Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!  (Read 45564 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #405 on: April 14, 2009, 07:04:20 PM »
Whoa.  The subjugation of the Russian Orthodox Church to the Petrine autocracy is now the model of church governance.  FWIW, Peter the Great drew his ideas from Church - State relations in Western Europe at the time time. 

Who said that?  I think only the CoG follows that, due its "special relationship" with the EP.

The Holy Starets Ambrose is using Peter I's Holy Synod creation as a model of a synod without a primate in this thread.  I simply find it odd to be using a clear aberration and instance of massive state meddling in the affairs of the Church as an example of what ought to be considered normative.     

You may not have grasped what I wrote?   I was most certainly not advocating the Synodal period in Russia as a desirable model.  I was merely pointing out that a period of such church governance existed.

But look at the Church of Greece.  Does it have a Primate?  Who is commemporated instead of any Primate at the Liturgy?  Is it not the Holy Synod?   :o

-oOo-

PS:   I really feel obliged to reject the title of "Holy Staretz Ambrose" and suggest you do not call me such again.  By using the term to mock me you risk mocking those who are true startzi.

However, you may, at least on this forum, address me as "Guru" since that title has been bestowed on me by the Forum's authorities.   :laugh:


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #406 on: April 14, 2009, 07:14:39 PM »
Ozgeorge asked the question, "What Synod exists without a Primate?" which I took to mean that George thinks primacy intrinsic to our conciliar (synodal) ecclesiology.  A synod cannot exist as a synod without a primate.

Irish Hermit posited the example of the Russian synod of the 18th and 19th centuries as an example of such a primate-less synod to show that such is precedented, though not in such a way that such should become normative.

However, I would argue that this Russian synod was not a canonically valid synod (for the sake of this discussion), since it was not a synod of diocesan bishops; rather, this was a synod established by the Tsar according to his own model to assert his rule over the Russian churches.  Thus, such a synod cannot be used as an historical example of a synod without a primate.

You are right.

The official designation, decided by Peter the Great, was the "Spiritual College."

If there was any "Primate" it was the Emperor himself who was the "Supreme Judge of the Spiritual College."    He chose and dismissed its 12 members, and appointed a lay Ober-Prokurator to supervise the Spiritual College (faux Synod) in his stead. 

So, since this was NOT a Synod we have an example of an Orthodox Church being governed for a period of two centuries WITHOUT a Synod and WITHOUT a Primate.

And what adds piquancy to all this is that if you study this 200 years of a Synod-less Church you find that it ran quite nicely.


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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #407 on: April 14, 2009, 07:37:37 PM »
Ozgeorge asked the question, "What Synod exists without a Primate?" which I took to mean that George thinks primacy intrinsic to our conciliar (synodal) ecclesiology.  A synod cannot exist as a synod without a primate.

Irish Hermit posited the example of the Russian synod of the 18th and 19th centuries as an example of such a primate-less synod to show that such is precedented, though not in such a way that such should become normative.

However, I would argue that this Russian synod was not a canonically valid synod (for the sake of this discussion), since it was not a synod of diocesan bishops; rather, this was a synod established by the Tsar according to his own model to assert his rule over the Russian churches.  Thus, such a synod cannot be used as an historical example of a synod without a primate.

You are right.

The official designation, decided by Peter the Great, was the "Spiritual College."

If there was any "Primate" it was the Emperor himself who was the "Supreme Judge of the Spiritual College."    He chose and dismissed its 12 members, and appointed a lay Ober-Prokurator to supervise the Spiritual College (faux Synod) in his stead. 

So, since this was NOT a Synod we have an example of an Orthodox Church being governed for a period of two centuries WITHOUT a Synod and WITHOUT a Primate.

And what adds piquancy to all this is that if you study this 200 years of a Synod-less Church you find that it ran quite nicely.
That depends on how you define "nicely".
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #408 on: April 14, 2009, 07:52:30 PM »
You are right.

The official designation, decided by Peter the Great, was the "Spiritual College."

If there was any "Primate" it was the Emperor himself who was the "Supreme Judge of the Spiritual College."    He chose and dismissed its 12 members, and appointed a lay Ober-Prokurator to supervise the Spiritual College (faux Synod) in his stead. 

So, since this was NOT a Synod we have an example of an Orthodox Church being governed for a period of two centuries WITHOUT a Synod and WITHOUT a Primate.

And what adds piquancy to all this is that if you study this 200 years of a Synod-less Church you find that it ran quite nicely.
That depends on how you define "nicely".

"Nice" is used in British English far too much, I would say.  But I am not sure if you are asking me to define "nicely" in this context and I rather hope that you are not because it would involve creating an overview of the 217 years of Russia's Synodal period and who has time for a major piece of research like that during Holy Week?

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #409 on: April 14, 2009, 08:24:09 PM »
You are right.

The official designation, decided by Peter the Great, was the "Spiritual College."

If there was any "Primate" it was the Emperor himself who was the "Supreme Judge of the Spiritual College."    He chose and dismissed its 12 members, and appointed a lay Ober-Prokurator to supervise the Spiritual College (faux Synod) in his stead. 

So, since this was NOT a Synod we have an example of an Orthodox Church being governed for a period of two centuries WITHOUT a Synod and WITHOUT a Primate.

And what adds piquancy to all this is that if you study this 200 years of a Synod-less Church you find that it ran quite nicely.
That depends on how you define "nicely".

"Nice" is used in British English far too much, I would say.  But I am not sure if you are asking me to define "nicely" in this context and I rather hope that you are not because it would involve creating an overview of the 217 years of Russia's Synodal period and who has time for a major piece of research like that during Holy Week?
I voiced my opinion in the form of a statement, so you should see that I'm actually not asking you to do anything. ;)  But if you really want to, go ahead and knock yourself out.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #410 on: April 14, 2009, 08:40:01 PM »
That depends on how you define "nicely".

"Nice" is used in British English far too much, I would say.  But I am not sure if you are asking me to define "nicely" in this context and I rather hope that you are not because it would involve creating an overview of the 217 years of Russia's Synodal period and who has time for a major piece of research like that during Holy Week?
I voiced my opinion in the form of a statement, so you should see that I'm actually not asking you to do anything. ;) 

Phew, that's a relief.  In my experience people say "It depends on how you define..." and they expect you to respond with your definition.  I am glad that was not your expectation.

God bless you and may the remainder of Holy Week bring its manifold graces.  Happy Resurrection!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 08:40:38 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #411 on: April 14, 2009, 10:06:24 PM »
You may not have grasped what I wrote?   I was most certainly not advocating the Synodal period in Russia as a desirable model.  I was merely pointing out that a period of such church governance existed.

But look at the Church of Greece.  Does it have a Primate?  Who is commemporated instead of any Primate at the Liturgy?  Is it not the Holy Synod?   :o

Last time I was at a Liturgy in Greece the local Bishop was commemorated.  Only the local bishop would commemorate anyone else, but I suspect that the bishops commemorate first the Archbishop of Athens, then the Synod.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #412 on: April 14, 2009, 10:11:25 PM »
Last time I was at a Liturgy in Greece the local Bishop was commemorated.  Only the local bishop would commemorate anyone else, but I suspect that the bishops commemorate first the Archbishop of Athens, then the Synod.
I was in Alexandrupolis for a Heirarchical Liturgy on the Sunday after Pascha in the Metropolis (built by my Uncle) in 2005. The Bishop commemorated the Ecumenical Patriarch.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 10:12:10 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #413 on: April 14, 2009, 10:16:30 PM »
I simply find it odd to be using a clear aberration and instance of massive state meddling in the affairs of the Church as an example of what ought to be considered normative.     
Indeed. It would seem the model for the Church he would like to use is what has been defined by ROCOR in the past as 'Sergianism'- the very reason they split off from him.
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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #414 on: April 14, 2009, 10:17:03 PM »
Last time I was at a Liturgy in Greece the local Bishop was commemorated.  Only the local bishop would commemorate anyone else, but I suspect that the bishops commemorate first the Archbishop of Athens, then the Synod.
I was in Alexandrupolis for a Heirarchical Liturgy on the Sunday after Pascha in the Metropolis (built by my Uncle) in 2005. The Bishop commemorated the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Since it's in the canonical territory of the EP, then that makes sense, as would any commemoration of the EP in Northern Greece or the Dodecanese or Crete.
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Offline AMM

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #415 on: April 14, 2009, 10:23:41 PM »
I simply find it odd to be using a clear aberration and instance of massive state meddling in the affairs of the Church as an example of what ought to be considered normative.     
Indeed. It would seem the model for the Church he would like to use is what has been defined by ROCOR in the past as 'Sergianism'- the very reason they split off from him.

I think that was a little different.  What Peter the Great saw in Western Europe was the state church model of the Lutheran principalities and kingdoms which he wished to replicate in Russia.  You could make arguments that there were benefits; the literacy levels of the clergy were certainly raised during this period, and I think some would argue that the church could focus more on spiritual matters since the state looked after the temporal.  Ultimately it was ruinous though as the church became an organ of the state.  It is the one period I can think of where there was true Caesaropapist ecclesiology.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #416 on: April 14, 2009, 10:25:15 PM »
It is the one period I can think of where there was true Caesaropapist ecclesiology.
Oh, so that is the model Irish Hermit wants us to use.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #417 on: April 14, 2009, 10:28:04 PM »
However, you may, at least on this forum, address me as "Guru" since that title has been bestowed on me by the Forum's authorities.   :laugh:

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #418 on: April 14, 2009, 10:30:06 PM »
It is the one period I can think of where there was true Caesaropapist ecclesiology.
Oh, so that is the model Irish Hermit wants us to use.

I do not think you have grasped what I have written?   I certainly did not say that I wanted the Synodal period of the Russian Church to be used as a model, just as I would not expect the anomalous situation over primacy in the Church of Greece to be adopted as a model.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #419 on: April 14, 2009, 10:32:50 PM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #420 on: April 14, 2009, 10:36:51 PM »
who has time for a major piece of research like that during Holy Week?
Who has time to be arguing and trolling on internet forums during Holy Week?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #421 on: April 14, 2009, 10:38:59 PM »

Since it's in the canonical territory of the EP, then that makes sense, as would any commemoration of the EP in Northern Greece or the Dodecanese or Crete.

I understand that the bishops of the New Territories commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch while also being members of the Synod of the Church of Greece.  Somewhat anomalous but if it works nicely..... well, leave it alone.

I further understand that the Church of Greece has no Primate.  Instead the Holy Synod is commemorated at Divine Services and it functions, in the absence of a Primate, with some sort of primatial role.  Again, an anomalous situation, but if it is working nicely...  Can somebody please confirm or deny this or direct us to reliable references.


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #422 on: April 14, 2009, 10:51:08 PM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.


Yes, Isa mentioned this with respect to the Church of Greece, although I did not understand him fully.

I was in Greece during the time of the Junta, and if I recall correctly, dioceses tended to have two bishops at that time, one from the time of the old regime but these set of bishops was more or less in enforced retirement.  Then then were the new bishops who were accpetable to the Junta and to prevailing Greek politics.  Then when the Junta was ousted many dioceses had new bishops again.  So in some places there was a total of three bishops in one diocese!!!   Politicis and these modern versions of caesaropapism can certainly mess the Church around.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #423 on: April 14, 2009, 10:53:52 PM »
Can someone explain to me what any of this has to do with Metropolitan Jonah's pronouncements and later explanation?
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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #424 on: April 14, 2009, 11:01:35 PM »
Can someone explain to me what any of this has to do with Metropolitan Jonah's pronouncements and later explanation?


The thread took off on a side track with a question from ozgeorge:  "What Synod exists without a Primate?" (Reply 385)  and some of the members have been addressing this question.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #425 on: April 14, 2009, 11:26:06 PM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.


Indeed it does.  But a primate who derives his authority from the synod, not a synod that derives its authority from the primate (a la Vatican).
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #426 on: April 14, 2009, 11:28:50 PM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.


Indeed it does.  But a primate who derives his authority from the synod, not a synod that derives its authority from the primate (a la Vatican).

As I've always understood in my 42 years of Greek Orthodox Christianity. :)
Why else would a Synod be able to depose it's Primate as has happened many times?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #427 on: April 14, 2009, 11:39:42 PM »
Can someone explain to me what any of this has to do with Metropolitan Jonah's pronouncements and later explanation?

I can't open the speech transcript from this computer.  In lieu thereof:

I think his understanding of the future North American synod he has in mind is different than the Patriarchate of Constantinople, First of all, he does not think much of bishops without flocks. Secondly, his point of reference is the diocese, not the Patriarchate. Thirdly, he envisions a much more diverse synod. On the last point, contrast a possible North American synod that is composed of American, Canadian, Arab, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbia, Russian and Ukrainian diocesan bishops to the Holy Synod in Constantinople where most of the members are much more homogeneous.

On a personal note, I really admire your resiliency and Christian charity, and wish you a blessed Holy Week and Pascha. And, in case we do not communicate in the interim, Christ is risen!

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #428 on: April 14, 2009, 11:40:44 PM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.


Indeed it does.  But a primate who derives his authority from the synod, not a synod that derives its authority from the primate (a la Vatican).

As I've always understood in my 42 years of Greek Orthodox Christianity. :)
Why else would a Synod be able to depose it's Primate as has happened many times?

Like Met.s Theodosios and Herman?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #429 on: April 14, 2009, 11:43:05 PM »
Like Met.s Theodosios and Herman?
And Patriarch Irenaeos in 2005.

I can't open the speech transcript from this computer.
This is easier. Just turn the handle:

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #430 on: April 14, 2009, 11:47:26 PM »
Like Met.s Theodosios and Herman?
And Patriarch Irenaeos in 2005.

I can't open the speech transcript from this computer.
This is easier. Just turn the handle:


Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #432 on: April 14, 2009, 11:59:51 PM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.

Indeed it does.  But a primate who derives his authority from the synod, not a synod that derives its authority from the primate (a la Vatican).

Uh, it has to be both (i.e. Primate derives authority from synod, while synod derives authority from Primate), at least according to the Early Church model (you know, Bishops don't do anything without the Metropolitan, and the Metropolitan doesn't do anything without the Bishops).

This is easier. Just turn the handle:


Where have I heard that before? ;)

Of course, your comment is ironic considering your follow-up, which (yet again) brings up an issue (read: dead horse) not related to this particular discussion:
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #433 on: April 15, 2009, 12:03:27 AM »
This is easier. Just turn the handle:


Where have I heard that before? ;)

Now now. Ialmisry is a Righteous Avenger here to knock some sense into us poor deluded fools who know nothing of Orthodoxy. What a Sacred Task for Holy Week! Let it be blessed!
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #434 on: April 15, 2009, 12:30:26 AM »
Isa (May Peace be Upon Him).

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #435 on: April 15, 2009, 12:39:44 AM »
Now, now.  No need for a gang-up.  Let's keep it civil!
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #436 on: April 15, 2009, 02:24:48 AM »
Ialmisry,
Abandon this and come celebrate the Feast of Feasts with us.
If Christ is Risen, nothing else matters, and if Christ is not Risen, nothing else matters.
George
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #437 on: April 15, 2009, 07:27:21 AM »
I guess then we have to accept that Orthodox Ecclesiology requires a Synod to have a Primate like I said earlier, and not having one leads to Ceasaropapism.

Indeed it does.  But a primate who derives his authority from the synod, not a synod that derives its authority from the primate (a la Vatican).

Uh, it has to be both (i.e. Primate derives authority from synod, while synod derives authority from Primate), at least according to the Early Church model (you know, Bishops don't do anything without the Metropolitan, and the Metropolitan doesn't do anything without the Bishops).

It seems the last part is the only one in need of reminding.  Primates have pretty good up to now to remind the bishops they do nothing without him.

Now, now.  No need for a gang-up.  Let's keep it civil!

No problem.  I understand:
Quote
Metropolitan Jonas, while he was still an abbot, in one of his speeches presented what he called “a monastic perspective” on the subject “Episcopacy, Primacy and the Mother Churches”. In the chapter on autocephaly and primacy he claims that “there is no effective overarching primacy in the Orthodox Church.” He seems to be in opposition to the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, because he considers that such an institution “is based on primacy over an empire-wide synod” and that this “has long become unrealistic.” What surprised me the most in this “monastic perspective” of His Eminence Jonas was the claim that allegedly “now only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate to be what it claims to be.”
http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83

Where have I heard that before? ;)

Of course, your comment is ironic considering your follow-up, which (yet again) brings up an issue (read: dead horse) not related to this particular discussion:

Since you bring that thread up:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20504.msg311165/topicseen.html#msg311165

Ialmisry,
Abandon this and come celebrate the Feast of Feasts with us.
If Christ is Risen, nothing else matters, and if Christ is not Risen, nothing else matters.
George
 :)

See the link.  I am hoping for a Resurrection.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #438 on: April 15, 2009, 10:39:13 PM »
Seems to me that some of y'all are indeed ganging up on folks who are persistent in not bending to your views.  Speaking for myself, I do enjoy the information that Father Ambrose and Isa have shared with us. Both of these gentlemen have been most courteous, even when taunted and provoked.

There may be others who don't feel that Isa is beating a dead horse. In any case, why say that to him, setting off a shark feeding frenzy? Just ignore him.  And, let others enjoy the scholarship, erudition, wisdom and logic of this wonder poster. Incidentally, I feel the same way about Father Ambrose as well.

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #439 on: April 16, 2009, 12:12:09 AM »
Somewhere earlier someone mentioned Met. Jonah's sermon as a sort of Monroe Doctrine of American Orthodoxy. I agree. We NEED a Monroe Doctrine. American Orthodoxy is for AMERICANS. Othodoxy has been on this continent since 1794, over 200 years. We don't need to be be baby sat.

Look, none of the old world hierarchs respect America or American Orthodoxy and they never will. Partly because we are in the West and partly because we are in fact Americans and it is easy for people in the OLD World to dismiss us. Every mother Church will attempt to infantilize its American "diaspora" as long as Christ chooses not to return. In their minds (the mother churches) we are still in diapers and they intend to keep us that way.

Just as the effects of domineering parents (especially mothers who don't want to let their sons grow up -- resulting in a sick situation all the way around) the old world hierarchs wanting to keep American Orthodoxy in diapers is unhealthy!

They will always NOT recognize an autocephalas American Othodoxy.

But some day they kid is gonna grow up and there will be no denying its manhood. Attempts to do so will be sick and foolish and will ultimately fail.

I can only hope we are living in that time right now.

Just for the record, I am not implying that the OCA has to be that American Othodox Church or even be the structural basis for it. Realistically, without the Greeks there can be no American Orthodox Church, anyway.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 12:20:24 AM by BrotherAidan »

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #440 on: April 16, 2009, 12:48:43 AM »
Look, none of the old world hierarchs respect America or American Orthodoxy and they never will. Partly because we are in the West and partly because we are in fact Americans and it is easy for people in the OLD World to dismiss us. Every mother Church will attempt to infantilize its American "diaspora" as long as Christ chooses not to return. In their minds (the mother churches) we are still in diapers and they intend to keep us that way.

Just as the effects of domineering parents (especially mothers who don't want to let their sons grow up -- resulting in a sick situation all the way around) the old world hierarchs wanting to keep American Orthodoxy in diapers is unhealthy!

They will always NOT recognize an autocephalas American Othodoxy.

This view is way too negative.  I have a lot more confidence in and appreciation for the "Old World" hierarchs than all of that noise.  Call me ignorant or naive, but I think that everyone has good intentions!  God bless and keep the protectors and bringers of Orthodoxy to the Americas!

Offline John of the North

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #441 on: April 16, 2009, 02:11:49 AM »
Somewhere earlier someone mentioned Met. Jonah's sermon as a sort of Monroe Doctrine of American Orthodoxy. I agree. We NEED a Monroe Doctrine. American Orthodoxy is for AMERICANS. Othodoxy has been on this continent since 1794, over 200 years. We don't need to be be baby sat.

Look, none of the old world hierarchs respect America or American Orthodoxy and they never will. Partly because we are in the West and partly because we are in fact Americans and it is easy for people in the OLD World to dismiss us. Every mother Church will attempt to infantilize its American "diaspora" as long as Christ chooses not to return. In their minds (the mother churches) we are still in diapers and they intend to keep us that way.

Just as the effects of domineering parents (especially mothers who don't want to let their sons grow up -- resulting in a sick situation all the way around) the old world hierarchs wanting to keep American Orthodoxy in diapers is unhealthy!

They will always NOT recognize an autocephalas American Othodoxy.

But some day they kid is gonna grow up and there will be no denying its manhood. Attempts to do so will be sick and foolish and will ultimately fail.

I can only hope we are living in that time right now.

Just for the record, I am not implying that the OCA has to be that American Othodox Church or even be the structural basis for it. Realistically, without the Greeks there can be no American Orthodox Church, anyway.

Wowzers. That's a view I'm definitely going to oppose.
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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #442 on: April 16, 2009, 03:36:53 AM »
Somewhere earlier someone mentioned Met. Jonah's sermon as a sort of Monroe Doctrine of American Orthodoxy. I agree. We NEED a Monroe Doctrine. American Orthodoxy is for AMERICANS. Othodoxy has been on this continent since 1794, over 200 years. We don't need to be be baby sat.

Look, none of the old world hierarchs respect America or American Orthodoxy and they never will. Partly because we are in the West and partly because we are in fact Americans and it is easy for people in the OLD World to dismiss us. Every mother Church will attempt to infantilize its American "diaspora" as long as Christ chooses not to return. In their minds (the mother churches) we are still in diapers and they intend to keep us that way.

Just as the effects of domineering parents (especially mothers who don't want to let their sons grow up -- resulting in a sick situation all the way around) the old world hierarchs wanting to keep American Orthodoxy in diapers is unhealthy!

They will always NOT recognize an autocephalas American Othodoxy.

But some day they kid is gonna grow up and there will be no denying its manhood. Attempts to do so will be sick and foolish and will ultimately fail.

I can only hope we are living in that time right now.

Just for the record, I am not implying that the OCA has to be that American Othodox Church or even be the structural basis for it. Realistically, without the Greeks there can be no American Orthodox Church, anyway.
So why don't we just declare our independence from the Old World and set up our own schism. ::)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 03:43:19 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #443 on: April 16, 2009, 03:46:37 AM »
Somewhere earlier someone mentioned Met. Jonah's sermon as a sort of Monroe Doctrine of American Orthodoxy. I agree. We NEED a Monroe Doctrine. American Orthodoxy is for AMERICANS.
:o
I really don't know what to say except that this is so far from Orthodox Ecclesiology that it might as well have been suggested by a schismatic.
Are you talking about "Unity" or "American Independence"? I'm not sure any more.
But thankfully, the Death and Resurrection of Christ is so much bigger than this.
Good Pascha!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 03:59:49 AM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #444 on: April 16, 2009, 07:05:09 AM »
Somewhere earlier someone mentioned Met. Jonah's sermon as a sort of Monroe Doctrine of American Orthodoxy. I agree. We NEED a Monroe Doctrine. American Orthodoxy is for AMERICANS.
:o
I really don't know what to say except that this is so far from Orthodox Ecclesiology that it might as well have been suggested by a schismatic.
Are you talking about "Unity" or "American Independence"? I'm not sure any more.
But thankfully, the Death and Resurrection of Christ is so much bigger than this.
Good Pascha!

Aren't the white pointy hoods worn by certain disgruntled Americans originally a Catholic (I think Spanish) clerical garb? Given some of the comments above, I think now would be a good time to revive them as part of the Western Rite.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 07:07:45 AM by Orthodox11 »

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #445 on: April 16, 2009, 07:16:55 AM »
[
Aren't the white pointy hoods worn by certain disgruntled Americans originally a Catholic (I think Spanish) clerical garb? Given some of the comments above,

The KKK is not maonstream America...far from it...maybe instead of a "tea party" we need an "incense party". Comments like the one I quoted just show me how much people misunderstand the American Church.
Its all about the money...its always money..the EP,MP and Antioch all want our money

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #446 on: April 16, 2009, 07:33:17 AM »
Look, none of the old world hierarchs respect America or American Orthodoxy and they never will. Partly because we are in the West and partly because we are in fact Americans and it is easy for people in the OLD World to dismiss us. Every mother Church will attempt to infantilize its American "diaspora" as long as Christ chooses not to return. In their minds (the mother churches) we are still in diapers and they intend to keep us that way.

Just as the effects of domineering parents (especially mothers who don't want to let their sons grow up -- resulting in a sick situation all the way around) the old world hierarchs wanting to keep American Orthodoxy in diapers is unhealthy!

They will always NOT recognize an autocephalas American Othodoxy.

This view is way too negative.  I have a lot more confidence in and appreciation for the "Old World" hierarchs than all of that noise.  Call me ignorant or naive, but I think that everyone has good intentions!  God bless and keep the protectors and bringers of Orthodoxy to the Americas!

As I've posted, 2 Old World Patriarchs and a Catholicos and 2 Metropolitans HAVE recognized an autocephalous American Orthodoxy.  Three other patriachs and an archbishop have not opposed.
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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #447 on: April 16, 2009, 08:06:26 AM »
[
Aren't the white pointy hoods worn by certain disgruntled Americans originally a Catholic (I think Spanish) clerical garb? Given some of the comments above,

The KKK is not maonstream America...far from it...maybe instead of a "tea party" we need an "incense party". Comments like the one I quoted just show me how much people misunderstand the American Church.
Its all about the money...its always money..the EP,MP and Antioch all want our money
Take it easy on the money thing here (empathise with your frustration). Much of this is probably centered more on insecurity and control issues. I believe the hierarchs have long lost touch with a laity that may legitimately question certain actions by hierarchs and many of us in America rightly question blind allegience to human authority but we must also take care here. In our parish in the 1940s the congregation split on supporting the parish priest; my grandfather  (who regrettably left the church) was part of the group loyal to their priest but a majority decided to oust the priest. Nonetheless, whether this was legit or not, it must have been an old world style of parish life and apparently the status quo (since the bishop did not respond to the congregants who wanted to retain the priest) tolerated it. This is probably just one small example of why immigration only Orthodoxy seems not to sustain.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #448 on: April 16, 2009, 08:19:20 AM »
Ialmisry,
Abandon this and come celebrate the Feast of Feasts with us.
If Christ is Risen, nothing else matters, and if Christ is not Risen, nothing else matters.
George
 :)

See the link.  I am hoping for a Resurrection.

My hope is in the Resurrection. :)
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SDMPNS

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Re: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!
« Reply #449 on: April 16, 2009, 08:21:15 AM »
I am not sure I agree with you...we had a split in our parish here in Pensacola, Florida as has happened in other parts of Florida and Met. Alexios didn't intervene.
I think "old country" Orthodox practice stopped working years ago...if it ever worked at all..even in the old country...
and it is money..its always money..Met Alexios was very unhappy when he realized the wealthy parishoners at the GOA parish transferred to the Antiochian parish...thats when he woke up but it was too late.....................
Met.Jonah sounds very prescient...