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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!  (Read 39319 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2009, 01:25:39 PM »

Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...

If you can't stand the heat then don't get in the debate... or rather focus on being a catechumen and preparing to become a member of the church instead.
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« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2009, 01:28:23 PM »

As it has been already pointed out, all this attack happened as a sermon. Very sad!

It is also very sad and unfortunate that during the recent election, eloquence of Metropolitan Jonah dominated over many years of dedicated service, proven missionary outreach and excellent administrative experience of His Eminence Archbishop Job (Osacky) or, actually any other Hierarch of OCA.

If Archbishop Job were the Metropolitan of OCA now, the process of Orthodox unity in USA would speed up without any controversial issues on its way.
Archbishop Job had already announced his intent to retire in the near future, so I doubt he would have accepted the office if he was elected.

Besides, how do you know that the process of Orthodox unity in USA would proceed without any speed bumps with Archbishop Job at the helm of the OCA?  We can talk about "what if this had happened instead of that," but this doesn't address the reality we now face:  His Beatitude Jonah is now our Metropolitan.

Are you not also aware that even the perfect person for the job is still not immune to making mistakes that my set his vision back a few years?  (not to imply that Met. Jonah has actually done this)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 01:38:52 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2009, 01:33:32 PM »

As it has been already pointed out, all this attack happened as a sermon. Very sad!

It is also very sad and unfortunate that during the recent election, eloquence of Metropolitan Jonah dominated over many years of dedicated service, proven missionary outreach and excellent administrative experience of His Eminence Archbishop Job (Osacky) or, actually any other Hierarch of OCA.

If Archbishop Job were the Metropolitan of OCA now, the process of Orthodox unity in USA would speed up without any controversial issues on its way.

IIRC, Bishop Job repeatedly said he didn't want the job. 
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« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2009, 01:34:05 PM »

The Russian Orthodox Church has over 190 MILLION members. How many members do all the other jurisdictions have that do not support the OCA? All the jurisdictions that do not support us amount to about 5 million members. Unless you include Serbia and others into that non-supportive group, then it would be about 35 million.

Still though, 190 million vs. 35 million. That is 84% of Orthodox Christians in the world.

Of course, we cannot say that 100% of the Russian Orthodox Christians support the OCA, but still, the amount of support from the Russian Orthodox Church probably does not go as low as only 60% (which if you removed 40% of support from Russian Orthodox Church, support would be split 50/50 in the Orthodox world)


The majority of communicants commemorate through their hiearchs Met. Jonah as autocephalous.

You two do realize that the Church is not a democracy,

No, she is an absolute monarchy.  The EP, however, is not said monarch.

Quote
that she is therefore not governed by majority rule?

I've never been one for popular sovereignty.  Just ask Greeki.

Quote
 So you two seem to think that just because the "majority" of the Orthodox world recognizes our autocephaly, the churches that don't are wrong?
No, they are wrong because their arguments don't hold water.

Quote
 Sorry, bubs, but it just doesn't work that way.  
Indeed, it doesn't.

Maybe the Chief Secretary should know that:
Quote
Perhaps he [Met. Jonah, excuse Jonas Roll Eyes]  is carried away by the fact that the ecclesial schema over which he presides and which has been claimed as “autocephalous” in rampant violation of every sense of canonicity, is not recognized but by few [/b] Churches

Quote
Yes, I'm disappointed that a large number of the ancient patriarchates don't recognize the autocephaly of my church, but their refusal to recognize us is a serious issue that needs to be respected and resolved canonically.  Maybe these ancient patriarchates are right, and we need to take their concerns seriously.

Actually, no.  Do as I say, not as I do, is not an argument worthy of respect.

The Patriarchates of the Balkans know their own history, and the similarity of their own problems with the Phanar to those of Met. Jonah.  The Chief Secretary seems to be ignorant of these matters.

Alexandria seems to have had its jurisdiction problems solved by the same man who created America's.  Her history in "All of Africa" resembles that of Russia in America, and hence the OCA.  Alexandria has also, in contradiction to the EP's claims, founded parishes in the Americas, especially amongst Afro-Americans.

Antioch fully admits that her jurisidction in the Americas was fully under that of Moscows.  The Antiochians broke off of the Russian North American Diocese (same for the Serbs, Albanians, etc.).

Jerusalem, seeing what she is doing to her own Faithful....in addition to setting up her own organization in the New World, again....

Georgia already recognizes the OCA.

That leaves Cyprus.  And maybe Sinai.

As for New Rome, how she can make her arguments with a straight face, given her arguments to Old Rome, I cannot fathom.

As it has been already pointed out, all this attack happened as a sermon. Very sad!

It is also very sad and unfortunate that during the recent election, eloquence of Metropolitan Jonah dominated over many years of dedicated service, proven missionary outreach and excellent administrative experience of His Eminence Archbishop Job (Osacky) or, actually any other Hierarch of OCA.

If Archbishop Job were the Metropolitan of OCA now, the process of Orthodox unity in USA would speed up without any controversial issues on its way.

IIRC, Bishop Job repeatedly said he didn't want the job. 



I happen to know his grace personally, having converted in the same parish as he (btw, VERY CarpatoRussian, as is his grace), and many of his circle.  He was adament he did not want the job, that he needed retirement (his health is not excellent).  He did want to make sure that beforehand the ship of Church got back on course.  She has.
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« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2009, 01:39:03 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston? 
Btw, the Declaration of Independence was written in a pub.  What do you have against pubs?

Quote
He could have made a more convincing argument to support his point, but he blew it, and with it, IMO, a bit of his credibility.

Then perhaps you can take advantage of Serb's hard labor, down load the text, and show us where it is "wanting."


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« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2009, 01:43:05 PM »

Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...

If you can't stand the heat then don't get in the debate... or rather focus on being a catechumen and preparing to become a member of the church instead.

LOL.  After all, see what you have to look forward to?
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« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2009, 01:43:32 PM »

Quote
 So you two seem to think that just because the "majority" of the Orthodox world recognizes our autocephaly, the churches that don't are wrong?
No, they are wrong because their arguments don't hold water.
Sorry, bud, but that wasn't part of the appeal to majority that you and Devin originally advanced as an argument for why the non-recognizing patriarchates are wrong.  My assertion is not that the EP and those who take his side are right; rather, I'm asserting that your appeal to the majority does not work in proving your point.  You two need to therefore scrap that argument.

IOW, your argument from the majority doesn't hold water.
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« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2009, 01:45:28 PM »

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston? 
Btw, the Declaration of Independence was written in a pub.  What do you have against pubs?
But the Declaration of Independence was not meant to be a theological presentation, nor does it have any real bearing on our understanding of the Church.
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« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2009, 01:54:30 PM »

I don't care how we are unified, as long as we gave our own American Church that is self-governing.  I don't care about the arguments about who "got here first", who's authority is the "mostest canonical", and whatever else.  Everybody needs to grow up and work out something that will bring us all together in a way that will give us a unified voice in America.  Nobody in this country is going to take us seriously until we are visibly and governmentally unified, not only "mystically" unified.  Americans will actually take note of us if we have an American Orthodox Church.

Actually, I'm not even a part of the church yet, so my opinions do not count!  Give me six more months and then I'll start contributing opinions!  Grin
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« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2009, 02:03:39 PM »

Axios, Mustahek, he is worthy!

It is almost spine tingling to watch the will of God at work. First, God cleans up the OCA and removes all the unworthy hierarchs. Then, out of no where, He presents Abbot Jonah, to the OCA. He is elected and immediately begins to go to work.
Then the Antiochian Archdiocese finds itself in turmoil due to the patriarchate's decree. This event gives pause to all the Antiochians here to see how easily the church in Damascus can have direct control over our local church here.
Somehow, these events will hopefully lead to the Antiochians joining the OCA but how that will happen is yet to be seen.

+ St. Tikhon and St. Raphael, pray for us your children of North America! Show us the way! +
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« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2009, 02:05:28 PM »

Americans will actually take note of us if we have an American Orthodox Church.
The cynic in me says, "NAH!  We'll still be far too small a percentage of the American population for anyone to take note of us."  For Americans to notice us, our Church (all jurisdictions combined) needs to grow to much larger size than it is now.
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« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2009, 02:06:21 PM »

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston? 
Btw, the Declaration of Independence was written in a pub.  What do you have against pubs?
But the Declaration of Independence was not meant to be a theological presentation, nor does it have any real bearing on our understanding of the Church.

You beat me to it.
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« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »

AXIOS!

Many years!
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« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2009, 02:15:45 PM »

Let no one be deceived: if ACROD wasn't the stick in the eye of the Metropolia, the Slavs would have been Hellenized and put on the New Calendar, just as the EP did with the Slavs in Northern Greece.

And if they were in the OCA, Russified and put on the New Calendar?  Let no one be deceived on that account.

The UOC-USA and ACROD have had their traditions protected by being under the Omophorion of Constantinople.

Quote
And we aren't suggesting that GOA hasn't had financial issues, are we? Roll Eyes

No, I said nothing of the sort.  I said we haven't had the troubles that we would have if we were in the OCA.  That is a simple statement of fact.  The OCA has had financial issues and it isn't under Constantinople, maybe the GOA has and they are.  The common denominator there isn't Constantinople.
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« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2009, 02:21:31 PM »

As it has been already pointed out, all this attack happened as a sermon. Very sad!

It is also very sad and unfortunate that during the recent election, eloquence of Metropolitan Jonah dominated over many years of dedicated service, proven missionary outreach and excellent administrative experience of His Eminence Archbishop Job (Osacky) or, actually any other Hierarch of OCA.

If Archbishop Job were the Metropolitan of OCA now, the process of Orthodox unity in USA would speed up without any controversial issues on its way.

IIRC, Bishop Job repeatedly said he didn't want the job.  

That's the impression I got, too.  That and, as PetertheAleut mentioned, +JOB's retirement was a well-known factor at the time of the election.
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« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2009, 02:21:50 PM »

Quote
 So you two seem to think that just because the "majority" of the Orthodox world recognizes our autocephaly, the churches that don't are wrong?
No, they are wrong because their arguments don't hold water.
Sorry, bud, but that wasn't part of the appeal to majority that you and Devin originally advanced as an argument for why the non-recognizing patriarchates are wrong.  My assertion is not that the EP and those who take his side are right; rather, I'm asserting that your appeal to the majority does not work in proving your point.  You two need to therefore scrap that argument.

It wasn't to make an argument it was to scrap one.
As for your second point, Fr. Elpidoforos was at the school only for a week.  He then returned to Constantinople.  If Fr. Ephraim wants to visit there, or if Met. Jonah wants to visit there, they are more than welcome to.  

I was actually wondering if Met. Jonah would even be invited to the pan orthodox meeting in June anyway, since he is not recognized by the orthodox in the world as autocephalous.  interesting stuff.  

Which came from my quotes from the Chief Secretary:
Quote
Metropolitan Jonas, while he was still an abbot, in one of his speeches presented what he called “a monastic perspective” on the subject “Episcopacy, Primacy and the Mother Churches”. In the chapter on autocephaly and primacy he claims that “there is no effective overarching primacy in the Orthodox Church.” He seems to be in opposition to the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, because he considers that such an institution “is based on primacy over an empire-wide synod” and that this “has long become unrealistic.” What surprised me the most in this “monastic perspective” of His Eminence Jonas was the claim that allegedly “now only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate to be what it claims to be.” It is indeed saddening the ignorance of this Hierarch not only on account of History and canonical order but even on account of the current state of affairs. How is it possible that he ignores that there is no Church that does not recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate? Perhaps he is carried away by the fact that the ecclesial schema over which he presides and which has been claimed as “autocephalous” in rampant violation of every sense of canonicity, is not recognized but by few Churches and it is not included in the diptychs of the Church.

Please allow me, by way of illustration, to sample a few other points of the same article that should not remain unanswered.

The most provocative of his claims is that which asserts that with the formation of the so-called OCA “the presence of any other jurisdiction on American territory becomes uncanonical, and membership in the Synod of the Orthodox Church in America becomes the criterion of canonicity of all bishops in America.” It is perhaps a sign of our times that he who violated the holy canons par excellence, the most uncanonically claimed as allegedly autocephalous, makes now himself the criterion of canonicity and vitiates the canonical hierarchs as uncanonical. O tempora, o mores!

            Instead of acknowledging the mercifulness of the other Patriarchates which, in spite the uncanonical status of the so-called OCA, accept it in communion, its representatives choose to subject them to such an unfair treatment that contributes nothing to the common cause of Orthodox unity. I would be interested to hear an explanation from His Eminence in response to the question “How will the so-called OCA contribute to our common Orthodox witness in diaspora by electing bishops holding titles which already exist for the same city”. Especially our Ecumenical Patriarchate not only is it not “unable to lead” as most unfortunately Metropolitan Jonas claims, but already since last October (in order to limit myself to the most recent example) has launched under the presidency of His All Holiness the process for the convocation of the Holy and Great Synod. I am not sure whether His Eminence, upon his ordination to the episcopacy, refused to put on the vestments of a bishop, which he, in the same article, and while he was still an abbot, had called as unfitting to the real nature of the arch-pastorship (p. 11).

If Constantinople was not given that prerogative by canon 28, how was she able to grant autocephalies and patriarchal dignities to the Churches of Russia , Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Czech Lands and Slovakia, Poland and Albania? Under the provision of which canon did Constantinople give the right of jurisdiction over the remaining of Africa to the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 2002?

            And if the Ecumenical Patriarchate has not granted the Patriarchate of Moscow the privilege to bestow autocephaly as it pleases it, then what gives it the right to do so on the expense of the Orthodox unity?

            Summarizing my lecture, I wish to call your attention to the following points:

3.   The submission of the diaspora to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean either Hellenization or violation of the canonical order, because it is only in this way that both the letter and the spirit of the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils is respected. The Mother Church knows, however, that such a submission is difficult to be accomplished under the present historical conditions. For this reason, and by employing the principle of economy, it was suggested and it has now become accepted in Pan-Orthodox level, that there will be local Pan-Orthodox Episcopal Assemblies in the diaspora (like SCOBA in the US). The principle of presidency is followed, namely the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate presides over these Episcopal Assemblies in order to preserve the necessary element of canonicity.

As you surely know, last October the Ecumenical Patriarchate summoned in Constantinople a Synaxis of the Primates of the Orthodox Churches. The Primates accepted the proposal of Patriarch Bartholomew to move ahead with the Pan-Orthodox preparatory meetings, within 2009, so that the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church take place as soon as possible. For the record, please note that this decision was reached thanks to the concession on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which accepted that the Autonomous Churches will no longer be invited as to avoid the thorny problem of the Church of Estonia in the relations between Constantinople and Moscow.

Quote
IOW, your argument from the majority doesn't hold water.
God and you make a majority.
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« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2009, 02:23:42 PM »

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston? 
Btw, the Declaration of Independence was written in a pub.  What do you have against pubs?
But the Declaration of Independence was not meant to be a theological presentation, nor does it have any real bearing on our understanding of the Church.
And how does the Metropolitan's sermon make you think of a pub, and the 1770's?
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« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2009, 02:27:09 PM »

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston? 
Btw, the Declaration of Independence was written in a pub.  What do you have against pubs?
But the Declaration of Independence was not meant to be a theological presentation, nor does it have any real bearing on our understanding of the Church.
And how does the Metropolitan's sermon make you think of a pub, and the 1770's?

It sounded like a stump speech for American political independence from the Crown, not a sound ecclesiological, historical, or theological argument to the point.
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« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2009, 02:27:59 PM »

Remembering sermons/speeches made post All-American Council, and search www.oca.org for the speech, Constantinople wasn't commenting unprovoked.  That tidbit is forgotten in this thread....
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« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2009, 02:29:02 PM »

I don't care how we are unified, as long as we gave our own American Church that is self-governing.  I don't care about the arguments about who "got here first", who's authority is the "mostest canonical", and whatever else.  Everybody needs to grow up and work out something that will bring us all together in a way that will give us a unified voice in America.  Nobody in this country is going to take us seriously until we are visibly and governmentally unified, not only "mystically" unified.  Americans will actually take note of us if we have an American Orthodox Church.

Actually, I'm not even a part of the church yet, so my opinions do not count!  Give me six more months and then I'll start contributing opinions!  Grin

Quote
Christ appears to St. Martin.
ACCORDINGLY, at a certain period, when he had nothing except his arms and his simple military dress, in the middle of winter, a winter which had shown itself more severe than ordinary, so that the extreme cold was proving fatal to many, he happened to meet at the gate of the city of Amiens a poor man destitute of clothing. He was entreating those that passed by to have compassion upon him, but all passed the wretched man without notice, when Martin, that man full of God, recognized that a being to whom others showed no pity, was, in that respect, left to him. Yet, what should he do? He had nothing except the cloak in which he was clad, for he had already parted with the rest of his garments for similar purposes. Taking, therefore, his sword with which he was girt, he divided his cloak into two equal parts, and gave one part to the poor man, while he again clothed himself with the remainder. Upon this, some of the by-standers laughed, because he was now an unsightly object, and stood out as but partly dressed. Many, however, who were of sounder understanding, groaned deeply because they themselves had done nothing similar. They especially felt this, because, being possessed of more than Martin, they could have clothed the poor man without reducing themselves to nakedness. In the following night, when Martin had resigned himself to sleep, he had a vision of Christ arrayed in that part of his cloak with which he had clothed the poor man. He contemplated the Lord with the greatest attention, and was told to own as his the robe which he had given. Ere long, he heard Jesus saying with a clear voice to the multitude of angels standing round -- "Martin, who is still but a catechumen, clothed me with this robe."
http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~eknuth/npnf2-11/sulpitiu/lifeofst.html#tp
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« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2009, 02:30:43 PM »

Americans will actually take note of us if we have an American Orthodox Church.
The cynic in me says, "NAH!  We'll still be far too small a percentage of the American population for anyone to take note of us."  For Americans to notice us, our Church (all jurisdictions combined) needs to grow to much larger size than it is now.

It will, however, deprive the Ultramontanists of one of their more appealing arguments, that we cannot get our act together.
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« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2009, 02:34:32 PM »

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston? 
Btw, the Declaration of Independence was written in a pub.  What do you have against pubs?
But the Declaration of Independence was not meant to be a theological presentation, nor does it have any real bearing on our understanding of the Church.
And how does the Metropolitan's sermon make you think of a pub, and the 1770's?

It sounded like a stump speech for American political independence from the Crown, not a sound ecclesiological, historical, or theological argument to the point.
Although having that American tinge to it, it was quite focused on the principles of eccesiology, history and theology. I can't access Serb's transcription from this computer: I'll have to do that later.

I'll just sum it up: the OCA was not designed for "Diaspora," was not founded in "Diaspora," did not develop in "Diaspora," was groomed for Autocephaly NOT in "Diaspora."

Remembering sermons/speeches made post All-American Council, and search www.oca.org for the speech, Constantinople wasn't commenting unprovoked.  That tidbit is forgotten in this thread....

Any hints to what we should be looking for?

The Chief Secretary's speech itself makes it clear he is reacting.
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« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2009, 02:41:28 PM »

Check through the news on www.oca.org.  I'll try to find it later if no one finds it first.  Right now I have a glorious headache and a dr. appointment, so I obviously don't have the time to do the searching.  But alas, I hope to get to the bottom of it. 
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« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2009, 03:12:06 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston?  He could have made a more convincing argument to support his point, but he blew it, and with it, IMO, a bit of his credibility.

I just think he burned a lot of bridges, unnecessarily.  He could have turned the whole situation on its head and brought a unique compromise that no one has thought of.  Instead he said some rather unfair things, and at the same time characterizing a fellow bishop and christian.  It's just too bad. 
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« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2009, 03:24:28 PM »

Christ appears to St. Martin.
ACCORDINGLY, at a certain period, when he had nothing except his arms and his simple military dress, in the middle of winter, a winter which had shown itself more severe than ordinary, so that the extreme cold was proving fatal to many, he happened to meet at the gate of the city of Amiens a poor man destitute of clothing. He was entreating those that passed by to have compassion upon him, but all passed the wretched man without notice, when Martin, that man full of God, recognized that a being to whom others showed no pity, was, in that respect, left to him. Yet, what should he do? He had nothing except the cloak in which he was clad, for he had already parted with the rest of his garments for similar purposes. Taking, therefore, his sword with which he was girt, he divided his cloak into two equal parts, and gave one part to the poor man, while he again clothed himself with the remainder. Upon this, some of the by-standers laughed, because he was now an unsightly object, and stood out as but partly dressed. Many, however, who were of sounder understanding, groaned deeply because they themselves had done nothing similar. They especially felt this, because, being possessed of more than Martin, they could have clothed the poor man without reducing themselves to nakedness. In the following night, when Martin had resigned himself to sleep, he had a vision of Christ arrayed in that part of his cloak with which he had clothed the poor man. He contemplated the Lord with the greatest attention, and was told to own as his the robe which he had given. Ere long, he heard Jesus saying with a clear voice to the multitude of angels standing round -- "Martin, who is still but a catechumen, clothed me with this robe."

That was very moving.  You got me a little misty with that one.  Is this St. Martin of Tours?
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« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2009, 03:28:19 PM »

I just think he burned a lot of bridges, unnecessarily.  He could have turned the whole situation on its head and brought a unique compromise that no one has thought of.  Instead he said some rather unfair things, and at the same time characterizing a fellow bishop and christian.  It's just too bad. 

It was noted in another thread that Metropolitan Phillip has had the curious habit of calling for unity and insulting those who he calls to unity at the same time.  Lessons unlearned I suppose.

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.
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« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2009, 03:44:48 PM »

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.

This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.
 
I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

I am looking primarily for facts rather than interpretations of facts/situations, either by His Beatitude or members on this forum.  All I've seen are either implications that Metropolitan Jonah has lied or merely differing opinions on situations.

His Beatitude is most certainly not the first nor the only person to question the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus nor is he the first hierarch to question the concept of "diaspora" as it relates to American Orthodox Christians.

Thank you.
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« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2009, 03:48:04 PM »

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.

This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.
 
I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

I am looking primarily for facts rather than interpretations of facts/situations, either by His Beatitude or members on this forum.  All I've seen are either implications that Metropolitan Jonah has lied or merely differing opinions on situations.

His Beatitude is most certainly not the first nor the only person to question the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus nor is he the first hierarch to question the concept of "diaspora" as it relates to American Orthodox Christians.

Thank you.

Ok.   Riddle me this: 

Quote
We can’t allow our church to be controlled by people who have no appreciation of our culture, and have to bow to the Turkish Islamic authorities. 

And then three sentences later: 
Quote
We have to come together. 

Does this make any sense to you?  I'm having a hard time understanding it. 

Also it makes it more fun if you add in this (which came before the other two quotes by a couple paragraphs)
Quote
We have to come together as one, united, orthodox church in North America.  In order to truly show people that the orthodox church IS the one holy catholic church, in order to show that we are truly the church constituting of the disciples of Jesus Christ, and there’s only one way to show that:  It’s not by self-righteous proclamations of our orthodoxy, it’s not by self-righteous condemnations of  non-orthodox christians. 

plus this: 
Quote
There are those, there, in the old world who devalue this, who say that they are the only criterion of orthodoxy.  Who are ignorant of our saints.  Who refuse to recognize the sacrifice of so many of those who have come before us in Christ to establish the gospel here.

Yet he also says:

Quote
So that we can continue our relationship with our mother churches, a relationship of love and support, firm in our own identity as Orthodox Christians, and making our witness to protect them against whatever evils confront them, whether it be an aggressive Islam, or whether it be communists who now call themselves democrats.

[edited to add a few quotes]





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« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2009, 03:53:15 PM »

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.

This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.
 
I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

I am looking primarily for facts rather than interpretations of facts/situations, either by His Beatitude or members on this forum.  All I've seen are either implications that Metropolitan Jonah has lied or merely differing opinions on situations.

His Beatitude is most certainly not the first nor the only person to question the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus nor is he the first hierarch to question the concept of "diaspora" as it relates to American Orthodox Christians.

Thank you.

Ok.   Riddle me this: 

Quote
We can’t allow our church to be controlled by people who have no appreciation of our culture, and have to bow to the Turkish Islamic authorities. 

And then three sentences later: 
Quote
We have to come together. 

Does this make any sense to you?  I'm having a hard time understanding it. 

Also it makes it more fun if you add in this (which came before the other two quotes by a couple paragraphs)
Quote
We have to come together as one, united, orthodox church in North America.  In order to truly show people that the orthodox church IS the one holy catholic church, in order to show that we are truly the church constituting of the disciples of Jesus Christ, and there’s only one way to show that:  It’s not by self-righteous proclamations of our orthodoxy, it’s not by self-righteous condemnations of  non-orthodox christians. 


I'm failing to see the problem in reconciling these two statements.
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« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2009, 03:56:33 PM »

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.

This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.
 
I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

I am looking primarily for facts rather than interpretations of facts/situations, either by His Beatitude or members on this forum.  All I've seen are either implications that Metropolitan Jonah has lied or merely differing opinions on situations.

His Beatitude is most certainly not the first nor the only person to question the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus nor is he the first hierarch to question the concept of "diaspora" as it relates to American Orthodox Christians.

Thank you.

Ok.   Riddle me this: 

Quote
We can’t allow our church to be controlled by people who have no appreciation of our culture, and have to bow to the Turkish Islamic authorities. 

And then three sentences later: 
Quote
We have to come together. 

Does this make any sense to you?  I'm having a hard time understanding it. 

Also it makes it more fun if you add in this (which came before the other two quotes by a couple paragraphs)
Quote
We have to come together as one, united, orthodox church in North America.  In order to truly show people that the orthodox church IS the one holy catholic church, in order to show that we are truly the church constituting of the disciples of Jesus Christ, and there’s only one way to show that:  It’s not by self-righteous proclamations of our orthodoxy, it’s not by self-righteous condemnations of  non-orthodox christians. 

plus this: 
Quote
There are those, there, in the old world who devalue this, who say that they are the only criterion of orthodoxy.  Who are ignorant of our saints.  Who refuse to recognize the sacrifice of so many of those who have come before us in Christ to establish the gospel here.

Yet he also says:

Quote
So that we can continue our relationship with our mother churches, a relationship of love and support, firm in our own identity as Orthodox Christians, and making our witness to protect them against whatever evils confront them, whether it be an aggressive Islam, or whether it be communists who now call themselves democrats.

[edited to add a few quotes]

And your point is...?
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« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2009, 04:13:01 PM »

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.

This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.
 
I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

I am looking primarily for facts rather than interpretations of facts/situations, either by His Beatitude or members on this forum.  All I've seen are either implications that Metropolitan Jonah has lied or merely differing opinions on situations.

His Beatitude is most certainly not the first nor the only person to question the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus nor is he the first hierarch to question the concept of "diaspora" as it relates to American Orthodox Christians.

Thank you.

Ok.   Riddle me this: 

Quote
We can’t allow our church to be controlled by people who have no appreciation of our culture, and have to bow to the Turkish Islamic authorities. 

And then three sentences later: 
Quote
We have to come together. 

Does this make any sense to you?  I'm having a hard time understanding it. 

Also it makes it more fun if you add in this (which came before the other two quotes by a couple paragraphs)
Quote
We have to come together as one, united, orthodox church in North America.  In order to truly show people that the orthodox church IS the one holy catholic church, in order to show that we are truly the church constituting of the disciples of Jesus Christ, and there’s only one way to show that:  It’s not by self-righteous proclamations of our orthodoxy, it’s not by self-righteous condemnations of  non-orthodox christians. 

plus this: 
Quote
There are those, there, in the old world who devalue this, who say that they are the only criterion of orthodoxy.  Who are ignorant of our saints.  Who refuse to recognize the sacrifice of so many of those who have come before us in Christ to establish the gospel here.

Yet he also says:

Quote
So that we can continue our relationship with our mother churches, a relationship of love and support, firm in our own identity as Orthodox Christians, and making our witness to protect them against whatever evils confront them, whether it be an aggressive Islam, or whether it be communists who now call themselves democrats.

[edited to add a few quotes]

And your point is...?

You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 
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« Reply #121 on: April 07, 2009, 04:15:59 PM »

I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

Sure, I'll pick out a few.  First off the assertion that unity under Constantinople is being under a "Pope".  He says that's one model of unity.  That's not how churches under the Omophorion of Constantinople operate though.  That is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

How about the assertion that the Old World hierarchs simply "don't understand there are Americans who are Orthodox".  Really, none of them do?

How about this whole section (taken from serb1389's helpful word doc)

Quote
I don’t think the Holy Fathers in the Phanar understand that we are a church, albeit, with separate administrations, but that has a common value of determining our own destiny.  A church that is dedicated to the conciliar process which does not ignore the voice of the laity, which does not ignore the voice of the priests.  A church which is united in its common commitment. Because, we are orthodox not simply by birth, we are orthodox not simply by our ethnic heritage, we are orthodox because we have chosen to be orthodox.  We are orthodox because we have committed our entire life to Jesus Christ and the Gospel.  

I guess being under Constantinople means the voice of the laity is ignored, the priests are ignored, the is no common commitment to anything and the conciliar process is ignored.  Being under Constantinople means nobody could possibly imagine that one could be Orthodox and not be of some ethnicity.  I guess all of that is just true because it's "common knowledge".  "Common knowledge" like ethnic Orthodox are interested in politics and money and converts understand the Gospel.  Right?  Everyone knows that.

Quote
Not to some kind of alien ideology, not to some nationalist or imperialist ideology from some forgotten empire.  Not the imposition of foreign customs, and the submission to foreign despots – but to a united church in this country.

Part of this is debatable, part is not even clear what he means, and part is slander.

Quote
but you have to give us the freedom to take care of our own church and our own country and our own culture, and not to be controlled by people who have never heard a word of English, much less would allow a word of English to be spoken in the Liturgy.”  

Fear mongering and patently untrue, especially the last part.
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« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2009, 04:20:19 PM »


You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?

FWIW, I really have no dog in this hunt.  Yes, I am a member (catechumen) of the OCA but, being a former Catholic, I'm used to being "ruled over by a foreign monarch", so to speak.  

However, I fail to see how His Beatitude is a liar, which is what he is explicitly being called.  By all means, disagree with his interpretations of the facts, but do not call him a liar unless you can prove it.
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« Reply #123 on: April 07, 2009, 04:20:41 PM »

He could have turned the whole situation on its head and brought a unique compromise that no one has thought of. 

Uh, you're criticizing him for not coming up with something that no one else has thought of either?  Shocked
seems a tad unrealistic.

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« Reply #124 on: April 07, 2009, 04:25:34 PM »

You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

How so?  Those are not mutually exclusive statements.
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« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2009, 04:26:12 PM »


You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?

FWIW, I really have no dog in this hunt.  Yes, I am a member (catechumen) of the OCA but, being a former Catholic, I'm used to being "ruled over by a foreign monarch", so to speak.  

However, I fail to see how His Beatitude is a liar, which is what he is explicitly being called.  By all means, disagree with his interpretations of the facts, but do not call him a liar unless you can prove it.

I called it disingenuous, not being a lier.  Those are two very different things.  

Secondly, when we went to Constantinople last summer we were given a variable shopping list of things that Pat. Bartholomew has been able to do with the turkish gov't that no patriarch before him could have IMAGINED.  So stranglehold?  Not quite.  Is it comfortable for him?  Definitely not.  

Also, if I tell you "Schultz I want to be your best friend, to watch out for you, take care of your kids when you're gone, and support you financially for the rest of your life" and then go and say "Schultz, you're controlled by the liberalist jerks in america and that makes you easily controlled, so i'm not gona listen to you about how to take care of your kids"....how would you feel?  
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« Reply #126 on: April 07, 2009, 04:26:43 PM »

You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

How so?  Those are not mutually exclusive statements.

Just explained above.  Let me know if it doesn't make sense still...
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« Reply #127 on: April 07, 2009, 04:30:08 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

I'm grateful to you, especially because my dial-up at the end of the world is too slow to view the video.

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« Reply #128 on: April 07, 2009, 04:31:14 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

I'm grateful to you, especially because my dial-up at the end of the world is too slow to view the video.



I cut a back-room deal with ialmisry so you can thank him.  lol.   Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #129 on: April 07, 2009, 04:36:02 PM »

You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

How so?  Those are not mutually exclusive statements.

Just explained above.  Let me know if it doesn't make sense still...

You still haven't shown how it's "lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity" (which is what disingenous means).  So no, it still doesn't make sense because you still haven't shown how those two statements, taken together, are somehow lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity.
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« Reply #130 on: April 07, 2009, 04:37:55 PM »

You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

How so?  Those are not mutually exclusive statements.

Just explained above.  Let me know if it doesn't make sense still...

You still haven't shown how it's "lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity" (which is what disingenous means).  So no, it still doesn't make sense because you still haven't shown how those two statements, taken together, are somehow lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity.

I was thinking more of sincerity than the other two.  You can't tell someone you want to love them and then accuse them of being subject to someone who you think is evil or corrupt.  I don't know how I can be more clear.  I can't tell you that I love you and then accuse you of being ruled by your evil step-mother.  That is not love.  I'm not sure in what other way I can say it. 
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« Reply #131 on: April 07, 2009, 04:41:16 PM »

I was thinking more of sincerity than the other two.  You can't tell someone you want to love them and then accuse them of being subject to someone who you think is evil or corrupt.  I don't know how I can be more clear.  I can't tell you that I love you and then accuse you of being ruled by your evil step-mother.  That is not love.  I'm not sure in what other way I can say it. 

That is my point.  You are taking it for granted that those two statements are mutually exclusive.  I am asking you to show how they are.  Under your reasoning here, anything that is critical is not loving per se; that it can be one, but if it is, it is impossible to be the other.
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« Reply #132 on: April 07, 2009, 04:42:28 PM »

I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".


All of these are interpretations of facts and situations and not blatant falsehoods.

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Sure, I'll pick out a few.  First off the assertion that unity under Constantinople is being under a "Pope".  He says that's one model of unity.  That's not how churches under the Omophorion of Constantinople operate though.  That is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

I'm sure any number of our Old Calendarist brethren would agree with the assertion that the EP often acts dangerously close to the episcopal model present in the Roman Catholic Church.  Again, we can argue that His Beatitude's interpretation is wrong, but he most certainly is not outright lying.  One has to know that a fact is wrong in order to misrepresent it.

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How about the assertion that the Old World hierarchs simply "don't understand there are Americans who are Orthodox".  Really, none of them do?

I believe that Metropolitan Jonah wasn't speaking of each of them individually but, as a group in the most general terms.  Do you honestly believe that each and every Old World hierarch knows what it means to be an American and, more importantly, an American Orthodox Christian?

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How about this whole section (taken from serb1389's helpful word doc)

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I don’t think the Holy Fathers in the Phanar understand that we are a church, albeit, with separate administrations, but that has a common value of determining our own destiny.  A church that is dedicated to the conciliar process which does not ignore the voice of the laity, which does not ignore the voice of the priests.  A church which is united in its common commitment. Because, we are orthodox not simply by birth, we are orthodox not simply by our ethnic heritage, we are orthodox because we have chosen to be orthodox.  We are orthodox because we have committed our entire life to Jesus Christ and the Gospel.  

I guess being under Constantinople means the voice of the laity is ignored, the priests are ignored, the is no common commitment to anything and the conciliar process is ignored.  Being under Constantinople means nobody could possibly imagine that one could be Orthodox and not be of some ethnicity.  I guess all of that is just true because it's "common knowledge".  "Common knowledge" like ethnic Orthodox are interested in politics and money and converts understand the Gospel.  Right?  Everyone knows that.

Considering each and every Orthodox jurisdiction under the EP (and others!) in this country has an ethnic identifier before the word "Orthodox" in its name, both officially (eg legal status) and colloquially, it's not a jump to believe that the Old World hierarchs have little interest in establishing an American Orthodox Church instead of just catering to a "diaspora".  Ask your average man on the street.  Chances are that if he has even heard of Orthodoxy, he'll only think of it as either Greek or Russian.

I am not nor have I ever been a part of any "diaspora". 

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Not to some kind of alien ideology, not to some nationalist or imperialist ideology from some forgotten empire.  Not the imposition of foreign customs, and the submission to foreign despots – but to a united church in this country.

Part of this is debatable, part is not even clear what he means, and part is slander.

I'll admit that the wording is strange, but I see nothing objectionable.

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« Reply #133 on: April 07, 2009, 04:44:19 PM »

I was thinking more of sincerity than the other two.  You can't tell someone you want to love them and then accuse them of being subject to someone who you think is evil or corrupt.  I don't know how I can be more clear.  I can't tell you that I love you and then accuse you of being ruled by your evil step-mother.  That is not love.  I'm not sure in what other way I can say it. 

That is my point.  You are taking it for granted that those two statements are mutually exclusive.  I am asking you to show how they are.  Under your reasoning here, anything that is critical is not loving per se; that it can be one, but if it is, it is impossible to be the other.

I see your point.  Maybe i'm not using my terms correctly.  If he thinks that approaching the ecumenical patriarchate in this way is LOVE, then what Fr. Elpidoforos did was in love.  So why this kind of reaction by us?  I'm not sure, maybe because none of us really believe that it is from love.  But hey, it very well could be.  Like you said, just b/c it's critical doesn't mean it's not loving.  If that is the case then, all this is, is just an expression of their love for each other, and we should all not be so scandalized.  I'm cool with thinking about it that way.   Smiley
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« Reply #134 on: April 07, 2009, 04:47:42 PM »

Ok... Is anyone noticing a pattern here? The only ones really arguing against the OCA are those that are members of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese or otherwise under the Ecumenical Patriarch... The only ones really arguing for it so far are OCA...
What do other Orthodox say? (and you cannot answer for others)
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