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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!  (Read 40689 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: April 09, 2009, 03:01:37 AM »

So... How does the OCA handle Thanksgiving?
I can't speak for the whole of the OCA, but I can speak for my OCA parish, which is under the oversight of Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the West.  We treat Thanksgiving as if it were another major feast day, with the Akathist Glory to God for All Things on Wednesday evening and the Divine Liturgy on Thursday morning.

Oh, so like the GOA, which is toiling under the oppressive thumb of our Turkish despot who allows no cultural manifestations of anything non-hellenic  Wink
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« Reply #271 on: April 09, 2009, 03:02:05 AM »

Would have been a very good sermon on the need for a united American Orthodox Church if not for the straw man pot shots His Beatitude felt he needed to take at the EP and the GOAA.
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« Reply #272 on: April 09, 2009, 03:07:07 AM »

So... How does the OCA handle Thanksgiving?
I can't speak for the whole of the OCA, but I can speak for my OCA parish, which is under the oversight of Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the West.  We treat Thanksgiving as if it were another major feast day, with the Akathist Glory to God for All Things on Wednesday evening and the Divine Liturgy on Thursday morning.

Oh, so like the GOA, which is toiling under the oppressive thumb of our Turkish despot who allows no cultural manifestations of anything non-hellenic  Wink
Yeah, there's a very strongly missionary-minded GOA church in my city of residence to prove this claim the straw man it really is. Wink  Imagine a GOAA parish that is thoroughly American and made up predominantly of converts who were attracted to the parish by its simple presentation of the Orthodox Gospel and its strong sense of community.  As a sign of how alive the parish is, they even have a strong and active group of young adults.
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« Reply #273 on: April 09, 2009, 03:09:44 AM »

Everyone has a part in it.  But those of us who support the EP seem to be the only ones admitting when someone on our side of the fence has done something wrong...

I am under the Serbian Patriarch, and I live in Missouri.  This seems silly to me.  When I started attending the services, I still had to look at a globe to find exactly where Serbia is (all I knew was a general "East Europe").  I really do support having our own unified American church, but everyone seems to be so nasty about it.

That being said, despite me liking what the OCA represents, I absolutely hated every minute of this video.  How can a monastic be so rude?  How can someone seem to hold so much contempt for the "old world", which alone has preserved the Orthodox faith.  The whole thing just seemed so ungrateful and all about how great America is.  

Also, there was too much whining about ethnicity.  Religion and culture are inseparable.  Deal with it.  These people have a deep cultural connection with their faith, just as American religious freedom culture equals read the Bible and decide for yourself.  Invent your own religion.  Whatever.  That is our cultural heritage.

But I don't need to hear some silly rally speech.  I want to see Christian love and charity on all sides.  Whenever I hear about Christ amidst all of this squawking, it just makes me want to roll on the floor in laughter.  I think I am really going to need to step away from the Church politics and just pay attention to the liturgy from now on, because this whole realm of Orthodoxy really holds no spiritual value for me.  All that I care about now is getting ready for the day when I can partake of the divine, immortal life-creating mysteries.

+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.
Just a note to mention that this post was nominated for Post of the Month.
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« Reply #274 on: April 09, 2009, 03:13:14 AM »

Would have been a very good sermon on the need for a united American Orthodox Church if not for the straw man pot shots His Beatitude felt he needed to take at the EP and the GOAA.

Well obviously the head of the American Metropolia of the Moscow Patriarchate is simply taking orders from the Kremlin.  We all know that. 
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« Reply #275 on: April 09, 2009, 03:26:42 AM »

His Eminence's speech addressed the issues that needed to be addressed.

As we were able to read asianews.it report about the agenda of the gathering scheduled in June on Cyprus (and who doubts asianews.it is a well-informed about it?), I wonder if "joint calendar" means that all will get back to Church Calendar, or someone feel the need to push the majority of us to adopt what already caused schism in Greece? In case of the latter, I think whomever brings such an initiative to the gathering should be anathemized.

Moreover, I wonder if the teachings of Mrt. Zlizious of Pergamon will be debated at the gathering, since it was more than one single voice that labeled his teachings heretical.

Finally, the format of the gathering isn't appropriate to decide about anything and I hope this question of all questions is clarified at these "preparatory meetings".

Every bishop needs to be allowed to attend, raise questions and vote, so we really have a Pan-Orthodox gathering, instead of superficial approval of pre-mediated decisions with the taste of phanariotic kitchen.
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« Reply #276 on: April 09, 2009, 03:26:43 AM »

Opinions (that one can read here) that we would have women ordination and other kinds of apostasy in no minute if there were no Phanar to safeguard us are simply wrong.

I hope inquirers don't buy into various inaccurate interpretations and unorthodox opinions of the people that are apparently supporters of current occupant of EP throne and several of his predecessors in what one could describe as decades long misbehavior.

It seems there is a chance we have quite an interesting Orthodox gathering in June on Cyprus.
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« Reply #277 on: April 09, 2009, 03:26:43 AM »

If the assertion that +JONAH makes is that the EP stands first only symbolically, then I would appreciate seeing some support for this from the canons, the Church traditions, and the Fathers.  If the primacy of a hierarch (any hierarch) is only symbolic and not reality, then that turns the entire ecclesiology of the Church and theology of the priesthood on its head!  I hope I'm making sense here.


To me, you aren't making sense, but not because you produce the interpretation of your own, than because you are repeating an already known novel stance of EP.

Liturgical primacy is precisely the primacy of honor.

Instead of asking for canons of Fathers to support His Beatitude Jonah' stance, we are still to see the reference in support of EP's stance of her understanding of Canon 28 of the 4th Council (Chalcedon) and her own primacy, with the explicit reference to the following:

1) Granting of autocephalia to the Patriarchate of Georgia by the Patriarchate of Antioch, although Georgia would match definition of C. 28 of the 4th Council as understood at present by EP.

2) Lack of jurisdiction of EP over Germany, near-Baltic countries and Scandinavia after Chalcedon but before 1054/1204 (i.e. the final separation of Rome), although these territories would match definition of C. 28 of the 4th Council as understood at present by EP.

3) The explicit comment of the most authoritative cannonist of the Orthodoxy, Balsamon, of the Canon 28 of the 4th Council, refuting explicitly present interpretation of the same.

4) Explanation why EP needs additional "Pan-Orthodox Gatherings" and her interpretation of the 28th canon of the 4th Council on the agenda of such a gathering if it isn't a novelty.

Many years to Metropolitan Jonah, the voice of Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #278 on: April 09, 2009, 03:26:44 AM »

Everyone has a part in it.  But those of us who support the EP seem to be the only ones admitting when someone on our side of the fence has done something wrong...

I am under the Serbian Patriarch, and I live in Missouri.  This seems silly to me.  When I started attending the services, I still had to look at a globe to find exactly where Serbia is (all I knew was a general "East Europe").  I really do support having our own unified American church, but everyone seems to be so nasty about it.

That being said, despite me liking what the OCA represents, I absolutely hated every minute of this video.  How can a monastic be so rude?  How can someone seem to hold so much contempt for the "old world", which alone has preserved the Orthodox faith.  The whole thing just seemed so ungrateful and all about how great America is.  

Also, there was too much whining about ethnicity.  Religion and culture are inseparable.  Deal with it.  These people have a deep cultural connection with their faith, just as American religious freedom culture equals read the Bible and decide for yourself.  Invent your own religion.  Whatever.  That is our cultural heritage.

But I don't need to hear some silly rally speech.  I want to see Christian love and charity on all sides.  Whenever I hear about Christ amidst all of this squawking, it just makes me want to roll on the floor in laughter.  I think I am really going to need to step away from the Church politics and just pay attention to the liturgy from now on, because this whole realm of Orthodoxy really holds no spiritual value for me.  All that I care about now is getting ready for the day when I can partake of the divine, immortal life-creating mysteries.

+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.
Just a note to mention that this post was nominated for Post of the Month.

Sure, sure.

No doubt that could be a post of a season in a phanariotic madness magazine.
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« Reply #279 on: April 09, 2009, 05:45:54 AM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.
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« Reply #280 on: April 09, 2009, 06:09:44 AM »


It seems there is a chance we have quite an interesting Orthodox gathering in June on Cyprus.

Unfortunately yes.

Unfortunately, what we have been been seeing with the Chief Secretary and with Metropolitan Jonah's response are the opening skirmishes to these pan-Orthodox Synods scheduled for June and October. 

Fortunately we may hope that sanity will prevail at the June pan-Orthodox Synod on Cyprus.  Iustinos has given us the voice of sanity already with what he quoted from Blessed Father Justin Popovic.  Iustinos' message here http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20605.msg308898.html#msg308898

We can expect that Serbia will stand in support of Fr Justin's ecclesiology which is nothing other than our authentic ecclesiology.   Several of Serbia's senior hierarchs are Fr Justin's disciples.

Likewise, there will be no question that Russia will support Fr Justin's ecclesiology.

While we have very divergent opinions on these matters, there is no doubt that they have the potential to cause harm to the Church and we need to send up some really sincere prayer that the will of the Lord will become clear and that the Church will be preserved from schism.

Even the preparations for the preparatory pan-Orthodox Synods are proving that the great fears of Fr Justin about the Holy and Great Council are very real fears.

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« Reply #281 on: April 09, 2009, 07:33:19 AM »

http://www.oca.org/news/1811

Metropolitan Jonah:
"The Conciliar Structures of the Orthodox Church in America"

Posted 04/09

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] -- His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah has released a follow-up article to "A Time of Crisis and Opportunity," a paper delivered at the opening session of the 2009 Spring meeting of the OCA's Metropolitan Council.

"Titled 'The Conciliar Structures of the Orthodox Church in America,' Metropolitan Jonah's second paper offers a vision for the practical application within the life of the OCA of the ideas on Church structure and governance presented in 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity,'" said OCA Director of Ministries and Communications, Archpriest Andrew Jarmus.

'The Conciliar Structures of the Orthodox Church in America" by Metropolitan Jonah may be read here:
http://www.oca.org/jonah-2009-0409.html

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« Reply #282 on: April 09, 2009, 07:50:47 AM »

I read a report today that said due to the variability of where it was falling in the week, the Feast of the celebration of April's Fool's will be moved to coincide with Forgiveness Vespers.  Everyone agreed.
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« Reply #283 on: April 09, 2009, 07:55:36 AM »

 

Un/fortunately, the Church is not a democracy.

and thus since it isn't, Fr. Elpidophoros' speech is not representative of Church history or what the Church is.

You are welcome to your opinion. Without the conciliar approval of the Church, the status of the OCA will remain in limbo.

Rome refused to approve Constantinople's status for nearly a millenium.  Constantinople survived, I am sure the OCA will too.
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« Reply #284 on: April 09, 2009, 07:57:04 AM »

Beyond the U.S., I understand that Canada's GOA is more an embodiment of what you say are "fears."  Can anyone in Canada comment?

Can you clarify this statement for me?

More Greek/Hellenocentric, more autocratic, more closed off to the society they actually live in, more committed to foreign rule, etc.
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« Reply #285 on: April 09, 2009, 08:16:31 AM »

Would have been a very good sermon on the need for a united American Orthodox Church if not for the straw man pot shots His Beatitude felt he needed to take at the EP and the GOAA.

I think why he felt the need is key here:
Quote
There is one solution, that’s being proposed, in which we all submit, to uh Constantinople.  We all submit, to a foreign patriarchate,  where all decisions will be made there, where we will have no say in the decisions that will be made, we will have no decisions in our own destiny, and we surrender the freedom that we have embraces as American Orthodox Christians, to a Patriarchate still under Islamic domination. 
I think we have a better solution.  That we come, and this is something of the utmost importance, and it is something immanent,  it’s not something that we can wait and say “Oh maybe in my grandchildren’s time we’ll have orthodox unity.”  I’m talking about June.  And if you think I’m kidding, there is a conference being convened at the Phanar in June to discuss exactly this – actually it’s in Cyprus.  To subject the diaspora to the single, singular control – the so called diaspora – well, of the patriarchate of Constantinople, and thereby come into unity.  Well, that’s one model for unity.  I would submit that if we wanted a pope we would be under the real one.  And I don’t think any of us want a pope, otherwise we wouldn’t be here

Since many, for what ever reason, felt the need to compare his beatitude to 1770's Boston and pubs:
Quote
I once felt all that kind of anger, which a man ought to feel, against the mean principles that are held by the Tories: a noted one, who kept a tavern at Amboy, was standing at his door, with as pretty a child in his hand, about eight or nine years old, as I ever saw, and after speaking his mind as freely as he thought was prudent, finished with this unfatherly expression, "Well! give me peace in my day." Not a man lives on the continent but fully believes that a separation must some time or other finally take place, and a generous parent should have said, "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace;" and this single reflection, well applied, is sufficient to awaken every man to duty. Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them. A man can distinguish himself between temper and principle, and I am as confident, as I am that God governs the world, that America will never be happy till she gets clear of foreign dominion. Wars, without ceasing, will break out till that period arrives, and the continent must in the end be conqueror; for though the flame of liberty may sometimes cease to shine, the coal can never expire.
http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/Crisis-1.html
"The American Crisis," by Thomas Paine (not usually one of my favorites, I admit)
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« Reply #286 on: April 09, 2009, 08:45:01 AM »

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« Reply #287 on: April 09, 2009, 09:09:11 AM »

I just came across this:

Quote
Greeting from His Eminence, Leo,
Archbishop of Karelia and All Finland
To His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah
on the occasion of his Enthronement


Your Beatitude, Your Eminences, Your Graces, Distinguished Guests, my brothers and sisters in Christ:

A thousand years ago monks from Valaam monastery set out to bring the Gospel to Finland.  Two hundred years ago monks from Valaam monastery set out to bring the Gospel to North America.  Our two Churches, children of the same tradition, now celebrate together as yet another spiritual child of Valaam, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah, begins this same missionary task of bringing the Gospel to North America as the head of the Orthodox Church in America.

And what is this Gospel?  As His Beatitude wrote:  “It is the Good News that the Kingdom of God is present, here and now, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and you can be baptized into it, commune of its grace, and be filled with new life.  And what does this do for us?  It heals our souls, raises us up from despair, and enables us to deal with any obstacles that comes in our way.”

Two thousand years of tradition in two sentences!  Only an American could do this.  Only an American would want to do this.  The words are simple, direct, pragmatic.  And yet, what hope is in these words – the Hope of the God Who became Man for our sake, the Hope of a suffering world, the hope of old words when spoken by a young, vital speaker.

Hope, too, for the Orthodox Church.  The OCA has a vocation not only to bring hope to the world, and to North America specifically, but to bring hope to the Orthodox world as well.  Hope that things do not always have to be done in the same, old, no-longer productive ways;  Hope that as things change, they can change for the better;  Hope that the future can be as exciting as a glorious past.  Among many Orthodox Churches such notions are almost unthinkable – and certainly not easy to do.  But if the two hundred year history of the OCA shows anything, in its growth from a group of monks from Valaam, through missionary diocese, to diocese, archdiocese, independent Metropolia and finally autocephalous Church – it is that much that is not possible elsewhere is possible in North America.  The Orthodox Church is a State Church – but not in America.  The Orthodox Church is ethnically homogeneous – but not in America.  The Orthodox Church worships in ancient languages few understand – but not in America.  (And not in Finland, either!)

But important as such changes are, it is equally important that the OCA’s vocation has been to keep safe vital Orthodox traditions from the past.  It is in the OCA that the legacy of St. Patriarch Tikhon’s conciliar approach to church life endures – even if he himself could not keep it alive in Russia during the Communist era.  It is in the OCA that Fr. Florovsky and Fr. Meyendoff continued to develop the highest traditions of orthodox theological education – when so much of the Orthodox world was forced into silence.  It was in the OCA that Fr. Schmemann carried out his work – a legacy that is still helping a whole Church recover its Eucharistic identity and a deeper understanding of its liturgical traditions.

Your Beatitude:  Thi

http://www.oca.org/leo-enthronement-greeting.html

I could swear that Archb. Leo used to be on the EP's website, but I can't find him there now, just "Paul of Sweden and All Scandinavia": the site has "Archbishops of the Throne" and "Other Dioceses of the Throne around the world," staring with the "Holy Archdiocese of America," bu nothing on Finland.  The Orthodox Church in Finland's website stil states "The Finnish Orthodox Church is an autonomous Orthodox church that belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. It has about 60,000 members and is led by Archbishop Leo of Karelia and All Finland."
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« Reply #288 on: April 09, 2009, 09:45:17 AM »

Father Ambrose graciously told us about Metropolitan Jonah's "follow-up article to 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity,' a paper delivered at the opening session of the 2009 Spring meeting of the OCA's Metropolitan Council. Titled 'The Conciliar Structures of the Orthodox Church in America,' Metropolitan Jonah's second paper offers a vision for the practical application within the life of the OCA of the ideas on Church structure and governance presented in 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity'." This is how it starts:

"The Calling of the Orthodox Church in America: Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you.

    * Mission/Identity: We are the presence of the fullness of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, incarnate as the Local, Indigenous Territorial Orthodox Church in North America, embracing all Orthodox Christians regardless of any ethnic, linguistic or cultural distinctions. We are essentially a missionary Church, striving to bring the full integrity of the Gospel of Christ to all the people of North America, so that they may come to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and communion of the Holy Spirit, in the One Body of Christ.

    * Core Values:
          o The Gospel of Jesus Christ
          o Missionary
          o Diverse & inclusive
          o Multi-cultural
          o Multi-ethnic
          o Multi-lingual
          o Non-Colonial
          o Non-Diaspora
          o Ascetic
          o Monastic
          o Sanctity"

I like it. Nay, I love it! I will post additional excerpts as we go along.
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« Reply #289 on: April 09, 2009, 10:24:06 AM »



I now realize what fears exist in Canadian GOA.  There's a big scary red communist leaf in the flag.  Shocked
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« Reply #290 on: April 09, 2009, 11:34:46 AM »

More food for thought from Metropolitan Jonah's paper on conciliarity.

"There is a very damaging false notion that the lay people are separate from the clergy, and that the clergy are different from the laity. This is not the case! The clergy are simply those laity invested with a particular scope of responsibility by the whole Church, in a structure of accountability. In particular, the presbyters and deacons are accountable to the bishop for their stewardship of the life of the parishes. However, all members share responsibility for the Body, but have differing levels of accountability. The priests and bishops are accountable for each member of the Body by their ordination. Each member is important. Each member has a voice, and must be heard.

There are two related attitudes that constitute baggage from the past, temptations which have afflicted the Church and distorted its life and indeed, its conciliarity. Both stem from an abrogation of responsibility. Clericalism comes from an abrogation of responsibility by the laity for the affairs of the church, with the clergy taking over all functions; even the loss of the traditional ministerial role of the diaconate and pastoral role of the episcopate, with the concentration of all "ministry" in the presbyters, is a kind of clericalism . Trusteeism comes from a refusal of the clergy to accept their responsibility for the more mundane aspects of the life of the Church, which was then seized upon by lay leaders. This resulted in the priests being responsible for what happens in the altar; the parish council for everything else in the church. Both result from a breakdown of conciliarity, in which the integrity of each area of responsibility in a structure of accountability is critical. Conciliarity can be partially defined as shared responsibility with distinct levels of accountability. In both reductions, authority becomes identified with power; there is tremendous resentment and mistrust of the others by the persons disenfranchised. Both the clergy and laity need to recognize their areas of responsibility, and support one another in the exercise of that authority. The rector of a parish, or the bishop of a diocese, has complete responsibility for every aspect of the life of the community under his care, liturgical, spiritually, financial, legal, and administrative. But he cannot do it alone; it has to be done in cooperation with the laity, who are empowered with responsibility for certain areas by delegation.

The image used by St Paul of the body is very valuable in approaching this: the eye is not the foot, which is not the hand; there are parts more or less presentable, more or less private. Yet it takes all the parts working together, doing what they are supposed to be doing, and all have to be united to the Head, to Jesus Christ, the real Leader of the Church."
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« Reply #291 on: April 09, 2009, 11:46:06 AM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.
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« Reply #292 on: April 09, 2009, 11:52:18 AM »

Actually the New Calendar isn't imposed in the OCA, there are parishes that don't use it.

Ok, outside of Alaska, what parishes in in the OCA don't use the Revised Julian Calender?  Give me a list.

I cant give you a full list but there are without doubt OCA Church's outside of Alaska who use the Old Calendar. I have a friend who is a Reader in an OCA Church in Linclon Nebraska who use the "Old Calendar".
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« Reply #293 on: April 09, 2009, 12:07:01 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

Father, why not given the examples we have seen from ALL the Hierarchs (and Their designated representatives, straw men, et al.) involved?

Have any of these Hierarchs (and their designated representatives, etc.)  really emulated Christ?  Or are they emulating themselves with flowery rhetoric?

Whatever happens in Cyprus could very well become the modern Chalcedon for how long do you think the parties involved can contain their emotions and succumb to the near 2 Centuries of pressure that the anachronistic Hellenism has inflicted on the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
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« Reply #294 on: April 09, 2009, 12:13:40 PM »

If the assertion that +JONAH makes is that the EP stands first only symbolically, then I would appreciate seeing some support for this from the canons, the Church traditions, and the Fathers.  If the primacy of a hierarch (any hierarch) is only symbolic and not reality, then that turns the entire ecclesiology of the Church and theology of the priesthood on its head!  I hope I'm making sense here.


To me, you aren't making sense, but not because you produce the interpretation of your own, than because you are repeating an already known novel stance of EP.

Liturgical primacy is precisely the primacy of honor.

Instead of asking for canons of Fathers to support His Beatitude Jonah' stance, we are still to see the reference in support of EP's stance of her understanding of Canon 28 of the 4th Council (Chalcedon) and her own primacy, with the explicit reference to the following:

1) Granting of autocephalia to the Patriarchate of Georgia by the Patriarchate of Antioch, although Georgia would match definition of C. 28 of the 4th Council as understood at present by EP.

2) Lack of jurisdiction of EP over Germany, near-Baltic countries and Scandinavia after Chalcedon but before 1054/1204 (i.e. the final separation of Rome), although these territories would match definition of C. 28 of the 4th Council as understood at present by EP.

3) The explicit comment of the most authoritative cannonist of the Orthodoxy, Balsamon, of the Canon 28 of the 4th Council, refuting explicitly present interpretation of the same.

4) Explanation why EP needs additional "Pan-Orthodox Gatherings" and her interpretation of the 28th canon of the 4th Council on the agenda of such a gathering if it isn't a novelty.

Many years to Metropolitan Jonah, the voice of Orthodoxy!

Thank you for this, Orthodoxlurker!  I appreciate you being specific and giving specific examples.  They are exactly what I was hoping for.  I don't know enough of these issues, and will have to study more to comment specifically on them.
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« Reply #295 on: April 09, 2009, 01:03:33 PM »

Father Ambrose graciously told us about Metropolitan Jonah's "follow-up article to 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity,' a paper delivered at the opening session of the 2009 Spring meeting of the OCA's Metropolitan Council. Titled 'The Conciliar Structures of the Orthodox Church in America,' Metropolitan Jonah's second paper offers a vision for the practical application within the life of the OCA of the ideas on Church structure and governance presented in 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity'." This is how it starts:

"The Calling of the Orthodox Church in America: Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you.

    * Mission/Identity: We are the presence of the fullness of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, incarnate as the Local, Indigenous Territorial Orthodox Church in North America, embracing all Orthodox Christians regardless of any ethnic, linguistic or cultural distinctions. We are essentially a missionary Church, striving to bring the full integrity of the Gospel of Christ to all the people of North America, so that they may come to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and communion of the Holy Spirit, in the One Body of Christ.

    * Core Values:
          o The Gospel of Jesus Christ
          o Missionary
          o Diverse & inclusive
          o Multi-cultural
          o Multi-ethnic
          o Multi-lingual
          o Non-Colonial
          o Non-Diaspora
          o Ascetic
          o Monastic
          o Sanctity"

I like it. Nay, I love it! I will post additional excerpts as we go along.


I hope those in Moscow then are listening to all of this.
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« Reply #296 on: April 09, 2009, 01:56:06 PM »

Father Ambrose graciously told us about Metropolitan Jonah's "follow-up article to 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity,' a paper delivered at the opening session of the 2009 Spring meeting of the OCA's Metropolitan Council. Titled 'The Conciliar Structures of the Orthodox Church in America,' Metropolitan Jonah's second paper offers a vision for the practical application within the life of the OCA of the ideas on Church structure and governance presented in 'A Time of Crisis and Opportunity'." This is how it starts:

"The Calling of the Orthodox Church in America: Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you.

    * Mission/Identity: We are the presence of the fullness of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, incarnate as the Local, Indigenous Territorial Orthodox Church in North America, embracing all Orthodox Christians regardless of any ethnic, linguistic or cultural distinctions. We are essentially a missionary Church, striving to bring the full integrity of the Gospel of Christ to all the people of North America, so that they may come to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and communion of the Holy Spirit, in the One Body of Christ.

    * Core Values:
          o The Gospel of Jesus Christ
          o Missionary
          o Diverse & inclusive
          o Multi-cultural
          o Multi-ethnic
          o Multi-lingual
          o Non-Colonial
          o Non-Diaspora
          o Ascetic
          o Monastic
          o Sanctity"

I like it. Nay, I love it! I will post additional excerpts as we go along.


I hope those in Moscow then are listening to all of this.

My, my, the Tikis are restless.  Seems someone has a beef with Moscow that perhaps they would like to get off their chest?

I am quite sure that Pat. Kyrill contributed to the stiffness of Met. Jonah's spine.  So yes, I am sure Moscow is aware of all of the above.  Your point?
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« Reply #297 on: April 09, 2009, 02:48:09 PM »

Quote
Seems someone has a beef with Moscow that perhaps they would like to get off their chest?

If the issues listed are important in North America, they're important everywhere.  Right?  Having an "ethnic" church for instance is not simply a North American issue, it is in fact a bigger problem overseas.

Do I have a beef with Moscow?  I definitely think there are things about the MP that are not good, but hopefully my feeling doesn't approach anything like the pathological hatred for Constantinople displayed by others here and elsewhere.
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« Reply #298 on: April 09, 2009, 03:35:36 PM »

I've come to the conclusion that none of this actually matters at all.  Never mind.
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« Reply #299 on: April 09, 2009, 04:26:02 PM »

Quote
Our first option would be to "go Balkan," wherein we declare our own autocephaly and union independently of the Mother Patriarchate(s), and said autocephaly is then reluctantly approved hundreds of years down the road as a tacit, de jure nod to a living, de facto Orthodox body.

You are aware that you ARE autocephalous, aren't you?

Really, you had to make that comment?  He's talking about us all as a whole - OCA, GOA, AOA, SOC, ROC, etc. - and it's pretty obvious.  Why ask the question?

The blog is not clear.  I'd comment further, but we are getting ready for Presanctified.

I can see how that might have been clear, but notice that I said "Consequently, we have multiple bishops in a single city, something that is truly ridiculous and a horrid witness.

Our first option would be to "go Balkan," wherein we declare our own autocephaly and union independently of the Mother Patriarchate(s)"

My assumption, I suppose, was that the "we" talk in the first paragraph would make it clear that I was talking about all of SCOBA's people, since the OCA does not have multiple bishops in a single city (may not be true for Bulgarian/Romanian parts of OCA, but in general, you get my drift).  Sorry for the confusion.  Yes, I am aware and do believe that the OCA is autocephalous.
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« Reply #300 on: April 09, 2009, 04:58:47 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Protosyngellos Amvrosios
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« Reply #301 on: April 09, 2009, 05:04:03 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Shhhhh...don't blow my cover. Cool
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« Reply #302 on: April 09, 2009, 05:07:01 PM »

...hopefully my feeling doesn't approach anything like the pathological hatred for Constantinople displayed by others here and elsewhere.

I have no pathological hatred for Constantinople.

I agree fully with what Iustinos posted here from Blessed Justin Popovic:

"...Constantinople, which in the persons of its holy and great hierarchs, its clergy and its people, so boldly opposed for centuries past the Roman protectionism and absolutism.."

Constantinople desrves endless praise for its preservation of holy Orthodoxy through many long and often diffficult centuries.

I have a major problem with the present All-Holiness and I found it even prevented me greeting him and taking his blessing when he visited New Zealand but I fear to reveal the basis of my problem for fear of the damage it could cause the "little ones."
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« Reply #303 on: April 09, 2009, 05:21:26 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Protosyngellos Amvrosios

You might want to be careful with titles you put for yourself father because for some people they mean certain things you might not want them to.  For example, in the GOA "protosyngellos" is the title given ONLY to the chancellor of a diocese/metropolis.  It could be confusing for people. 
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« Reply #304 on: April 09, 2009, 05:33:19 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Protosyngellos Amvrosios

You might want to be careful with titles you put for yourself father because for some people they mean certain things you might not want them to.  For example, in the GOA "protosyngellos" is the title given ONLY to the chancellor of a diocese/metropolis.  It could be confusing for people. 

In that case, would you stop referring to GOA bishops as Metropolitans?  After all, that means a different thing for those of Slavic tradition than those of Greek.  Seriously, we've all gotten along just fine in the past with differing usages for titles in the past, such as Archbishop and Metropolitan, without any insistence that someone of a slightly different tradition not use their title for fear of confusion.  Why now and why the insistence that the GOA usage be the standard?
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« Reply #305 on: April 09, 2009, 05:41:37 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Protosyngellos Amvrosios

You might want to be careful with titles you put for yourself father because for some people they mean certain things you might not want them to.  For example, in the GOA "protosyngellos" is the title given ONLY to the chancellor of a diocese/metropolis.  It could be confusing for people. 

Given to me by the Serbian bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Australia and New Zealand in recognition of the immigration and refugee work I did in the early 1990s during the time of the various wars in the ex-Yugoslavia, sponsoring several hundred Serbian families and bringing them to a new life in New Zealand.   In the Slavic tradition a protosyngel as a honorific title ranks above an igumen but below an archimandrite.  I must admit that I never use the title.  I am quite content to be a garden variety hieromonk.
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« Reply #306 on: April 09, 2009, 06:47:54 PM »

His Eminence Metropolitan PHILIP Saliba reflects on Canon 28
and its meaning for the Churches in the Disapora.

http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=120

Canon 28 of the 4th Ecumenical Council - Relevant Or Irrelevant Today?
By Met. Philip Saliba

"Of all the canons dealing with Church authority and jurisdiction, there is
probably none more controversial and debated in inter-Orthodox circles today
than Canon 28 of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held in the city of
Chalcedon in the year 451. Those of us familiar with Church history know
that the Ecumenical Council was called to put an end to the ongoing
Christological debates of the time. While this was the main focus of the
Council, like other councils before and after, it dealt with other pressing
issues of the day..... "
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« Reply #307 on: April 09, 2009, 07:11:23 PM »


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Protosyngellos Amvrosios

You might want to be careful with titles you put for yourself father because for some people they mean certain things you might not want them to.  For example, in the GOA "protosyngellos" is the title given ONLY to the chancellor of a diocese/metropolis.  It could be confusing for people. 

In that case, would you stop referring to GOA bishops as Metropolitans?  After all, that means a different thing for those of Slavic tradition than those of Greek.  Seriously, we've all gotten along just fine in the past with differing usages for titles in the past, such as Archbishop and Metropolitan, without any insistence that someone of a slightly different tradition not use their title for fear of confusion.  Why now and why the insistence that the GOA usage be the standard?

Good point.  Check and mate my friend.  I was just trying to avoid confusion.  to be honest, I personally as confused, but considering Father Ambrose' explanation (below), I DEFINITELY am not confused anymore and am very sorry I brought it up. 

Sorry, just wanted to clarify what he was talking about...mostly due to my confusion.  I retract my statement. 


+JONAH comes off as totally cocky and in general I found it to be rude.  I do not approve of this message.  Thumbs down.

Alveus,

Your words are probably a result of the confrontational nature of this thread (understandably) but it is still sad to hear a catechumen speaking in such a way.

But thankfully nothing said in this thread has been beneath the office of an alleged hieromonk.

Are there alleged hieromonks running around in this thread?  Hobgoblins reporting to Constantinople? or Moscow? or even the Vatican?

Protosyngellos Amvrosios

You might want to be careful with titles you put for yourself father because for some people they mean certain things you might not want them to.  For example, in the GOA "protosyngellos" is the title given ONLY to the chancellor of a diocese/metropolis.  It could be confusing for people. 

Given to me by the Serbian bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Australia and New Zealand in recognition of the immigration and refugee work I did in the early 1990s during the time of the various wars in the ex-Yugoslavia, sponsoring several hundred Serbian families and bringing them to a new life in New Zealand.   In the Slavic tradition a protosyngel as a honorific title ranks above an igumen but below an archimandrite.  I must admit that I never use the title.  I am quite content to be a garden variety hieromonk.

Sorry father, I totally forgot about that title. Not that many people have it.  I hope you forgive me, i really was genuinely confused. 
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« Reply #308 on: April 09, 2009, 07:57:48 PM »

I have no pathological hatred for Constantinople.

That's good to hear.

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« Reply #309 on: April 09, 2009, 08:13:38 PM »

I've come to the conclusion that none of this actually matters at all.  Never mind.

Welcome to the "who cares" side.  Tongue
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« Reply #310 on: April 09, 2009, 08:19:17 PM »

The Copts look pretty damn good dude.
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« Reply #311 on: April 09, 2009, 08:27:32 PM »

I have no pathological hatred for Constantinople.

That's good to hear.

Some of my best friends are black.

I suppose we are all left dangling now, wondering which of the forum's members you see as suffering from a "pathological hatred" of Constantinople.
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« Reply #312 on: April 09, 2009, 08:31:20 PM »

cleveland, though you have to dig to find it.
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« Reply #313 on: April 10, 2009, 02:44:56 AM »

Beyond the U.S., I understand that Canada's GOA is more an embodiment of what you say are "fears."  Can anyone in Canada comment?

Can you clarify this statement for me?

More Greek/Hellenocentric, more autocratic, more closed off to the society they actually live in, more committed to foreign rule, etc.

Well keeping in mind I know of little of what transpires in hallowed halls of 1 Patriach Bartholomew Way in Toronto, I can not answer to the allegations of "more autocratic....more committed to foreign rule" I do have some experience with the Greeks in Canada.

I would say in Canada, the Greeks do alot of things that other jurisdictions don't do. The vast majority of Greek clergy are on Facebook (the Ukrainians are a close second in this respect) and at least one actually posts his sermons on Facebook. Based on the common perceptions of (Greek) Orthodox parishes, and the fact that he is a fairly new priest, I am amazed that he has avoided backlash from his parish from things he has said in his homilies--he must have an amazing parish council!

Yes, it is true that the Greeks have thus far in Canada not had the influx of converts that our neighbours to the South have, but at the same time under Metropolitan Sotirios they have  more than tripled in size. They have a significant amount of English in their services, and I have no problem with the local Greek parish at all.

Also I should mention that they have a seminary and are the only Canadian jurisdiction that has a podcast series (the local OCA parish does do a local radio show). They have an active national youth department and also a network for youth workers in their diocese.

All in all I would say that the GOCC is a pretty good diocese. The lack of converts is more due to Canadian culture than the lack of effort by the Metropolitanate.

More on topic....I fail to see how being autocephalous really makes a difference. My jurisdiction is autonomous, and I don't see any interference by Constantinople at all. At our Sobors yes there is an EP hierarch present, but that's it. Our Metropolitan has visited the EP in Constantinople and at that time the EP voiced his wishes to assist our jurisdiction in matters of concern. That's it. My local bishop is my ruling bishop and I love him. Above that is Metropolitan John and then Metropolitan Sotirios and then I would assume the EP himself.

Y'all really think the EP has so much time on his hands that he needs to interfere in the lives of the North American Orthodox community??

You really think that with serious issues amongst ALL the jurisdictions here in North America, it is beneficial to be pushing for unity and autocephaly??
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Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
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Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #314 on: April 10, 2009, 02:56:51 AM »

The Copts look pretty damn good dude.

Those Tiki gods are starting to look glamorous.  angel
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