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Author Topic: Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!  (Read 39588 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: April 07, 2009, 04:49:31 PM »


You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?

FWIW, I really have no dog in this hunt.  Yes, I am a member (catechumen) of the OCA but, being a former Catholic, I'm used to being "ruled over by a foreign monarch", so to speak.  

However, I fail to see how His Beatitude is a liar, which is what he is explicitly being called.  By all means, disagree with his interpretations of the facts, but do not call him a liar unless you can prove it.

I called it disingenuous, not being a lier.  Those are two very different things.  



You certainly did characterize it as disingenuos.  While I disagree with your assessment, you did not call him a liar.  I was referring mainly to AMM's statement.

Quote
Secondly, when we went to Constantinople last summer we were given a variable shopping list of things that Pat. Bartholomew has been able to do with the turkish gov't that no patriarch before him could have IMAGINED.  So stranglehold?  Not quite.  Is it comfortable for him?  Definitely not.  

I personally consider the inability to have a running seminary in one's own local diocese due to the explicit order of the ruling secular government (note, that part is italicized for a reason because I know full well not every diocese has its own seminary) and the fact that the ruling secular authority made it so within two generations or so there will probably be no acceptable candidate for Patriarch of Constantinople a "stranglehold", yes.  

Quote
Also, if I tell you "Schultz I want to be your best friend, to watch out for you, take care of your kids when you're gone, and support you financially for the rest of your life" and then go and say "Schultz, you're controlled by the liberalist jerks in america and that makes you easily controlled, so i'm not gona listen to you about how to take care of your kids"....how would you feel?  

We're not talking about my personal feelings, we're talking about the well being of a church that is not a diaspora.
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« Reply #136 on: April 07, 2009, 04:55:11 PM »


You can't say that you want to continue relationships with the mother churches, and then say that one of the mother churches is controlled by Turkish Islamists. That's being disingenuous. 

Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?

FWIW, I really have no dog in this hunt.  Yes, I am a member (catechumen) of the OCA but, being a former Catholic, I'm used to being "ruled over by a foreign monarch", so to speak.  

However, I fail to see how His Beatitude is a liar, which is what he is explicitly being called.  By all means, disagree with his interpretations of the facts, but do not call him a liar unless you can prove it.

I called it disingenuous, not being a lier.  Those are two very different things.  



You certainly did characterize it as disingenuos.  While I disagree with your assessment, you did not call him a liar.  I was referring mainly to AMM's statement.

Sorry about the confusion there.  thanks for the clear-up. 

Quote
Quote
Secondly, when we went to Constantinople last summer we were given a variable shopping list of things that Pat. Bartholomew has been able to do with the turkish gov't that no patriarch before him could have IMAGINED.  So stranglehold?  Not quite.  Is it comfortable for him?  Definitely not. 

I personally consider the inability to have a running seminary in one's own local diocese due to the explicit order of the ruling secular government (note, that part is italicized for a reason because I know full well not every diocese has its own seminary) and the fact that the ruling secular authority made it so within two generations or so there will probably be no acceptable candidate for Patriarch of Constantinople a "stranglehold", yes. 

I really do think that it is more balanced.  I agree with your point, but it's hard for me to put that up against the EP being the ONLY church allowed to use turkish in their services.  that's hard to beat. 

Quote
Quote
Also, if I tell you "Schultz I want to be your best friend, to watch out for you, take care of your kids when you're gone, and support you financially for the rest of your life" and then go and say "Schultz, you're controlled by the liberalist jerks in america and that makes you easily controlled, so i'm not gona listen to you about how to take care of your kids"....how would you feel? 

We're not talking about my personal feelings, we're talking about the well being of a church that is not a diaspora.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here.  I used the analogy of children completely erroneously.  After I wrote it I realized that it can have other connotations.  I didn't mean to be obtuse, it was an honest mistake. 

I think we can honestly say that it was not right to put the EP in a box like Met. Jonah did.  He could be right until the day he dies, but it was disrespectful (IMO).  That's just how I feel about it.  If you feel he was totally on and etc. I respect your opinion and i'm glad that we are having this conversation.  That's all I got for right now...

[edited to fix quote tags]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 04:56:06 PM by serb1389 » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: April 07, 2009, 04:59:36 PM »

Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?

They do not; the Patriarch's caution is mostly to prevent attacks by citizen groups rather than the Government, who in the past has sanctioned the Patriarchate (by not allowing the EP or other hierarchs to return to the country), but who of late has been reluctant to do so (part of the EU quest).  "Veritable stranglehold" isn't quite right; now, yes, the government does have a number of restrictions on the Patriarchate (they can't remove, for example, many of the manuscripts from the country, as they are considered historical items of the Turkish state), and since they don't recognize the Patriarchate as an entity property ownership is restricted.  But the EP's actions as Patriarch are not so severely limited - they do not interfere with the synod's selection of hierarchs (save the EP himself), nor with the internal operation of the Patriarchate (save the election of the EP himself), nor with the operation of the Patriarchate with regards to the rest of the Orthodox world (save the election of the EP himself).
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« Reply #138 on: April 07, 2009, 04:59:42 PM »

Quote
All of these are interpretations of facts and situations and not blatant falsehoods.

The statement that English would not be allowed is a blatant falsehood.  It is to scare people.  It is not true.  It is a you-know-what.

Quote
Considering each and every Orthodox jurisdiction under the EP (and others!) in this country has an ethnic identifier before the word "Orthodox" in its name, both officially (eg legal status) and colloquially, it's not a jump to believe that the Old World hierarchs have little interest in establishing an American Orthodox Church instead of just catering to a "diaspora".  Ask your average man on the street.  Chances are that if he has even heard of Orthodoxy, he'll only think of it as either Greek or Russian.

None of that actually addresses the point of whether or not churches under the Omophorion of Constantinople are run poorly or not, or canonically or not.

Quote
I'll admit that the wording is strange, but I see nothing objectionable.

Okay.  Do you refer to hierarchs in the OCA as American Despots?  Would it be okay if other hierarchs did?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 05:00:37 PM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: April 07, 2009, 05:10:24 PM »

Ok... Is anyone noticing a pattern here? The only ones really arguing against the OCA are those that are members of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese or otherwise under the Ecumenical Patriarch... The only ones really arguing for it so far are OCA...
What do other Orthodox say? (and you cannot answer for others)

The holy Greek elders of the 20th century have prophesied that Russia will conquer Constantinople.   As the Greeks feel in their bones that the inspired words of their own holy monks and priests are coming to pass they are filled with apprehension and an unarticulated anxiety.   Quite understandable that this is throwing up a lot of confused attitudes to the Slavs.   Our Greek brothers wish for the liberation of Constantinople but they tremble because of the race whom God has chosen to accomplish it. 

Do not expect such discussions to be entirely rational.   They touch on ancient and subliminal anxieties.
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« Reply #140 on: April 07, 2009, 05:15:05 PM »

I personally consider the inability to have a running seminary in one's own local diocese due to the explicit order of the ruling secular government (note, that part is italicized for a reason because I know full well not every diocese has its own seminary) and the fact that the ruling secular authority made it so within two generations or so there will probably be no acceptable candidate for Patriarch of Constantinople a "stranglehold", yes.  

Not exactly true.  The government didn't specifically shut down Halki - they made all religious schools of minority religions illegal.  But you're right at least in spirit on that point.  However, there are actually many who are/would be qualified candidates: bilingual Orthodox Christians with Turkish citizenship who live both in Turkey and in Greece (the latter group aren't usually included in "the numbers," which I'm skeptical of to begin with, but who could easily qualify).

I don't think there will be any extinction of the Patriarchate due to lack of qualified candidates for the EP office, because I think within the next generation the political climate will change, either for the better and the school will reopen and there will be more tolerance, or for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 05:15:26 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #141 on: April 07, 2009, 05:22:49 PM »

or for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.


Let the Patriarchate live and survive where it is.Shifting it elsewhere will bring about its extermination.

Source ::
http://voxstefani.blogspot.com/2007/07/further-constantinopolitan-thoughts.html

 After news like those reported in my previous post surface, it generally
doesn't take too long for someone (usually in North America) to ask why
won't the Ecumenical Patriarchate just move out of Constantinople. After all
(so the reasoning goes) the Patriarchate of Antioch is now exiled in
Damascus; why couldn't the Patriarchate of Constantinople exile itself to,
say, Patmos or Thessalonica, both of which are under its jurisdiction,
finally putting behind itself this tedious, multisecular ordeal?


Well, grasshopper, this is because the Patriarch of Constantinople is, above
all, the real Bishop of a real flock in a real city. And while this flock,
through relentless repression and brutal ethnic cleansing, has dwindled in
less than a century from a flourishing 250,000 to a mere 5,000 cornered in a
single quarter of the once glorious Queen of Cities, they should on no
account be deprived of their Bishop. If the Patriarch chose to exile
himself, the godless Turkish government would never recognize his canonical
jurisdiction over his Constantinopolitan flock (seeing how they consider him
to be the head of the Greek community strictly in Turkey); and since no
other Bishop could be named to the See, the diocese would effectively be
orphaned. Also, given the Turkish modus operandi, one can imagine that
commemorating at the Divine Services the rightful (but exiled) Patriarch
would come to be considered a criminal act on Turkish soil, and so the stage
would be set for the final extermination of the last remaining pocket of the
native Greek population of Asia Minor. May God deliver us from that day!


Now, let us add a drop of utter delusion to an otherwise sensible (if, as we
have seen, enormously misguided) thought, courtesy of the Militant
Americanist OrthodoxTM (who are to be distinguished, of course, from normal
Orthodox Americans): why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch (again, like the
Patriarch of Antioch) exile himself, but by moving to the US instead? "That
way," say they, "we get undisputed autocephaly, and even a patriarch of our
own." (I can't tell if the author of this particular comment was serious, or
seriously thought he was offering the solution to end all solutions, or
what, but I have certainly heard that thought seriously expressed more than
once.)

Well, for a start, because the New World is not a part of the historic
canonical territory of the Ecumenical Patriarchate the way Damascus is part
of that of the Patriarchate of Antioch, so the situation would not really be
analogous (as it would be, for instance, if the Ecumenical Patriarchate
moved to Patmos). But further, for Patriarch Bartholomew to be the Primate
of an Autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Americas, he would have to be the
Bishop of a local diocese in the New World, even as he now is Archbishop of
Constantinople, and thus Primate of the Autocephalous Church of
Constantinople. Now, even if there suddenly came to be a single
Autocephalous Church in the Americas, and if Patriarch Bartholomew moved to
the US and became "Archbishop of Washington and Patriarch of the New World"
or some such, this new Church would be the last in the precedence of honor
among the world's Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, and its Primate (even if
he himself had been Ecumenical Patriarch before) would be the very last to
be commemorated in the diptychs by each of the Primates of the other
Churches. Which is to say that the Primate of an Autocephalous American
Orthodox Church would not be the new primus inter pares of the Orthodox
episcopacy; pride of place would go then to the Patriarch of Alexandria. So,
is that clear enough?

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« Reply #142 on: April 07, 2009, 05:34:11 PM »

or for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.


Let the Patriarchate live and survive where it is.Shifting it elsewhere will bring about its extermination.

Hardly.  The only way he would move, based on comments and discussions I had with him and with the deacons at the Patriarchate, is if they were on the brink of extinction anyway, such as if

the political climate will change <snip> for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.
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« Reply #143 on: April 07, 2009, 05:37:10 PM »

"You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs"

Forgive me.  I have been sitting on the fence reading these threads for far to long without saying a word.  The past few weeks have seen so much bad blood fly between people that are supposed to be brothers, and it saddens me when people are calling eachother imperialists and schismatics in a time when we are supposed to be looking inward at our own failures.  

This is a time of trial for us all.  The crudstorm that has been released in the past few weeks is heartrending, but not totally unpredictable.  Eventually, it comes to this:  how do we define liberty and unity in the Orthodox Church?  

Some have defined it as a link to the old Patriarchs, particulalrly Constantinople, is what makes us Orthodox.

Some have defined it as the jurisdisction of the local Bishop as what does.

Some have defined it as strict adhearance to the cannons.  

Some have defined it as the voice of the people.


I cannot speak for any of you, but I have believed since I converted and still believe that ALL are important...and then again, that none are.

Yes, the ties to the ancient sees and BROTHERHOOD with them, not subserviance to them, makes us Orthodox.

Yes, the local Bishop is a representative of Christ to his jurisdiction, along with the clergy and laity, within the tradition, makes us Orthodox.

Yes, understanding of the cannons and their practice is venerable and WITHIN the Holy Spirits call, and with the united understanding that some cannons are for some ages, and some are eternal, makes us Orthodox.

Yes, the people, under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Sacred Scripture, and the Sacred Tradition, speaking in a united voice make us Orthodox.

But what truly make us Orthodox is FOLLOWING AND LIVING IN JESUS CHRIST AND GUIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, as the apostles taught us, wherein Saints are made, Martyrs Glorified, and new generations come to the alter to recieve Christ Jesus' Body and Blood that we migh perfect our imperfect selves.  

Mayhaps the solution I propose is one that will be unpopular, or seem oversimplistic.  I am not a great orator or analyst.  At this point, in many senses, I simply grow tired of the rehasing of old wars, as this new upheaval seems to bring on.  There have been moments when my faith in the Church has been shaken, and anger and sorrow filled my heart.  There may be yet days when this happens.  But I will be nowhere else because I believe in Jesus Christ, and I know that this is the way to worship him in the fullest.  Thats why Im here.  To better serve, and Pray.


And so, my proposal is simple.  We pray.  It may be a far stretch, but mayhaps what is needed is to ask God His opinion in His own Church, that he migh clear out imperfect minds and do what we humans are oft unwilling to: Listen.  Accept.  Be Obedient.  Love one another.  And forgive.  

In this land (US), we are Americans.  But we are all still learning what that means after all these years.  We know it means to be free, but that there is a price for freedom: Vigilance.  Elsewise, we fall back into slavery.  It is not culture, though we have our own, but common beliefs that hold us as a nation.  We hold common beliefs in Orthodoxy too.  God will conquer all with Love.  God loves us all.  We attempt to give purselves to Him fully and without reservation in our worship.  If we fall into sin, and do not get back up, we fall into slavery as well.  We must turn to Him to made, redeemed and sustains us to make things right.  For He knows everything about us.

Maybe its time for our bishops, ALL our bishops, to get together, pray, talk, and ask for forgiveness, of God and of eachother.  We've seen too many wars over jurisdictionalism.  Whatever the solition, we cannot remain as we are.  But above all, it must be God-pleasing.  Change is comeing.  And with it, a whirlwind of consequences.  Let us pray for perfect guidence from He who is Perfect.


Of course, thats just my opinion.


Forgive me, a sinner.  



        
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« Reply #144 on: April 07, 2009, 06:30:09 PM »

^ Ian Lazarus,
FYI: Someone's nominated you for Post of the Month for this post.
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« Reply #145 on: April 07, 2009, 06:32:56 PM »

^ Ian Lazarus,
FYI: Someone's nominated you for Post of the Month for this post.

I'd like to second that. 
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« Reply #146 on: April 07, 2009, 06:51:56 PM »


Sometimes you make great posts.  Sometimes you go trolling.  You should let us know which Isa we're going to experience at the beginning of the day, by PM or something, so we know whether or not we should read 'em.

Come on now: Is it necessary to resort to ad hominem attacks?
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« Reply #147 on: April 07, 2009, 06:56:41 PM »

Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...

If you can't stand the heat then don't get in the debate... or rather focus on being a catechumen and preparing to become a member of the church instead.

I don't get it. Why is it necessary to pull rank like this? What possesses folks to tell others to sit down and shut up?
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« Reply #148 on: April 07, 2009, 07:02:39 PM »

Christ appears to St. Martin.
ACCORDINGLY, at a certain period, when he had nothing except his arms and his simple military dress, in the middle of winter, a winter which had shown itself more severe than ordinary, so that the extreme cold was proving fatal to many, he happened to meet at the gate of the city of Amiens a poor man destitute of clothing. He was entreating those that passed by to have compassion upon him, but all passed the wretched man without notice, when Martin, that man full of God, recognized that a being to whom others showed no pity, was, in that respect, left to him. Yet, what should he do? He had nothing except the cloak in which he was clad, for he had already parted with the rest of his garments for similar purposes. Taking, therefore, his sword with which he was girt, he divided his cloak into two equal parts, and gave one part to the poor man, while he again clothed himself with the remainder. Upon this, some of the by-standers laughed, because he was now an unsightly object, and stood out as but partly dressed. Many, however, who were of sounder understanding, groaned deeply because they themselves had done nothing similar. They especially felt this, because, being possessed of more than Martin, they could have clothed the poor man without reducing themselves to nakedness. In the following night, when Martin had resigned himself to sleep, he had a vision of Christ arrayed in that part of his cloak with which he had clothed the poor man. He contemplated the Lord with the greatest attention, and was told to own as his the robe which he had given. Ere long, he heard Jesus saying with a clear voice to the multitude of angels standing round -- "Martin, who is still but a catechumen, clothed me with this robe."

That was very moving.  You got me a little misty with that one.  Is this St. Martin of Tours?
Yes.  A little reminder that the Western Orthodox have their superstars too.
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« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2009, 07:03:56 PM »

Actually I the original comment was meant as lighthearted banter that perhaps got taken a little more seriously than it was intended. I could be wrong.
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« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2009, 07:09:31 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

I'm grateful to you, especially because my dial-up at the end of the world is too slow to view the video.



I cut a back-room deal with ialmisry so you can thank him.  lol.   Cheesy Grin
Well, I am raised in Chicago. LOL. Grin
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« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2009, 07:13:47 PM »

Ok... Is anyone noticing a pattern here? The only ones really arguing against the OCA are those that are members of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese or otherwise under the Ecumenical Patriarch... The only ones really arguing for it so far are OCA...
What do other Orthodox say? (and you cannot answer for others)
Do I count for "other."  After all, I may have been received by the OCA, but I've never considered myself "American Orthodox."  And I haven't been in the OCA for nearly a decade, and both my children were baptized by Antiochian priests.
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« Reply #152 on: April 07, 2009, 07:18:29 PM »

Ok... Is anyone noticing a pattern here? The only ones really arguing against the OCA are those that are members of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese or otherwise under the Ecumenical Patriarch... The only ones really arguing for it so far are OCA...
What do other Orthodox say? (and you cannot answer for others)
Do I count for "other."  After all, I may have been received by the OCA, but I've never considered myself "American Orthodox."  And I haven't been in the OCA for nearly a decade, and both my children were baptized by Antiochian priests.

We'll count you as Isadox. Cheesy
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« Reply #153 on: April 07, 2009, 07:19:16 PM »

Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?

They do not; the Patriarch's caution is mostly to prevent attacks by citizen groups rather than the Government, who in the past has sanctioned the Patriarchate (by not allowing the EP or other hierarchs to return to the country), but who of late has been reluctant to do so (part of the EU quest).  "Veritable stranglehold" isn't quite right; now, yes, the government does have a number of restrictions on the Patriarchate (they can't remove, for example, many of the manuscripts from the country, as they are considered historical items of the Turkish state), and since they don't recognize the Patriarchate as an entity property ownership is restricted.  But the EP's actions as Patriarch are not so severely limited - they do not interfere with the synod's selection of hierarchs (save the EP himself), nor with the internal operation of the Patriarchate (save the election of the EP himself), nor with the operation of the Patriarchate with regards to the rest of the Orthodox world (save the election of the EP himself).

Ecumenical Patriarch?

Don't you mean the (local) Greek Patriarch of the Fener, Fener Rum Patriği?
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« Reply #154 on: April 07, 2009, 07:23:32 PM »

^ Ian Lazarus,
FYI: Someone's nominated you for Post of the Month for this post.

I'd like to second that. 
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« Reply #155 on: April 07, 2009, 07:29:13 PM »


- Freedom is not an Orthodox principle, virtue, etc.  Orthodoxy exists and thrives where it wills to, under persecution, etc.  The only time when the Church has encouraged freedom is when the people were enslaved in their own countries!  And even in a few instances, local Churches have supported war erroneously, or in a short-sighted manner.  The American desire for freedom is frequently a desire for no oversight but self-oversight - a desire that contradicts a host of Christian principles and teachings, such as obedience, humility, spiritual guidance, collective correction & oversight, etc.

I believe that you are describing a historical pattern and not a doctrinal position. What do you make of the following:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1

"31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:31-36

"20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it." 1 Corinthians 7:20-21

My point is that, while the status of our souls is infinitely more important, our civic status is not unimportant. You know the ancient Greeks introduced the idea of democracy, albeit in a limited fashion. United States of America went one better and over the years has become the ideal for the entire world. Even the Bolsheviks and the Maoists were compelled to emulate the American foundational documents. I happen to believe in American exceptionalism for various reasons that have no place in this thread. Suffice it to say that American ideals can complement Orthodox doctrine and piety. Indeed, I believe that Orthodoxy will become better when it becomes less old world and more American. As for "obedience, humility, spiritual guidance, collective correction & oversight," all of these traits were present and quite common at this nations founding. It is indeed ironic and tragic that the heterodox had them in as good measure as the Orthodox, with one significant difference: while the Heterodox Christians were free men and women in the late 18th century, almost all of Orthodox Christians were slaves or serfs.

Cleveland, you are a very good lemonade maker and you are skilled at dealing with all kinds of lemons thrown your way. At some point, I hope you will decide to move on to better things.
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« Reply #156 on: April 07, 2009, 07:33:33 PM »

Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...

If you can't stand the heat then don't get in the debate... or rather focus on being a catechumen and preparing to become a member of the church instead.

I don't get it. Why is it necessary to pull rank like this? What possesses folks to tell others to sit down and shut up?
Maybe you need to re-read my post and see that no one said "sit down and shut up." Pull rank?  A catechumen is not a member of the church, rather one studying to become a part of the church.  There is so much to learn that getting wrapped up in politics and things that take away from learning the vast amount of knowledge it takes to be ready to be received as a member of the church that sometimes it is best for catechumens to just stay out of things that could take them off that path.  Catechumen-time is a period to learn and discern the faith.  Most disheartening to any new comer is politics (ie, this thread type stuff, parish council politics, etc..) and we like to see people stay in the church.  I've seen people leave because they were new to the faith, either as catechumens, inquirers or newly illumined because they, being young in the faith were shaken by the things that distract us from the true focus of the church, Christ.
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« Reply #157 on: April 07, 2009, 07:50:37 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

From the transcript (why didn't you post it outright?)

Quote
But we also have to appreciate the English and the Spanish and the French just as we have to appreciate the Klingot and the Aleut and the Upik and the Athabasken who are the true indigenous orthodox christians of our land. 

It's not Klingot, it's Tlingit.
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« Reply #158 on: April 07, 2009, 07:50:37 PM »

The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.

This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.
 
I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".

Me too.

I found the speech kind, polite, mild and well-tempered.

Quote
...the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus

AFAIK, what is called isn't Synod, where every Orthodox bishop will be entitled to participate, than some unknown body that existed never before in Orthodoxy (but is imagined by some to pass binding decisions, as if it was possible for such a non-existent body).
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« Reply #159 on: April 07, 2009, 07:52:05 PM »

Well, I read through the transcript, and I don't find anything inaccurate or misleading. Emphasized, for sure.  Singled out, yes.  But exaggerated, not really, let alone "lying."
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« Reply #160 on: April 07, 2009, 08:10:07 PM »

I understand that catechumens ought to not focus on Church politics (as most Orthodox shouldn't), but it isn't going to shake my faith. I've been interested in Orthodoxy for over two years, and have been attending church for over one and a half years. I'm pretty set on joining, and Church politics doesn't discourage me in the least.

(Just as a note, I wasn't giving those time periods as a boast, but rather to show I've been studying and learning for a long time, and that I am really set on joining, that I would even be willing to die for Christ and his Church. Gritty and depressing politics won't change that)
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« Reply #161 on: April 07, 2009, 08:16:52 PM »

It looks as if Met. Jonah is going to lead the American Church concerning unity. Met. Phillip has obviously dropped the ball. If anyone had told me this time last year that the OCA would be leading the Church i'd have laughed my head off. God is good !
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« Reply #162 on: April 07, 2009, 08:17:46 PM »

Okay.  Do you refer to hierarchs in the OCA as American Despots?  Would it be okay if other hierarchs did?

Don't know about your region but in this part of the world we refer to our local Greek bishop as "Thespoti" and when speaking to him fact to face we address him that way too.
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« Reply #163 on: April 07, 2009, 08:23:02 PM »

A round of applause for Metropolitan Jonah!  He found a great way to distract everyone from the still real and very serious problems within the OCA. 
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« Reply #164 on: April 07, 2009, 08:31:52 PM »

Americans, rejoice!   

Your fate as a Church could well be decided on Cyprus in 3 months time.   

I suppose it will effect me too, even in far away New Zealand.   One good thing.  Our NZ Thespoti is a very good bishop.  On the down side, I see that  Constantinople wants to impose the New Calendar on us.   I expect many of us will be lining up to join Fr Anastasios.

Orthodox synod due in June and December

Invitation letters have gone out to Orthodox churches to convene a grand Pan-Orthodox Synod in Istanbul. This would be the first since 1901.
Thursday, March 12, 2009
By NAT da Polis
   
With the sending of letters of invitation to all the heads of the Orthodox Churches for the two preparatory meetings for the grand pan-Orthodox synod, scheduled for June and December of this year, Bartholomew has set in motion the decisions made at the recent pan-Orthodox meeting in October, held in Constantinople, and attended by deceased patriarch of Moscow Alexy as his last act in life.

Bartholomew has stepped up the pace for the convening of the grand synod, which has the objective of responding to all of the problems that have built up over the course of centuries, and continue to plague relations among the Orthodox Churches, with extensive repercussions for the dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics as well. The schism of 1054, with all of its grave consequences for the universal Church, also deprived the Orthodox Church of the necessary impetus and ability to be constantly present in the course of history.

In the recent past, a first initiative for the convening of a pan-Orthodox synod was undertaken by Patriarch Ioakim III in 1901. He wanted to smooth over the tensions among the autocephalous Orthodox Churches, in the conviction that only an Orthodox Church engaged in a constant and constructive inner dialogue could face the challenges of the contemporary world and act with one voice and one heart. This initiative did not succeed, in part because the Orthodox Churches, which had recently emerged from Ottoman rule, were seeking their identity in an exaggerated identification with the nation, and the full breadth of the Christian message was not instilled in their clergy.

After various mishaps, in 1961 a pan-Orthodox conference was convened in Rhodes, with significant pressure from patriarch Athenagoras, for the purpose of preparing an Orthodox synod. This conference was also followed by numerous obstacles, because as theologian Giorgos Tetsetis observes, the local Churches did not have a clear idea of what they wanted from the Synod.

Now, the letters sent for the two preparatory meetings to be held in June, in Cyprus, and in December, in a place to be determined, present the following topics:

1. The Orthodox diaspora, where the jurisdiction over the Orthodox flock beyond national borders will be defined. According to the canons now in effect, before the growth in the phenomenon of emigration the faithful outside of their home country belong to the ecumenical patriarchate.

2. The manner of recognizing the status of autocephalous Church.

3. The manner of recognizing the status of Church autonomy.

4. Dypticha, meaning the rules of mutual canonical recognition among the Orthodox Churches.

5. Establishing a common calendar for feasts. For example, some Churches celebrate the Nativity on December 25, others 10 days later.

6. Impediments and canonicity of the sacrament of matrimony.

7. The question of fasting in the contemporary world. 8. Relationships with the other Christian confessions.

9. The ecumenical movement.

10. The contribution of the Orthodox in affirming the Christian ideals of peace, fraternity, and freedom.

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« Reply #165 on: April 07, 2009, 08:37:25 PM »

Okay.  Do you refer to hierarchs in the OCA as American Despots?  Would it be okay if other hierarchs did?

Don't know about your region but in this part of the world we refer to our local Greek bishop as "Thespoti" and when speaking to him fact to face we address him that way too.

LOL. O Father, such a naughty Irishman.
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« Reply #166 on: April 07, 2009, 08:45:49 PM »

Invitation letters have gone out to Orthodox churches to convene a grand Pan-Orthodox Synod in Istanbul. This would be the first since 1901.
Thursday, March 12, 2009
By NAT da PolisNow, the letters sent for the two preparatory meetings to be held in June, in Cyprus, and in December, in a place to be determined, present the following topics:

1. The Orthodox diaspora, where the jurisdiction over the Orthodox flock beyond national borders will be defined. According to the canons now in effect, before the growth in the phenomenon of emigration the faithful outside of their home country belong to the ecumenical patriarchate.

Funny that this is the only topic the source feels the need to explain at length, and wrongly on top of that.
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« Reply #167 on: April 07, 2009, 08:55:09 PM »

On the down side, I see that  Constantinople wants to impose the New Calendar on us.

You can be of good cheer you're not in the OCA then, where it would be imposed on you as well such as happened at the Cathedral in Mayfield.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/St._John_the_Baptist_Cathedral_(Mayfield,_Pennsylvania)
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« Reply #168 on: April 07, 2009, 08:57:06 PM »

Suffice it to say that American ideals can complement Orthodox doctrine and piety. Indeed, I believe that Orthodoxy will become better when it becomes less old world and more American.

Probably so, the Russian Church especially.
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« Reply #169 on: April 07, 2009, 08:57:50 PM »

On the down side, I see that  Constantinople wants to impose the New Calendar on us.

You can be of good cheer you're not in the OCA then, where it would be imposed on you as well such as happened at the Cathedral in Mayfield.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/St._John_the_Baptist_Cathedral_(Mayfield,_Pennsylvania)

the link doesn't explain anything, just what are you talking about? please enlighten us!
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« Reply #170 on: April 07, 2009, 09:12:16 PM »

Sorry, fixed the link.
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« Reply #171 on: April 07, 2009, 09:29:17 PM »

This was recently published at the Orthodox Christians for Accountability. It may help our understanding of what is meant by conciliarity from an OCA perspective.

A Hundred Years Of A Conciliar Church

by Fr. Michael Plekon, New York NY


"We live in an extremely difficult time.If one wished to indict our ecclesial life there would be no chance for an acquittal. Indeed everyone is guilty. History knows the periods when the disorganization of ecclesial life was no worse than in our time. There was struggle, disunity, mutual accusations, slander and violence, but nevertheless there is a difference between the situation then and what we have now. Beneath that disorganization there was struggle over dogma. But in our time sheer human passion exposes itself in broad daylight without the protection of dogmatic debate. Our ecclesial life has reached a dead end, for the principles which penetrated it in the distant past have become obsolete and only continue to distort it."

("The Church of the Holy Spirit", 7)

So does Nicholas Afanasiev, the priest and theologian who recovered the “eucharistic ecclesiology” of the early church conclude the forward to his major work, The Church of the Holy Spirit. He first presented this study for the doctorate in 1950 and spent the next decade and a half, till his death in 1966, revising and enlarging it, completing as well, much of what would be a companion volume, The Limits of the Church. The Church of the Holy Spirit was only finally published posthumously, in Russian in 1971, in French in 1975 and in English in 2007. (UND Press)

Fr. Afanasiev’s vision of the church came from the many recoveries by theologians of the Paris Russian immigration, most of whom taught at St. Sergius Institute there. Of them all, he was the most insistent on the necessity of taking the history of the church seriously, given the dogma of the Incarnation and the human as well as divine aspects of the church’s existence.

In what follows I offer a response to his Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah’s thoughts about the OCA,

“A Time of Crisis and Opportunity,” with the understanding that this document was presented by him as the beginning of discussion on the future of the OCA, in particular its statute and ecclesiological shape. Afanasiev’s classic ecclesiological study was not only a serious scholarly investigation of elements lost or discarded over time from the early church. As with all of his work in the canons, in church history, liturgy, the scriptures, Afanasiev was aware of an important connection to the state of the church in his time. Those who fled the revolution and come to the west saw the church fragmented and divided into at least three jurisdictions, one of which eventually would deny churchly status to the others and to any church bodies outside its borders—thus the lively interest among so many émigré writers about the “limits” of the church.

One of the most important recoveries on Afanasiev’s part is the priesthood of all the baptized, the sense that the church is the whole people of God, that bishops, the clergy and the laity all celebrate the liturgy, do the work of Christ in the world—in short that the church is a community bound by love in the Spirit, not by law or status. Afanasiev painfully sketches the movement away from this early situation, one influenced by the development of both law and stratification within the community, principally into the ordained and the laity. It is widely recognized that in the first half of the 20th century one of the principal theological rediscoveries was that of the church as the community, the gathering or assembly of the whole of the people of God. For us in the OCA the recovery of this “conciliar” sense and shape of the church goes back earlier than Afanasiev’s work as we shall see. There is over a century of churchly experience and deliberation that is our legacy.

This reflection is offered to “put the best construction” on all things as a manifestation of Christian hope, and in the words of the American song, to “accentuate the positive.” We need this constructive outlook precisely in this time of crisis, with many issues not yet resolved. Yet it is also a time of searching for renewal, reform and possibilities, a time of hope for the future. My principal theme comes from St.Paul—namely to “hold fast to what is good…”, to stay with the OCA’s conciliar ecclesiology, which took a century to be recovered from the past and which has been pushed aside in recent decades by the OCA central administration and the synod. (I Thess. 5: 21)

The focus here is on the historical path that brought about the recovery of a conciliar vision of the church. As Fr. Schmemann noted, the church is hierarchical as well as conciliar. (Church, World, Mission, Crestwood: SVS Press, 1979) The church can be looked at in many other ways: liturgical, diaconal, pastoral, missionary, among others.

The conciliar vision of the church


This conciliar ecclesiology is an understanding of and a model for church life. It seeks to include the bishops, clergy and laity in the work and decisions of the church, respecting the different vocations of all, but also reflecting “that all were together” not only in celebrating the Eucharist but in the rest of their life and action, in the view of Acts 2: 44, as Fr.Afanasiev has observed. This conciliar way of being the church is no recent creation, but the experience and practice of the early church, as Afanasiev documents, found throughout the NT letters, the Acts of the Apostles and in the writings of early church teachers such as Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Irenaeus of Lyons, and Cyprian of Carthage.

It is possible to debate the shape and culture, the trends and urgencies of various historical periods—those of OCA autocephaly and the statute, those of the years of the metropolia before 1970, even the years of the missionary work of Sts Tikhon of America, Raphael of Brooklyn, Innocent, Herman, Yakov and Juvenaly of Alaska. Recently I heard two leaders of the OCA & GOA disagree and publicly and deeply about the origins of the Orthodox church in America in the first years of the 20th century. The historical realities of those early years are not interpreted in the same way by the OCA and the GOA. The OCA sees there a model of one church united, with respect for ethnic belonging but not consumed with this. The other point of view is that it was necessary for Greek Orthodox Christian to have their own church.

There are numerous other strong disagreements. It is no secret that the accomplishments of a Fr. Alexander Schmemann, being remembered in various conferences in this 25th year since his falling asleep, are acclaimed by some and still strongly rejected by others.

Conciliar sources

The Moscow council of 1917-18


Many of us do not know of the bishops, clergy & laity whose deliberations at the Moscow council of 1917-18 worked out the conciliar church model as a reform for the Russian church. Because of the Revolution, this model was not put into practice in Russia, but it had already been the model in the American metropolia since St. Tikhon’s days. Later it would be adopted also in the Paris exarchate under Metropolitan Evlogy, as well as in the Sourozh diocese under Metropolitan Anthony, in the churches of Finland and Japan as well.

Soon to appear in translation, Hyacinthe Destivelle’s masterful study of the Moscow council traces the decades of work and preparation that led up to the council’s convocation. His study also presents the vision of the church—the very same conciliar model we have in the OCA statute and many other proposals for a healthier church life.(Le concile de Moscou 1917-1918, Paris: Cerf, 2006)

St. Tikhon and the church of the American metropolia
The pastoral experience of St. Tikhon in the North American missionary archdiocese brought much to the work of this council. For it was St. Tikhon who asked that the all-church council in Mayfield PA in 1907 include clergy and lay members as well as the bishops. This pattern was retained in the North American metropolia thereafter, both because it was effective but also because it reflected the fullness of the church. Moreover, the same conciliar pattern that incorporated all members of the church—the bishops, clergy and laity—was reflected in the makeup of the Moscow council and found further implementation in the acts of that council—this was the result of the urging of the Russian bishops themselves, along with clergy and lay leaders and scholars. Thus it was not the conditions of a small missionary archdiocese that required the conciliar pattern, rather it was agreed to as the form for the entire Russian church by this council of 1917-18. While there was disagreement about the details of how this conciliar way of being the church should work, in the end the Moscow council arrived at a form which retained the authority of the chief pastors while also engaging the rest of the church—the clergy and laity—in the church’s work.

Given the revelations in the past three years of decades of failed church leadership, abuse, threats and cover-ups, now more than ever we need to hold on to this example of truly “living tradition” that we in the OCA have inherited from a number of important sources, a conciliar form of being the church. As noted these include Sts Tikhon and Raphael and Alexis Toth but also from their era Fr. Sebastian Dabovich, Bishop Innocent (Pustynsky), Fr. Leonid (later Metr. Leonty) Turkevich, and Frs now Sts John Kochurov and Alexander Hotovitsky.

To be continued...
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« Reply #172 on: April 07, 2009, 09:30:38 PM »

On the down side, I see that  Constantinople wants to impose the New Calendar on us.

You can be of good cheer you're not in the OCA then, where it would be imposed on you as well such as happened at the Cathedral in Mayfield.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/St._John_the_Baptist_Cathedral_(Mayfield,_Pennsylvania)

Actually, you link should make Father wish he was in PA's court jurisdiction.
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« Reply #173 on: April 07, 2009, 09:38:37 PM »

Actually the New Calendar isn't imposed in the OCA, there are parishes that don't use it.
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« Reply #174 on: April 07, 2009, 09:45:56 PM »

I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...

From the transcript (why didn't you post it outright?)

Because it was 4 pages.  I hate reading huge posts like that, so I though "talk the talk, walk the walk"

Quote
Quote
But we also have to appreciate the English and the Spanish and the French just as we have to appreciate the Klingot and the Aleut and the Upik and the Athabasken who are the true indigenous orthodox christians of our land. 

It's not Klingot, it's Tlingit.

sorry!  didn't hear it that well.  thanks for the correction.  I made it on the original.  Do you need to repost it? 
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« Reply #175 on: April 07, 2009, 10:06:04 PM »

Continuing Father Plekon's article on cociliarity from the OCA perspective:

Teachers of the St. Sergius Institute and the Paris Exarchate


Another often over looked source of this conciliar ecclesiology came to us from the experience of the exarchate based in Paris, eventually under the ecumenical patriarchate, and led by Metropolitan Evlogy, himself one of the leading participants in the movement leading up to and culminating in the Moscow council. Metr. Evlogy implemented the council reforms into the operation of the exarchate, creating a diocesan assembly as well as council with the bishops, clergy and laity all included. The St. Sergius Institute, the first Orthodox theological school in the west, was established with his blessing and the financial assistance of many outside the church most notably the America YMCA. Many of the professors at the Institute contributed to a renaissance of patristic scholarship, (Fr. Georges Florovsky) but also in liturgy and ecclesiology and dogmatic theology. The work of Frs Bulgakov, Afanasiev, Bishop Cassian (Bezobrazov), Cyprian Kern, Basil Zenkovsky, professors Kartashev, Zander, Fedotov, Zernov and philosopher Nicholas Berdiaev would shape generations of laity and clergy after them, would contribute greatly to the international liturgical and ecumenical movements, even to Vatican II, particularly to the dogmatic constitutions on the church-- Lumen gentium and Gaudium et spes.

As those studying the Paris exarchate and St. Sergius theologians—Antoine Arjakovsky, Brandon Gallaher, Rowan Williams, Hilarion Alfayev and myself-- point out, this local church effected nothing less than a rediscovery of the tradition’s dynamic nature. Whether in their articles in the journal PutTeachers of St. Vladimir’s Seminary

Finally, students of these St. Sergius teachers, principally Fathers Alexander Schmemann and John Meyendorff, also Professor Alexander Bogolepov, among others, continued their work at St. Vladimir’s Seminary and were the primary craftsmen of the statute of the OCA, formally accepted at the 1971 all-American council. (A. Bogolepov, Church Reforms in Russia 1905-1918, Metropolitan Council, 1966)

So, this conciliar ecclesiology, enshrined in the OCA statute, was the result of over a century of ecclesial experience and work, beginning with the statute developed at the Mayfield council in 1907, then the deliberation and actions of a major church council, that in Moscow in 1917-18, and followed by the deliberate implementation of that council’s conciliar ecclesiology by the American metropolia in the councils at Detroit in 1924 and New York in 1955, culminating in the OCA statute accepted at the 1971 council in South Canaan PA.

The metropolia, at the time of autocephaly, despite its being essentially an archdiocese, was actually larger in numbers than the OCA of today. For decades, this conciliar model of being the church and acting as the church produced much: mission growth, liturgical and monastic renewal, scholarly excellence and research and publications—the publications of St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press stand in witness. Perhaps more than any others stand the legacy of Frs Schmemann and Meyendorff. Confident in the conciliar shape and church heritage of the OCA statute, their writings and teaching sought to offer this not only to the other Orthodox churches but to all other Christian churches and the culture in which they lived. We have not seen any truly apostolic witness like theirs since.

The conciliar vision discarded

But this conciliar ecclesiology has not always succeeded. When set aside, as it was both on the national church and diocesan levels in the past two decades, chaos, abuse, malfeasance, denial and cover-ups ensued. In the lines that followed Afanasiev’s forward quoted at the outset:

"The Church is [then] viewed as an organization subject to human legislation and, being an organization, it exists merely to serve human needs. Human will reigns within and externally human will strives to turn God’s church into a means of attaining its goals. Perhaps never before have the faithful themselves profaned the “bride of Christ” to such a degree." (The Church of the Holy Spirit, 7)

If not the clairvoyance then the timeliness of Afanasiev is indeed striking. We have seen the crisis not only at the national level but in the dioceses. As a member of a diocese in which the two past hierarchs rejected the statute’s conciliarity in favor of domination, deceit and coercion, it was possible to see, at this more local level, what happens when the clergy and lay members of the church could not freely speak, raise questions or challenge procedures. When funds disappeared, delegates heard the diocesan bishop say there would be “no audits, no investigation…you’ll never find where the money went.” (Metropolitan Herman) Clergy and lay delegates at the diocesan assemblies of the former NY/NJ and later DC/NY archdiocese were told that no assembly or council was needed, (Archbishop Peter) that “the bishop was the church,” that he owned and controlled everything, down to “olive trees, sheep, vineyards, domestic animals,” as a canon stated. We were told there would be no questions, audits and that we should simply “get on with it for the good of the church.” The specific activities and failed leadership later identified by the SIC were originally denied by our ruling bishops, the entire matter deemed to be the “work of Satan,” and of vengeful former church employees. And if the “truth” of it all were told, our diocesan treasurer claimed, it would “destroy the church.”

So much for episcopal leadership and mutual accountability at the level of the local church. And with the conciliarity of our statute put aside, only courageous clergy and laity were willing to speak out. There was no redress, no way for the local church to consider this terrible situation openly, honestly, fully.

No guarantees for conciliarity

All of us want to see the wrongs of the past admitted and resolved. We look forward to doing the work of the Gospel in the future. We look forward to a unified church here, also to its being a witness, the yeast in the loaf, the seed planted in the field, the lamp burning so all can see its light.

There is no guarantee of conciliarity in the church. Bishop Hilarion Alfayev echoes this point, repeatedly made by Afanasiev, in a recent conference paper. There is no emperor to call councils or control out of control bishops, clergy or laity. Equally, within the church, threats of punishment are sometimes made by the very leaders who should have been accountable, trustworthy, to those they thought should be obedient to them. (This sadly happened many times over the years in the OCA, rather publicly in the last three with the revelation of the abuses.) Recent experience indicates more breaches of accountability, love and trust. A bishop can explicitly say there is no obligation to answer the questions of his flock. He can also walk away from them and the microphone, as at the recent AAC. Even the church leaders named as failing to listen or to act were allowed simply to retire or were retired or given letters of reprimand.

Either from without or from within there is no power that can make us act like a fellowship, a koinonia. As Paul Evdokimov stressed, citing the Letter to Diognetus (7: 4) from the early church, there can never be compulsion between God and his creatures, among brothers and sisters in Christ. Yet, from the very shape of the eucharistic assembly, as Fr. Afanasiev showed, we recognize it is only mutual love that has primacy (vlast’ lyubvi), not law or rank. (The Church of the Holy Spirit, 255-276) Just as at the last judgment, it is only on our love that we are judged, only to love that we are called. We see that sharing in the one Bread and Cup is the work of our common baptism, making us those sent out to work “for the life of the world.” If we are truly brothers and sisters in Christ in the church, regardless of rank, then why should we reject a statute which consistently envisions that we meet and pray, talk and decide and act together, all of us: bishops, priest, deacons, monastics, lay women and men? Rather, we should “hold fast to what is good.”


(Fr. Michael Plekon is  the associate priest at St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Wappingers Falls NY, and a Professor of Sociology/Anthropology in the Program in Religion and Culture, Baruch College of the City University of New York.)
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« Reply #176 on: April 07, 2009, 10:10:19 PM »

Actually the New Calendar isn't imposed in the OCA, there are parishes that don't use it.

Ok, outside of alaska, what parishes in in the OCA don't use the Revised Julian Calender?  Give me a list.
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« Reply #177 on: April 07, 2009, 10:26:33 PM »

Okay.  Do you refer to hierarchs in the OCA as American Despots?  Would it be okay if other hierarchs did?

Don't know about your region but in this part of the world we refer to our local Greek bishop as "Thespoti" and when speaking to him fact to face we address him that way too.

Tsk tsk.  Not using the correct title for him? Theofilestate for a bishop (auxiliary or ruling), Sevasmiotate for an Archbishop or Metropolitan who is not the head of an autocephalous Church, Makariotate for the head of an autocephalous Church, and Panagiotate for the Ecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #178 on: April 07, 2009, 10:27:21 PM »

Americans, rejoice!  

Your fate as a Church could well be decided on Cyprus in 3 months time.  

I suppose it will effect me too, even in far away New Zealand.   One good thing.  Our NZ Thespoti is a very good bishop.  On the down side, I see that  Constantinople wants to impose the New Calendar on us.   I expect many of us will be lining up to join Fr Anastasios.

From what you quoted, it looks like the calendar will be up for a vote, not "imposed."  Nice try, though.
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« Reply #179 on: April 07, 2009, 10:38:51 PM »

username!, there are parishes outside of Alaska in the OCA that don't use the Revised Julian, i'm not going to waste my time looking for them.
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