Author Topic: You will be pleased to know...  (Read 2839 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,256
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
You will be pleased to know...
« on: August 31, 2011, 12:05:27 AM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.  This is the word of the Great Professor Emerson, teacher of New Testament and the Church of Arizona State University! 

Oh, and everyone should read lots of Bart Ehrman, since the Great Professor quotes him at least once every class, sometimes several times.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,334
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 12:25:16 AM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.

While that is (obviously) not true, it is no less wrong-headed than the idea that everyone in the Church agreed on the canon until the Protestants took certain books out in the 16th century. Perhaps he's heard one too many Catholic/Orthodox epologists making a mess of history  ;)

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,337
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 12:27:20 AM »
Well, he's a teacher of the New Testament, not the Old one, so cut him some slack!

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,265
  • Paint It Red
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 01:10:11 AM »
Well, he's a teacher of the New Testament, not the Old one, so cut him some slack!

I chucked at that bit too.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Wyatt

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,465
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Latin Church
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 01:14:17 AM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.

While that is (obviously) not true, it is no less wrong-headed than the idea that everyone in the Church agreed on the canon until the Protestants took certain books out in the 16th century.
How is that part not true?

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,334
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 01:19:36 AM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.

While that is (obviously) not true, it is no less wrong-headed than the idea that everyone in the Church agreed on the canon until the Protestants took certain books out in the 16th century.
How is that part not true?

Well... because everyone in the Church didn't agree. :)  The Ethiopian, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, etc. all accepted different canons. The Orthodox disagreed about what was in the Bible amongst themselves for that matter. The Protestants may have been wrong to abandon the texts, but what was wrong about it wasn't some notion that all Christians agreed until the Reformation.

Offline WetCatechumen

  • Roman Catholic
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 297
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 03:58:39 PM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.

While that is (obviously) not true, it is no less wrong-headed than the idea that everyone in the Church agreed on the canon until the Protestants took certain books out in the 16th century.
How is that part not true?

Well... because everyone in the Church didn't agree. :)  The Ethiopian, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, etc. all accepted different canons. The Orthodox disagreed about what was in the Bible amongst themselves for that matter. The Protestants may have been wrong to abandon the texts, but what was wrong about it wasn't some notion that all Christians agreed until the Reformation.
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,754
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 04:06:14 PM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.

While that is (obviously) not true, it is no less wrong-headed than the idea that everyone in the Church agreed on the canon until the Protestants took certain books out in the 16th century.
How is that part not true?

Well... because everyone in the Church didn't agree. :)  The Ethiopian, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, etc. all accepted different canons. The Orthodox disagreed about what was in the Bible amongst themselves for that matter. The Protestants may have been wrong to abandon the texts, but what was wrong about it wasn't some notion that all Christians agreed until the Reformation.
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.
Or at least aren't heretical.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,334
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 04:11:09 PM »
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.

No.

Offline WetCatechumen

  • Roman Catholic
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 297
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 04:24:27 PM »
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.

No.
Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[20]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[21]
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees


Pray tell, which of these do the Oriental, Eastern, or Assyrian churches reject?
"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,334
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 04:39:04 PM »
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.

No.
Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[20]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[21]
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees


Pray tell, which of these do the Oriental, Eastern, or Assyrian churches reject?

All of them. And none of them. And some of them.

In other words, it's not that simple. Some reject some of them, some reject all of them, some accept all of them and/or put them on a lower footing, some give attribute to them a special/modified degree of authority or weight, some don't know, some don't care, some are agnostic about their status, some pretend like everyone agrees, etc. I'm not trying to disparage the books or make things confusing, things just aren't as simple or agreed upon as many people seem to think. (I would also note that it's not that I just want to criticize, thus I've spent a lot of time--and will continue to spend time--on thread like this one).

Offline stanley123

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,811
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 05:27:48 PM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.  This is the word of the Great Professor Emerson, teacher of New Testament and the Church of Arizona State University! 

Oh, and everyone should read lots of Bart Ehrman, since the Great Professor quotes him at least once every class, sometimes several times.
I am not all that pleased to know this.

Offline Salpy

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,456
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 05:28:54 PM »
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.

No.
Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[20]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[21]
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees


Pray tell, which of these do the Oriental, Eastern, or Assyrian churches reject?

As far as I know, all EO's and OO's have all those books, plus some others, which will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, especially with the OO's.  The only one I am not sure about is the Syriac Orthodox Church.  They traditionally have the Peshitta, which historically had an abbreviated Old Testament canon, similar to the Protestant Mesoretic.  However, I am pretty sure they now include at least some or all of the Deuterocanonical books.

The Assyrian Church of the East still sticks to the traditional Peshitta Old Testament canon, which is very similar to the Protestant canon.  It might even be shorter.  I seem to recall seeing the Peshitta canon and I think it was missing Lamentations.

Offline Riddikulus

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,788
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2011, 10:38:12 PM »
Well, we all agree that the seven books that the Protestants reject which Catholics accept are canon.

No.
Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[20]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[21]
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees


Pray tell, which of these do the Oriental, Eastern, or Assyrian churches reject?

All of them. And none of them. And some of them.

In other words, it's not that simple. Some reject some of them, some reject all of them, some accept all of them and/or put them on a lower footing, some give attribute to them a special/modified degree of authority or weight, some don't know, some don't care, some are agnostic about their status, some pretend like everyone agrees, etc. I'm not trying to disparage the books or make things confusing, things just aren't as simple or agreed upon as many people seem to think. (I would also note that it's not that I just want to criticize, thus I've spent a lot of time--and will continue to spend time--on thread like this one).

I believe that the point that Asteriktos is making is that there was no hard and fast dogmatic announcement in the Pre-Protestant church anywhere regarding these books; especially as some kind of seperate canon. I think that I'm correct in saying, that they are recognised as OT texts traditionally from their traditional usage. I don't believe that we call them deuterocanonical as the Latin Church does; they are OT books. That Protestants removed them from traditional usage is probably different than saying that they removed them from an existing canon of scripture. The latter appears not to be exactly true. I could be completely wrong on that, but it's what I seem to remember.

Modern Protestants now claim them to be an addition of the Roman Catholics, but that's not correct either. From what I understand concerning this, part of the reason they were decided against as continuing in traditional usage was because they weren't part of the original Hebrew manuscripts. As Asteriktos said, it's more complicated than a simple deletion of books by petulent Protestants, peeved with the Catholic Church.  :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 10:43:26 PM by Riddikulus »
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 08:48:23 PM »
@Salpy In the Coptic Orthodox Church we have a scriptural canon closer to that of the RCs. I assume the Armenian Orthodox canon is closer to the Byzantine Orthodox canon?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 08:48:33 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,334
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2011, 09:05:31 PM »
I believe that the point that Asteriktos is making is that there was no hard and fast dogmatic announcement in the Pre-Protestant church anywhere regarding these books; especially as some kind of seperate canon. I think that I'm correct in saying, that they are recognised as OT texts traditionally from their traditional usage. I don't believe that we call them deuterocanonical as the Latin Church does; they are OT books. That Protestants removed them from traditional usage is probably different than saying that they removed them from an existing canon of scripture. The latter appears not to be exactly true. I could be completely wrong on that, but it's what I seem to remember.

Modern Protestants now claim them to be an addition of the Roman Catholics, but that's not correct either. From what I understand concerning this, part of the reason they were decided against as continuing in traditional usage was because they weren't part of the original Hebrew manuscripts. As Asteriktos said, it's more complicated than a simple deletion of books by petulent Protestants, peeved with the Catholic Church.  :)

Thank you, yes, that is what I was getting at, and a much better way of putting it than how I was trying to say it :)

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: You will be pleased to know...
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2011, 12:21:25 PM »
that you may now get rid of the Apocrypha.  You see, you added these books in the sixteenth century as a response to the Reformation.  This is the word of the Great Professor Emerson, teacher of New Testament and the Church of Arizona State University! 

Oh, and everyone should read lots of Bart Ehrman, since the Great Professor quotes him at least once every class, sometimes several times.
i guess that means if martin Luther got his way 100% the Book of James would be in the same category :0

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker