should only be observing the Jewish Holy Days/Festivals-or at least Pesach and Sukkoth (I think it was Sukkoth). This is what got me thinking about all of this in the first place. And I've asked my Jewish friends what they think about all of this, and they say to them it's completely silly for Christians to even think about observing their Passover (and in their own way, they are right in saying this, likely).
Yeah, there's a lot of this "pagan = bad" misconception among many Christians today.  The Orthodox Church has throughout its entire history sought to incorporate and sanctify those pagan practices that can be used to glorify Christ and point our minds and hearts to Him, so why should we stop now? Smiley  (IIRC, there's even a very recent thread on this Religious Topics board where we talk about this.)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 04:16:49 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2013, 01:46:42 PM »

What were the reasons for the canons forbidding celebrating passover with the Jews? Was it because the last Jewish Christians had died out? Because of a logical transition from Jewish practices not being required to not being done?
What were the Judaizing tendencies that the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council wanted to avoid?
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2013, 02:19:52 PM »

What were the Judaizing tendencies that the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council wanted to avoid?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism
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