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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!  (Read 40956 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #450 on: April 16, 2009, 08:27:49 AM »

Seems to me that some of y'all are indeed ganging up on folks who are persistent in not bending to your views.  Speaking for myself, I do enjoy the information that Father Ambrose and Isa have shared with us. Both of these gentlemen have been most courteous, even when taunted and provoked.

There may be others who don't feel that Isa is beating a dead horse. In any case, why say that to him, setting off a shark feeding frenzy? Just ignore him.  And, let others enjoy the scholarship, erudition, wisdom and logic of this wonder poster. Incidentally, I feel the same way about Father Ambrose as well.

All true, no doubt, but when such impressive erudition is used to proof-text history in jihad-ish fashion, it gets very tedious.
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« Reply #451 on: April 16, 2009, 09:35:43 AM »

Seems to me that some of y'all are indeed ganging up on folks who are persistent in not bending to your views.  Speaking for myself, I do enjoy the information that Father Ambrose and Isa have shared with us. Both of these gentlemen have been most courteous, even when taunted and provoked.

There may be others who don't feel that Isa is beating a dead horse. In any case, why say that to him, setting off a shark feeding frenzy? Just ignore him.  And, let others enjoy the scholarship, erudition, wisdom and logic of this wonder poster. Incidentally, I feel the same way about Father Ambrose as well.

All true, no doubt, but when such impressive erudition is used to proof-text history

Proof text?  By no means.  Links and citations are provided: one can read and judge for themselves.

Met. Jonah complains of the EP's proof texting of canon 28, and so do I.  None of the examples the Chief Secretary provide support his thesis: I haven't been able to get beyond the opening of the Chief Secretary's speech in my formal critique, but I have covered a lot in passing, for instance:
Looking for something else, I came across this:
Quote
Meletios was the first Patriarch to be recognized by royal decree, as Egypt, by then was not part of the Ottoman Empire. His constructive work was completed with the establishment of the hieratical school "Saint Athanasios". He also rebuilt the holy church of Saint Nikolaos in Cairo with funds donated by Theodoros Kotsikas and transferred the Patriarchical library to Alexandria.
He systematized the Ecclesiastical Courts, and established the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate on all of Africa, and instituted the title "All Africa" instead of "All Egypt". By the year 1935, our Patriarchate was ready to claim a leadership position among all the other sister Orthodox Churches.
http://www.greece.org/arts-culture/alex-new/html/history2.html#4

Btw, I think the "All Africa" was first instituted by the Copts.

Anyways, it seems that the Chief Secretary
Quote
Under the provision of which canon did Constantinople give the right of jurisdiction over the remaining of Africa to the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 2002?
is not only wrong but at least 66 years off in his dating.

Seems we didn't wait for his All-Holiness:
Quote
In 1926, Meletios Metaxakis, a memorable figure, was elected Patriarch of Alexandria. A man of a practical turn of mind, he decided to establish the organization of the Patriarchate of Alexandria on new foundations and to resolve the numerous problems that had been building up since the previous century. One of his first achievements was the publication of the Regulations of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, on 15 May 1930. At last, due attention was paid to the life of the metropolitan bishoprics and the parishes in its entirety, including ritual, the sacraments and even the judicial aspects of life. Meletios also founded the Seminary of St Athanasios. In his time, the Patriarchate supervised ten metropolitan provinces, 90 churches 5 monasteries and 107 parish priests. On his initiative, an Organic Law of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria was drawn up and passed, laying down the manner in which the Patriarch was to be elected and the rights, which he would exercise. In his consultations with the Anglicans, Meletios did much to usher in a new era. The term of se6rvice of Patriarch Christophoros (1939-1967) would best be described as one of large-scale projects and renovation. New metropolitan bishoprics were set -up throughout the Dark Continent, and official recognition was granted to the African Orthodox communities. This move did much to consolidate the Patriarchate's missionary activities abroad.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/makarios_patriarchate_alexandria.htm

Quote
in jihad
Might be an Arab word, but it's not the practice of this Arab.

Quote
-ish fashion,

it gets very tedious.

Well, let's make it simple: can anyone name an application of canon 28 as the EP applies it now that predates the Phyletism Council of 1872? or, as I call it, the "Pot and Kettle" Synod (perhaps unjustly, as I have not been able to locate the full text of the synod, so I am going just by the context and the excerpts I have seen.

Does anyone have the text of the uncanonical agreement between the EP and CoG in 1908 regarding the so-called "diaspora?"  Does it mention canon 28?
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« Reply #452 on: April 16, 2009, 09:40:51 AM »

Statement of the Order of Saint Andrew, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in America

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=306
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« Reply #453 on: April 16, 2009, 09:49:06 AM »

Statement of the Order of Saint Andrew, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in America

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=306

A very restrained response, I suppose.
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« Reply #454 on: April 16, 2009, 10:16:36 AM »

Statement of the Order of Saint Andrew, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in America

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=306

The archons are very clearly devoted to the service of the Ecumenical throne and, as their sites says, to the upholding of Orthodox morality and true teaching and supreme ideals.  His Divine All-Holiness holds them in great esteeem in return.  Here are his words  to an American archon Senator Paul Sarbanes of Maryland when the Ecumenical Patriarch was in the US in 1997:



"But among them all [the Greek Orthodox Christians in America], as Ecumenical Patriarch, we desire to single out one man who sums up your love for the Mother Church, for Orthodox culture, for the highest Christian ideals, Senator Paul Sarbanes. We express our fatherly pride in this accomplished son of the Mother Church; for his unwavering pursuit of righteousness and truth in both his public service to the Church and to the people of the United States of America. Well done, good and faithful servant!"

Source:  OrthodoxyToday.org
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« Reply #455 on: April 16, 2009, 10:33:41 AM »

Isa, Isa...are you so into violent debate, been so traumatized by your CAF sojourn that when you come to a forum of your own brothers and sisters you just can't resist making war? As you have no shame, I'll give some of mine...I have plenty to spare.
You can't see your own myopia. On one hand you defend the "autocephalous" OCA by noting so-and-so "old world patriarchs" recognize that status when in fact one of them, the largest AND the mother church of the OCA, itself still maintains 54 parishes in North America directly as well as a completely separate diocese (ROCOR)....all within the territory of the OCA. Does this matter to you? Apparently not as you ignore how that alone undermines your own argument.
Please, take your pot-kettle observation elsewhere. You seem to be both.
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« Reply #456 on: April 16, 2009, 10:37:42 AM »

Statement of the Order of Saint Andrew, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in America

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=306

The archons are very clearly devoted to the service of the Ecumenical throne and, as their sites says, to the upholding of Orthodox morality and true teaching and supreme ideals.  His Divine All-Holiness holds them in great esteeem in return.  Here are his words  to an American archon Senator Paul Sarbanes of Maryland when the Ecumenical Patriarch was in the US in 1997:



"But among them all [the Greek Orthodox Christians in America], as Ecumenical Patriarch, we desire to single out one man who sums up your love for the Mother Church, for Orthodox culture, for the highest Christian ideals, Senator Paul Sarbanes. We express our fatherly pride in this accomplished son of the Mother Church; for his unwavering pursuit of righteousness and truth in both his public service to the Church and to the people of the United States of America. Well done, good and faithful servant!"

Source:  OrthodoxyToday.org


Yea, that's great, the EP professing the greatness of a Senator who has an ideal that differs from the church.......

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« Reply #457 on: April 16, 2009, 11:13:32 AM »

Statement of the Order of Saint Andrew, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in America

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=306

Took them over a week to come up this, huh?

Quote
Who has proposed any kind of subjugation to Constantinople? No one! The fact is that all of the Autocephalous Primates agreed in Constantinople on October 12, 2008 that there should be a swift healing of every canonical anomaly that has arisen from historical circumstances and pastoral requirements, such as in the so-called Orthodox Diaspora, with a view to overcoming every possible influence that is foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology (Article 13, ii). This statement was signed by all the recognized Autocephalous Primates or their Official Representatives. Metropolitan Jonah's statements demonstrate not only a lack of knowledge and of discretion; they demonstrate something which is plainly foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.

yes, we've already heard the EP's line on this, from his Chief Secretary. Ignore the fact that the plurality of Autocephalous Primates and the vast majority of the Orthodox Faithful recognize Met. Jonah (excuse me, Jonas for the EP crew) as an Autocephalous primate, who would be the one most directly impacted by such decisions on the violations of canon 8 of Ephesus.  His presence, however is being blocked by the EP, the real reason behind the EP's "concession" over Estonia.

Btw, I've noticed the Archb. Leo and the Church of Finland is off the EP's web site. Was that because of Archb. Leo's warm embrace of Met. Jonah?

The Chief Secretary's statements demonstrate an obvious lack of history and with his primus theory, heresy.

Which brings up:
Quote
Finally, we, Archons of the Great Church of Christ, must register our concern and pain over the general tone of the Metropolitan's remarks as insulting. When a statement is made, speaking personally about the Ecumenical Patriarch: if we wanted the Pope we'd be under the real one, it is not possible for the Order of Archons to be silent.

Then tell your EP to drop the Ultramontanist trappings.  Otherwise, you can't complain when it is called what it is.

What insult?  With all the "sister Churches" business going on between Old and New Rome, he should be happy with the comparison.

Quote
To maintain that we, Americans, cannot ... be controlled by people who have never heard a word of English much less would allow a word of English to be spoken in the liturgy. We can't allow our church to be controlled by people who have no appreciation of our culture and have to bow to the Turkish Islamic authorities, is an erroneous, irresponsible statement in any public setting, much less a liturgical service. The fact is that Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew speaks six languages, and had a wonderful conversation with the President of the United States in English two days after this inflammatory remark! Furthermore, when the Heads of the Autocephalous Churches celebrated the Holy Liturgy together last October 12th in the Patriarchal Cathedral of St. George, there was an abundance of tongues used, recalling the Day of Pentecost.
Was English one of them?  It is the official language of the OCA, an Autocephalous Church.  Was French?  Spanish?

Anyone heard of the EP speaking with Met. Jonah, in any language?

Quote
This kind of disrespect is beneath any Christian. And we must also ask how a phrase like, Communists who now call themselves Democrats, does not cast aspersions on the very Nation whose martyred Church, the Patriarchate of Moscow, created the OCA in the first place?
I recall in the election where Yeltsin was running behind the communists, he began to run commercials which showed old footage of the Bolsheviks tearing down Churches, summary executions etc, with the message "the Communists haven't changed their name [unlike most post Soviet parties, the Communists in Russia stood by the name brand], what makes you think that they have changed their topics?

If Pat. Kyrill had a problem, I am sure he would let Met. Jonah know.

Quote
As we are in the midst of Holy Days, when we all apply ourselves more vigorously to prayer and fasting, as we strive to follow Christ on His Way to the Cross and His Glorious Resurrection, we hope that Metropolitan Jonah will publicly retract his ill-considered remarks.

Will the EP repudiate his Chief Secretary?

Quote
While we rejoice that all things are forgiven in the Resurrection, as Orthodox Christians and as Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, we will continue to be vigilant and express our grave concerns whenever such injustices as these are committed.
Like against canon 8 of Ephesus?
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« Reply #458 on: April 16, 2009, 12:07:21 PM »

Isa, Isa...are you so into violent debate, been so traumatized by your CAF sojourn that when you come to a forum of your own brothers and sisters you just can't resist making war?
I battle the heresy of Ultramontanism, within or without the Church.

Quote
As you have no shame, I'll give some of mine...I have plenty to spare.
You can't see your own myopia. On one hand you defend the "autocephalous" OCA by noting so-and-so "old world patriarchs" recognize that status when in fact one of them, the largest AND the mother church of the OCA,
The one who gave the OCA autocephaly and the one who has backed it, and has stood behind Met. Jonah?

That 'old world patriarch'?

Quote
itself still maintains 54 parishes in North America directly as well as a completely separate diocese (ROCOR)....all within the territory of the OCA. Does this matter to you?

As it does not matter to the Met. of All America and Canada, not particularly.

Given the times of the Tomos, it was a good solution.  Several, as envisioned in the Tomos, have joined the OCA.

Better under a friendly patriarch, than one's whose Chief Secretary would use them as a propoganda tool:
Quote
Metropolitan Jonas claims that in America “there is no common expression of unity that supersedes ethnic linguistic and cultural divisions.” Does His Eminence ignore the fact that under the canonical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in America belong Greeks, Palestinians, Albanians, Ukrainians and Carpathorussians? Is this not proof enough of a common structure that supersedes ethnic and cultural divisions? Does he imply perhaps that SCOBA either constitutes a common expression of unity that supersedes such divisions?

I haven't reached to that point in my critique.  There's a rather interesting history behind this claim.

Quote
Apparently not as you ignore how that alone undermines your own argument.
Please, take your pot-kettle observation elsewhere. You seem to be both.
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« Reply #459 on: April 16, 2009, 12:53:09 PM »

There's a rather interesting history behind this claim,

part of which has been dealt recently here:
Btw, I came across this:
The Archbishop of America told JP clergy that they would never receive a release from the JP and that in order to remain canonical they had to sign his 'declaration'.  I understood that the Russian had missions in CA? Fort Ross?  Anyway the EP is not THE canonical church in the USA.  There are others who have the right to be there.  As for bishops deciding all matters without informing their people, reduces them to Corporate Managers NOT shepherds of their flocks. 
Phanariotism is alive and well in the, well, Phanar, and in Jerusalem.  Which is not well.

So we going to replicate the scandalous situation in Jerusalem in the US, Arab faithful and a Greek hiearchy indifferent to them?

The whole situation on that thread is rather interesting, in that the GOA constitution itself states, in pertinent part:
Quote
c.- The Archdiocese receives within its ranks and under its spiritual aegis and pastoral care Orthodox Christians, who either as individuals or as organized groups in Dioceses and Parishes have voluntarily come to it and which acknowledge the supreme spiritual, ecclesiastical and canonical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. In the case of the coming to the Archdiocese of organized groups, either Orthodox or heterodox, the opinion and approval of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is required, as it exercises its ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the Orthodox in the Diaspora.
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/documents/charterpage/index_html
Emphasis added.

Quote
Apparently not as you ignore how that alone undermines your own argument.

Grasping at straws are we?

I seems the hierarchs in question have no problem:
Quote
Regarding the Elevation of the Name of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes During the Divine Services
 
It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.”
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=984&id=9002&ln=en

The Tomos of Autocephaly is on the Patriarchal Parishes Website, as a "Main Basic Document of the Russian Orthodox Church"
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1318&id=2171&ln=en

Of course, a bigger question would be how the EP not only violates the canons in having 60 parishes, but has the unmittigated gaul to come to Estonia and demand that the canonical primate Cornelius (like Patriarch Alexei, born, bred, raised, ordained, and elevated in Estonia, unlike the Congo Greek bishop Stephanos) leave.  And if that wasn't enough, "canonized" St. Platon, already canonized by the canonical Estonian Church.

On Estonia:
Quote
It was not enough that the leadership of the Constantinople jurisdiction in Estonia did not enable the realisation of the aforementioned accords on equal rights (as before, the majority of our parishes have to rent their church buildings) but continues to discredit the EOC of the Moscow Patriarchate. We are described as being avaricious for our insistence on having property rights. At the same time, it is forgotten that we have renounced claims to the land and houses that once belonged to our parishes, having requested that we are given back our sacred objects as property without having to fear any “surprises”. The present head of the EOC, Metropolitan Stephanos, appointed to the Tallinn see by the Patriarch of Constantinople, in spite of the fact that it is legitimately occupied by Vladyka Cornelius, to this day does not speak Estonian (unlike Metropolitan Cornelius and His Holiness Aleksei II), and never misses an opportunity to portray the EOC of the Moscow Patriarchate in the eyes of the state as a “fifth column”. When the EAOC joined the World Council of Churches, Metropolitan Stephanos promised that he would not hinder our re-entry into the same organisation (of which we could not be members as a result of not being registered by the state, even though we are one of its founders). The good bishop’s memory failed him as soon as the question was put on the table. What of the article by Metropolitan Stephanos in the Greek newspaper Vima in 2006 where Patriarch Aleksei II is declared to be a “supporter of the Zionist system” and a persecutor of Estonian Orthodoxy?
http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/the-ninetieth-anniversary-of-the-estonian-orthodox-church-moscow-patriarchate/

Quote
Please, take your pot-kettle observation elsewhere. You seem to be both.
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« Reply #460 on: April 16, 2009, 12:58:53 PM »

Isa, in all honesty, if the Moscow Patriarchate maintains a permanent diaspora; how is that any less "ultramontane" than Constantinople?  How is it any more canonical?
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« Reply #461 on: April 16, 2009, 02:08:05 PM »

Isa, in all honesty, if the Moscow Patriarchate maintains a permanent diaspora; how is that any less "ultramontane" than Constantinople?  How is it any more canonical?

Let's address the bold faced first.

From the Tomos:
Quote
For a number of years, the Russian Orthodox Church has observed with maternal love and concern the development of the Orthodox Church which she planted on the American continent. In the last few decades she has sorrowfully witnessed the unfortunate appearance there of a pluralism of ecclesiastical jurisdictions, a temporary phenomenon, and by no means a permanent norm of the canonical organization of the Orthodox Church in America, since it is contrary to the nature of Orthodox canonical ecclesiastical unity.

The Holy Russian Orthodox Church, striving for the good of the Church, has directed her efforts toward the normalization of relations among the various ecclesiastical jurisdictions in America, particularly by negotiating with the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, concerning the possibility of granting autocephaly to this Church in the hope that this might serve the good of the Orthodox Church in America and the glory of God.

3. The following are excluded from autocephaly on the territory of North America:

b. Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which at present are in the Patriarchal Exarchate and which desire to remain in the canonical and jurisdictional care of the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia – these parishes, desiring to remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and excluded from the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America are the following:

4. St. Nicholas Cathedral and its possessions and residence, and also the property in Pine Bush, New York, shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through a person representing him in the rank of Presbyter.

5. Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops; not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below

6. Parishes and clergy which at this time constitute the Edmonton, Canada Diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate and remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

7. The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.

8. The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above mentioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.

9. The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes themselves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Autocephalous Church in America.

10. The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

13. The Exarchate of North and South America, together with the dioceses in the U.S.A. and Canada which comprised it, is abolished.

Confirming the Autocephaly of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, we bless her to call herself The Holy Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America; we acknowledge and proclaim her our Sister Church, and we invite all local Orthodox Churches and their Primates and their faithful children to acknowledge her as such and to include her in the dyptichs in accordance with the Canons of the Church, the traditions of the Fathers and ecclesiastical practice.

The newly-established local Orthodox Autocephalous Church in America should abide in brotherly relations with all the Orthodox Churches and their Primates as well as with their bishops, clergy and pious flock, who are in America and who for the time being preserve their de facto existing canonical and jurisdictional dependence on their national Churches and their Primates.
http://www.oca.org/DOCtomos.asp?SID=12

Someone on this thread linked linked spoke of the status in terms the EP spoke of in Estonia:
I'm fairly certain that's how Patriarchal parishes have always been supposed to do it (just updated to reflect the new Patriarch and Metropolitan). Under the OCA's Tomos, those North American parishes that remained under the MP have the technical (if not functional) status of representation churches. That is, they are 'guest' parishes in the territory of another Church. And it is standard at representation churches to commemorate both the church's own hierarchy and the actual hierarch of the territory they are located in. Thus the OCA's representation church in Moscow also commemorates Patriarch Kiril and Metropolitan Jonah (though in reverse order).



From the mouth of the EP:
Quote
The Estonian Orthodox Church (EOC) was granted autonomy in 1923 by the patriarchal and synodal tomos on the petition of the then Metropolitan Alexander of Tallinn and All Estonia. Patriarch Tychon of Moscow also recognized the autonomous status of the Estonian Church in 1920. According to the tradition of the Orthodox Church, such a tomos cannot be annulled. For that reason, Metropolitan Alexander who flew abroad was considered the head of the EOC until his death in 1953. After that, Metropolitan of Thyatira and Great Britain was named as his locum tenens and an Estonian called Mûri Välbe was ordained vicar bishop. He served as a bishop until his death in 1961. But because of well-known historic conditions, the EOC could not act in homeland under the Soviet regime. So our predecessor, memorable Patriarch Demetrios arrested the operation of the tomos of 1923 in Estonia.
As the conditions changed, however, it was possible recently to restore the EOC and so on 1996 the tomos of 1923 was again brought into operation by a patriarchal and synodal act. According to an agreement reached in Geneva, every parish in Estonia could freely choose whether to be under the jurisdiction of the EOC or the Moscow Patriarchate.  It meant clearly one thing: that there exists, on one band, an autonomous Orthodox Church in Estonia, which continues of the activity of the pre-war EOC and on the other hand, there are parishes which are under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. There is no second local Orthodox Church here - this is forbidden by the canons - but the spiritual presence of the Moscow Patriarchate is to certain limits extended into the territory of another Church. This is an economy (a concession to the exact sense of the canons) and is analogous to the system of exarchates and stauropegic monasteries and parishes.
http://www.orthodoxa.org/GB/patriarchate/travel/conferencepresseGB.htm

Btw, speaking of being in someone else's Church, why does the Romanian patriarch claim to be locum tenens of Caesares in Cappodocia?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 02:17:24 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #462 on: April 16, 2009, 02:44:48 PM »

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For a number of years, the Russian Orthodox Church has observed with maternal love and concern the development of the Orthodox Church which she planted on the American continent. In the last few decades she has sorrowfully witnessed the unfortunate appearance there of a pluralism of ecclesiastical jurisdictions, a temporary phenomenon, and by no means a permanent norm of the canonical organization of the Orthodox Church in America, since it is contrary to the nature of Orthodox canonical ecclesiastical unity.

But actually it is the norm Isa, based on the understanding of the Moscow Patriarchate itself.  Read the statute of the ROC

Quote
The jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church shall include persons of Orthodox confession living on the canonical territory of the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, Ukraine, Byelorussia, Moldavia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia, Latvia, Lithuania, Tajikistan, Turkmenia, Uzbekistan and Estonia and also Orthodox Christians living in other countries and voluntarily joining this jurisdiction .

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1318&id=2109&ln=en

In other words, they maintain a permanent diaspora which can reach in to the territory of any other national church.  That actually posits a kind of "universal jurisdiction" that even outstrips what Constantinople sees as its own.  You can belong to the ROC no matter where you are.  In my opinion, that is even less canonical and less adhering to the tradition of church organization.  That is all on top of the fact that there is another body dedicated to serving the Russian diaspora outside of the traditional borders of the ROC.

They have actually violated their own tomos.  Not just by their continued presence here, but by their very self understanding.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 02:46:05 PM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #463 on: April 16, 2009, 03:45:01 PM »

Quote
For a number of years, the Russian Orthodox Church has observed with maternal love and concern the development of the Orthodox Church which she planted on the American continent. In the last few decades she has sorrowfully witnessed the unfortunate appearance there of a pluralism of ecclesiastical jurisdictions, a temporary phenomenon, and by no means a permanent norm of the canonical organization of the Orthodox Church in America, since it is contrary to the nature of Orthodox canonical ecclesiastical unity.

But actually it is the norm Isa, based on the understanding of the Moscow Patriarchate itself.  Read the statute of the ROC

Quote
The jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church shall include persons of Orthodox confession living on the canonical territory of the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, Ukraine, Byelorussia, Moldavia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia, Latvia, Lithuania, Tajikistan, Turkmenia, Uzbekistan and Estonia and also Orthodox Christians living in other countries and voluntarily joining this jurisdiction .

http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1318&id=2109&ln=en

In other words, they maintain a permanent diaspora which can reach in to the territory of any other national church.  That actually posits a kind of "universal jurisdiction" that even outstrips what Constantinople sees as its own.  You can belong to the ROC no matter where you are.  In my opinion, that is even less canonical and less adhering to the tradition of church organization.

Your interpretation is the problem, not the Statute.

First, let's raise it to the level of parish, as individual Orthodox can come and go rather freely de facto and de jure.  Parishes are where the canons really come in, not to mention dioceses and bishops.

By terms of the Tomos of Autocephaly for the Orthodox Church in America, the Moscow Patriarchate can NOT found new parishes in North America.  Says so in the Statute you quote:
Quote
4. The Russian Orthodox Church exercises its activities with respect of and adherence to the acting laws in each state on the basis of:
c) the resolutions of its Local and Bishops’ Councils and the Holy Synod and the Decrees of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

Which would include the Tomos.

Where also are you getting the idea that the ROC claims it can claim any jurisdiction in any other national, i.e. local meaning autocephalous (at least according to the SoROC)
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1. The Russian Orthodox Church is a multinational Local Autocephalous Church in doctrinal unity and in prayerful and canonical communion with other Local Orthodox Churches.
1. The church institutions in the distant abroad (hereinafter called ‘institutions located abroad’) shall be dioceses, deaneries, parishes, stavropegic and diocesan monasteries, as well as missions, representations and church representations located outside the borders of the countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States and the Baltic countries.
4. The institutions located abroad shall be established and abolished by the decision of the Holy Synod. The representations and church representations located abroad shall be stavropegic.

This would cover areas like China, where the Russian Church maintains its missions, and is indeed in part, started and remains, in Diaspora.  It also covers the Church of Japan, which is autonomous.

It also covers the Diaspora of the Russian Orthodox in Antarctica

http://img.rian.ru/images/6278/09/62780981.jpg

And it seems would include the North Pole (or does the EP claim that too, as outside the terriory of the Patriarch of Moscow, All Russia and the Northern Lands?)

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For the past several years, the liturgy has been offered at an Orthodox church situated at a Russian polar research station in Antarctica. Now, the first liturgy has been served at the North Pole. Mayor Vladislav Skvortsov of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatski was baptised at the service, and Deacon Roman Nikitin of the Missionary Department of the Diocese of Kamchatka, a young man who preaches both to the people in the local region and to a vast audience on the internet, was ordained to the priesthood in the course of this liturgy

The Divine Liturgy celebrated at the North Pole was a victory for our Faith, it was a new Feast of the Triumph of Orthodoxy, and it was an illuminating example of the universality of our Orthodox faith. This shows abundantly that the Orthodox Church is the spiritual fountainhead of the Russian people. The liturgy at the North Pole was made possible by the new symphonia between the Church and the State, which resulted in closely co-ordinated efforts by the hierarchy and government. The flight to the Pole was on board one of the aircraft of the Border Forces of the Federal Security Service (FSB). This cooperation was the good fruit of the missionary efforts of the Church to those serving in the forces, especially to those defenders of the motherland on duty in the Navy and the FSB.

and I guess space:
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Remember the words of the famous Moscow missionary priest Hegumen Sergei Rybko. Partly in earnest and partly in jest, he said, “The Lord created other planets for Orthodox Russian colonisation. So, in our century, we may live to see not only an Arctic exarchate, but, also an exarchate on Mars. Moreover, the ascetic podvig of an Orthodox hermit in cosmic orbit would not be less than those of the early monks in the Egyptian desert”.
http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/
(the end is interesting)
Quote
Russia’s progress and development in the 21st century is impossible without a missionary mobilisation of the Church. The hierarchical liturgy at the North Pole is an example of such a mobilisation.

It may also leave South America open.  It definitely leaves Western Europe open.

So no, you are not free to start up a parish of the ROC anywhere where you are.

If you can come up with an example of the ROC so setting up a parish or bishop within the territory of ANY Autocephalous Church (except Romania), post and so we will know.

Quote
That is all on top of the fact that there is another body dedicated to serving the Russian diaspora outside of the traditional borders of the ROC.

ROCOR?  Does the Statute of the Russian Orthodox Church predate the Act of Canonical Communion? in which case there would be no mention of ROCOR.

Quote
They have actually violated their own tomos.  Not just by their continued presence here, but by their very self understanding.
You seem to have misunderstood.
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« Reply #464 on: April 18, 2009, 07:24:06 PM »

You can belong to the ROC no matter where you are.  In my opinion, that is even less canonical and less adhering to the tradition of church organization. 

There are no restrictions of admission of an individual faithful into any church based on his residence. Canonical restrictions apply to establishing bishops.
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« Reply #465 on: April 20, 2009, 10:32:44 PM »

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Your interpretation is the problem, not the Statute.

No, the problem is the statute and the allowance of a situation that is completely at odds with the supposed canonical norms of the church.  Both are wrong though (Moscow and Cosntantinople), so this is not a matter of one side being right or wrong.  The MP sees itself as a transnational church with potential universal reach as stated by their own self understanding.  That's why they have no problem for instance maintaining parishes in Finland, on the territory of another autonomous church.

Either the church is as some say a body of local churches under a bishop split up in to different geographic areas, or its some sort of hodge podge where anybody can join up with anybody they wish.

Read the interview with Metropolitan Philip where he says there are Antiochians in Athens but no Antiochian bishops or parishes, they just go under the care of the local bishop.  He must see something here that isn't right.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:33:17 PM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #466 on: April 20, 2009, 10:49:22 PM »

Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon:

http://www.oca.org/news/1822
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« Reply #467 on: April 20, 2009, 11:34:06 PM »

Quote
Your interpretation is the problem, not the Statute.

No, the problem is the statute and the allowance of a situation that is completely at odds with the supposed canonical norms of the church. 
Only if pastoral concerns are not part of the Church.

Quote
Both are wrong though (Moscow and Cosntantinople), so this is not a matter of one side being right or wrong.  The MP sees itself as a transnational church with potential universal reach as stated by their own self understanding. 

The Church of Russia IS a transnational Church.  Patriarch Alexei of blessed memory, under whom the Statute was adopted personified that: of German Baltic nobility, born, raised, ordained and elevated in Estonia, he was still a Russian.

Quote
That's why they have no problem for instance maintaining parishes in Finland, on the territory of another autonomous church.

Said parishes are composed of those who have a problem with the New Calendar (including the Latin Paschalion), which have slipped through a) the murky status of the autonomy of Finland which was not granted by Moscow, the Mother Church, but the EP and b) the legal status of the Churches in Finland.  Do have anything official from the Church of Finland on these two parishes?

Quote
Either the church is as some say a body of local churches under a bishop split up in to different geographic areas, or its some sort of hodge podge where anybody can join up with anybody they wish.
No, the Tomos for the US is quite clear: the Patriarchal Parishes either stay where they are, or join the OCA: no other option is open.  Further, Moscow will not open or accept other Orthodox, except uncanonical groups (again, pastoral concerns come into play.  Hence ROCOR in the US).
Quote

Quote
Read the interview with Metropolitan Philip where he says there are Antiochians in Athens but no Antiochian bishops or parishes, they just go under the care of the local bishop.  He must see something here that isn't right.
LOL.  Haven't you heard?  We don't have local bishops in the Antiochian archdiocese.  I would hope he would see more wrong in the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, where there are no local bishops, just a landlord phanariot class imported to ignore the local Faithful.
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« Reply #468 on: April 21, 2009, 12:15:07 AM »

Metropolitan Jonah issues statement on recent sermon:

http://www.oca.org/news/1822
In the light of His Beatitude's apology and retraction of the comments he made which sparked this thread, it is now being locked.
There is currently a thread in the Christian News section on the topic of his apology.
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