Author Topic: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception  (Read 225141 times)

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Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #270 on: April 29, 2009, 10:03:00 AM »
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #271 on: April 29, 2009, 10:03:10 AM »
It is not an exaltation and greater glory, but a belittlement of Her, this “gift” which was given Her by Pope Pius IX and all the rest who think they can glorify the Mother of God by seeking out new truths. The Host Holy Mary has been so much glorified by God Himself, so exalted is Her life on earth and Her glory in heaven, that human inventions cannot add anything to Her honor and glory. That which people themselves invent only obscures Her Face from their eyes. Brethren, take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ, wrote the Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit (Col. 2:18).
St John Maximovitch

This is just a silly arguement as it assumes the truth of the EO position from the get go. If you assume you are correct you will conclude you are correct.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #272 on: April 29, 2009, 10:04:29 AM »
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
What's your point? Yes only Christ is the only one who is "perfectly holy" becuase he is the only one who is Holy in and of himself. Any other person who is holy is not perfectly so because their holiness is derived from God and not one's self.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #273 on: April 29, 2009, 10:05:19 AM »
Mickey, sparying us with quotes will not help the discussion. Use the quotes to construct an arguement.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 10:06:28 AM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #274 on: April 29, 2009, 10:07:09 AM »
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #275 on: April 29, 2009, 10:11:21 AM »
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
Already addressed. Try again. Furthermore, if you want to use this quote to support your position you first have to define what St. Ambrose meant by "earthly taint" and second you have to deal with the fact that quote does NOT say that Christ is only one who did not experience "earthly taint". It only says that he is the only one who is perfectly holy.
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #276 on: April 29, 2009, 10:12:43 AM »
“One Man alone, the Intermediary between God and man, is free from the bonds of sinful birth, because He was born of a Virgin, and because in being born He did not experience the touch of sin”
(St. Ambrose, Against Julian, Book 2).

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #277 on: April 29, 2009, 10:30:33 AM »
“One Man alone, the Intermediary between God and man, is free from the bonds of sinful birth, because He was born of a Virgin, and because in being born He did not experience the touch of sin”
(St. Ambrose, Against Julian, Book 2).
He was free from the bonds of a sinful birth in and of himself. Yes. Mary was bound to it but sanctified so that she would not experience it. Still waiting for you to construct an arguement. BTW, doesn't this quote REFUTE the EO position on original sin?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #278 on: April 29, 2009, 10:31:40 AM »
“I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by the reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, ‘One must glorify the Mother of God as much as possible.’ This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment. This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious. But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #279 on: April 29, 2009, 10:34:26 AM »
“I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by the reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, ‘One must glorify the Mother of God as much as possible.’ This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment. This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious. But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

Again a poor arguement by St. Bernard. The Immaculate Conception is not based on any of the arguements listed above. It was not necessary and it is not Catholic teaching that it was necessary. However it was Proper. Now are you going to continue slinging quotes like protestants do or are you going to engage in an arguement?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #280 on: April 29, 2009, 10:39:49 AM »
“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #281 on: April 29, 2009, 10:41:08 AM »
...It was not necessary and it is not Catholic teaching that it was necessary...
Then why so up in arms about it? It isn't dogma, so why fight so hard about it, as if it were?

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #282 on: April 29, 2009, 10:41:50 AM »
“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux
Ok. We could go round and round on this for hours Mickey. So when you decide you want to have a dicussion on the mater and actually analyze these texts, let me know. You can always PM me. But what you are doing right now is silly. Its not dicussion. Its not debate. As a matter of fact I think its silly. I am completely willing to have a discussion with you when you decide you are ready. Let me know.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #283 on: April 29, 2009, 10:43:42 AM »
...It was not necessary and it is not Catholic teaching that it was necessary...
Then why so up in arms about it? It isn't dogma, so why fight so hard about it, as if it were?
My concern is that Mickey is presenting arguements against something that is not Catholic dogma. The problem with this is that people will assume that it is Catholic dogma or that those arguements are the reasons that we give for the Immaculate Conception. This is dangerous because it will spread falsehoods about the Catholic faith and that bothers me. He has pulled this kind of thing ever since he left the Catholic Church.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #284 on: April 29, 2009, 10:49:11 AM »
“There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thou alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins.”
(St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost.)

Offline LBK

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #285 on: April 29, 2009, 10:58:29 AM »
Quote
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?

A complete non sequitur, and you know it, Papist. The question here is not whether the Mother of God is all-holy, all-pure, etc, but at which point in her life did she become fully so, to the extent that she is indeed more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high (a frequent Orthodox liturgical reference). As I have said before on other matters on this forum, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church represents the consensus patrum of the Church on doctrinal and theological matters. It safeguards against the traps of playing duels by parrying quotes from the Fathers, as, given that even saints are not infallible, contradictions can be found between individual Fathers.

Selections from the Vigil for the Annunciation:

From Ode 7, Canon at Matins:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body; it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely-adorned tabernacle, a living sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

From Ode 8:

You appear to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since I am to be purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word. May God now dwell in me. I cry out to Him with you: All you works of the Lord, bless the Lord.


Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #286 on: April 29, 2009, 11:01:01 AM »
Quote
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?

A complete non sequitur, and you know it, Papist. The question here is not whether the Mother of God is all-holy, all-pure, etc, but at which point in her life did she become fully so, to the extent that she is indeed more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high (a frequent Orthodox liturgical reference). As I have said before on other matters on this forum, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church represents the consensus patrum of the Church on doctrinal and theological matters. It safeguards against the traps of playing duels by parrying quotes from the Fathers, as, given that even saints are not infallible, contradictions can be found between individual Fathers.

Selections from the Vigil for the Annunciation:

From Ode 7, Canon at Matins:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body; it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely-adorned tabernacle, a living sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

From Ode 8:

You appear to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since I am to be purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word. May God now dwell in me. I cry out to Him with you: All you works of the Lord, bless the Lord.
Very good. Thanks.

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #287 on: April 29, 2009, 11:07:07 AM »
Quote
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?

A complete non sequitur, and you know it, Papist. The question here is not whether the Mother of God is all-holy, all-pure, etc, but at which point in her life did she become fully so, to the extent that she is indeed more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high (a frequent Orthodox liturgical reference). As I have said before on other matters on this forum, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church represents the consensus patrum of the Church on doctrinal and theological matters. It safeguards against the traps of playing duels by parrying quotes from the Fathers, as, given that even saints are not infallible, contradictions can be found between individual Fathers.

Selections from the Vigil for the Annunciation:

From Ode 7, Canon at Matins:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body; it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely-adorned tabernacle, a living sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

From Ode 8:

You appear to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since I am to be purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word. May God now dwell in me. I cry out to Him with you: All you works of the Lord, bless the Lord.



John the Baptist is never given the title of "All Holy" and "All Pure" yet he was sanctified from the womb. If Mary was given such an exalted title it seems more likely that she would have been sanctified at least from the womb as was St. John who not even given such a glorious title.
Further, just because she was sanctified at the moment of the annuciation, does not mean that she was not also sanctified before that. She may have been given grace before and more grace then. Do you not believe that she was free from all sin during the entirety of her life?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 11:08:22 AM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #288 on: April 29, 2009, 11:14:12 AM »
 "And as it pertains to the excellent dignity of Christ, that He is the Redeemer and Savior of all, and that He opens the door to all, and that He alone died for all, the Virgin Mary is not excluded from this generality, lest while increasing the Mother's excellence, the glory of the Son be lessened: and so the mother attests, who wishes the Son to be more extolled and honored than she herself, the Creator than the creature."
Bonaventure (d. 1274)

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #289 on: April 29, 2009, 11:15:25 AM »
Here's a quote for everyone to consider:
"Many Saints appeared before you, but none was filled with grace as you; no one has been purified in advance as you have been."
This is from St Sophronius of Jerusalem (556-638 AD).
Notice it that he clearly points out that she was filled with grace in advance. I think that this suggest that here sanctification occured in a manner different than the human race and possible could be suggesting a sanctification like that of John the Baptist in the womb. However, he does point out that none was filled with grace like Mary. This could mean that her sanctification was even more unique than that of John the Baptist. Could this mean that it happend at the moment of her conception? Possibly. If she is truely the "All Holy" otherwise? I don't think so.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #290 on: April 29, 2009, 11:16:11 AM »
"And as it pertains to the excellent dignity of Christ, that He is the Redeemer and Savior of all, and that He opens the door to all, and that He alone died for all, the Virgin Mary is not excluded from this generality, lest while increasing the Mother's excellence, the glory of the Son be lessened: and so the mother attests, who wishes the Son to be more extolled and honored than she herself, the Creator than the creature."
Bonaventure (d. 1274)
Mickey,
Look at my last post. Not only did i provide a quote but my understanding of the quote and its application to my position. That's how you have a dicussion.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 11:16:40 AM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #291 on: April 29, 2009, 11:17:35 AM »
“Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to ancestral sin and death”
(Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition’ of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God”).

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #292 on: April 29, 2009, 11:19:29 AM »
"Earth she is because she is from earth. But she is a new earth, since she derives in no way from her ancestors and has not inherited the old leaven. She is a new dough and has originated a new race." - St. St Nicholas Cabasilas (14th Century)

Notice that Mary does not derive the old leaven from her ancestors. No, she is new dough, a new creation. Thus she cannot have inherited original sin otherwise she would have just been the old leaven.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #293 on: April 29, 2009, 11:21:06 AM »
"When the Mother of Him who is beauty itself is born, [human] nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God." - St. Andrew of Crete (740 AD)

This demonstrates that Mary was holy and sanctified well before the annunciation. Was already holy when she was born. Could she have been so before her birth? At her conception? The quote does not rule out such a possibility.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #294 on: April 29, 2009, 11:25:42 AM »
It is not for nothing that the Orthodox Church, in her liturgical texts, calls David 'the ancestor of God' and gives the same name of 'holy and righteous ancestors of God' to Joachim and Anna. The Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception seems to break up this uninterrupted succession of Old Testament holiness, which reaches its fulfillment at the moment of the Annunciation, when the Holy Spirit came down upon the Virgin to make her fit to receive the Word of the Father in her womb. The Orthodox Church does not admit the idea that the Holy Virgin was thus exempted from the lot of the rest of fallen humanity - the idea of a 'privilege' which makes her into a being ransomed before the redemptive work, by virtue of the future merits of her Son.
Vladimir Lossky

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #295 on: April 29, 2009, 11:30:18 AM »
Apparently Mickey has a GIANT book of quotes against IC. It's kind of funny actually. :D
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 11:30:37 AM by PoorFoolNicholas »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #296 on: April 29, 2009, 11:32:12 AM »
Quote
Mary was born from man seed and all born from man seed are touched by the stain of the Ancestral Sin , like it was repeated many times concerning this subject


Saint Ambrose says that the seed of Saint Joachim was immaculate.   Since he would have seen Original Sin as being passed on via the act of conception and specificially via the male seed he must have thought it fitting that Joachim's seed was immaculate and without Original Sin.

Yet, St. Jacob of Sarug taught that Mary was perfect, without stain, even BEFORE the Annunciation. 
 

Message 239 is a question addressed to Catholics but nobody has been able to answer it.    Could you please have a look? 

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #297 on: April 29, 2009, 11:32:13 AM »
St. John Maximovitch is attacking a straw man. 

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who died in 1153 and is seen by some Orthodox as the last authentic bearer of the patristic tradition in the West before the advent of the Scholastic age, denies the Immaculate Conception.

Now you may say that Bernard was a complete ignoramus - which would be hard to justify - but one thing we can deduce from his fierce rejection of the Immaculate Conceptions is that it did NOT form any part of the genuine Tradition of the Western Church.  Bernard perceived it as an INNOVATION. .


If it were official Church teaching or ancient Tradition would he have denied it? This is all the more striking because his profound love for Mary and his writings in her honour had gained him the title of "Troubadour of the Virgin." Read his Epistle 174...

"I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, 'One must glorify the Mother of God as much as Possible.' This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment.

"This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of Her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious.

"But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her."


"I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. if, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of Her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of lightmindedness"




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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #298 on: April 29, 2009, 11:32:55 AM »
It is not for nothing that the Orthodox Church, in her liturgical texts, calls David 'the ancestor of God' and gives the same name of 'holy and righteous ancestors of God' to Joachim and Anna. The Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception seems to break up this uninterrupted succession of Old Testament holiness, which reaches its fulfillment at the moment of the Annunciation, when the Holy Spirit came down upon the Virgin to make her fit to receive the Word of the Father in her womb. The Orthodox Church does not admit the idea that the Holy Virgin was thus exempted from the lot of the rest of fallen humanity - the idea of a 'privilege' which makes her into a being ransomed before the redemptive work, by virtue of the future merits of her Son.
Vladimir Lossky

We don't deny that these other people were holy. But only Mary was All Holy, All Pure, and Immaculate.
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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #299 on: April 29, 2009, 11:38:17 AM »
Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who died in 1153 and is seen by some Orthodox as the last authentic bearer of the patristic tradition in the West before the advent of the Scholastic age, denies the Immaculate Conception.
What's your point?
Now you may say that Bernard was a complete ignoramus - which would be hard to justify - but one thing we can deduce from his fierce rejection of the Immaculate Conceptions is that it did NOT form any part of the genuine Tradition of the Western Church.  Bernard perceived it as an INNOVATION. .
A perons can be wrong without being an ignoramus. You quite often wrong Father but I don't think you are an ignoramus.
If it were official Church teaching or ancient Tradition would he have denied it? This is all the more striking because his profound love for Mary and his writings in her honour had gained him the title of "Troubadour of the Virgin." Read his Epistle 174...

"I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, 'One must glorify the Mother of God as much as Possible.' This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment.

"This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of Her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious.

"But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her."


"I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. if, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of Her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of lightmindedness"

I have already answered most of his arguements in previous posts.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 11:57:39 AM by Papist »
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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #300 on: April 29, 2009, 11:39:15 AM »
Quote
Mary was born from man seed and all born from man seed are touched by the stain of the Ancestral Sin , like it was repeated many times concerning this subject


Saint Ambrose says that the seed of Saint Joachim was immaculate.   Since he would have seen Original Sin as being passed on via the act of conception and specificially via the male seed he must have thought it fitting that Joachim's seed was immaculate and without Original Sin.

Yet, St. Jacob of Sarug taught that Mary was perfect, without stain, even BEFORE the Annunciation. 
 

Message 239 is a question addressed to Catholics but nobody has been able to answer it.    Could you please have a look? 
Maybe he did think that. I don't know.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #301 on: April 29, 2009, 11:40:21 AM »

Just coming back to this thread to ask a question of the Catholic members.  It was posed to me today by a visitor.

Catholics place on awful amount of emphasis on the Archangel's greeting to the Mother of God "Hail, FULL  OF  GRACE" and this greeting is a strong plank in their argumentation for the Immaculate Conception.

Now if "Full" in fact means "Full" and not half-full or 7/8ths full does this mean that Mary was necessarily fully deified (as in theosis) from the moment of her conception?   Does it mean that she has existed from the first moment of her existence in the supreme condition of total final theosis?   This is something which the rest of us willl never obtain since theosis is a never-ending journey into the infinity of God.
What do you mean by final theosis? I thought you didn't believe in final theosis.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #302 on: April 29, 2009, 11:54:55 AM »
Now you may say that Bernard was a complete ignoramus - which would be hard to justify - but one thing we can deduce from his fierce rejection of the Immaculate Conceptions is that it did NOT form any part of the genuine Tradition of the Western Church.  Bernard perceived it as an INNOVATION.

Indeed!

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #303 on: April 29, 2009, 12:21:05 PM »

Just coming back to this thread to ask a question of the Catholic members.  It was posed to me today by a visitor.

Catholics place on awful amount of emphasis on the Archangel's greeting to the Mother of God "Hail, FULL  OF  GRACE" and this greeting is a strong plank in their argumentation for the Immaculate Conception.

Now if "Full" in fact means "Full" and not half-full or 7/8ths full does this mean that Mary was necessarily fully deified (as in theosis) from the moment of her conception?   Does it mean that she has existed from the first moment of her existence in the supreme condition of total final theosis?   This is something which the rest of us willl never obtain since theosis is a never-ending journey into the infinity of God.
What do you mean by final theosis? I thought you didn't believe in final theosis.

I don't.  But I am not using the term in that unusual sense as given by that Ukrainian Catholic chap, to mean the final purification of purgatory.   

I am saying that Catholics claim that the Mother of God was "Full of grace" from her inception.  To be "full of grace" is to be... well... "full of grace.    No more grace can be added.  So she must have been totally "theotisized" from the first moment of conception.  Theosis for the rest of us is a never-ending journey but for her it must have been a completely fulfilled state from the first second of life.  She had no journey to undertake.

You say that her Immaculate Conception was the same as our Baptism (simply pre-applied in her case) but it cannot have been,.  Baptism does NOT create a state of theosistic perfection for the rest of us.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #304 on: April 29, 2009, 12:22:03 PM »
St. John Maximovitch is attacking a straw man. 

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who died in 1153 and is seen by some Orthodox as the last authentic bearer of the patristic tradition in the West before the advent of the Scholastic age, denies the Immaculate Conception.

Now you may say that Bernard was a complete ignoramus - which would be hard to justify - but one thing we can deduce from his fierce rejection of the Immaculate Conceptions is that it did NOT form any part of the genuine Tradition of the Western Church.  Bernard perceived it as an INNOVATION. .


If it were official Church teaching or ancient Tradition would he have denied it? This is all the more striking because his profound love for Mary and his writings in her honour had gained him the title of "Troubadour of the Virgin." Read his Epistle 174...

"I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, 'One must glorify the Mother of God as much as Possible.' This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment.

"This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of Her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious.

"But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her."


"I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. if, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of Her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of lightmindedness"





Father Bless,

We should recognize that Blessed Bernard believed that Our Lady was infused with Grace in the womb and not as the Orthodox argue as well. He believed the Churches teaching was an act of God upon the fetus in the womb. Whither this was at the very moment of conception or an act after conception yet still within the womb is the bone of contention within the Western Church at the time and at no time does it appear the Western Saints agree with modern Orthodox apologetics on the matter.

This is the most important point for me to point out because it seems to be overlooked even by Blessed John Maximovich's apologetic on the Our Lady.

Father, knowing my struggle here on this topic could give me your advice on a means to see this more clearly? Thank you father.

Peace.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #305 on: April 29, 2009, 12:58:12 PM »
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception proclaimed by the Roman Catholics in 1854 is rejected by the Orthodox Church, but without in any way detracting from the dignity of the Mother of God. In fact, according the Fathers, the inheritance from Adam consists not in a personal responsibility of all men for original sin, but simply in the inheritance of the consequences of that sin: death, corruption and the passions ... Hence the Orthodox have no difficulty in recognizing that the Mother of God was heir, like us, of the consequences of Adam's sin - Christ alone was exempt -but at the same time pure and without personal sin, for she freely kept herself from all attraction for the world and for the passions, and she voluntarily co-operated in God's purpose by obeying His will with docility: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word," she replied to the Angel Gabriel (LK. 1:38).
(The Synaxarion, Vol. II, p. 361)

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #306 on: April 29, 2009, 01:17:04 PM »
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception proclaimed by the Roman Catholics in 1854 is rejected by the Orthodox Church, but without in any way detracting from the dignity of the Mother of God. In fact, according the Fathers, the inheritance from Adam consists not in a personal responsibility of all men for original sin, but simply in the inheritance of the consequences of that sin: death, corruption and the passions ... Hence the Orthodox have no difficulty in recognizing that the Mother of God was heir, like us, of the consequences of Adam's sin - Christ alone was exempt -but at the same time pure and without personal sin, for she freely kept herself from all attraction for the world and for the passions, and she voluntarily co-operated in God's purpose by obeying His will with docility: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word," she replied to the Angel Gabriel (LK. 1:38).
(The Synaxarion, Vol. II, p. 361)
Yawn!
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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #307 on: April 29, 2009, 01:30:33 PM »
Good work Mickey , i appreciate your effort . It is a fact that the IC was not a dogma in the early Church and in the times of the Church Fathers . This "new" dogmatic is an catholic heresy , and the devotion to this dogma leads to the most foulishness and stupid justifications one refuting another . This is outside the teaching of the Church Fathers and it is not in line with the words of Scripture .
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #308 on: April 29, 2009, 01:38:57 PM »
Good work Mickey , i appreciate your effort . It is a fact that the IC was not a dogma in the early Church and in the times of the Church Fathers . This "new" dogmatic is an catholic heresy , and the devotion to this dogma leads to the most foulishness and stupid justifications one refuting another . This is outside the teaching of the Church Fathers and it is not in line with the words of Scripture .
Yes Dan. The Fathers speak for themselves. Even Catholic saints such as Bernard of Clairvaux, Aquinas, and Bonaventure were opposed to it. It is another unfortunate innovation of post schism Rome.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #309 on: April 29, 2009, 01:54:54 PM »
As for the quotes provided concerning St. Ambrose teaching on Mary, he also says,
"A virgin non only undefiled, but whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain." Looks like the quote you poseted above does not mean that Mary was not free from earthly taint. But nice try again Mickey.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #310 on: April 29, 2009, 01:57:39 PM »
"Your Immaculate body, which was preserved from al stain of sin, did not remain on earth." - St. John Damascene

Not only was she sanctified from all sin but Mary was preserved from all stain of sin. Thus, she must not have inherited original sin.

I guess its as the saying goes, there's nothing that cannot be answered by St. John Damascene.  ;D
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #311 on: April 29, 2009, 02:01:59 PM »
"She formed part of the human race adn was fo the same essence as we, although she was pure from all taint and immaculate." - St. Servius (d. 538)

Pure from all taint. That would include pure from original sin.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #312 on: April 29, 2009, 02:03:55 PM »
St. Andrew of Crete says that God cose "from all nature this entirely pure and immaculate virgin." (d. 740)
Hmmm. She was already pure and Immaculate when he Chose her. Thus she was made clean well before the Annuciation.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #313 on: April 29, 2009, 02:06:06 PM »
It is a fact that the IC was not a dogma in the early Church and in the times of the Church Fathers .

This is a fact.

I also remember reading somewhere that the Catholic Saint Catherine of Sienna received a vision where the Virgin Mary told Catherine that she was not immaculately conceived. Do you know anything about this?

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Re: Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #314 on: April 29, 2009, 02:19:09 PM »
It is a fact that the IC was not a dogma in the early Church and in the times of the Church Fathers .

This is a fact.

I also remember reading somewhere that the Catholic Saint Catherine of Sienna received a vision where the Virgin Mary told Catherine that she was not immaculately conceived. Do you know anything about this?
If that were true it would be a much bigger deal and pounced on by anti-Catholic apologists. Now I have provided some Church Father quotes demonstrating that the Immaculate Conception was part of the tradition of the Fathers. No doubt you will reject them because you don't want to believe in the truth of the Immaculate Conception.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.