Author Topic: the church's teaching on the jews  (Read 100728 times)

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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #405 on: June 26, 2011, 04:10:02 PM »
As someone who was raised an Orthodox Jew, this issue is one of special concern to me. Although as a child, I was beaten up and called "christ killer" by Roman Catholic children, eventually, by the grace of God, I still found myself able when I was older to become a (traditional) Roman Catholic. God's grace was more powerful than the tauntings and abuses of 11 year old parochial schoolgirls!

However, in the course of a lifetime of studying this issue from all angles and sides, I have to say now, as a 51 year old woman who by the mercy of God has discovered the Orthodox Church and hopes to join it, I do believe the Scriptures seem to point to the idea of the Jewish nation as being guilty of deicide. However, my question is, did they KNOW they were crucifying the Lord of glory? I don't think so. And if they did know, why on earth would they do it?

And as someone who always took great pride in being half Italian and half Jewish, I cannot even BEGIN to tell you how it made me feel recently to watch THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST for the first time. You would have to be of my ancestries and my mindset to grasp how deeply it affected me, but to see Jewish rabbis and Roman soldiers both, united, to torture and crucify the Creator of the Universe, was more than I could bear without breaking down into tears. I felt like a double christ killer for the first time in my life, even though I realize that Christ was sent TO die, and if Romans and Jews had not done it, someone else would have.


It was at that point that I realized that my ethnic pride was nonsense when it all came down to it. What matters is that we all believe in Christ, for He has broken down the middle wall of partition between BOTH Jew and Gentile.
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #406 on: June 26, 2011, 04:13:39 PM »
So the Romans killed the prophets?

This is getting too surreal!   ;D


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No Father Ambrose, I don't think it is fair to blame Pilate and Italians for something they had far less complicity in than the presiding Jewish leadership:

Of course it was the Jews, or as you have quoted above "the Judeans" although to tell the truth I don't buy into the distinction between Jews and Judeans.

Jews and Judeans were the same. Judeans were residents of Judea. Judeans were called Jews.
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #407 on: June 26, 2011, 04:26:40 PM »
All Christan Churches have a nasty history of anti semitism.  No one is immune.  How many post schism RC saints have uttered comments like "God hates the Jews" and so forth.  It's not just something that comes from the Fathers alone, it was, until very recently everywhere.

I understand that we should try to be sympathetic to Jews and their issues, but I don't believe that we should play into the hands of exploiters by trying to erase all saints writings and holy books which contain offensive passages against Jews in them (Or anybody else for that matter).  We just need to learn to look at them from the context of the time they were written in and what was a commonly held Christian beliefs then regarding Jews.

I totally agree. As a Jew I was taught that Christianity hate Jews and has persecuted Jews...but in studying the writings of the early Church Fathers, and history in general, from BOTH sides, I get the fuller picture. No one does anything in a vacuum; if there is ill will, there is a reason for it. Christians persecuted Jews because Jews persecuted Christians first...it just went on and on throughout history like that.
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #408 on: June 26, 2011, 04:32:29 PM »
He observed the Passover. Everyone knows you eat brisket (of beef) at Passover.. Duh.

 :)  Chicken soup with matzo balls is also quite traditional.  ;)

One wonders just *why* some find the idea that Our Lord ate meat to be disagreeable/distasteful/unacceptable?  The common diet of the time and place didn't have meat every day as is more common now, but the dietary laws in the O.T. give some information, for example, and there are other sources of information.



I have read statements by St Basil the Great and also St John Chrysostom to the effect that meat eating is bad.
"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #409 on: June 26, 2011, 07:00:43 PM »
For what it's worth, Orthodoxy disagrees with the RC idea that guilt is inherited, so I'm pretty doubtful about the idea that the Orthodox church considers the descendants guilty of such things.
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Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #410 on: June 26, 2011, 07:37:55 PM »
However, my question is, did they KNOW they were crucifying the Lord of glory? I don't think so. And if they did know, why on earth would they do it?

I think Christ best explained it with the story of the vineyard and the workers.  The Owner sent His helpers to them and they persecuted them.  Then the Owner said that He would send His Son.  Surely they will accept Him.  But, when they saw Him coming, they said, here is the Heir to the land, let us kill Him and we will gain the property.  To me that didn't make sense.  How could they think that killing the Son of the Owner would get them ownership of the property?  Wouldn't the Owner find out and exact His punishment on them?  And so it was.  That to me, is the jist of the logic of the Jewish leaders.  They knew about the prophesies of the Messiah.  But, they didn't teach the people.  Jesus Christ was actually explaining the state of the Jewish leaders.  You know, from reading the Holy Bible that Christ spoke in ways that weren't direct.  But, to those who's hearts were true with God, the message was clear.  And to those leaders who heard it, it was to tell them what fate they would face, because guilt before God is also felt in the depth of our souls. 

Yes.  They knew.  Why else would they put Him to trial, at night, when it is clear by Judaic Law that trials at night are forbidden.  They wanted to hide their guilt.  I read this awhile ago, but it stuck in my mind.  I just don't remember which holy father explained it.  But, I think it was St. John Chrysostom as he addressed the subject of the Jews alot. 
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Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #411 on: June 26, 2011, 07:52:31 PM »
I totally agree. As a Jew I was taught that Christianity hate Jews and has persecuted Jews...but in studying the writings of the early Church Fathers, and history in general, from BOTH sides, I get the fuller picture. No one does anything in a vacuum; if there is ill will, there is a reason for it. Christians persecuted Jews because Jews persecuted Christians first...it just went on and on throughout history like that.

Christ did not persecute Jews and being Christian means worshipping Christ, right?  So those who were so-called "Christians" who persecuted Jews, cannot count themselves as real Christians because then it looks like Christ who is the Head of our Church would approve that.  No. Christ sacrified Himself for all His creation.  Those who were  "Christians" were not living a Christ-life.  Even St. John Chrysostom didn't "persecute", but admonished the Jewish religion because of their rejection of Christ.  He was pointing out their lies, as you, Xenia, have discovered yourself.  Are you persecuting them?  No.  But, they will point their fingers at you and call you anti-semetic.  If they haven't already.  Instead of repenting, they want to accuse others of abuse. 
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #412 on: June 26, 2011, 07:56:18 PM »
I totally agree. As a Jew I was taught that Christianity hate Jews and has persecuted Jews...but in studying the writings of the early Church Fathers, and history in general, from BOTH sides, I get the fuller picture. No one does anything in a vacuum; if there is ill will, there is a reason for it. Christians persecuted Jews because Jews persecuted Christians first...it just went on and on throughout history like that.

Christ did not persecute Jews and being Christian means worshipping Christ, right?  So those who were so-called "Christians" who persecuted Jews, cannot count themselves as real Christians because then it looks like Christ who is the Head of our Church would approve that.  No. Christ sacrified Himself for all His creation.  Those who were  "Christians" were not living a Christ-life.  Even St. John Chrysostom didn't "persecute", but admonished the Jewish religion because of their rejection of Christ.  He was pointing out their lies, as you, Xenia, have discovered yourself.  Are you persecuting them?  No.  But, they will point their fingers at you and call you anti-semetic.  If they haven't already.  Instead of repenting, they want to accuse others of abuse. 


Exactly right.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #413 on: June 26, 2011, 08:01:58 PM »
From the holy Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, one of Russia's renowned bishops before the Revolution, and after the Revolution the Head Bishop of the Russian Church in the West.  He is speaking here at the time of the pogrom in Kishinev.


Let the savage [Russian pogromists] know that they have slain future Christians who were yet in the loins of the present day Jews; let them know that they have shown themselves to be bankrupt opponents of God's providence, persecutors of a people beloved by God, even after its rejection (11:28).

How sinful is enmity against Jews, based on an ignorance of God's law, and how shall it be forgiven when it arises from abominable and disgraceful impulses. The robbers of the Jews did not do so as revenge for opposition to Christianity, rather they lusted for the property and possessions of others. Under the thin guise of zeal for the faith, they served the demon of covetousness. They resembled Judas who betrayed Christ with a kiss while blinded with the sickness of greed, but these murderers, hiding themselves behind Christ's name, killed His kinsmen according to the flesh in order to rob them.

When have we beheld such fanaticism? In Western Europe during the middle ages, heretics and Jews were shamefully executed, but not by mobs intent on robbing them.

How can one begin to teach people who stifle their own conscience and mercy, who snuff out all fear of God and, departing from the holy temple even on the bright day of Christ's Resurrection, a day dedicated to forgiveness and love, but which they rededicate to robbery and murder?

O believers in God and His Christ! Fear the Lord's judgment in behalf of His people. Fear to offend the inheritors of the promise, even though they have been renounced. We are not empowered to judge them for their unbelief; the Lord and not we will judge. We, looking upon their zeal even though it is "not according to knowledge" (Rm.10:2) would do better to contemplate their fathers: the righteous Abraham, Isaak, Jakob, Joseph and Moses, David and Samuel and Elijah, who rose to heaven still in the flesh. Look upon Isaiah who accepted voluntary death for the faith, Daniel who stopped the mouths of beasts in a lions' den, and the Maccabbee martyrs who died with joy for the hope of resurrections. Let us not beat, slay and rob people, but soften their hardness toward Christ and Christians by means of our own fulfilment of the law of God. Let us multiply our prayer, love, fasting and alms and our concern for those who are suffering, let us be zealous about the true essence of the faith; let our light so shine before people that they may glorify our heavenly father and Christ. Let us overcome unbelief and impiousness among Christians first, and then concern ourselves with the Jews, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:20-21).


***
Saint Antony Khrapovitsky not only preached against the pogroms, and attempted to influence the government to intervene, but on at least one occasion, he placed himself in the breach. While he was bishop in Volyn, a mob of pogromists was marching on the local synagogue. Metropolitan Antony drove his carriage into the path of the surging march, placing himself between the mob and the synagogue, and censured the crowd for their intended crime.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #414 on: June 26, 2011, 08:03:11 PM »
Maybe I'm being provincialist, but I tend to think "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do," applies to the Roman soldiers and to the mocking crowd but not to the Jewish leaders. They knew what they were doing, for example orchestrating a night trial, and they callously went through with it (they arguably even had a prophecy from God in John 9 to ignore/twist). Just like today the "sheeple" were just blindly following their religious and political leaders-they probably barely thought about Jesus beyond the "untouchable military Messiah" stereotype which they didn't see Him fitting.

Similarly, when they said His Blood would be on them and their children, only the leaders can be held fully accountable for that.
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #415 on: June 26, 2011, 08:03:30 PM »
The pogrom in Kishinev, which took place in 1903, was the impetus for my father's family to leave Russia to come to America. They arrived later that same year. I never knew anyone in the Orthodox Church had spoken out against it!
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #416 on: June 26, 2011, 08:05:06 PM »
Maybe I'm being provincialist, but I tend to think "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do," applies to the Roman soldiers and to the mocking crowd but not to the Jewish leaders. They knew what they were doing, for example orchestrating a night trial, and they callously went through with it (they arguably even had a prophecy from God in John 9 to ignore/twist). Just like today the "sheeple" were just blindly following their religious and political leaders-they probably barely thought about Jesus beyond the "untouchable military Messiah" stereotype which they didn't see Him fitting.

Similarly, when they said His Blood would be on them and their children, only the leaders can be held fully accountable for that.

If in fact they knew what they were doing, that is an absolutely chilling, horrible thought. I can't even wrap my mind around the concept of anyone knowing they were crucifying God Himself, and not caring. Can you even imagine? This is why I chose originally to give them the benefit of a doubt, but thinking about the facts you mentioned, I think you're right.
"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #417 on: June 26, 2011, 08:08:42 PM »
Maybe I'm being provincialist, but I tend to think "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do," applies to the Roman soldiers and to the mocking crowd but not to the Jewish leaders. They knew what they were doing, for example orchestrating a night trial, and they callously went through with it (they arguably even had a prophecy from God in John 9 to ignore/twist). Just like today the "sheeple" were just blindly following their religious and political leaders-they probably barely thought about Jesus beyond the "untouchable military Messiah" stereotype which they didn't see Him fitting.

Similarly, when they said His Blood would be on them and their children, only the leaders can be held fully accountable for that.

If in fact they knew what they were doing, that is an absolutely chilling, horrible thought. I can't even wrap my mind around the concept of anyone knowing they were crucifying God Himself, and not caring. Can you even imagine? This is why I chose originally to give them the benefit of a doubt, but thinking about the facts you mentioned, I think you're right.
I know what it's like because I've done it. I've sinned with a high hand more times than I can count  :( It is chilling, I'm chilling.

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Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #418 on: June 26, 2011, 08:33:56 PM »
Xenia,

I read your other post about wanting to concentrate on your Christian faith, but I believe that you do have a big connection to your Jewish side which compels you to bring up these questions.  So accept that as a means of understanding the fullness of yourself, because, you know, Jesus Christ was Jewish.  But, learn the true Jewish faith of the prophets who did see the coming of Jesus Christ.  I like to use the example of the catipillar and butterfly.  They are the same creature, but there is a point where there is a transformation and then the catipillar becomes a butterfly.  Two different lives.  One crawled the earth and the other soars in the air.  Why isn't it afraid of the heights since it was used to crawling on the ground and didn't know anything about the heights?  Because the transformation was by God, the Creator. That's what happened to you.  You were living by the law of the letter (the catipillar - Old Testament) and then discovered the law of the spirit (the butterfly - New Testament).  The cacoon(transformation) is the time of Christ's teachings and Resurrection.  You can look back to your older ways, but that life is done with.  Now you have a new life of higher possibilities.  The sky is higher than the ground and the spirit is higher than the physical.  See how God created this world that even analogies can provide spiritual insight?  Or perhaps it's just in my own mind. 
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #419 on: June 26, 2011, 08:44:06 PM »
Xenia,

Just to add my 2 cents...a movie that moved me was Ben Hur.  I loved to see their faith to Judaism as untouched by the corruption of their leaders and then see their transformation to believing in Christ.  Because Ben Hur showed that sensitivity and compassion.  Especially, the connection that Ben Hur had with Christ and how God's message reached his heart; those moments of realization of the truth.  And not seeing Christ's face but seeing His body and His sufferings was so moving.  I often watch it during Great Lent. 
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

Offline Volnutt

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #420 on: June 26, 2011, 08:48:27 PM »
Speaking of Ben Hur, I remember watching this really cheesy Protestant animated version. The Atonement(?) was visualized by these magic sparkly rays swirling around Christ on the Cross and they then flew out and healed Judah's mother and sister of their leprosy.  :o
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #421 on: June 26, 2011, 09:47:57 PM »
Jews and Judeans were the same. Judeans were residents of Judea. Judeans were called Jews.
Yes but in the context of the Gospels, the Judeans seem to be differentiated from other Jews such as Christ and the Apostles who were Galileans (Mark 14:17).
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #422 on: June 26, 2011, 09:55:13 PM »
Xenia,

I read your other post about wanting to concentrate on your Christian faith, but I believe that you do have a big connection to your Jewish side which compels you to bring up these questions.  So accept that as a means of understanding the fullness of yourself, because, you know, Jesus Christ was Jewish.  But, learn the true Jewish faith of the prophets who did see the coming of Jesus Christ.  I like to use the example of the catipillar and butterfly.  They are the same creature, but there is a point where there is a transformation and then the catipillar becomes a butterfly.  Two different lives.  One crawled the earth and the other soars in the air.  Why isn't it afraid of the heights since it was used to crawling on the ground and didn't know anything about the heights?  Because the transformation was by God, the Creator. That's what happened to you.  You were living by the law of the letter (the catipillar - Old Testament) and then discovered the law of the spirit (the butterfly - New Testament).  The cacoon(transformation) is the time of Christ's teachings and Resurrection.  You can look back to your older ways, but that life is done with.  Now you have a new life of higher possibilities.  The sky is higher than the ground and the spirit is higher than the physical.  See how God created this world that even analogies can provide spiritual insight?  Or perhaps it's just in my own mind.  

Joasia, That's a beautiful way of comparing it, thanks. :) And I agree.

You know, speaking of the letter of the Law vs the spirit of the Law, I honestly don't know if a Gentile Christian can fully appreciate what Christ was speaking of when He condemned the Pharisees for their minutiae regarding the Law, as well as their manmade rules which they attached to the Torah. I lived it, as a child, and also for a few years as an adult. Looking back on that when I read the Gospels now, it just hits me in the face and I can personally relate to what Christ was talking about!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 09:56:21 PM by Xenia1918 »
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Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #423 on: June 26, 2011, 10:18:30 PM »
You know, speaking of the letter of the Law vs the spirit of the Law, I honestly don't know if a Gentile Christian can fully appreciate what Christ was speaking of when He condemned the Pharisees for their minutiae regarding the Law, as well as their manmade rules which they attached to the Torah. I lived it, as a child, and also for a few years as an adult. Looking back on that when I read the Gospels now, it just hits me in the face and I can personally relate to what Christ was talking about!

Well, you kinda left me hanging there.  I certainly would like to understand the difference.  You see, this is why we want to hear more about your Judaic life.  Because it is a part of our history in the Old Testament.  We've never forgotten about Abraham, Issac and David.  But, of course you also have your Catholic life which can be address on serperate posts.  Basically, my friend, you will be busy posting alot.   :)
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

The proper activity of the intellect is to be attentive at every moment to the words of God.   (Philokalia 2: p. 308 - # 30) - St. Thalassios

Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #424 on: June 26, 2011, 11:07:50 PM »
You know, speaking of the letter of the Law vs the spirit of the Law, I honestly don't know if a Gentile Christian can fully appreciate what Christ was speaking of when He condemned the Pharisees for their minutiae regarding the Law, as well as their manmade rules which they attached to the Torah. I lived it, as a child, and also for a few years as an adult. Looking back on that when I read the Gospels now, it just hits me in the face and I can personally relate to what Christ was talking about!

Well, you kinda left me hanging there.  I certainly would like to understand the difference.  You see, this is why we want to hear more about your Judaic life.  Because it is a part of our history in the Old Testament.  We've never forgotten about Abraham, Issac and David.  But, of course you also have your Catholic life which can be address on serperate posts.  Basically, my friend, you will be busy posting alot.   :)

OK, I understand now....and I don't blame Christians for wanting that deeper understanding. Sometimes I wish I didn't have it (lol), but in reading the Gospels, I'm glad I do.

In the Orthodox Jewish community I grew up and actually still live in (my current neighborhood is a Chasidic Jewish one), there are minute regulations that cover every area of life. Most of them I always found ridiculous, such as the requirement to have separate tablecloths depending on whether one is eating meat (fleishig) or dairy (milchig). ALL of those regulations arose out of one statement in the Torah: Thous shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk". The rabbis developed MANY rules surrounding each law of the Torah (Five Books of Moses). So much so that many Jews got fed up with the rabbinical rules and gave up the entire religion (you're talking to one right here, lol). That is what Christ meant when He said to them, "You make the Word of God void by your traditions". The nitpicking, hairsplitting rabbinical rules can be seen and experienced every day in a religious Jewish community, whether it is going to a kosher butcher or visiting a religious Jew. Often they are loopholes designed to circumvent the actual Torah of God...and that is what Christ referred to also, when He said that the Torah demands that we honor father and mother, but the rabbis say that if they give a gift to the Temple that was originally for their parents, they no longer owe anything to their parents (sorry, I'm paraphrasing because I don't have my Bible handy). SO MANY TMES now, when I go out into the Jewish community I live in, and see this rabbinical mishegoss in action, I am reminded of the words of Christ. If only those religious Jews knew Whose words were going through my mind at those moments :)
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #425 on: June 26, 2011, 11:18:40 PM »
I just got out my Bible, and I'm looking at St Matthew 6:1-4, and am reminded of the fact that many Jews strive to donate large sums of money to various Jewish synagogues, camps, etc so they can have their "name in lights" so to speak....this is why you never see a Jewish organization that doesn't have a room, Torah, Aron Kodesh, Ner Tamid, recreation hall, etc dedicated to someone, with their name in BIG letters across the top of the room, hall, etc....Christ said not to do your charity before others, but to do in secret.

I recently heard a speech locally by a rebbetzin (rabbi's wife), and she was discussing Judaism's belief in tsa'ar baalei chayim (kindness to animals)....she commented that even if we see an enemy's animal injured or in a pit on the Sabbath, Jews are obligated to help rescue the animal. I remembered when Christ referenced that very same belief when the Pharisees condemned Him for healing a woman on the Sabbath!
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #426 on: June 26, 2011, 11:23:30 PM »
Oh, I'm on a roll now... ;D I just noticed St Matthew 23:6: "And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues". I once attended services as a visitor in a very wealthy Sephardic Orthodox Synagogue, and was asked to switch seats because I had accidentally sat in the front seat of a wealthy big contributor to the synagogue (I had not noticed her name engraved on a brass plate on the back of the seat, ahem.) Evidently they were doing it back in Christ's time too!
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Offline Philoumenos

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #427 on: June 27, 2011, 01:00:08 AM »

I recently heard a speech locally by a rebbetzin (rabbi's wife), and she was discussing Judaism's belief in tsa'ar baalei chayim (kindness to animals)....she commented that even if we see an enemy's animal injured or in a pit on the Sabbath, Jews are obligated to help rescue the animal. I remembered when Christ referenced that very same belief when the Pharisees condemned Him for healing a woman on the Sabbath!

That' funny. "Jews are obligated to help rescue the animal".

Well, it's very nice that they care for animals... But what about other people?

What about non Jews?

Can you verify that these quotations are accurate?

In Choschen Hamm. (425, 5) it says:

"If you see a heretic, who does not believe in the Torah, fall into a well in which there is a ladder, hurry at once and take it away and say to him 'I have to go and take my son down from a roof; I will bring the ladder back to you at once' or something else. The Kuthaei, however, who are not our enemies, who take care of the sheep of the Israelites, are not to be killed directly, but they must not be saved from death."

And in Iore Dea (158, 1) it says:

"The Akum who are not enemies of ours must not be killed directly, nevertheless they must not be saved from danger of death. For example, if you see one of them fall into the sea, do not pull him out unless he promises to give you money."

Maimonides, in Hilkhoth Akum (X, 1) says:

"Do not have pity for them, for it is said (Deuter. VII, 2): Show no mercy unto them. Therefore, if you see an Akum in difficulty or drowning, do not go to his help. And if he is in danger of death, do not save him from death."

In the Abhodah Zarah (26b) it says:

"Heretics, traitors and apostates are to be thrown into a well and not rescued."

And apparently I'm not supposed to know this?

In Sanhedrin (59a) it says:

"Rabbi Jochanan says: A Goy (non Jew) who pries into the Law is guilty to death."

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm
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Offline stanley123

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #428 on: June 27, 2011, 01:05:47 AM »
And in Iore Dea (158, 1) it says:

"The Akum who are not enemies of ours must not be killed directly, nevertheless they must not be saved from danger of death. For example, if you see one of them fall into the sea, do not pull him out unless he promises to give you money."
How much money do you have to pay to the Jew for this?

Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #429 on: June 27, 2011, 01:14:44 AM »
I think we should focus on the Scriptures and not make light-hearted comments.  Personally, I take this subject seriously. So take your jokes elsewhere Philomenos and Stanley.
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #430 on: June 27, 2011, 08:37:06 AM »
The only quote I know for a fact is correct is the last one, from Sanhedrin, about a Gentile deserving the death penalty if he studies the Talmud (Orthodox Jews use the term "Torah" to mean BOTH the Five Books of Moses and the oral law, or Talmud.) But that passage actually only means the Talmud.

The other quotes I have seen on antisemitic websites online; in fact the misspelling of the names of the Talmudic folios always lets me know where they got the quotes from. I strongly dislike the Talmud and always have for various reasons: I was always a bit of a Karaite in my heart even when I was a religious Jew (Karaites are Jews who reject the Talmud and accept only the Five Books of Moses)....now as a Christian I see the Talmud as the primary factor as to why Jews do not accept Christ. But I think we need to be honest too....those passages do not sound familiar to me at all as being from the Talmud, and I have studied it.
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Offline joasia

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #431 on: June 27, 2011, 06:36:39 PM »
Stanley and Philoumenos, my apologizes for my comment.  It was late and my brain wasn't working.  I misunderstood your comments.  So sorry.
Stillness,  prayer, love and self-control are a four-horsed chariot bearing the intellect to Heaven. (Philokalia 2: p.308 - #24) - St. Thalassios

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Offline stanley123

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #432 on: June 28, 2011, 02:10:32 AM »
Stanley and Philoumenos, my apologizes for my comment.  It was late and my brain wasn't working.  I misunderstood your comments.  So sorry.
Actually, it is wrong to make jokes like that on a serious matter. So it should be me who apologises to you. Perhaps the passage was not to be taken literally, but in a figurative sense of being careful when dealing with people who do not respect your beliefs.

Offline Philoumenos

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #433 on: June 28, 2011, 04:13:37 AM »
I wasn't joking.
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #434 on: November 04, 2011, 04:46:30 PM »
I never heard that one before that "the jews knew they were condemning the Son of God" . If they did what was in their minds?What did they thought?Weren`t they afraid of God?
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #435 on: November 04, 2011, 04:57:15 PM »
"...and I believe in the ressurection of the thread......."

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #436 on: November 05, 2011, 12:43:05 AM »
"...and I believe in the ressurection of the thread......."

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Offline pasadi97

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #437 on: November 05, 2011, 02:30:59 AM »
This is a hard one. Jews condemned Jesus and a roman soldier Cornelius put the actual spear into Jesus.

Jews are going even today in sheol even if they had remorse.
Cornelius is a Saint believed to be in Heaven.

One difference, Cornelius was baptised thus able to enter Heaven see: John 3:3 John 3:5.

Remorse does not help, ashes on head does not help, going into sack does not help, decreeing 10 national memorial days does not help, baptism helps since baptism opens the way to heaven.

Once Jews get baptised thus children of God, whatever was before I believe is erased.
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #438 on: November 05, 2011, 04:26:50 AM »
Jews are going even today in sheol even if they had remorse.


Did the Sanhedrin act correctly, faithfully carrying out the law given to Israel by God through Moses?    This requires the death sentence for false prophets and blasphemy.  For example, Deuteronomy 18:20.

Our Saviour was, in the eyes of the High Priest and Sanhedrin, merely one of not a few false prophets who were common in Israel at that period.   They were regularly put to death even as the Lord was, after a trial before the Sanhedrin and then a Roman execution.  It is true that the charges of blasphemy brought against the Lord and which ensured His death were false, but the Sanhedrin was obliged (by God, through the divine revelation of Scripture) to apply the death penalty for blasphemy.
 

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #439 on: November 05, 2011, 08:04:12 AM »
Jews are going even today in sheol even if they had remorse.


Did the Sanhedrin act correctly, faithfully carrying out the law given to Israel by God through Moses?    This requires the death sentence for false prophets and blasphemy.  For example, Deuteronomy 18:20.

Our Saviour was, in the eyes of the High Priest and Sanhedrin, merely one of not a few false prophets who were common in Israel at that period.   They were regularly put to death even as the Lord was, after a trial before the Sanhedrin and then a Roman execution.  It is true that the charges of blasphemy brought against the Lord and which ensured His death were false, but the Sanhedrin was obliged (by God, through the divine revelation of Scripture) to apply the death penalty for blasphemy.
 


So they didn`t knew that he was the Son of God as some of the posters here asserted?
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #440 on: November 05, 2011, 11:48:47 AM »
Well, we don't discuss what people did then when they had several hot potatoes in their hands and threw them on the ground.
The problem is that the throwing of hot potatoes was considered as great judgement and is not revisited. It will be revisited when people of Judaism will come back to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, true "Judaism" of today. Judaism was not something supposed to be static, it was supposed to move to something else, new Law Jeremiah 31:33 I believe, it was supposed to move to eastern orthodox Church that makes people sons of God, opens the Heaven and gives back immortality.

People did not realize that adding new books means new religion and therefore there is nowhere to find today Old Judaism since people of Judaism addopted 2 new books. These books where necessity because you can not go in meeting and say, don't become EOC and then lets read from Tanakh and there saying, there will be dare repercussions from God from not becoming Christians.

Anyhow Baptism erases ALL sins including past whatever you want and this is the WAY to erase the grievances of everyone not baptized and AGAIN ashes on head do not help, neither walking is sacks and so on....being baptized will make the angel on the gate of HEaven let you in everything else possibly no.......
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:59:45 AM by pasadi97 »
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #441 on: November 05, 2011, 11:59:15 AM »
When God said baptism erases ALL sins, he meant it. Cornelius sins were erased so he is in Heaven.
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #442 on: November 05, 2011, 12:22:42 PM »
Jews are going even today in sheol even if they had remorse.


Did the Sanhedrin act correctly, faithfully carrying out the law given to Israel by God through Moses?    This requires the death sentence for false prophets and blasphemy.  For example, Deuteronomy 18:20.

Our Saviour was, in the eyes of the High Priest and Sanhedrin, merely one of not a few false prophets who were common in Israel at that period.   They were regularly put to death even as the Lord was, after a trial before the Sanhedrin and then a Roman execution.  It is true that the charges of blasphemy brought against the Lord and which ensured His death were false, but the Sanhedrin was obliged (by God, through the divine revelation of Scripture) to apply the death penalty for blasphemy.
 


So they didn`t knew that he was the Son of God as some of the posters here asserted?

There had been other false prophets, as Irish Hermit has written, and the OT had instructions on what to do with them.  How would they have *known* for sure that Jesus was the Son of God especially when that is beyond the pale for a faithful Jewish person.  I myself have had a discussion with a Jewish person of my acquaintance in which he brought up the passage about false prophets.  They do not believe that He is the Messiah so they do not follow Him.  It's not a matter of *really knowing* and not going along due to some evil or stubbornness etc.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #443 on: November 05, 2011, 12:25:33 PM »
Well, we don't discuss what people did then when they had several hot potatoes in their hands and threw them on the ground.
The problem is that the throwing of hot potatoes

Would you please explain what "hot potatoes" in particular you are referring to?  Thank you.


Quote
People did not realize that adding new books means new religion and therefore there is nowhere to find today Old Judaism since people of Judaism addopted 2 new books.

What "2 new books" are you talking about please?


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Offline bogdan

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #444 on: November 05, 2011, 12:58:20 PM »
There had been other false prophets, as Irish Hermit has written, and the OT had instructions on what to do with them.  How would they have *known* for sure that Jesus was the Son of God especially when that is beyond the pale for a faithful Jewish person.  I myself have had a discussion with a Jewish person of my acquaintance in which he brought up the passage about false prophets.  They do not believe that He is the Messiah so they do not follow Him.  It's not a matter of *really knowing* and not going along due to some evil or stubbornness etc.

The Jews should have known Jesus was the Messiah because the Prophets were given to them for that very reason. And many Jews did know, and have come to know.

The real story happens after the crucifixion. Of the hundreds of false messiahs, how many of them raised from the dead? How many of their cults survived—and indeed thrived—after they were executed? Only one.

I have no doubt that the Sanhedrin sowed hardheartedness among the Jews about Christ, and suppressed the truth over the centuries, but I personally reject the notion that the Jewish religion in general (to say nothing of individual Jews, as I do not know any) has plausible deniability when it comes to Christ as their messiah.

This is what the Lord says to the Jews: O my people, what have I done to you? In what have I wearied you? I gave light to your blind; I raised up the man who was paralyzed. O my people, what have I done to you? And how have you repaid me? Instead of manna you have given me gall, instead of water vinegar; instead of loving me you nailed me on the Cross. I can endure no more. I will call my gentiles, and they will glorify me with the Father and the Spirit, and I will grant them eternal life. — Stichos from the Sixth Royal Hour of Holy Friday

Offline pasadi97

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #445 on: November 05, 2011, 01:35:41 PM »
Hot potatoes:
Roman occupation of Judaea,
Romans wanting to put an eagle on a temple.
Judaic revolution against romans

So attention was on these issues so when Word of God came, not much taught and attention was accorded. Also Passover closenest put a great pressure on giving a verdict without proper thinking.

The 2 books are Talmud that contains human teachings and Kaballah that some sites put it at sorcery. Usually sorcery gives big illnesses, untimely deaths and many more plagues that appear to be true among followers of Kabalalh and asking lions to dwell among people make many victims however sorcery asks for sick beings much more dangerous to come and thus this is why the death, ilness and other calamities however the biggest calamities is becoming beggar in after life since sick angels do not have power to give even a glass of water in after life. I believe that these two books created a new religion that we today know as Judaism.

"In the Old Testament, many Israelites lost their battle with Eastern mysticism. They blended Eastern mysticism with the teachings of the Torah. The metamorphosis of this is the Kabbalah". Sheldon Smith, Secrets Of The Kaballah, a Video Documentary, Part One, 2001.

So Old Judaism had 2 new religions sprung from it. Which one is true? Jeremiah 31:33 tell that the one truie is the one with the new covenant and this is true in Eastern Orthodoxy.

How can Judaics would be able to know that Word of God will come:
year and place of Birth were known in Tanaks and book of Adam and Eve, year 5500 from Creation and place Bethleem, however again Roman occupation that was allowed by God put attention on another issues.

Well, we don't discuss what people did then when they had several hot potatoes in their hands and threw them on the ground.
The problem is that the throwing of hot potatoes

Would you please explain what "hot potatoes" in particular you are referring to?  Thank you.


Quote
People did not realize that adding new books means new religion and therefore there is nowhere to find today Old Judaism since people of Judaism addopted 2 new books.

What "2 new books" are you talking about please?



« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 01:55:46 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #446 on: November 05, 2011, 01:53:48 PM »
Hot potatoes:
Roman occupation of Judaea,
Romans wanting to put an eagle on a temple.
Judaic revolution against romans

So attention was on these issues so when Word of God came, not much taught and attention was accorded. Also Passover closenest put a great pressure on giving a verdict without proper thinking.

The 2 books are Talmud that contains human teachings and Kaballah that some sites put it at sorcery. Usually sorcery gives big illnesses, untimely deaths and many more plagues that appear to be true among followers of Kabalalh.   I believe that these two books created a new religion that we today know as Judaism.

So Old Judaism had 2 new religions sprung from it. Which one is true? Jeremiah 31:33 tell that the one truie is the one with the new covenant and this is true in Eastern Orthodoxy.

How can Judaics would be able to know that Word of God will come:
year and place of Birth were known in Tanaks and book of Adam and Eve, year 5500 from Creation and place Bethleem, however again Roman occupation that was allowed by God put attention on another issues.

Well, we don't discuss what people did then when they had several hot potatoes in their hands and threw them on the ground.
The problem is that the throwing of hot potatoes

Would you please explain what "hot potatoes" in particular you are referring to?  Thank you.


Quote
People did not realize that adding new books means new religion and therefore there is nowhere to find today Old Judaism since people of Judaism addopted 2 new books.

What "2 new books" are you talking about please?




pasadi I know I suffer from insomnia and it plays with my thinking,so if you can explain a bit more of what you are saying here that be great. start from the hot potatoes if you please.
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #447 on: November 05, 2011, 02:35:35 PM »
Ok, I will do it with the hope that people will not become beggars in after life, will get baptized thus able to enter heaven again. I will not tell everything however to get an idea I believe is enough. If you want everything including dirty clothes ask God for everything.

This tells what beggar in after life means for example dwelling in the Hades or Sheol or Hell without house, water and such however with thirstiness and hunger and such in my understanding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw

Baptized people can have houses in heaven will be happy forever aned have many good things including palaces like this in heaven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRMl_skX9ak

By Bob's words, Boss if I get to wipe the floors and to wash dishes to get my salary I will do that. Us, God if we have to be baptized to get to heaven and to give to poor to have our palace there , this is what we will do.

So let's start with beginning. The true begin is that God knows all the truth. So ask God to be your religion teacher through prayer and to let you know the truth about all religions as is seen by him. So I did this and this what is my understanding. However take it as my understanding .

1.Adam and Eve were with God in Heaven, immortals and there was no religion.
2.Sick angel was put to worship Adam and Eve because they were in the image and likeness of God and he rebelled thus was expelled from heaven. He helped adam and Eve bite from interdicted fruit and death and expulsion from heaven entered world.

Adam was sorry and he had 40 days not eating anything asking God to reconsider punishment and God promised to send Word of God that will take name of Jesus after taking human nature. The year was 5500 .

Then you can read: Book of Adam and Eve, book of Enoch, treasury of Caves and so on..... I will not go into details.

3.Abraham came and gave his son to God. So God had his own people. Word of God that is Jesus previous name promised Abraham to have many sons like number of stars  When he came in year 0. Jesus named jews as My Own since their are the children of his promise to Abraham:
Genesis 15:1 says that WORD OF GOD came to Abraham the same Word of God from book of Adam and Eve that is Jesus.Zechariah 12 is Jesus Zechariah 12:1 tells about Jesus crucifixion and return of Judaism to truth Zechariah 12:10.

4.God's people became a nation, remember we speak about God's people not children. People were children of Adam and Eve at that time . Jews were people of God , given to God by Abraham. They were people of God , children of Adam and Eve and as children of Adam and Eve they were bound by death and not able to reenter Heaven.

5. Moses came and God made a covenant . The covenant had some rules . Who does the rules is blessed whomever does not the rules is cursed, a terrifying curse.

6. People of God became a nation thus God was able to come to his people.

7. Jesus came to his people to fulfill the law which he did. This is why he was circumcised and such. Not because Christianity is Judaism however because after fulfilling the Law Jesus will be able to bring the new Covenant between him and God.

8.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 03:08:53 PM by pasadi97 »
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #448 on: November 05, 2011, 02:55:20 PM »
dear pasadi thank you for your explanation, I think the sick angel was  sick already because he refused to worship God and not Adam and Eve in paradise, although Islam says that's how the angel got sick and got kicked out of heaven.

I am glad you found the true religion.

Many years!
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #449 on: November 05, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »
TIME OUT:
Until 5500 Holy Spirit was not sent to people, so people with exception of Enoch and Elijah went to a bad state in Hades, Sheol and such. Until 5500 probably no baptism so probably Heaven doors were closed and St John Chrysostom says.

On Pentecost day the Holy spirit came on the heads of Apostles. So the Church was born . the work of Christian Church is mostly in the spirit world.It has baptism that is God coming and making people die as children of Adam and Eve and being born as children of God. This is why Christians can call God as FATHER as in OUT FATHER prayer.

So without baptism , islam, judaism, hinduism, yoga, rei ki , tai ki are children of Adam  and Eve  not able to enter Heaven because of angel at the doors .
With baptism, Christians are children of God , have a new nature being born from God so children of God have no interdiction of entering heaven and this is why Christians are allowed to Heaven.

All religions beside Christianity have not detailed how the interdiction to eneter Hevane was lifted not offersing a solution and many recognize that all of their people became beggars in after klief like for example judaism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
"Sheol (play /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."

Read this: "all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life" that is Moses law is powerless in giving entrance to heaven .
Read also : http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html about hindu near death experience.

Most non christian religions make clear plain that all their people go to Hades, Sheol and such.

How can you test that?
Go to a hospital and listen to what people say after they come from coma. Islam, hindus and such tell that they came from Hell, only baptized people tell of coming from heaven. This is such an important thing that people will not lie and maybe nobody will trust a religion that puts him to lie.



« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 03:43:50 PM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.