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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!  (Read 40991 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2009, 08:22:43 AM »

I'm only against being ruled by a power in a foreign country. I'm not against the country or the people itself. I recognize that we all have our own rich cultures and ethnicities. However, I also recognize that America is a union of all of them, and is a celebration of all of them while recognizing that in America, we are all one, and ruled by a (well, it's supposed to be) President that represents us all.
We are NOT ruled by any foreign leader that lives thousands of miles away in a country and culture vastly different from ours who doesn't understand the fundamentals and the essence of being American.

Why did America fight for it's independence in the first place? Because the British King was trying to impose his will upon the colonists here in America. They didn't want to be ruled by a guy that was several thousand miles away across an ocean. They had to fight long and hard for our independence, but they got it, an eventally, all peoples of America... Whether you were from Spain, Britain, France, Netherlands etc... eventually they all became American with independence and ruled by Congress and the President in Washington. With immigrants and natural borns, we all recognize that we are united as Americans. That is what our soldiers die for. That is what our citizens live for... That is the very core of being American... We gained our independence from these other countries, and (at least in the opinion of many) god-forbid if we are going to be ruled by them again.

But also... Remember, that although we fought for our independence over 200 years ago... We also fought to keep ourselves UNITED during our horrible Civil War... Both self rule and unity mean a lot to us... This goes for the Church to... It would be wonderful to be autocephalous, but we will also fight to stay unified with the whole Orthodox world.

Although I be willing to fight to stay self-ruled... I would have to confess that I would be willing to die for Christ and his whole Church. (not just the OCA)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 08:29:41 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2009, 08:24:13 AM »

My God, are you really being serious?
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2009, 08:32:39 AM »

I'm only against being ruled by a power in a foreign country. I'm not against the country or the people itself. I recognize that we all have our own rich cultures and ethnicities. However, I also recognize that America is a union of all of them, and is a celebration of all of them while recognizing that in America, we are all one, and ruled by a (well, it's supposed to be) President that represents us all.
We are NOT ruled by any foreign leader that lives thousands of miles away in a country and culture vastly different from ours who doesn't understand the fundamentals and the essence of being American.

Why did America fight for it's independence in the first place? Because the British King was trying to impose his will upon the colonists here in America. They didn't want to be ruled by a guy that was several thousand miles away across an ocean. They had to fight long and hard for our independence, but they got it, an eventally, all peoples of America... Whether you were from Spain, Britain, France, Netherlands etc... eventually they all became American with independence and ruled by Congress and the President in Washington. With immigrants and natural borns, we all recognize that we are united as Americans. That is what our soldiers die for. That is what our citizens live for... That is the very core of being American... We gained our independence from these other countries, and (at least in the opinion of many) god-forbid if we are going to be ruled by them again.

But also... Remember, that although we fought for our independence over 200 years ago... We also fought to keep ourselves UNITED during our horrible Civil War... Both self rule and unity mean a lot to us... This goes for the Church to... It would be wonderful to be autocephalous, but we will also fight to stay unified with the whole Orthodox world.

Although I be willing to fight to stay self-ruled... I would have to confess that I would be willing to die for Christ and his whole Church. (not just the OCA)

What does that have to do with anything?
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88Devin12
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2009, 08:36:40 AM »

It has to due with the idea of being ruled by a guy thousands of miles away, whether it's the EP, the MP or any other foreign Patriarch. We were given our autocephaly from the MP... We are now self-ruled why should we just submit ourselves to a Patriarch who really doesn't have his own independence and is still under house-arrest by Muslims?

Seriously... If we went under the EP or any other Patriarch, what are the chances of that Patriarch going before Congress or to the President regularly during a time where we need to be a strong united voice? (like during Kosovo)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 08:38:21 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2009, 08:37:09 AM »

I'm only against being ruled by a power in a foreign country. I'm not against the country or the people itself. I recognize that we all have our own rich cultures and ethnicities. However, I also recognize that America is a union of all of them, and is a celebration of all of them while recognizing that in America, we are all one, and ruled by a (well, it's supposed to be) President that represents us all.
We are NOT ruled by any foreign leader that lives thousands of miles away in a country and culture vastly different from ours who doesn't understand the fundamentals and the essence of being American.

Why did America fight for it's independence in the first place? Because the British King was trying to impose his will upon the colonists here in America. They didn't want to be ruled by a guy that was several thousand miles away across an ocean. They had to fight long and hard for our independence, but they got it, an eventally, all peoples of America... Whether you were from Spain, Britain, France, Netherlands etc... eventually they all became American with independence and ruled by Congress and the President in Washington. With immigrants and natural borns, we all recognize that we are united as Americans. That is what our soldiers die for. That is what our citizens live for... That is the very core of being American... We gained our independence from these other countries, and (at least in the opinion of many) god-forbid if we are going to be ruled by them again.

But also... Remember, that although we fought for our independence over 200 years ago... We also fought to keep ourselves UNITED during our horrible Civil War... Both self rule and unity mean a lot to us... This goes for the Church to... It would be wonderful to be autocephalous, but we will also fight to stay unified with the whole Orthodox world.

*Sigh*
- We're not being ruled over by a foreign monarch.  The only "foreign" monarch is Christ.  The leadership of a Patriarch over his Church is hardly synonymous with even the meager level of control a constitutional monarch has over their own Church - a Patriarch on their own has no authority outside of their own diocese, besides being president of a Synod.  While the synod itself holds real power (and, for most of us who are not OCA, at least one of our American hierarchs sits on the Synod), it rarely exercises it.  99% of day-to-day decisions, problems, etc. are caused by people right here, for better or worse.

- Yes, one can and should point out that the 1% includes things like the reorganization of the AOA or the imposition of an unqualified bishop or something like that, as if (a) we wouldn't make mistakes on our own, (b) the mistakes separate us from Christ, or (c) the mistakes aren't reversible.  But we do make mistakes on our own (and in some cases, repeatedly, before we get it right), we have not been separated from Christ, and if a mistake has been made, it is always reversible.

- Freedom is not an Orthodox principle, virtue, etc.  Orthodoxy exists and thrives where it wills to, under persecution, etc.  The only time when the Church has encouraged freedom is when the people were enslaved in their own countries!  And even in a few instances, local Churches have supported war erroneously, or in a short-sighted manner.  The American desire for freedom is frequently a desire for no oversight but self-oversight - a desire that contradicts a host of Christian principles and teachings, such as obedience, humility, spiritual guidance, collective correction & oversight, etc.
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2009, 08:40:14 AM »

"'There is an American Orthodox Church. Leave it alone.'"
Okie Dokie.
You're on your own.

No, he's not.
His Holiness Patriarch Kirill refers to the "demons of feeble impertinence" - taken to be an understated and oblique reference to the speech at Holy Cross of the Chief Secretary of the Sacred Synod.
Your Beatitude!

I sincerely welcome your visit to the St. Nicholas Cathedral of the Moscow Patriarchate in the city of New York, this memorable and holy place connected with the life and service of St. Tikhon.

Your first visit as head of the Orthodox Church in America to the Representation of the Moscow Patriarchate in the USA and to a parish of the Russian Orthodox Church comes during the week of the Cross, when the Honorable Cross stands before us for reverential worship and adoration. May the *invincible and inscrutable power of the honorable and life-giving Cross* strengthen the love between our Churches and overcome the *demons of feeble impertinence.*

Having passed over the course of Great Lent in peace, I wish you a joyous Pascha. I await the upcoming visit of Your Beatitude in Moscow.

With love in the Lord,
Kyrill
Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia


[*Emphasis in original.]


Actually, the majority of the Orthodox in the world recognize him as autocephalous.  And since NO ONE buys the EP's interpretation on canon 28 of Chalcedon, even those in his own patriarchate, Met. Jonah a bit up on him on that.
The majority of Orthodox WHOM?  If you go by majority of Orthodox faithful, then you MIGHT have a valid point, since the Russian Orthodox Church appears to have more communicants than any other Orthodox jurisdiction in the world.  However, the Orthodox faithful really don't have much say in this matter.  However, if you go by majority of Orthodox primates, the heads of national/regional churches who actually have a say, then I think you're dead wrong.
The majority of communicants commemorate through their hiearchs Met. Jonah as autocephalous.

A plurality (6) of primates recognize Met. Jonah as autocephalous. 4 primates are "neutral," 5 against.  Those 9, however, don't have a consistent story amongst themselves: the four "neutrals" and 3 of the cons have/have had their own jurisdictions in the "barbarian lands" that the EP claims.  How much independent say 3 of the cons have is another question.

However, if you go by majority of Orthodox primates, the heads of national/regional churches who actually have a say, then I think you're dead wrong.

Recognise: Russia, Poland, Czech Lands ans Slovakia, Bulgaria
Opposed: Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece, Cyprus

The rest don't have any official statements. The numbers are equal.

Georgia is on the pro list.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 08:53:26 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2009, 08:44:12 AM »

Either way, I'm done arguing, I've wasted an hour and a half of my time this morning fighting a fight that isn't mine to fight... It needs to be left to the hierarchs to fight this out. I need to focus on living my own life...
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2009, 08:45:17 AM »

Spiffing.
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2009, 08:46:59 AM »

Either way, I'm done arguing, I've wasted an hour and a half of my time this morning fighting a fight that isn't mine to fight... It needs to be left to the hierarchs to fight this out.

That, unfortunately, is possibly what we've all done here in these constant discussions on MP/EP/OCA/AOA/AP/GOC/TOC/etc..

I need to focus on living my own life...

And, thankfully, we all have the freedom to do that.  I hope the rest of Lent and Holy Week is a blessed one for you!
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2009, 08:49:31 AM »

^Amen!
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2009, 09:10:35 AM »

I was actually wondering if Met. Jonah would even be invited to the pan orthodox meeting in June anyway,

I doubt that his invitation got lost in the mail.  All that nonsense from the Chief Secretary over the EP's "concession" over autonmous Churches like Estonia indicates that.

Well firstly I don't think he was even sent an invitation, because he is not recognized as an autocephalous church in the dyptichs and etc.

In other words, the EP was stacking the deck with "foregone" conclusions.

Quote
Secondly, the concession was for the Moscow Patriarchate, not for the OCA, so not sure how that supports your statement here...
It's not a secret that the talk in Moscow was to bring the OCA: at the very least it is an autonomous part of the Russian Church, and if the EP insited that "Autonomous Churches will be invited," the OCA was going to be crashing the party.
 
since he is not recognized by the orthodox in the world as autocephalous.

Actually, the majority of the Orthodox in the world recognize him as autocephalous.  And since NO ONE buys the EP's interpretation on canon 28 of Chalcedon, even those in his own patriarchate, Met. Jonah a bit up on him on that. 

I was always under the impression that only a handful (at best) of the churches accepted the autocephaly.

Six.  That's one short of half.  And it represents about 3/4s of the Orthodox communicants in the world.

I'm not sure where that information would be, but it would be good if we got an official ruling on that one, since we've been throwing it around a lot. 

Actually if no one bought the interpretation why is everyone allowing him to utilize the interpretation?  Seems to be a mistake in logic here...

LOL.  Who let him utilize it?  Who, of the 4 who have taken no position against, and have jurisdictions in the New World, have sought recognition from the EP?  Especially that 3 (the 4th Romania, I am not sure of) it is admitted, got their start by breaking off from the Russian jurisdiction, which they acknowledged aforeto?  What of the 3 against, who set up their own parishes without approval from the EP?

Take the debate between Old and New Rome from the Second Ecumenical Council onwards.  Change Constantinople to "North America,"  change Constantinople to "Old Rome," change primacy/honor to "autocephaly."  Compare and laugh at how the EP's arguments against the OCA resemble the Ultramontanist arguments for the supremacy of the Pope of Old Rome.  Like the Met. said, if we wanted a "pope," we know where we could get the "real" one.
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« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2009, 09:14:14 AM »

That, unfortunately, is possibly what we've all done here in these constant discussions on MP/EP/OCA/AOA/AP/GOC/TOC/etc..

I wonder if Christ ever says this to the Theotokos in Heaven?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCvg5dMBqDE
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« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2009, 09:14:54 AM »

Obviously the thought of a peaceful time of fasting is an alien concept to the hierarchy.

During this Fast we have had

1.  Antioch adopt a major and controversial change in Orthodox ecclesiology - trhe abolition of the diocesan episcopate.

2.  Constantinople throw a major challenge at the entire diaspora and insult the Primates of the OCA and the AOAA

3.  The OCA issue its own counter statement, itself massively controversial.

So, if you're experiencing an unsettled Lent because of these things, ask yourself who inflicted them on the Church at this holy time of the year.
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2009, 09:20:17 AM »

Purple demons, of course.
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« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2009, 09:27:30 AM »

Purple demons, of course.

I've never been much for the "the Devil made me do it" affirmative defense.
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« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2009, 09:28:51 AM »

Purple demons, of course.

I've never been much for the "the Devil made me do it" affirmative defense.

Better than the circular firing squad Irish Hermit was apparently trying to round up.
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« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2009, 09:33:08 AM »

Purple demons, of course.

I've never been much for the "the Devil made me do it" affirmative defense.

Don't let the demons fool you. The anger which should be directed at them they deflect towards people.
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« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2009, 09:39:03 AM »

Better than the circular firing squad Irish Hermit was apparently trying to round up.

If only!  Grin   During the course of this Fast the poor American Orthodox have had three major rockets fired at them.  That must be awfully unsettling for the Church in America.   This nobody Irish Hermit offers his prayers.
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« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2009, 09:44:22 AM »

Purple demons, of course.

Yup.
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« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2009, 10:14:03 AM »

Well, the gloves are off. Point and counterpoint have been made. I pray that any discussion on this forum will not degenerate into antagonisms. It is a given that some folks will disagree: I hope we will stay civil.

That said, I agree with Metropolitan Jonah. I also like that he made a point of conciliarity where the voices of the lower clergy and laity will not be suppressed or ignored (I am paraphrasing).

You know...I really don't think it's gona happen.  Until about now I was gona respond very angrily to what you had just said.  But you know what...it is better for us to have fruitful dialogue than angry dialogue. 

I think there are a lot of problems in this speach.  Many holes and improper statements. 
Name one.

Quote
"There are those there who say there was no canonical Orthodox Church in North America until 1924" until the Ecumenical Patriarchate established the Greek Orthodox Archidocese here, Jonah said.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/04/metropolitan-jonah-ecumenical.html

Who has said this?  I would call this an improper statement.

Who? Plenty.

It seems the GOA site is down, but I recollect that no mention of the Russian Synod appears in the "Our Faith/history" section.  Just the New Smyrna colony (not mentioning its priest was under orders from the Vatican) and the parish in New Orleans (not mentioning that its priest was a Ukrainian renegade expelled monk who quickly ran off to SF to harrass the Russian bishop, and picked up a wife).

Now, it's up but irratic.  I got this:
Quote
Our Church is called the "Greek Church" because Greek was the first language of the ancient Christian Church from which our Faith was transmitted. The New Testament was written in Greek and the early writings of Christ's followers were in the Greek language. The word "Greek" is not used to describe just the Orthodox Christian peoples of Greece and other Greek speaking people. Rather, it is used to describe the Christians who originated from the Greek speaking early Christian Church and which used Greek thought to find appropriate expressions of the Orthodox Faith.  "Orthodox" is also used to describe our Church. The word "Orthodox" is derived from two short Greek words, orthos, meaning correct, and doxa, meaning belief or glory. Thus, we used the word "Orthodox'' to indicate our conviction that we believe and worship God correctly. We emphasize Apostolic tradition, continuity and conservatism over a 2,000 year history....

....Before the establishment of an Archdiocese in the Western Hemisphere there were numerous communities of Greek Orthodox Christians. The first Greek Orthodox community in the Americas was founded in 1864 in New Orleans, LA by a small colony of Greek merchants. History also records that on June 26, 1768 the first Greek colonists landed at St.Augustine, FL, the oldest city in America. Today, the "Avero House" where these colonists worshipped has been fully restored and houses the St. Photios National Shrine, dedicated to all our ancestors who came to these shores as immigrants. It was not until just before the turn of the century that the first permanent community was founded in New York City in 1892, today's Archdiocesan Cathedral of the Holy Trinity and See of the Archbishop of America.

The establishment of Greek Orthodoxy in America began in the beginning of this century, coinciding with the acceleration of immigration from Greece.The pioneering of Greek Orthodoxy in America continued at an intensified rate throughout the first decades of the 20th Century,and by 1920 sixty percent of the present-day communities and their houses of worship were firmly founded.

The first Greek Orthodox parishes in North America were under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople which had over the centuries assumed responsibility for the diaspora communities and assigned to them their priests. In 1908, however, this jurisdiction was temporarily transferred to the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece. This arrangement was maintained until 1918, and during this period the communities remained without the necessary organization and without a responsible and authorized religious leader they so greatly needed.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8086

And then, of course, our dear Chief Secretary:
Quote
The same change can be of course observed in the case of Orthodoxy, whose appearance and development in America was influenced by certain indeterminable factors.

            The first and main challenge that American Orthodoxy faces is that it has been developed in a region which, from an administrative and technical point, is that of diaspora. By the term “diaspora” we indicate that region  whose ecclesiastical jurisdiction is been unfortunately claimed by a variety of “Mother” Churches, which wish to maintain their pastoral care over their respective flocks, comprised by the people who, over the years, immigrated to the superpower called USA.

            In this way, the Orthodox faithful in America became organized according to their national origin and not according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church—that is, they organized themselves not in accordance with the principles of Orthodox ecclesiology which dictates that neither national origin, nor the history of a group’s appearance in a particular region but rather the canonical taxis and the perennial praxis of the Church, as codified by the Ecumenical Councils, has the ultimate authority.

            According to such ecclesiological principles, in any given region there can be one and only one bishop who shepherds the Orthodox faithful, regardless of any nationalistic distinction. It was, however, the very opposite scenario that took place in America and today one observes the challenging deplorable condition where a number of bishops claim pastoral responsibility for the same geographic region.

The Holy Archdiocese of America under the Ecumenical Patriarchate is the most organized, well-structured and successful presence of Orthodoxy today. This is not accidental. This success was not achieved by foregoing its cultural identity. It was not achieved by ignoring the sacred canons and the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. It was not achieved by succumbing to the temptation of secularism. It was not achieved by imprisoning itself in the darkness of the extreme fundamentalism, nationalism and sterile denial.

            Precisely because the Holy Archdiocese of America occupies such an esteemed position in this country we are obliged to offer a self-criticism but also to defend ourselves against the unjust accusations that target this jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

First of all, allow me to remind you that the term “diaspora” is a technical term denoting those regions that lie beyond the borders of the local autocephalous Churches. It does not mean that the Orthodox people who dwell in these regions live there temporally, as misleadingly it was argued by His Eminence Phillip in a recent article (“The Word”). According to the 28th Canon of the 4th Ecumenical Council one of the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch is precisely His jurisdiction exactly over these regions, which lie beyond the predescribed borders of the local Churches. The canon in question uses the technical term “barbaric” in order to denote these lands, since it was precisely referring to the unknown lands beyond the orbit of the Roman Empire.

            On account of this canon, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has suffered the unfair and unjust criticism of two American Orthodox Hierarchs: Metropolitan Phillip and the newly elected Metropolitan Jonas.

            It is my duty to refute the injustice directed against the Mother Church of Constantinople for the sake of historical truth and for the sake of moral conscience.

Metropolitan Jonas, while he was still an abbot, in one of his speeches presented what he called “a monastic perspective” on the subject “Episcopacy, Primacy and the Mother Churches”. In the chapter on autocephaly and primacy he claims that “there is no effective overarching primacy in the Orthodox Church.” He seems to be in opposition to the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, because he considers that such an institution “is based on primacy over an empire-wide synod” and that this “has long become unrealistic.” What surprised me the most in this “monastic perspective” of His Eminence Jonas was the claim that allegedly “now only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate to be what it claims to be.” It is indeed saddening the ignorance of this Hierarch not only on account of History and canonical order but even on account of the current state of affairs. How is it possible that he ignores that there is no Church that does not recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate? Perhaps he is carried away by the fact that the ecclesial schema over which he presides and which has been claimed as “autocephalous” in rampant violation of every sense of canonicity, is not recognized but by few Churches and it is not included in the diptychs of the Church.

Let me add that the refusal to recognize primacy within the Orthodox Church, a primacy that necessarily cannot but be embodied by a primus (that is by a bishop who has the prerogative of being the first among his fellow bishops) constitutes nothing less than heresy. It cannot be accepted, as often it is said, that the unity among the Orthodox Churches is safeguarded by either a common norm of faith and worship or by the Ecumenical Council as an institution. Both of these factors are impersonal while in our Orthodox theology the principle of unity is always a person. Indeed, in the level of the Holy Trinity the principle of unity is not the divine essence but the Person of the Father (“Monarchy” of the Father), at the ecclesiological level of the local Church the principle of unity is not the presbyterium or the common worship of the Christians but the person of the Bishop, so to [sic] in the Pan-Orthodox level the principle of unity cannot be an idea nor an institution but it needs to be, if we are to be consistent with our theology, a person.

Based on the above distinction, and although he accepts that canon 28 of the 4th Ecumenical Council is not “dead” (since there is so much debate about it), he affirms that indeed it gives certain prerogatives to the Ecumenical Patriarch, on the other hand, however, he claims that this happened for secular and political reasons that have nothing to do with today’s state of affairs. Implicitly and yet all too clearly, Metropolitan Phillip implies that the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch can be doubted. The question then is: does His Eminence know of any Church whose status (Patriarchal or Autocephalous) were not decided according to the historical conditions that they were current at the time? Or, does His Eminence know of any Church that has received its status on the basis of theological reasons exclusively? Every administrative decision of an Ecumenical Council is equally respected to perpetuity together with its dogmatic decisions. Imagine the consequences for the Orthodox Church if we begin to re-evalutate the status of each local Church!

            The correct interpretation of canon 28 is considered by His Eminence as “novelty”, by invoking only sources of the 20th century, while it has been scientifically established already by the late Metropolitan of Sardeis Maximos the uninterrupted application of the canon in question during the history of the Church of Constantinople.

The question, my brothers and sisters, is rather simple:

            If Constantinople was not given that prerogative by canon 28, how was she able to grant autocephalies and patriarchal dignities to the Churches of Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Czech Lands and Slovakia, Poland and Albania? Under the provision of which canon did Constantinople give the right of jurisdiction over the remaining of Africa to the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 2002?

3.   The submission of the diaspora to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean either Hellenization or violation of the canonical order, because it is only in this way that both the letter and the spirit of the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils is respected. The Mother Church knows, however, that such a submission is difficult to be accomplished under the present historical conditions. For this reason, and by employing the principle of economy, it was suggested and it has now become accepted in Pan-Orthodox level, that there will be local Pan-Orthodox Episcopal Assemblies in the diaspora (like SCOBA in the US). The principle of presidency is followed, namely the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate presides over these Episcopal Assemblies in order to preserve the necessary element of canonicity.

4.   With regards to the United States, the submission to the First Throne of the Church, that is, to the Ecumenical Patriarchate is not only fitting with the American society and mentality but also it opens up the horizons of possibilities for this much-promising region, which is capable of becoming an example of Pan-Orthodox unity and witness.

The Mother Church of Constantinople safeguards for the Orthodox Church in America those provisions that are needed for further  progress and maturity in Christ.

  

Please allow me to conclude with the phrase of His Beatitude Ignatios Patriarch of Antioch during last October’s Synaxis of the Primates at the Phanar: “In the Orthodox Church we have one primus and he is the Patriarch of Constantinople.”


Reported on OrthodoxNews

Holy Cross Seminary has been in an uproar for the last few days. Below is a link to a speech given there on Monday:

Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
by Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis
Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod

Just scroll past the Greek and you will see the speech.
http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83



Although the magic date of 1924 doesn't appear, his beatitude's expression is more concise than going over 1768, 1864, 1892, 1908, 1918 (when Meletios first came, the first Greek bishop in North America) etc.

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There are many other things that I saw as "back and forth" contradicting himself, etc.  I plan on listening to the whole thing again and writing it all out. 
Looking forward.
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« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2009, 10:21:58 AM »

Better than the circular firing squad Irish Hermit was apparently trying to round up.

If only!  Grin   During the course of this Fast the poor American Orthodox have had three major rockets fired at them.  That must be awfully unsettling for the Church in America.   This nobody Irish Hermit offers his prayers.

Not rockets, Father, just flares.  We are free to ignore them and continue with our prayer, or we can fixate on them and neglect what is truly needed now.
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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2009, 10:27:20 AM »


Not rockets, Father, just flares.  We are free to ignore them and continue with our prayer,

One hopes the prayers ar even more strong at this time of the year.

Ignoring these things, in particular the speech by the Secretary of the Sacred Synod and the Vespers homily by Metropolitan Jonah, may be an act of disobedience to the hierarchs.   Obviously both men want their message to get out to the faithful.
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2009, 10:31:03 AM »

I'm only against being ruled by a power in a foreign country. I'm not against the country or the people itself. I recognize that we all have our own rich cultures and ethnicities. However, I also recognize that America is a union of all of them, and is a celebration of all of them while recognizing that in America, we are all one, and ruled by a (well, it's supposed to be) President that represents us all.
We are NOT ruled by any foreign leader that lives thousands of miles away in a country and culture vastly different from ours who doesn't understand the fundamentals and the essence of being American.

Why did America fight for it's independence in the first place? Because the British King was trying to impose his will upon the colonists here in America. They didn't want to be ruled by a guy that was several thousand miles away across an ocean. They had to fight long and hard for our independence, but they got it, an eventally, all peoples of America... Whether you were from Spain, Britain, France, Netherlands etc... eventually they all became American with independence and ruled by Congress and the President in Washington. With immigrants and natural borns, we all recognize that we are united as Americans. That is what our soldiers die for. That is what our citizens live for... That is the very core of being American... We gained our independence from these other countries, and (at least in the opinion of many) god-forbid if we are going to be ruled by them again.

But also... Remember, that although we fought for our independence over 200 years ago... We also fought to keep ourselves UNITED during our horrible Civil War... Both self rule and unity mean a lot to us... This goes for the Church to... It would be wonderful to be autocephalous, but we will also fight to stay unified with the whole Orthodox world.

Although I be willing to fight to stay self-ruled... I would have to confess that I would be willing to die for Christ and his whole Church. (not just the OCA)

This kind of phyletism is precisely what has caused such havoc all across the Orthodox world. The Church is beyond ethnicities and nation states.

I can understand the worries people might have about Hellenic, Slavic or Arab nationalism. It is a real problem. But to replace it with American, British, etc. nationalism is worse, not better.
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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2009, 10:49:14 AM »

HELP!  THE CHURCH BOAT IS SINKING!   
Please stop the entire "uncannonical church debate".   The secular humanists, pagans, and the spiritually lazy are dramatically
changing the USA. In the NE region of the USA, we are watching our beautiful Orthodox churches/cathedrals close at an alarming
rate while members are having the "uncannonical" debate.  We must combining the ethnic jurisdictions in the USA to preserve our ability to
find an OPEN Orthodox church where we can worship!  We MUST look at this situation as SURVIVAL!  Has anyone else counted the many
duplicated departments of our uncombined ethnic jurisdictions?  Let's combine resources and stay afloat!   
PRAY ABOUT KEEPING ORTHODOX CHURCHES OPEN!
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2009, 10:50:10 AM »

I'm posting not as an argument atm, but simply as an explanation of where I come from...

I feel like because of the VAST differences between America and Europe, that it would be really hard for a European person to be able to relate to us and make good informed decisions about us. (and vice versa) Especially when that European person is under house arrest in an Islamic country.

My fears:
I fear that some want to Hellenize us, or make us more of a Byzantine/Greek culture.
I fear that the EP is doing this for monetary/political influence or gain.
I fear that if we go under the EP, that we will simply remain another "denomination" in America, and that we will have no real voice to raise.
I fear that it will seem to Americans that when the EP speaks, it's like the Pope speaking, and no one but Orthodox listen to him. If we had our own spiritual leader that can stand up and shout where we stand, I feel like it would be more likely for people here to listen.
I fear that the EP would be inaccessible to us and wouldn't be very active in the Orthodox Church as it exists in America.
I fear that the various other Orthodox traditions here would feel alienated because they would be forced to adopt traditions that aren't theirs.
I fear a loss of Slavic and Western Rite traditions in favor of Byzantine traditions (because all are wonderful and rich, not one should dominate) because we would suddenly be under the EP.
I fear that we would be associated too much with the Roman Catholic Church as the relations between the EP and the Pope continue to go on. (absolutely no RC-EO unity unless the RC reject everything that is unOrthodox)
I fear that we would become too foreign and too ethnic. Americans won't join a foreign or ethnic church.
I fear that ethnic emphasis will be encouraged and churches will become or remain as ethnically based as they are. (NO Ethnic Churches should exist)
I fear that we won't be able to combat the negative aspects of American culture as well as we would be able to with leaders that are not just cradles, but also converts, and those that have lived in the United States for most of their lives.
I fear that if a financial scandle or other heretical controversy occurs in the leadership, that the American Orthodox would lack the ability to stand up and say no, and be able to revolt/stand up against those who heretically misrepresent the Holy Church.
I fear that the churches of North America will cease to receive monetary support in the amount that they could receive with autocephaly, especially since we live in a country where there is no state religion and no monetary support from the gov't.

Those are simply my fears, and are not an argument against the EP, or even for it. I simply want to show WHY I feel as I do, and why I fear the OCA losing Autocephaly.

Are some of those fears valid? Or am I completely missing the mark? Are they accurate/innacurate? Am I simply misunderstanding the EP and the whole situation?
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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2009, 11:15:21 AM »



You forget, as someone posted a while ago, Met. Jonah was given words of encouragement from the big enchilada himself, Pat. Kyrill.
His Holiness Patriarch Kirill refers to the "demons of feeble impertinence" - taken to be an understated and oblique reference to the speech at Holy Cross of the Chief Secretary of the Sacred Synod.

I didn't forget anything.  I just hadn't read it.  Also, my first question is "who is taking it to be an understated and oblique reference to the speech"?  Are you making that inference?  Is Fr. Ambrose?  I'd be interested in knowing how we can infer such things without speaking to the Patriarch (Kyril) directly. 
Father has already answered this.  I'll just add that I have had it interpreted to me the same way from other sources.

They could say these things and very easily b/c now he has put them in a corner.  It's us vs. them.  Not what I would say is a good move by an "orthodox" hierarch.  He himself made excuses for himself, saying that he had never been in this position before.  Then how can you sit up there and pontificate.
Because someone else thinks he is supreme pontiff, and it's not the hierarch in Old Rome (we know him).  As Met. Jonah said, if we wanted Ultramontanism, we should take it straight (paraphrased).

Care to substantiate that?  When has Patriarch Bartholomew said that he is the supreme pontif?

Look at the statements above by his Chief Secretary, repeating the references to "protos," "famous 28th canon," and "First Throne" that we are all familiar with.

He said that we don't have a pope and we don't need a pope under islamic rule...well...how about one from american liberalist democracy? 

Oh, please.  Been to Athens lately?  The GOA owes its existence to Bp. Arbp. EP Pope Meletius acting as chaplain for "liberal democracy."

I've actually lived in athens.  How much time have you spent there?

About a couple weeks, I usually get out as soon as possible.  Just so much pornography, socialists, secular progressives and neo-paganism I can take.  I prefer Thessalonika.

Quote
I wouldn't call him a pope unless that was his actual title.  Otherwise that's just plain old slander.


Walks like a duck.....

Likes Pope St. Gregory's uproar over the title "Ecumenical Patriarch."  Btw, EP Bartheomew has stated several times with the battle with the Turks that the title EP is of ecclesiastical/religious origin.  It's not.  Ecumenical was the Emperor's term for "imperial."

Quote
And in terms of him being a chaplain of liberal democracy...well if you don't like it when he did it (which i'm not saying is true,

It is quite true: Bishop Meletios had been expelled from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and became Archbishop of Athens to support his uncle, Venizelos and his agenda.  When Venizelos was expelled from Greece, Arch Meletios fled to the U.S., where he continued the support for Venizelos:

Quote
Let us tell you a little bit about the history of the Annunciation Cathedral community. St. Sophia, precursor to the Annunciation Cathedral, came into being June 1921, when the parishioners of the Holy Trinity Church, sympathetic to Greek Prime Minister Eleftherios Venizelos, established a second Greek Orthodox community in San Francisco. Land was acquired at Hayes and Pierce streets, all of the lots facing Pierce street from Hayes to Fell streets, for the purpose of building a Cathedral and an adjoining school and orphanage. Ground was broken June 1921, with a ceremony where His Eminence Metropolitan Meletios Metaxakis, Archbishop of Athens, laid the cornerstone of the cathedral.
http://www.annunciation.org/history.html

At that time, SF had a cathedral founded over six decades earlier, which had served as the Primate's See for North America for three decades.

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but for the sake of the argument), then you'll hate it when Met. Jonah does it.  Doesn't seem like that's happening... Wink

The main thrust of the Metropolitan's speech stems from the canonical order the Russians established in North America, and its progress.  And that it was NOT founded in "diaspora,"  did NOT develop in "diaspora," and was groomed for autocephaly NOT in "diaspora."


Quote
Anyway...maybe it's not the right time for this.

That's like saying it's not the time to have a kid when he is already born.


Quote
Did he think of that?  Did he just go out there and do what he wanted?

He was attacted by name and quote in the context of a speech that referenced the EP's convening of that great council, which the EP seems to expect to act as his rubber stamp, to decided the fate of the "Diaspora."  Spin of such speech tried to make the exclusion of the OCA, whose canonical territory in on the chopping block, as a "concession" by the EP.

 

 
A lot of questions my friend...a lot of questions. 

All answered: the Orthodox Church in America is a FACT.

And the orthodox church in america can do nothing by itself, as is proven by this rash and brazen speech which burns bridges with those who brought orthodoxy to america in the first place.

To quote his beatitude, "excuse me?"

Met. Jonah stands in the direct line of those who brought Orthodoxy to America as their successor.  Not EP Bartholomew.

Quote
If this is what the Orthodox Church in America wants as its MO

You mean canonical Orthodoxy in North America?  You bet.

Quote
...I certianly hope all the other churches break communion.


As Met. Jonah pointed out, only "only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate['s....] claims."

That would be unfortunate.  The EP tried that when Autocephaly was given.  Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory refused to enforce it.  As we all know, the EP made sure that wouldn't be repeated.

Quote
What do you think this will accomplish?


I don't know.  You are the one suggesting it.

Quote
Wasn't Met. Jonah going to be the great healer?  This is not healing, this is pouring salt on the wound.  


No, it is balm for the bites of the Chief Secretary.
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« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2009, 11:21:40 AM »


Not rockets, Father, just flares.  We are free to ignore them and continue with our prayer,

One hopes the prayers ar even more strong at this time of the year.

Ignoring these things, in particular the speech by the Secretary of the Sacred Synod and the Vespers homily by Metropolitan Jonah, may be an act of disobedience to the hierarchs.   Obviously both men want their message to get out to the faithful.

Not only that, but since Antioch has decided to have its talk during bright week and the EP his on the heels of Pentacost, the clock is ticking.

Some would like us to look the other way as deals are struck....
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« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2009, 11:26:29 AM »

I don't post much on this forum...just read mostly. But I must admit I find some of the more negative reactions to Metropolitan Jonah's remarks both intriguing and puzzling.  To me it was an iconic moment like the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima.  A battle has been raging, but suddenly a sign of determination and hope heaved up for all to see.

My reaction, and the reaction of OCA members and clergy that I know have been very enthusiastic.  This is what that sermon meant to me. For many years long before I even knew about Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church in American, regardless of jurisidiction has had troubles, overseas manipulations, the chaos that arose in the aftermath of communism, and apparently in the OCA weak/corrupt leadership from her leading heirarchs.  And given those troubles and this history the OCA has not gotten the recognition or respect from other Orthodox bodies that otherwise likely would have been given sooner or later.  The OCA was struggling, and in some was still is, but now we struggle with hope. There's light at the end of tunnel, and we can take courage to build and to grow. God took pity on us and gave us a new Metropolitan who was not willing to play footsy with corruption and fiscal irresponsibility, and who for once was willing to speak plainly, directly without a gordian knot of byzantine circumlocutions and verbal slight of hand. Frankly, it is a trait to which Americans...at least this American responds well.

So we have our Metropolitan whom we regard quite literally in pretty much every sense of the word as a God send, the Holy Spirit's unequivocably clear choice for us as our leader out of this past morrase. Then comes all the recent trouble in the Antiochian Archdiocese, and many many OCA and AOCA parishes and priests have very close friendships and seeing the pain and confusion they are suffering now because of recent decisions here and abroad arouse our sympathies, remind us of our own recent difficulties from which we are just now trying to emerge. On top of that the Ecumenical Patriarch sends a representative who seems intent on insulting our Jurisdiction, our Metropolitian, the work of Elder Ephraim who is himself Greek, converts, the Antiochian work here, and a with them a huge part, the liveliest part of American Orthodoxy and enough was enough. The Metropolitan of the OCA stood up for us, not just the OCA, but for all Orthodox in America and said "Enough!" to all those in the Old World who think they can still play the same old games with the faithful here.

Nor do I think he stands alone. As noted, Metropolitan Kyrill has given Metropolitan Jonah encouragement, and I would suspect some counsel as well  in how to deal with challenges being made by Constantinople. There was just something in the tone of the sermon in light of Metropolitan's Jonah's relationship with Valaam and with the spiritual father of his own spiritual father Meteropolitan Kyrill that suggests when he told Old World leaders to leave the American Church alone he wasn't speaking about the MP. Indeed I rather think Metropolitan Kyrill is his ally in this. I certainly hope so.

Perhaps, his sermon could have been a little less blunt...but I'm not sad that it wasn't. It spoke directly to all the pain, all the frustrations that so many North American Orthodox have known, some more pointedly so in recent weeks, and it spoke with hope and determination in the midst of that pain and frustration felt by those in and outside the OCA.

To put it in school yard terms he comes across like the kid who steps up out of nowhere to stand between a bully and his victim. Maybe other see the current situation differently, respond to it differently, but that's them.

As for me...and pardon me if I speak a little Greek, the word that keeps tumbling about in my heart with respect to Metropolitan Jonah is Axios, Axios, Axios.

May all the Saints of North American, pray for us and for our hierarchs, people, and monastics that our irregularities, divisions, and sorrows may be healed. And may it please God that our parishes, monasteries, clergy, and their witness flourish and shine like a city set on a hill.

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« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2009, 11:38:55 AM »

Quote
fear a loss of Slavic and Western Rite traditions in favor of Byzantine traditions (because all are wonderful and rich, not one should dominate) because we would suddenly be under the EP.

The Slavic churches in this country under the care of the EP have had their traditions protected, ironically as it so happens from the Metropolia/OCA.  I feel like my diocese has been incredibly fiscally responsible and open, again ironically unlike the OCA.

I'm glad Metropolitan Jonah has woken up to the problem of uncanonical situations, foreign domination and the need for local language.  Hopefully that is a message he will take back to Moscow vis-a-vis Ukraine.
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« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2009, 11:41:56 AM »

AMM, the Metropolia is dead...
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« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2009, 11:47:43 AM »

Yes, the comments reflect what was the Metropolia that later became the OCA.  Constantinople protected us from what would have happened through absorption in to it.  Whether that would have been Russification, the calender or the recent financial issues.

Thank God for the protection of Constantinople.  That is something we pray about.
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« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2009, 11:49:53 AM »

Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...
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« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2009, 12:21:02 PM »

I don't post much on this forum...just read mostly. But I must admit I find some of the more negative reactions to Metropolitan Jonah's remarks both intriguing and puzzling.  To me it was an iconic moment like the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima.  

Raised by an CarpathoRussian American, btw:Michael Strank


Quote
A battle has been raging, but suddenly a sign of determination and hope heaved up for all to see.

My reaction, and the reaction of OCA members and clergy that I know have been very enthusiastic.  This is what that sermon meant to me. For many years long before I even knew about Orthodoxy the Orthodox Church in American, regardless of jurisidiction has had troubles, overseas manipulations, the chaos that arose in the aftermath of communism, and apparently in the OCA weak/corrupt leadership from her leading heirarchs.  And given those troubles and this history the OCA has not gotten the recognition or respect from other Orthodox bodies that otherwise likely would have been given sooner or later.  The OCA was struggling, and in some was still is, but now we struggle with hope. There's light at the end of tunnel, and we can take courage to build and to grow. God took pity on us and gave us a new Metropolitan who was not willing to play footsy with corruption and fiscal irresponsibility, and who for once was willing to speak plainly, directly without a gordian knot of byzantine circumlocutions and verbal slight of hand. Frankly, it is a trait to which Americans...at least this American responds well.

Yes, there is a new kid in town.  A worthy successor to SS. Met. Innoncent and Pat. Tikhon of Moscow on North America's throne. Axios!

As was told to St. Tikhon, on arrival to America, can be said to his worthy successor Met. Jonah:
Quote
You have now put your episcopal hand on the rudder ... O Master! There are many wild branches in the vineyard which the Lord has made your lot: childish whims and the stubborness of human hearts -- and the whims of children who lack their father's kindness ... Fatithlessness preys on the people's hearts here; our brothers, secluded by the heterodox milieu and oppressed by need, have fallen here, members of the holy Church. The Uniate hosts are blinded and scorn truth and veracity; for them, Orthodoxy is hateful! ... And in Alaska, there are the fervent tears of the unfairly-treated Orthodox sons of our Church! ... A difficult and sorrowful path, but is it not with such that the battle you will get your satisfaction? The Lord, who cares for all will not leave your zeal, love, cares in vain, but will allow us to see the moment when your flock will, in retun, for the care you show it, call your name blessed. Then the Lord who cares for all will accept their prayers, and, in return for the moments and spiritual difficulties and physical ills, will crown you with a heavenly reward ... where the labors are great, the crown is great too! May the Lord give you strength in this new apostolic labor!
http://www.antiochian.org/Bishops/tikhon.htm

To paraphrase Pres. Ford, our long ecclesiastical nightmare is over.

Quote
So we have our Metropolitan whom we regard quite literally in pretty much every sense of the word as a God send, the Holy Spirit's unequivocably clear choice for us as our leader out of this past morrase. Then comes all the recent trouble in the Antiochian Archdiocese, and many many OCA and AOCA parishes and priests have very close friendships and seeing the pain and confusion they are suffering now because of recent decisions here and abroad arouse our sympathies, remind us of our own recent difficulties from which we are just now trying to emerge. On top of that the Ecumenical Patriarch sends a representative who seems intent on insulting our Jurisdiction, our Metropolitian, the work of Elder Ephraim who is himself Greek, converts, the Antiochian work here, and a with them a huge part, the liveliest part of American Orthodoxy and enough was enough. The Metropolitan of the OCA stood up for us, not just the OCA, but for all Orthodox in America and said "Enough!" to all those in the Old World who think they can still play the same old games with the faithful here.


Apt summary.

Quote
Nor do I think he stands alone. As noted, Metropolitan Kyrill has given Metropolitan Jonah encouragement, and I would suspect some counsel as well  in how to deal with challenges being made by Constantinople. There was just something in the tone of the sermon in light of Metropolitan's Jonah's relationship with Valaam and with the spiritual father of his own spiritual father Meteropolitan Kyrill that suggests when he told Old World leaders to leave the American Church alone he wasn't speaking about the MP. Indeed I rather think Metropolitan Kyrill is his ally in this. I certainly hope so.

Perhaps, his sermon could have been a little less blunt...but I'm not sad that it wasn't. It spoke directly to all the pain, all the frustrations that so many North American Orthodox have known, some more pointedly so in recent weeks, and it spoke with hope and determination in the midst of that pain and frustration felt by those in and outside the OCA.


Ligonier is not dead.

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To put it in school yard terms he comes across like the kid who steps up out of nowhere to stand between a bully and his victim. Maybe other see the current situation differently, respond to it differently, but that's them.

As for me...and pardon me if I speak a little Greek, the word that keeps tumbling about in my heart with respect to Metropolitan Jonah is Axios, Axios, Axios.

May all the Saints of North American, pray for us and for our hierarchs, people, and monastics that our irregularities, divisions, and sorrows may be healed. And may it please God that our parishes, monasteries, clergy, and their witness flourish and shine like a city set on a hill.

How Reaganesque.
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« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2009, 12:39:12 PM »

Yes, the comments reflect what was the Metropolia that later became the OCA.  Constantinople protected us from what would have happened through absorption in to it.  Whether that would have been Russification, the calender or the recent financial issues.

Thank God for the protection of Constantinople.  That is something we pray about.

Let no one be deceived: if ACROD wasn't the stick in the eye of the Metropolia, the Slavs would have been Hellenized and put on the New Calendar, just as the EP did with the Slavs in Northern Greece.

And we aren't suggesting that GOA hasn't had financial issues, are we? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2009, 12:39:23 PM »

OK, after reading this thread I need something clarified.  I have always had trouble understanding all of the conflict over this issue, because I assumed that even if all the jurisdictions did unite under the Oecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, then at some point after the churches became fully integrated he and the rest of the Orthodox Churches would grant us our own autocephany.

Is this not the case?  Does his all holiness wish to consolidate us beneath his wing, and then keep us there forever; permanently?  So the Orthodox churches of America would always commemorate his all holiness without hope of having their own Patriarch someday?

If this is the case, I can see why this is so controversial.  If his all holiness intends to permanently be the presiding Patriarch of all the world outside of the old world jurisdictions, well I do not even know what to make of that...
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« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2009, 12:44:21 PM »

OK, after reading this thread I need something clarified.  I have always had trouble understanding all of the conflict over this issue, because I assumed that even if all the jurisdictions did unite under the Oecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, then at some point after the churches became fully integrated he and the rest of the Orthodox Churches would grant us our own autocephany.

This has been the pattern.

Is this not the case?  Does his all holiness wish to consolidate us beneath his wing, and then keep us there forever; permanently?  So the Orthodox churches of America would always commemorate his all holiness without hope of having their own Patriarch someday?

There is no foundation to this fear. If it were to happen as people fear, though, would that make us any less Christ's church?

If this is the case, I can see why this is so controversial.  If his all holiness intends to permanently be the presiding Patriarch of all the world outside of the old world jurisdictions, well I do not even know what to make of that...

This is what gets us into trouble: baseless speculation.
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« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2009, 12:45:06 PM »

OK, after reading this thread I need something clarified.  I have always had trouble understanding all of the conflict over this issue, because I assumed that even if all the jurisdictions did unite under the Oecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, then at some point after the churches became fully integrated he and the rest of the Orthodox Churches would grant us our own autocephany.

Is this not the case?  Does his all holiness wish to consolidate us beneath his wing, and then keep us there forever; permanently?  So the Orthodox churches of America would always commemorate his all holiness without hope of having their own Patriarch someday?

If this is the case, I can see why this is so controversial.  If his all holiness intends to permanently be the presiding Patriarch of all the world outside of the old world jurisdictions, well I do not even know what to make of that...

Yes, you do:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Emblem_of_the_Papacy_SE.svg/180px-Emblem_of_the_Papacy_SE.svg.png
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« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2009, 12:47:02 PM »

Yes, you do:

Sometimes you make great posts.  Sometimes you go trolling.  You should let us know which Isa we're going to experience at the beginning of the day, by PM or something, so we know whether or not we should read 'em.
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« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2009, 12:57:42 PM »

OK, after reading this thread I need something clarified.  I have always had trouble understanding all of the conflict over this issue, because I assumed that even if all the jurisdictions did unite under the Oecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, then at some point after the churches became fully integrated he and the rest of the Orthodox Churches would grant us our own autocephany.

This has been the pattern.

Actually, no.  The pattern has been events necessitate autocephaly, it is proclaimed, and the EP gets around eventually, kicking and screaming, to recognize it.

Is this not the case?  Does his all holiness wish to consolidate us beneath his wing, and then keep us there forever; permanently?  So the Orthodox churches of America would always commemorate his all holiness without hope of having their own Patriarch someday?

There is no foundation to this fear.
Oh?

http://www.spyridon.org/

There isn't a hint of autocephaly in the Chief Secretary's speech.  Ever.

Quote
If it were to happen as people fear, though, would that make us any less Christ's church?

Since it would make us imitation Ultramontanists, yes.

If this is the case, I can see why this is so controversial.  If his all holiness intends to permanently be the presiding Patriarch of all the world outside of the old world jurisdictions, well I do not even know what to make of that...

Quote
This is what gets us into trouble: baseless speculation.
Ligonier, '94
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligonier_Meeting
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« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2009, 01:09:44 PM »

Actually, no.  The pattern has been events necessitate autocephaly, it is proclaimed, and the EP gets around eventually, kicking and screaming, to recognize it.

Uh-huh.. kicking and screaming... in a constructed fantasy-world.


Non-sequitur, unless you've got some beef to add to that diet-argument.

There isn't a hint of autocephaly in the Chief Secretary's speech.  Ever.

It wasn't the subject of the speech.

Since it would make us imitation Ultramontanists, yes.

Trolling doesn't become you.  You're much better than that.


Oh, yeah, because we were so mature in 1994 that if he hadn't objected things would have been fine... Forget that the OCA was at the time still on its first of 2 consecutive corrupt Metropolitans, and Metropolitan PHILIP, despite the rhetoric, has apparently shown a desire to consolidate power, which would have still been present in an American Church in which he would have been the second senior hierarch (after +IAKOVOS).  In hindsight, the delay in implementing Ligionier has been a God-sent blessing.
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« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2009, 01:11:40 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...
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« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2009, 01:12:42 PM »

The Russian Orthodox Church has over 190 MILLION members. How many members do all the other jurisdictions have that do not support the OCA? All the jurisdictions that do not support us amount to about 5 million members. Unless you include Serbia and others into that non-supportive group, then it would be about 35 million.

Still though, 190 million vs. 35 million. That is 84% of Orthodox Christians in the world.

Of course, we cannot say that 100% of the Russian Orthodox Christians support the OCA, but still, the amount of support from the Russian Orthodox Church probably does not go as low as only 60% (which if you removed 40% of support from Russian Orthodox Church, support would be split 50/50 in the Orthodox world)


The majority of communicants commemorate through their hiearchs Met. Jonah as autocephalous.

You two do realize that the Church is not a democracy, that she is therefore not governed by majority rule?  So you two seem to think that just because the "majority" of the Orthodox world recognizes our autocephaly, the churches that don't are wrong?  Sorry, bubs, but it just doesn't work that way.  Yes, I'm disappointed that a large number of the ancient patriarchates don't recognize the autocephaly of my church, but their refusal to recognize us is a serious issue that needs to be respected and resolved canonically.  Maybe these ancient patriarchates are right, and we need to take their concerns seriously.
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« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2009, 01:14:40 PM »

Better than the circular firing squad Irish Hermit was apparently trying to round up.

If only!  Grin   During the course of this Fast the poor American Orthodox have had three major rockets fired at them.  That must be awfully unsettling for the Church in America.   This nobody Irish Hermit offers his prayers.
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« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2009, 01:21:05 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

Is this a theological presentation, or a pub speech in 1770's Boston?  He could have made a more convincing argument to support his point, but he blew it, and with it, IMO, a bit of his credibility.
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« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2009, 01:23:01 PM »

As it has been already pointed out, all this attack happened as a sermon. Very sad!

It is also very sad and unfortunate that during the recent election, eloquence of Metropolitan Jonah dominated over many years of dedicated service, proven missionary outreach and excellent administrative experience of His Eminence Archbishop Job (Osacky) or, actually any other Hierarch of OCA.

If Archbishop Job were the Metropolitan of OCA now, the process of Orthodox unity in USA would speed up without any controversial issues on its way.
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