Author Topic: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church  (Read 1807 times)

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Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2015, 12:33:31 AM »
I have no recommendation.   The whole situation is a tragedy.  But my thought is maybe His Holiness the Coptic Pope and his fellow Armenian and Ethiopian patriarchs, who are extremely holy and learned men, who are used to dealing with church disputes, and are neutral third parties, could through formal arbitration with the Patriarch of Antioch and the Catholicos of the East come up with a solution, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, that the vast majority of Orthodox Nasranis could accept.   Remember the two Armenian Catholicoi were in a horrible schism towards each other due to persecution by the Soviet Union, but managed to fix it so completely that the current Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin used to be the Catholicos of Cilicia.  So my thought is if anyone can fix it, they can.   But for such arbitration to have a chance of success everyone in the entire Orthodox St. Thomas community would have to pray for it to work, and pledge absolute faith in, and obedience to, the five other Oriental patriarchs, as faithful prelates acting with perfect Justice through the Grace of the Holy Spirit.   If from the start people questioned it, or the partiality of the five primates, it would fail.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2015, 12:14:22 PM »
Please come and spend one year with us in India.. 6 months with each jurisdiction.. and then recommend to us how to solve this.

QFT.

In recent months a handful of posters have joined these boards who seem to regard the exotic Christians of the East and our hierarchs as a colorful cast of semi-imaginary characters from an RPG or comic book to be maneuvered about as they see fit according to their conception of who we are, what we are, what we believe, and what some obscure British anthropologist has documented our customs as being.  They're always quick to throw out a colorful, eye-catching term unfamiliar to most Westerners - like debtera - complete with the obligatory explanatory hyperlink (usually to Wikipedia) - to show us that they are conversant in the relevant terminology and we should all be impressed with their erudition and familiarity with our cultures, all the while demonstrating that said familiarity is largely superficial or illusory, the product of a handful of conversations with recent immigrants they met in college or at Whole Foods (while shopping for naan, because they're so cosmopolitan) and what they've read in books.  We're all very impressed, guys.  You can stop now.  Before Mor Ephrem and I have to make the Oriental Orthodox equivalent of this video.

Just so people know before they click on the video, it contains obscenities.
Salpy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 01:47:11 PM by Salpy »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2015, 12:23:30 PM »
^Post of the month.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2015, 01:49:11 PM »
Guys, I think the posters here have the best of intentions.  People are still learning about us.  Let's be patient and try to be nice.   :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 01:54:44 PM by Salpy »

Offline Aram

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2015, 01:58:43 PM »
Remember the two Armenian Catholicoi were in a horrible schism towards each other due to persecution by the Soviet Union, but managed to fix it so completely that the current Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin used to be the Catholicos of Cilicia. 
Nope. The previous Catholicos of Etchmiadzin, Karekin I, was indeed Catholicos of Cilicia (as Karekin II). The current Catholicos, Karekin II, was elected to replace him.

And, just so you know, the two Catholicosates are not out of communion with each other, even during the Soviet era. There are indeed disputes over jurisdiction in North and South America, and certainly political differences, too, but it has never stopped the two catholicoi from recognizing the other as canonical.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 02:03:01 PM by Aram »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2015, 02:11:10 PM »
Please come and spend one year with us in India.. 6 months with each jurisdiction.. and then recommend to us how to solve this.

QFT.

In recent months a handful of posters have joined these boards who seem to regard the exotic Christians of the East and our hierarchs as a colorful cast of semi-imaginary characters from an RPG or comic book to be maneuvered about as they see fit according to their conception of who we are, what we are, what we believe, and what some obscure British anthropologist has documented our customs as being.  They're always quick to throw out a colorful, eye-catching term unfamiliar to most Westerners - like debtera - complete with the obligatory explanatory hyperlink (usually to Wikipedia) - to show us that they are conversant in the relevant terminology and we should all be impressed with their erudition and familiarity with our cultures, all the while demonstrating that said familiarity is largely superficial or illusory, the product of a handful of conversations with recent immigrants they met in college or at Whole Foods (while shopping for naan, because they're so cosmopolitan) and what they've read in books.  We're all very impressed, guys.  You can stop now.  Before Mor Ephrem and I have to make the Oriental Orthodox equivalent of this video.

Just so people know before they click on the video, it contains obscenities.
Salpy


We've come a long way from JamesR's "ganja smoking Afro-Caribbean Rasta spirituality", haven't we? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2015, 06:09:17 PM »
Guys, I think the posters here have the best of intentions.  People are still learning about us.  Let's be patient and try to be nice.   :)

Absolutely!  :)

And for the record, it's not people who are still learning about us asking questions that I find irksome.  It's the guys who are still learning but state everything in an authoritative manner as if they're knowledgeable about our communities, necessitating things like Aram's correction in post # 49.  It's not just this thread, it's like 3 guys posting all over the place lately.  I'm this close to making one of those Willy Wonka memes that says, "You talked to an Ethiopian guy in a bus shelter once?  Tell me more about Oriental Orthodoxy".

We've come a long way from JamesR's "ganja smoking Afro-Caribbean Rasta spirituality", haven't we?

Maybe.  At least James didn't beat us over the head with his "specialized" (read: Googled and Wikified) vocabulary.  Nowadays it'd go something like this: James mentions the "ganja smoking Afro-Caribbean Rasta spirituality" of our communion and in response some wannabe Jeopardy champ who is not even Orthodox comes through sideways with some longwinded comment about, "Actually, that's not surprising considering that the Jewish influence in Ethiopia dates back to...and if I'm not mistaken the saffron robes of Tibetan Buddhist monks...while the influence of the Sadhu on both the Rastafari and the Christians of Kerala...and the Akha people of Burma...And Moab, he layeth us down by to the band of the Canaanites, and yea, though the Hindus speak of karma...which presumably means that..." and then just draws a totally ridiculous conclusion but states it in absolute terms because they're convinced that they know what they're talking about when they don't.  And all of that would still be tolerable if they didn't try to correct posters who are actually from the communities in question about our own history, jurisdictions, and communion.  I'll take JamesR over that any day.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2015, 07:28:37 PM »
Guys, I think the posters here have the best of intentions.  People are still learning about us.  Let's be patient and try to be nice.   :)

Absolutely!  :)

And for the record, it's not people who are still learning about us asking questions that I find irksome.  It's the guys who are still learning but state everything in an authoritative manner as if they're knowledgeable about our communities, necessitating things like Aram's correction in post # 49.  It's not just this thread, it's like 3 guys posting all over the place lately.  I'm this close to making one of those Willy Wonka memes that says, "You talked to an Ethiopian guy in a bus shelter once?  Tell me more about Oriental Orthodoxy".

We've come a long way from JamesR's "ganja smoking Afro-Caribbean Rasta spirituality", haven't we?

Maybe.  At least James didn't beat us over the head with his "specialized" (read: Googled and Wikified) vocabulary.  Nowadays it'd go something like this: James mentions the "ganja smoking Afro-Caribbean Rasta spirituality" of our communion and in response some wannabe Jeopardy champ who is not even Orthodox comes through sideways with some longwinded comment about, "Actually, that's not surprising considering that the Jewish influence in Ethiopia dates back to...and if I'm not mistaken the saffron robes of Tibetan Buddhist monks...while the influence of the Sadhu on both the Rastafari and the Christians of Kerala...and the Akha people of Burma...And Moab, he layeth us down by to the band of the Canaanites, and yea, though the Hindus speak of karma...which presumably means that..." and then just draws a totally ridiculous conclusion but states it in absolute terms because they're convinced that they know what they're talking about when they don't.  And all of that would still be tolerable if they didn't try to correct posters who are actually from the communities in question about our own history, jurisdictions, and communion.  I'll take JamesR over that any day.

I've fallen in love with you.  It's really bad...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2015, 11:24:06 PM »
My profuse apologies if I was one of the self-effacing chaps alluded to.  I joined this forum to learn and not to exalt myself over others with my limited knowledge, which is why I describe myself as an amateur.   :(

I simply wanted to ask if any thought was being given to the idea of asking the other OO Patriarchs to arbitrate to resolve this awful schism, since they appear to be uninterested parties.  I do not ascribe to them magical powers; they're devout monks who were chosen to be bishops, and who have good political skills.  If I believed in superhuman bishops Id be a Roman Catholic.  :-P

But it does seem to me that the idea of a neutral arbitration process could really help, if the MOSC and Jacobites were fully behind it.  But I have no idea on how to solve this, and I am sure the Syriac Orthodox affected by this are quite miserable.  So please forgive me brethren.

By the way do we even have any experts on the Ethiopian church?  OT question I realize, but I have a ton of questions and legitimate English language documentation is scarce and unreliable; my Oxford Handbook of Christian worship, the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia (itself horribly dated and biased), Wikipedia and the Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity all contain contradictory statements about it.  And it seems a lot of the apparent Ethiopian Orthodox we get here are actually Rastas, not wanting to pass judgement on anyone, but I take a dim view on marijuana and I believe the Ethiopians do as well, so I don't entirely trust their answers.

But forgive me my brethren if I have annoyed you.  I joined the boards to learn and in search of fellowship due to the unpleasant situation of caring for my parents and so on, and I don't want to appear to lord it over anyone.  Before I became Orthodox I would describe myself as a vainglorious glutton; I've gone from 275 lbs to 190 but perhaps relatively speaking I'm still a pompous windbag.   :-[
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 11:28:47 PM by wgw »
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2015, 12:03:45 AM »
My profuse apologies if I was one of the self-effacing chaps alluded to.  I joined this forum to learn and not to exalt myself over others with my limited knowledge, which is why I describe myself as an amateur.   :(

Don't worry about it.  Although you're one of the folks I had in mind, you're far from the most grievous offender.  You actually seem a decent enough fellow and don't try to pass yourself off as some sort of insufferable (wannabe) genius who's generally impressed with his own body of knowledge (read: what he's able to Google) concerning any obscure subject anyone would care to discuss on these boards, including certain aspects of our communion.

I simply wanted to ask if any thought was being given to the idea of asking the other OO Patriarchs to arbitrate to resolve this awful schism, since they appear to be uninterested parties.  I do not ascribe to them magical powers; they're devout monks who were chosen to be bishops, and who have good political skills.  If I believed in superhuman bishops Id be a Roman Catholic.  :-P

I never had the impression that you regarded our bishops as being superhumans, but you do seem to discuss them as if they were - as I said - characters in a video game that you can maneuver around and deploy as you see fit.  You - and others - seem to discuss a lot of things pertaining to our communion in a purely theoretical sense that gives one the impression that you're not altogether convinced we aren't faeries or something, like your warnings to Mor about his Catholicos infringing upon the prerogatives and titles of the Church of the East's patriarch.

But it does seem to me that the idea of a neutral arbitration process could really help, if the MOSC and Jacobites were fully behind it.  But I have no idea on how to solve this, and I am sure the Syriac Orthodox affected by this are quite miserable. 

You may be onto something.  You're not the first person to suggest this.

So please forgive me brethren.

Please forgive me too.

By the way do we even have any experts on the Ethiopian church?  OT question I realize, but I have a ton of questions and legitimate English language documentation is scarce and unreliable; my Oxford Handbook of Christian worship, the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia (itself horribly dated and biased), Wikipedia and the Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity all contain contradictory statements about it.  And it seems a lot of the apparent Ethiopian Orthodox we get here are actually Rastas, not wanting to pass judgement on anyone, but I take a dim view on marijuana and I believe the Ethiopians do as well, so I don't entirely trust their answers.

PM me.

But forgive me my brethren if I have annoyed you.  I joined the boards to learn and in search of fellowship due to the unpleasant situation of caring for my parents and so on, and I don't want to appear to lord it over anyone.  Before I became Orthodox I would describe myself as a vainglorious glutton; I've gone from 275 lbs to 190 but perhaps relatively speaking I'm still a pompous windbag.   :-[

Again, forgive me too.  I suppose that I've been biting my tongue about some of the know-it-all-know-nothing, patronizing, cultural-voyeur-enchanted-by-the-exotic-East-ortho-hipsterism that's been flowing on these boards like so much Pabst Blue Ribbon in recent months and the detached, theoretical tone of some of your posts here addressing a very real and visceral problem discussed in this thread prompted me to vent my spleen.  I truly ask your forgiveness for any offense.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2015, 05:27:57 AM »
No offense at all, Antonious.  By the way, I didn't realize Mor was MOSC, but I also had no idea that MOSC was canonical until Imjoined this forum.  I had only read things from the Jacobite perspective and also the very unpleasant writings of Fr. Tarazi.  What I see now is a complex tragic schism has developed.

Regarding the Catholicos of the East, I do actually care about that title, because Imwant recomciliation to occur between the Syriac Orthodox and the Nestorian Assyrians.   They are so cultural similar and have a common enemy in the form of ISIL.  So I do think the title of the Catholicos of the MOSC is relevant in the grand scheme of ecumenical recomciliation.  Of course the MOSC seems rather fond of the title, and increasingly within the Assyrian church the Catholicos is referred to as the Patriarch, so it may be a complete non-issue.   

And let me be clear about this: ecumenical reconciliation is not to me a game, a video game, board game or any other sort of amusement.  I do not engage in thinking about it for fun.  The schisms which rend the church are the worst things in existence next to the devil and his demons IMO.   It took much prayerful discern,ent for me to figure out which apostolic church to join once I realized I could no longer be Methodist (and I do t disclose the identity of this church on OC.net publically, but you and a few other trusted friends know it).  And the fact that church isn't in communion with the other three breaks my heart.  In the case of the Catholics, most of their problems lie in their polity and in the Latin Rite, but in the case of the Eastern, Oriental and Assyrian churches you have three ancient churches that IMO worship the same way, sing the same Trisagion, and were once united.   It took me a great deal of wrestling with my conscience to decide that such reconciliation is even a good idea; I for a time was intimate friends with a ROCA priest who tried cery hard to sell me on the idea that ecumenical reconciliation is heretical, but the lack of concern for the persecuted Christians in the Misdle East his position implied indicated the wrongness of his position.  But I hate schisms, I hate schisms and I don't enjoy in any sense contemplating how to fix them; as I see it much prayer is needed.

I don't want them to dissolve into a single Eastern Church, but rather, to simply be in a state of communion, even limited intercommunion.  I don't want to see the liturgical diversity lost.  But survival of the Christian Faith in the face of Islamic aggression requires unity.  If the Assyrians, Syriac Orthodox, Ayriac Catholics, Chaldeans and Maronites, together with the Antiochians, Melkites and other Christians, stood together, they might be able to secure and carve out an area for a Christian homeland in the Middle East when the dust settles, and nothing would make me happier.  And there is nothing I'm more upset about than the 150 Christians (the Telegraph says they're "Assyrian Catholic" which could mean any of the Syriac churches) ISIL has taken prisoner, and is probably going to be killed.

But you haven't offended me.  You and I have been friends since I joined the forum, and I'll readily admit my academic, distractable style of writing posts needs improvement.  I don't believe I'm the pompous fatuous pedantic gourmand that I was before I became Orthodox, but my sins still affect me like scars.

Now, it thrills me to note that you think the neutral arbitration process might work.  And I am glad other people are talking about it.  But I think for it to work, it would require the absolute support of both churches down to the majority of individual parishioners, and total transparency.  The other good option might be to preserve the status quo ante, while at the same time encouraging members of each church to do generous things for members of the other, to allow for a slow healing and warming.
And I'm sure there are more approaches that would work.  But this schism is deeply unpleasant.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 05:36:02 AM by wgw »
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2015, 04:53:05 AM »
Well we have started rolling haven't we.  :)

WGW, has suggested approaching the other OO Patriarchs to form a commission and impose a solution. Not a bad idea, I think most OO Patriarchs do have views on the subject but they
1. Prefer things sorting out by themselves. After all it has just been 100 years and in Orthodox time a century with a few years here and there is not really a big deal. Plenty of jurisdictional issues have hanged on of a lot more. 

The problem as Dhinuus said is the lack of a black swan events in India. We have no Isis, no Ottoman pogrom, no large scale slaughter, no large earthquakes, no tsunamis nothing. We have good salubrious air, plenty of good food, courts that don't settle issues till the original plaintiffs have passed away, a political executive worried only about taking care of its vote bank and so on .
All in all we have excellent ingredients for the fight to prolong for the next 2 generations. So predictably we take advantage of all the good things in life.

Otherwise all this would have been settled long back.  Levity aside there are some issues of course but nothing really substantial. With time things should be sorted out.


Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2015, 05:55:14 AM »
Jobin,

I would suggest that atleast considering the fairly constructive direction the thread had moved to, let us avoid raising these issues at what occurred at my parish or my cousins wedding . Believe me for every instance of IOC "persecution" you cite, I can raise 2 instances of Jacobite aggressiveness, violent attacks directed at priests, un-ethical use of influence money and muscle and so on.

As I said earlier, ugly incidents are symptomatic of differences that lie underneath. If the issues can be addressed then such ugliness will not occur. 

Saying that 99.999% belong to my church and only .001% to the other does not sway me, the Parish was built for Orthodox worship as part of the Malankara church.  Just because 99.999% have supposedly chosen to secede and follow their fad does not mean that the alleged .001% who wish to remain in the Malankara church forfeit their rights.  Had they not filed cases, would you have allowed them to use the cemetery or the church.  If no then what are you complaining about.

You say that the few of your parish members jumped to the MOSC side for self benefit.  Bless you but I it made me smile.  For the first time in my life, I have heard somebody claim that joining the MOSC can bring personal benefit (that too for laity).  Usually it is always the other way around, you get to spend from your pocket for the privilege of being Orthodox :)
Or did you for a moment confuse the MOSC for the Malankara Catholic church :)

Kandanad is a diocese of great repute in the MOSC,  no less than 2 Diocesan Metropolitans of the Kandanad diocese have become Catholicoi.  Somebody reading your post will get the impression that all that the MOSC has in Kandanad is some turn-coat parishioners trying to capture churches by filing suits.
Besides such claimed "99.99%" numbers can only even be claimed in the 2-3 dioceses the Jacobites predominate in. So  is possible let us tone it down a bit.  And don't even get me started on the "learn Orthodoxy" bit.


Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2015, 10:10:26 AM »
Wow, Suraj.  You were off to a great start, at least.  I began reading your post with hope, nodding my head in agreement, and then before my eyes it devolved into yet another stage in the conflict.  You began by suggesting that Jobin not indulge in less than productive recounting of stories which might scandalize those reading here and derail the constructive direction the thread had taken, and then within two breaths you characterized his Church as a "fad" and its members as "secessionists", and from there your post degenerated even further until it became yet another rejoinder in this endless game of back-and-forth.  I certainly take your point, at any rate.  This conflict won't be ending any time soon.
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Online jobin219

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2015, 01:20:00 PM »
Jobin,

I would suggest that atleast considering the fairly constructive direction the thread had moved to, let us avoid raising these issues at what occurred at my parish or my cousins wedding . Believe me for every instance of IOC "persecution" you cite, I can raise 2 instances of Jacobite aggressiveness, violent attacks directed at priests, un-ethical use of influence money and muscle and so on.

As I said earlier, ugly incidents are symptomatic of differences that lie underneath. If the issues can be addressed then such ugliness will not occur. 

Saying that 99.999% belong to my church and only .001% to the other does not sway me, the Parish was built for Orthodox worship as part of the Malankara church.  Just because 99.999% have supposedly chosen to secede and follow their fad does not mean that the alleged .001% who wish to remain in the Malankara church forfeit their rights. Had they not filed cases, would you have allowed them to use the cemetery or the church.  If no then what are you complaining about.

You say that the few of your parish members jumped to the MOSC side for self benefit.  Bless you but I it made me smile.  For the first time in my life, I have heard somebody claim that joining the MOSC can bring personal benefit (that too for laity).  Usually it is always the other way around, you get to spend from your pocket for the privilege of being Orthodox :)
Or did you for a moment confuse the MOSC for the Malankara Catholic church :)

Kandanad is a diocese of great repute in the MOSC,  no less than 2 Diocesan Metropolitans of the Kandanad diocese have become Catholicoi.  Somebody reading your post will get the impression that all that the MOSC has in Kandanad is some turn-coat parishioners trying to capture churches by filing suits.
Besides such claimed "99.99%" numbers can only even be claimed in the 2-3 dioceses the Jacobites predominate in. So  is possible let us tone it down a bit.  And don't even get me started on the "learn Orthodoxy" bit.



Suraj chetai, I honesty do not know where to begin with your post. But I'll try.

You ask me to avoid giving scenarios, but as this is a public forum where Orthodox Christians from across the globe commune, I think I have every right and its actually a responsibility to share the truth. These are not mere isolated incidents, but personal and first hand experience of what is happening in Malankara. Okay, as I have provided two incidences of persecution, I ask you to share two each ie) four cases where the Jacobite faithful have acted in aggressiveness. To the best of my knowledge, the Jacobite church has only taken a defensive stance in every situation of conflict. Every court case was filed by IOC and the Jacobite faithful (generally the majority in that parish) were forced to file a counter case to protect their interests. Like I shared in my analogy, why should we give up something our forefathers built?

Case in point, Puthupally Pally (St. George Orthodox Church Puthuppally). It is a very prominent church and a pilgrim centre, also one of my favourite churches in Kerala. There is a large minority of Jacobites living in that area whose families were members of the parish long before the schism. Now if those families wished, they could of taken the stance normally done by IOC and filed case after case saying they have a right to use that church. If that happened, then there would be sharing of services similar to what I described happens in my home parish. But the Jacobite members did the noble thing, and built their own parish St.George Syrian Orthodox Church (Puthupally Patriarchal Church) Why doesn't IOC do the same when in comes to Piravom, Manarcadu, or Kolencherry, all of which are majority Jacobite parishes? The reason is that these churches are some of the richest in Kerala in terms of annual donations from the thousands of pilgrims who visit. As controlling these parishes is quite lucrative, IOC files cases there to take possession.

Yes those churches were built for Orthodox worship in Malankara. They were built by our forefathers, who were steadfastly loyal to the Malankara Church which is and always shall be an integral part of the Holy Syriac Orthodox Church and their generation, and all generation following them will remain loyal to the Throne of Antioch and the Successor of St. Peter HH the Patriarch. It is quite an insult to say that we are following some radical fad, or new ideology. The Church in Malankara has and shall be a part of the Mother Church. We are the Malanakara church, we did not secede from anything or anyone. We are continuing in the footsteps of Saints like Parumala Thirumeni who until his last breath remained loyal to Antioch. This is what I absolutely hate about the IOC narrative of church history. Its as if we became part of the Syriac Church only 50 years ago. Their narrative wipes out centuries of history, and countless saints who gave their life for Malankara and the Throne of Antioch.

I am glad I made you smile :) If this is the first time you heard that, then you need to get out more often, or atleast speak to people in Kerala. Luckily for all those who do jump ship and go to MOSC, the diocese pays all the legal fees, will arrange the bus full of thugs and anything else required. Its poor Jacobites who really pay out of pocket. No, I did not confuse MOSC for Malankara Catholic Church. But its only because of this schism created by MOSC that the Malanakara Catholic Church exists. Everyone knows that during the early days of the schism, a high level delegation sent letters to to the Roman Catholic Church asking to take them in. Mar Ivanios played a key role, but it was the MOSC synod as a whole who considered and even had communication with the Catholics. When the case came to MOSC favour, they abandoned the idea, but Mar Ivanios, feeling sidelined by the rest of the synod for not getting a better position, decided to continue talks with the Catholics, under the guise of "reunion." The rest they say is history...

I would like to conclude my post by saying this. Is unity ideal? Yes, and I wish that could happen. How beautiful would it to be to have a single united Orthodox Church in Malankara. Sadly, I don't see it happening any time soon. So lets look at peace. I want true peace in Malankara. But who defines peace? What is peace to a Jacobite, isn't the same as it is to someone in MOSC. The Jacobite Church has every right to exist, and we have every right to continue in the way of our forefathers who toiled for the church. If the Jacobite church must give up its relations with SOC, to be absorbed and amalgamated into MOSC for peace to occur, then I will loudly object to that so called "peace."


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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2015, 01:23:43 PM »
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2015, 02:22:42 AM »
I knew it would sound harsh, but you guys must realize that we cannot pretend that there are no claims and counter-claims.  If there is a constructive discussion going on,  lets keep it at that. If you raise claims then it is fair for me to raise counter-claims as well.

But if somebody comes up and says the IOC did this , did that then you have to take it on the chin when I lay it out to you as well. 

Anybody who has spend some time really going into the details of what is going in Malankara knows what I saying has truth in it.  Nikolas, as harsh as it sounds, if you listen to theological opinions held by some Jacobites regarding the Primacy of Peter you will characterize it much worse than a fad.  If the unity of the church in India is sought to be overturned then there is no word other than secession.

Indeed the Jacobites do not see it that way, but I am just giving you my POV.

Dear Jobin,

A murderous wave of attacks against priests, policemen and laity,  illegal entries into churches, priests being stomped on kicked by bishops with Phd's, corrupt officials being corrupted to smuggle in vestments of a chief hierarch; these are some of the things I have seen with my own eyes from the Jacobite side.  Arguments claiming the Orthodox are heretics, without sacraments without the priesthood is what I have heard from some of your bishops.   All this is what I have seen and heard in my own time.
I cannot accept what I have seen myself as Christian acts, it may surprise you but I began as somebody very sympathetic to the Jacobite position. 

Unfortunately the Jacobite position after 2005 has been one of division. The only logic being followed is of creating such an atrocious situation where a forcible partition of the Church is forced upon us.  You ask why we don't leave the Churches we are in a minority, does it occur to you that we don't see the need the leave parishes that belong to the Malankara church. 
In our opinion by creating a separate organization you are separating from the Church.  You can do so but not by forcing partition. If your people in Puthupally decide to leave and build a church facing the mother parish, what I can do about it. I personally grieve that people left the mother church but that was the decision taken by the Jacobite members and their advisers.

Your solution is for us to leave whichever churches you guys want us to leave, my solution is for us to find structures to be put into place for us to live together.  In my opinion the Jacobite party decided to abandon the process of finding a solution.

As as I said, for each instance you cite , I can cite another.  I still am not interested in a tit for tat, each word just causes more bad blood but remember that if you see things in black and white terms then there can hardly be any attempt to find a middle ground.

Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2015, 02:29:49 AM »
Let us again return to where we started off. What I said I said without rancour and hatred.  The members of the Jacobite church are the flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood.

Focusing on what occurred in X parish or what Y said or Z did is not edifying.  If we sit down to find the right and wrongs of each petty act, we will never get anywhere.  Even when I raise such issues, I feel that we are getting out bitterness get the better of us.   All of us personally caught in a vicious  cycle, we are as much victims as participants.

Another note of caution to non-Indians, as bad as it sometimes get things are not that bad always on the ground. Sometimes we exhibit great goodwill to each other.  You have to see it to believe it though.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2015, 10:16:19 AM »

Your solution is for us to leave whichever churches you guys want us to leave, my solution is for us to find structures to be put into place for us to live together.  In my opinion the Jacobite party decided to abandon the process of finding a solution.

Suraj,
This is not true. You are not willing to find mutually agreed upon structures to be put in place. You want the autonomous faction to abandon their position completely; accept they were wrong all along; and accept the structures that the autocephelous faction has put in place unconditionally.. and if so you will allow communion with the SOC. This is the fact. I am not saying if that is right or wrong.  And the autocephalous faction wants to impose on the autonomous faction and force them to accept these terms for communion.

Some extremists bishops with in the IOC even want the Patriarch to publicly apologize as a precondition for any communion talks.

What the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East is saying is that; he is not going to force anything. Whatever comes has to be based on discussions between the two faction in Malankara and he is willing to accept it. What he suggested as practical is that ; let us establish full mutual communion and withdraw all civil cases and let individual parish churches be with the autonomous or autocephalous faction based on majority opinion of each parish church.

And over a period of time these two OO churches existing in communion with each other can enter into unity as the love and mutual respect grows.

You personally want the autonomous faction to unite and submit to the autocephalous church. The irony that I find is that you have no respect for the autonomous faction or for any of the positions they hold. Shouldn't love and mutual respect be the first thing that should happen before any unity?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 10:16:58 AM by dhinuus »
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Offline dhinuus

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2015, 10:28:18 AM »
Let us again return to where we started off. What I said I said without rancour and hatred.  The members of the Jacobite church are the flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood.

Find it hard to believe after your sentiments expressed above.

The two factions may have the same faith.. but very different approaches... the best short term solution is establishing communion and staying as two jurisdictions. If in the future they two factions can come together and unite.. thats great.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 10:55:25 AM by dhinuus »
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2015, 10:45:34 AM »
Just wondering, do real life people even consider these church issues at all? thanks.

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2015, 11:29:35 AM »
Just wondering, do real life people even consider these church issues at all? thanks.

Yes, they do.  Unless brown people suddenly are not "real life people". 
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2015, 03:56:44 PM »
I knew it would sound harsh, but you guys must realize that we cannot pretend that there are no claims and counter-claims.  If there is a constructive discussion going on,  lets keep it at that. If you raise claims then it is fair for me to raise counter-claims as well.

Fair enough.  But I don't think that characterizing an entire church as a "fad" falls under the heading of "counter-claims".  It seems more like you're questioning the legitimacy of the MSOC en toto and its right to exist.

Nikolas, as harsh as it sounds, if you listen to theological opinions held by some Jacobites regarding the Primacy of Peter you will characterize it much worse than a fad.


I've heard some of those arguments and I'm not sold on them.  I've also heard some arguments advanced by the MOSC - some very arguments very crucial to their raison d'etre- that I've found less than compelling.  I wouldn't characterize either church as a fad though.  Just separated Orthodox believers.

If the unity of the church in India is sought to be overturned then there is no word other than secession.

Indeed the Jacobites do not see it that way, but I am just giving you my POV.

Fair enough, I suppose.  I guess one would have to determine which of the two factions were following the church's original course in order to determine which of the two had seceded from the other.  Not any easy thing to do, I suppose, as the arguments advanced by both sides in this thread alone would seem compelling if considered in isolation.
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2015, 06:30:27 PM »
But I don't think that characterizing an entire church as a "fad" falls under the heading of "counter-claims".  It seems more like you're questioning the legitimacy of the MSOC en toto and its right to exist.

From the context of Suraj's post, I thought it was clear he was not referring to "the MSOC en toto" as a "fad".  Suraj wrote:

Quote
Saying that 99.999% belong to my church and only .001% to the other does not sway me, the Parish was built for Orthodox worship as part of the Malankara church.  Just because 99.999% have supposedly chosen to secede and follow their fad does not mean that the alleged .001% who wish to remain in the Malankara church forfeit their rights.  Had they not filed cases, would you have allowed them to use the cemetery or the church.  If no then what are you complaining about.


He's clearly talking about a hypothetical situation within a parish where a super majority votes for a certain plan.  He's referring to that as the "fad".  In other words, the "fad" is "switching jurisdictions", not "the jurisdiction itself".  If a similar super majority voted for Pentecostal style prayer meetings to replace Vespers on Saturday evenings and Suraj referred to that as a "fad", it would not follow that he was dismissing an entire jurisdiction as a bunch of charismatic loons.  He would just be disagreeing with what those particular parishioners want to see happen in their community. 

If anyone wants to disagree with Suraj, they're free to do so, but I don't understand this rush to sensationalise his words beyond their context while decrying "endless back-and-forth conflicts".   
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2015, 07:55:44 PM »
From the context of Suraj's post, I thought it was clear he was not referring to "the MSOC en toto" as a "fad".

I guess this is one of those three blind guys and the elephant type things.  I wish I could see it your way, and I re-read the bit you've quoted from Suraj, but what's obvious to you isn't so clear to me and (apparently) vice versa.

Suraj wrote:
Quote
Saying that 99.999% belong to my church and only .001% to the other does not sway me, the Parish was built for
Orthodox worship as part of the Malankara church.  Just because 99.999% have supposedly chosen to secede and follow their fad does not mean that the alleged .001% who wish to remain in the Malankara church forfeit their rights.  Had they not filed cases, would you have allowed them to use the cemetery or the church.  If no then what are you complaining about.

He's clearly talking about a hypothetical situation within a parish where a super majority votes for a certain plan.

Sorry, Mor.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but I read that same bloc of text and I reach an entirely different conclusion than you have.  The post is clearly a direct reference not to a hypothetical situation but to the very real scenario described in such gut-wrenching detail by Jobin in post # 38.  The 99.999% is an obvious callback to what Jobin wrote about the preference of the people in that parish for the MSOC:

I will speak of my father's home parish which which is not too far from Piravom Church. This is a church where 99.999% of the people are very proud Jacobites. Unfortunately, there happens to be two maybe three IOC families, or families who switched allegiances to gain personal benefits. Using those families as proxy, the Kandanad East Diocese of MOSC has filed numerous cases to usurp the church. Now the law in India grants these families the right to use this church. So every second Sunday 500 families cannot attend Holy Qurbono in their home parish, and perform remembrance prayers where their own relatives are buried, but must squeeze into a tiny chapel church around 500m away. To get access to this church, IOC representatives use police protection, and even hired goons in buses to enter the village. Obviously, this doesn't happen without confrontation from the Jacobites, and every few months it becomes quite violent...

He's referring to that as the "fad".  In other words, the "fad" is "switching jurisdictions", not "the jurisdiction itself".

I still see it as a reference to the church itself, especially in light of Suraj's clarification to me about the distortions some MSOC faithful make regarding the Throne of St. Peter, et cetera, but even if this is not the case, this still seems dismissive of the faith of others to me.  From what I know of the MSOC faithful, they take their relationship with Antioch very seriously and see it as an integral part of their faith, identity, and heritage.  I don't think it's fair to dismiss those convictions as a fad.  Unless, of course, I'm missing something due to cultural context and switching between in MOSC and the MSOC and vice versa is a "fad" of sorts, and entire congregations routinely jump back-and-forth from one side to the other.  If indeed that is the case, I hope it's acknowledged as a fad when a given bishop, priest, or parish leaves the MOSC for the MSOC too.

If a similar super majority voted for Pentecostal style prayer meetings to replace Vespers on Saturday evenings and Suraj referred to that as a "fad", it would not follow that he was dismissing an entire jurisdiction as a bunch of charismatic loons.  He would just be disagreeing with what those particular parishioners want to see happen in their community.

I don't think that's a fair analogy for what either Jobin or Suraj are describing here.  They appear (to me at least) to be describing a particular parish in which the overwhelming majority of the people are part of the MSOC and wish to remain under Antioch, but, according to the decision of the courts, the building in wish they worship technically belongs to the MSOC.  Am I missing something here that would make your analogy more applicable?

A side note: Anyone introducing Charismatic worship to an Orthodox congregation would be deviants in the worst sense of that word.  It's still not clear to me who is deviating from the established practice in the case of the MOSC and the MSOC.  Both claim to be faithful to the heritage of the local church and claim that the other side is deviating from the way things have been and should be.  I'm still trying to get a clear picture of exactly who is right, and I wish there was some objective account I could refer to.

If anyone wants to disagree with Suraj, they're free to do so

 ;D Okay.

but I don't understand this rush to sensationalise his words beyond their context while decrying "endless back-and-forth conflicts".   

I'm not sensationalizing his words.  Perhaps I misunderstood his intended meaning, but I'm not deliberately distorting or exaggerating what he said.  I just thought his use of the term fad and his characterization of the MSOC faithful as secessionists was a bit of a strong statement.  I've never thought of one side or the other as being secessionists.  Can it be established that one side was part of the other and then seceded and formed their own parallel church?  Or did two parallel churches exist simultaneously from as soon as the initial dispute arose?
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2015, 08:26:59 PM »
Determining the guilty party in a schism where heresy is not involved can be extremely complex.  One has to have all the facts, and determine if one side provoked the other into leaving, or was expelled, and to what extent provocation occurred; unilateral secession or expulsion without justification or provocation puts the blame on one church, but both parties are to blame if a course of mutual belligerence has occurred.  But IMO we shouldn't even care.

As a Copt, you have felt the horror of the Islamic religion at close range.  One foul aspect of Muslims is that in general they tend to be unforgiving and to regard revenge as somewhat of a duty.  Thus it is hard to conceive of a way of resolving the Sunni-Shia schism short of mind control or one side simply exterminating the other, or violence or a military defeat in a jihad causing the lower ranks to switch sides.  That happened a few times.

But since were Christian, we can actively imitate Christ and turn the other cheek.  But I think what may be exacerbating this situation is meddling by corrupt, non-Christian politicians.  But it seems to me since apparently the majority of the MOSC do in fact commemorate the Patriarch of Antioch in the Diotychs and since their Catholicos has good relations with the Coptic Pope and the Armenians, perhaps the best course of action for those outside of India is to pretend the schism doesn't exist, or better yet, pray that it be healed.   But it does sound like a miserable situation.  I wish the Syriac Christians in India could unite to form a military unit to, with Indian and NATO approval, enter the fight against ISIL to protect their Suroyo brethren.  If that occurred, with MOSC and Jacobites fighting side by side, that might well end the schism.  And there is an urgent need for soldiers to help defend places like Dayro d'Mor Mattay.  Not wanting to make any kind of a political statement at all, by the way; I am expressing a wish for an ecclesiastical defense force under the joint command of the Catholicos and the Maphrian, as a means of healing the schism and protecting the Syriac Christians in the conflict area.  However if that would open up the Christians in Kerala to attacks from Muslims, then disregard it by all means.
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2015, 11:28:43 PM »
I wish the Syriac Christians in India could unite to form a military unit to, with Indian and NATO approval, enter the fight against ISIL to protect their Suroyo brethren.  If that occurred, with MOSC and Jacobites fighting side by side, that might well end the schism.  And there is an urgent need for soldiers to help defend places like Dayro d'Mor Mattay.  Not wanting to make any kind of a political statement at all, by the way; I am expressing a wish for an ecclesiastical defense force under the joint command of the Catholicos and the Maphrian, as a means of healing the schism and protecting the Syriac Christians in the conflict area.

Launch the Fifth Crusade?  May be while at it we should both join Rome.. as they have more experience with these kind of things.

Our Lord tells us: "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, ..... But my kingdom is not from the world."
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 11:34:40 PM by dhinuus »
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Offline dhinuus

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2015, 01:09:46 AM »
Can it be established that one side was part of the other and then seceded and formed their own parallel church?  Or did two parallel churches exist simultaneously from as soon as the initial dispute arose?

There is enough blame to go around on both sides. I personally see both churches as fully orthodox and do receive communion from both with the full knowledge and approval of the clergy. Partisans on both sides will always say that their faction did nothing wrong and was 100% right all the way and the other faction is just 100% wrong.

Going back 100 years...and retracing the history of the schims and ...pointing fingers at who did what wrong..is not the best thing to do, during this season of Great Lent.   I suggest that we just let this topic alone; and pray that our fathers on both sides find a way to solve this.
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2015, 09:38:58 AM »
Can it be established that one side was part of the other and then seceded and formed their own parallel church?  Or did two parallel churches exist simultaneously from as soon as the initial dispute arose?

There is enough blame to go around on both sides. I personally see both churches as fully orthodox and do receive communion from both with the full knowledge and approval of the clergy. Partisans on both sides will always say that their faction did nothing wrong and was 100% right all the way and the other faction is just 100% wrong.

Going back 100 years...and retracing the history of the schims and ...pointing fingers at who did what wrong..is not the best thing to do, during this season of Great Lent.   I suggest that we just let this topic alone; and pray that our fathers on both sides find a way to solve this.

+100, esp. the bolded.
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2015, 11:00:34 AM »
Unless, of course, I'm missing something due to cultural context and switching between in MOSC and the MSOC and vice versa is a "fad" of sorts, and entire congregations routinely jump back-and-forth from one side to the other.  If indeed that is the case, I hope it's acknowledged as a fad when a given bishop, priest, or parish leaves the MOSC for the MSOC too.
Got my abbreviations mixed up in that last sentence.  MOSC and MSOC should be reversed here.  In other words, while I'd hesitate to
characterize any clergyman, parish, or family switching sides in this awful conflict as indulging in a fad, I'd hope that those who would would at least be consistent in doing so and not contend that the guys coming over to "our side" were motivated strictly by God, their conscience, and the strength of their convictions while those switching to "their side" were chasing strictly after fads and financial gain.  Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I felt the clarification was necessary.

I wish the Syriac Christians in India could unite to form a military unit to, with Indian and NATO approval, enter the fight against ISIL to protect their Suroyo brethren.  If that occurred, with MOSC and Jacobites fighting side by side, that might well end the schism.  And there is an urgent need for soldiers to help defend places like Dayro d'Mor Mattay.  Not wanting to make any kind of a political statement at all, by the way; I am expressing a wish for an ecclesiastical defense force under the joint command of the Catholicos and the Maphrian, as a means of healing the schism and protecting the Syriac Christians in the conflict area.  However if that would open up the Christians in Kerala to attacks from Muslims, then disregard it by all means.

Wgw, you know I like you, but's stuff like this that makes me think that you regard us (Oriental Orthodox) not so much as human beings but as finely crafted, custom painted fantasy miniatures to be moved around on octagonal game boards in vamrat's rec room.  Who engages in this sort of bizarre fantasy?  Where do you come up with this sort of stuff?  A military force under the joint command of the Catholicos and the Maphrian to fight the Muslims?  Really?  Could we also hire Mandalorian mercenaries and see if Tony Stark can convince the Avengers to join us?  Come on, man.  How patronizing can you get?



Can it be established that one side was part of the other and then seceded and formed their own parallel church?  Or did two parallel churches exist simultaneously from as soon as the initial dispute arose?

There is enough blame to go around on both sides. I personally see both churches as fully orthodox and do receive communion from both with the full knowledge and approval of the clergy. Partisans on both sides will always say that their faction did nothing wrong and was 100% right all the way and the other faction is just 100% wrong.

Going back 100 years...and retracing the history of the schims and ...pointing fingers at who did what wrong..is not the best thing to do, during this season of Great Lent.   I suggest that we just let this topic alone; and pray that our fathers on both sides find a way to solve this.

+100, esp. the bolded.

+200, esp. the bolded.  I'm done here, unless we want to discuss the possibility of resurrecting a Christianized version of the Nubian Medjay to wage unrelenting war against the Islamists in the Sinai and Libya while a clone of Haile Selassie injected with Super Soldier Serum, armed with King Solomon's Ring and escorted by a retinue of cybernetically-enhanced Imperial Guardsmen can be employed to reunite Ethiopia and Eritrea under the Monarchy ending the schisms in those churches while simultaneously decimating el-Shabab.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 11:08:44 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2015, 11:03:32 AM »
Dhinuus,

I think you are reading too much into my words. I have never required the Jacobite faction to submit to anybody least of all the Orthodox faction. Unity cannot be created by forcing anybody to submit.  Such a union is never a true union.
IMO had the parties interpreted court verdicts as arbitral awards and judgments given to resolve a dispute rather than a matter of winning and loosing then such un-terminable disputes can be avoided.

For me this is not a matter of my party winning or some wicked desire to see somebody's nose rubbed into the ground, rather it is a matter of certain core principles becoming universally accepted.
I wish to see the un-reserved acceptance of the integrity and unity of the India church by all sides. I also wish to see the bonds between Malankara and Antioch strengthened and made firm with due honour being accorded to Antioch as the First Primatial see.
I wish to see the Orthodox Syrian church of India act as the good leaven it was intended to become  when the Apostle  first began his labours amongst us.

Just as you, I have attended both Orthodox and Jacobite parishes and communed from both parties, however it is also true that I don't pretend to be a peacenik simply  by engaging in hand-wringing saying both sides are wrong, both sides are terrible and so on.

You find it un-believable that I could say such things without hatred or rancour. But why do you presume that when I attack some of the things some people have done, I am personally attacking you or Jobin or anybody else for the matter. Not every attack on the views held by somebody has to be attack on the person.  I think it is important to make the distinction, violent disagreement is not verbal violence and we all know verbal violence is not a great stretch away from physical violence.

But yes, in my opinion and I speak from my experience,  it is possible to establish what has gone wrong in Malankara and which of the two competing narratives is substantially cogent. 

I think it is also critical that such a study be done , not to blame one party or to damm one half of your own brothers and then sit tight on the sofa; but to learn the lessons and then go about untying the knot that we are in.

97% of people in our factions will wring their hands and say oh the factions do not want to compromise, they are power hungry and so on.  Such people absolve themselves of all the blame and yet see how comfortable are such people with the status quo.
They are happy to spend a few hours in the faction they are comfortable with, send their kids to sunday school, become committee members and general busy bodies. Are they bothered about the factional dispute usually, no.  They get a bit embarrassed when church disputes reach prime time news hour and will get worked up when priests deliver " patriotic" speeches are but these peace loving folk bothered about the scandal of disunity and strife among people who share the same faith.

I find the status quo unacceptable, I find unity to be an imperative.  Not a pseudo-unity  but a union true to Orthodox canonical principles, true to the history and legacy of Christian faith in Malabar and true to the Gospel.

It may take a 100 more years but I have not an iota of doubt that it will happen.

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2015, 11:59:42 AM »
My apologies, I don't wish to seem patronizing.  I'm just tired of Christians being killed by ISIL.   And there already is a Suroyo militia active in Syria.  I really do assure you though that I do not view the Oriental Orthodox as chess pieces on a board.   Rather, I'm just extremely tired of them being killed and driven out of their homes in one region, and rent in half by a deeply unpleasant schism in another.  But I do of course trust in the leadership of the Oriental churches and Divine providence to ensure deliverance here.

But consider for example how, certainly as a long term consequence of Arabicization and the Genocide, the Mlahso dialect of Syriac became extinct.  A hundred years ago there was in all probability a viable community using it.  Ninety nine years ago there was in all probability spilled blood.  Is it not wrong that your own people, the Copts, were forced to stop using their ancient tongue for fear of losing it, except in the privacy of church services?  I've never met anyone quite as loving and generous as the Coots or the Syriacs, which is why I may on occasion be driven to eccentricity in my desire to see their suffering stop.  But all I can really do is pray.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2015, 12:18:13 PM »
There's a difference between expressing concern for the well being of our ancient communities and indulging in outlandish Walter Mitty style pipe dreams and fantasies which suggest that you don't know much about the communities in question beyond what you've read in books.  And then the caveat of, "However if that would open up the Christians in Kerala to attacks from Muslims, then disregard it by all means" as if dhinnus is going to run back to Moran Mor Baselios Thomas I and say, "Thirumeni!  Some guy on the internet had the best idea..." and His Beatitude is going to slap his forehead and say, "Why didn't I think of this before!  Call Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose and break out the rocket launchers!  We're going to Mosul!"  Or maybe Mor Ephrem's undeniable swag and pheromones so potent you can feel their influence right through the internet have given you the impression that he has the power to implement such a far-fetched idea?  If he did, don't you think he'd be sitting on a golden throne supported by the skulls of his enemies with Rachel Weisz on his lap and Kelly serving him mango smoothies from a golden goblet?  C'mon, man.  Please give us a break from this sort of thing.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 12:19:19 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2015, 12:39:06 PM »
Mango lassis, surely.  There is a subtle distinction between that exquisite Indian beverage and crude American smoothies.     :P
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2015, 12:46:09 PM »
Nikolaus,

I agree what I said was a bit harsh, its not the way I usually speak but I think it is important that we filter out the noise if the real issues are to be even heard.  Are church disputes ugly, yes incredibly,  even over the Internet, we end up saying things that we may never dare when speaking face to face. 
So I don't see the value of bringing up particular incidents. Things started boiling in 1912, a great deal of nasty things have been said and have been done, enough bitterness and bad blood has been created.
You asked me what the reasons are for the autocephalous party seeking to remain so and the autonomous party seeking to remain so.  In essence you were asking what the issues were ?  And what were we (including yours truly ) discussing ?  We were caught up in mud-slinging and apportioning blame for incident X, incident Y and so on . In effect we were spending our time on effects and  symptoms rather than the underlying causes, the disease  as it were.

I understand the hurt , pain and bitterness such incidents cause, so I understand where dhinuus and jobin are coming from. But this is not a one sided game, tremendous pain, hurt, bitterness and anger is caused to the Orthodox faithful also.
Also it is my opinion that  some actions from the Jacobite side that have occurred over the last 10 years to be aimed at cementing division and making any eventual union impossible.  For calling that out if I am called a partisan, I will accept that I am a partisan, not of narrow factionalism and division however but of union and eventual re-conciliation.

Regarding fad, let me clarify a few things. I termed as fads certain arguments made at various times and points in history to justify the Jacobite position as it found itself at that instant.
In my opinion there have been a number of  disconcerting shifts over time.  At one point the argument was that all immediate jurisdiction belonged to the Patriarch and that those excommunicated by the Patriarch were aliens, strangers to the faith and heretics.  Then following a court order,  mutual acceptance,full union and even a demarcation of jurisdiction between the Patriarch and the Catholicos prior to the consecration of the former by the latter. Then a split followed by the creation of a Maphriante (which is called a Catholicosate) in India which has developed over time and today exercises certain rights that were earlier argued to be rights that belonged exclusively to the Patriarch. A Neo-Romanesque understanding of the Primacy of Peter which i find unjustified even considering the rather high Petrine language of the West Syrian liturgy
( This Petrine theology seems to rise and ebb with the times, I don't know what to make of it ). Today when all the major points of dispute have been settled by the courts and no legal challenge is possible, the argument is made that the Malankara church is not purely Episcopal in character and that the Parishes have certain rights due to which court verdicts regarding the Corporate character of the Malankara church cannot be executed without the agreement of the Parish councils.
 
As my friends will agree, this latest legal argument seems not to have been made out of conviction regarding the federal nature of the Malankara church( is it possible for any Orthodox church to be not episcopal) but merely as a tactical measure to ensure that the parishes remain under status quo and that the arrangements that have been effect since the discord of the 1970's continues. The constitution (or bye-laws) that govern the church are bitterly disavowed but senior hierarchs submitted written affidavits in court accepting the same constitution to enjoy the benefits accorded by the legally enforced status quo.
All these seem to be short term legal tactics adopted to safeguard the bigger goal but I feel that if you really fervently believe that your position is theologically incompatible with those of the Orthodox party then would you not be not adopting such tactics at all.

Tomorrow if the disputes on the rights of parishes are not in their favour then some new argument will be brought in. Today for the life of me, I cannot understand what the core issues are.

It does not matter how fervently some opinions are held by some, the question is are such opinions justified in light of the traditions & history of the Malankara church. That is where the answers will be found. 

As an aside do let me know what you find problematic regarding the MOSC position.  I will try and give a frank answer if I can.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2015, 10:46:46 AM »
I think you are reading too much into my words. I have never required the Jacobite faction to submit to anybody least of all the Orthodox faction. Unity cannot be created by forcing anybody to submit.  Such a union is never a true union.
IMO had the parties interpreted court verdicts as arbitral awards and judgments given to resolve a dispute rather than a matter of winning and loosing then such un-terminable disputes can be avoided.

What ever civil/secular law point you can point out about the 1934 Constitution; it is a document unilaterally drafted and adopted by just one faction. There are administrative norms in various churches in Angamaly, Kandanad and Kochi diocese that are 100s of years old. In some cases there are even written constitutions for parishes that are older than the 1934 constitution. If the "pre-requisite" for unity is to throw away all these norms and old constitutions and submit to be governed by the this '1934 Constitution' that "we" have drafted for "you". It is indeed a demand for submission.

I also wish to see the bonds between Malankara and Antioch strengthened and made firm with due honour being accorded to Antioch as the First Primatial see.

I think you are in the minority here in the autocephalous faction. Most "influential" people (Managing committee members, Priests, Bishops) that I know, see the very mention of the 'Patriarch of Antioch and all the East' in the '1934 Constitution' as a matter of shame. They see the relationship with "Antioch" was just for a matter of convenience to defeat the Marthomites in court cases. The only reason why the Constitution is not amended and any reference to "Antioch" dropped is because they worry that might be challenged in court.

In the "north" (except for Kunnamkulam) there was never a Marthomite problem. For the vast majority of the people there, the relationship with the Patriarch of Antioch is not a matter of shame but a badge of honor they carry proudly to be associated with the apostolic see where Christians were called Christians. It is an emotional connection. 

But why do you presume that when I attack some of the things some people have done, I am personally attacking you or Jobin or anybody else for the matter.

Dear brother Suraj... I cannot speak for anyone else. You have not personally attacked me and I have not accused you of it either.

I find the status quo unacceptable, I find unity to be an imperative.  Not a pseudo-unity  but a union true to Orthodox canonical principles, true to the history and legacy of Christian faith in Malabar and true to the Gospel.

It may take a 100 more years but I have not an iota of doubt that it will happen.

This is where we agree at a macro level but disagree at the micro level.

1. I agree that the 'status quo' is unacceptable.
2. I am not sure what you mean by 'preudo-unity'.  For us Christians the ultimate expression of unity or "union" is "Communion" the union expressed in sharing the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is what the Patriarch of Antioch has offered.
3. The  kind of "administrative unity" of the two jurisdictions will happen. I agree with that too. And yes it might take a lot more years.

So the question is do we want to wait another hundred years for administrative unity to happen before we establish "communion" ? Can't we stop civil cases; establish peace and mutual communion and exist as two OO jurisdictions NOW... in the hope of eventually establishing "administrative unity".
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 10:54:36 AM by dhinuus »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2015, 04:21:19 PM »
There's a difference between expressing concern for the well being of our ancient communities and indulging in outlandish Walter Mitty style pipe dreams and fantasies which suggest that you don't know much about the communities in question beyond what you've read in books.  And then the caveat of, "However if that would open up the Christians in Kerala to attacks from Muslims, then disregard it by all means" as if dhinnus is going to run back to Moran Mor Baselios Thomas I and say, "Thirumeni!  Some guy on the internet had the best idea..." and His Beatitude is going to slap his forehead and say, "Why didn't I think of this before!  Call Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose and break out the rocket launchers!  We're going to Mosul!"  Or maybe Mor Ephrem's undeniable swag and pheromones so potent you can feel their influence right through the internet have given you the impression that he has the power to implement such a far-fetched idea?  If he did, don't you think he'd be sitting on a golden throne supported by the skulls of his enemies with Rachel Weisz on his lap and Kelly serving him mango smoothies from a golden goblet?  C'mon, man.  Please give us a break from this sort of thing.
TheTrisagion, reporting for duty, sir!

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Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2015, 08:32:20 AM »
Dhinuus,

Give me a day to reply substantially.  I will take Communion anyday as we wait for a full administrative unity.  For me Communion is the only goal.

However  withdrawal of all civil cases (which is a prudent measure no doubt) will presuppose that a the parties are at agreement regarding the structural framework to be adopted.

The Patriarchs recent Kalpana spoke of the two jurisdictions existing as 2 Reeths ( the Malayalam colloquial for Rites ordinarily, but the Eastern Catholic Reeths of Kerala are sui-juris particular churches with separate Synodal institutions joined in bonds of communion through the "Chair of Peter" in Rome). 

I welcome that a suggestion has come in some form , but the above illustrates what I mean by psuedo-unity.  The acceptance of the India church as an integral whole is sine qua non for unity. I don't think the above suggestion meets that requirement.

I would also say that I am not in a minority regarding maintaining the bonds between Antioch & Malankara as-is. Ofcourse in the current situation there will be people from our side who argue that we need not maintain the bond. The Patriarch himself is giving us the option of making a choice in the matter. Certainly even from my perspective, maintaining the current bond with Antioch is not a test of Orthodoxy, the Church will remain Orthodox with or without Antioch; but I stand for continued maintenance of the Antiochian relationship since it is essential for settlement in Malankara, which is the greater good.

The 1934 constitution was indeed unilaterally drafted however the Patriarchal party and the Patriarch re-established communion in 1958 well aware of its contents. When matters heated up, there were letters raising the issue but to me it was just an attempt to muddy matters.  All I am saying is that is the constitution is a matter of conviction then no matter what the stakes prelates should have taken a stand and avoided giving sworn affidavits accepting the same constitution.  If I am not wrong in suits over a very prominent disputed parish, the Jacobite party claims allegiance to the very same constitution, no wonder why its legal position in this particular parish is extremely strong.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2015, 11:55:56 AM »
The Patriarchs recent Kalpana spoke of the two jurisdictions existing as 2 Reeths ( the Malayalam colloquial for Rites ordinarily, but the Eastern Catholic Reeths of Kerala are sui-juris particular churches with separate Synodal institutions joined in bonds of communion through the "Chair of Peter" in Rome). 

Dear Suraj,  Are you saying this after reading the 'original' kalpana of the Patriarch in his own words OR after reading only news reports and Malayalam translations ?  What the Patriarch has said is that; we should all toil towards unity as both factions hold the same faith and worship using the same liturgy. He then goes on to say that even after 20 years after the Supreme Court verdict we still don't have unity in Malankara. It is after realizing current sorry state of affairs that he is recommending that in the current state; let us exist either as two completely independent OO Churches sharing the same faith (something more like the Coptic and Syriac) or as two jurisdictions with in the same church (something more like the two Armenian Catholicoi).

No where is H.H referring to making the autocephalous "Indian Orthodox Church" into a sui juris particular church under the Chair of Peter.

Too much has been made in the past by exaggerating a hypothetical / hyperbole used by a Late Patriarch in a private letter to a Late Catholicos. Let us not start something new by exaggerating the use of the word "reeth" in the translation.

Ofcourse in the current situation there will be people from our side who argue that we need not maintain the bond. The Patriarch himself is giving us the option of making a choice in the matter.

Certainly even from my perspective, maintaining the current bond with Antioch is not a test of Orthodoxy, the Church will remain Orthodox with or without Antioch;

I agree 100%. The ties with Antioch is not the test of Orthodoxy. And yes the Patriarch is giving us a choice. He is willing to accept us the entire Malankara church as part of the OO Communion even if we collectively decide not to have the bond with Antioch.

The difference; is given the choice in the matter; the autonomous faction will want to continue this bond and the autocephelous faction if guaranteed that it won't affect the progress of any court cases will drop any reference to this 'power hungry; money greedy, intruding foreigner' [as my bothers like to refer to the all (current and late) Patriarchs of Antioch] from Malankara.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 12:21:09 PM by dhinuus »
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Offline surajiype

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2015, 01:38:21 AM »
Dhinuus,

Agreed, when I see Malayalam translations of Patriarchal Kalpanas, my radar usually starts blinking red.  HH might not have wanted to say what was said in the Malayalam translation which used a very poor choice of words.

I think that if a reasonable settlement is achieved regarding the rights of the Patriarch vis-a-vis those of the Catholicos and the Synod in India, then the overwhelming majority on the MOSC side will support a full re-establishment of communion.

Standing in the MOSC, I was never in doubt regarding the above. The genuine grief which the MOSC felt when Mor Gregorios of Aleppo was abducted by Daesh and the immense good will shown to Patriarch Ephrem are just 2 examples of the genuine good will that exists.

If all sides genuine keep away for rhetoric and words that cause hurt (the malayalam is more elegant) the cause of re-conciliation will be much easier. This is one of the reasons for all of us to focus ahead rather than on the unfortunate past.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2015, 11:39:45 AM »
I just want to take time out to thank Dhinnus, Suraj, Mor, and Jobin for their contributions to this thread.  It has been quite edifying to me.  I also want to apologize for failing to make a thoughtful reply to Suraj's most recent post addressed to me, but my schedule has not permitted me to indulge in posting on these forums of late.  Perhaps I'll rejoin this discussion at some point in the near future.  Thank you all, and please remember me in your prayers.

A.N.
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Offline Eldho2002

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2015, 04:09:48 PM »
My brothers in Christ, do not forget that the Malankara Orthodox faction left the Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) Church TWICE. They split in 1912 and were invited back in 1958 and they joined.
In 1975, they split again, taking dozens of Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) Churches with them.
The Jacobite church has continuously invited them back to the Mother Church but they have rejected.
My friends, the Malankara Orthodox Church has filed so many cases against the Jacobite Church,
They are not looking for unity.
They only want power!
As I said before they've taken whole Churches away from the Jacobite Church, e.g. Parumala Seminary which was Jacobite but was taken by a bishop that moved to the Orthodox faction.
The Jacobite Church in Aluva have to worship in a Mass Hall because their Cathedral is closed down by police.
It was closed down by police because the Orthodox Church filed a case claiming that that Church was theirs!
There were about 10 families out of 500 that moved to the Orthodox faction in 1975.
But it still remains closed!


The Jacobite Church has always left an invitation for the Malankara Orthodox Church but they continue to reject it.


Thank you all for reading my plea,
May God Bless.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Faction Slams Patriarch’s Visit to Church
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2015, 04:26:37 PM »
LOL.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.