Author Topic: the church's teaching on the jews  (Read 96825 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #225 on: June 17, 2009, 03:56:31 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #226 on: June 17, 2009, 07:54:54 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

We're Anti-Zionists, then again again 99.999999% of the Jews are Zionists so..take your clue from that.

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 07:59:26 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #227 on: June 17, 2009, 07:56:10 PM »
The last I knew, Madeleine Albright was Episcopalian.  Her parents had converted to RC before they left Czechoslovakia.  The lady became Episcopalian later in life and said that she didn't know for some time that she had Jewish ancestry.  So her faith is Christian. 

And Yet she took part in ravaging and raping a fellow Christian Country. 

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #228 on: June 17, 2009, 07:59:44 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

We're Anti-Zionists, then again again 99.999999% of the Jews are Zionists so..take your clue from that.

Actually, no.  The Zionist lobby would like you to think they have the whole of Jewry, but no, it is far from.  They are whole communities in Jerusalem itself who refuse to recognize the Zionist state.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #229 on: June 17, 2009, 08:01:38 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

We're Anti-Zionists, then again again 99.999999% of the Jews are Zionists so..take your clue from that.

Actually, no.  The Zionist lobby would like you to think they have the whole of Jewry, but no, it is far from.  They are whole communities in Jerusalem itself who refuse to recognize the Zionist state.

The only one I know is Neturei Karta, and they have my respect. At least they come out for the Palestinians and Rally with them in my Experiences in New York during the Rape on Gaza.

And Why are they still inthe Zionist state? Shouldn't they come back to Brooklyn?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 08:07:25 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #230 on: June 17, 2009, 08:33:05 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

We're Anti-Zionists, then again again 99.999999% of the Jews are Zionists so..take your clue from that.

Actually, no.  The Zionist lobby would like you to think they have the whole of Jewry, but no, it is far from.  They are whole communities in Jerusalem itself who refuse to recognize the Zionist state.

The only one I know is Neturei Karta, and they have my respect. At least they come out for the Palestinians and Rally with them in my Experiences in New York during the Rape on Gaza.

And Why are they still inthe Zionist state? Shouldn't they come back to Brooklyn?

For one thing (actually two) a) they've never been in Brooklyn, b) there presence in Jerusalem and Palestine predates '48.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #231 on: June 17, 2009, 08:41:32 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

We're Anti-Zionists, then again again 99.999999% of the Jews are Zionists so..take your clue from that.

Actually, no.  The Zionist lobby would like you to think they have the whole of Jewry, but no, it is far from.  They are whole communities in Jerusalem itself who refuse to recognize the Zionist state.

The only one I know is Neturei Karta, and they have my respect. At least they come out for the Palestinians and Rally with them in my Experiences in New York during the Rape on Gaza.

And Why are they still inthe Zionist state? Shouldn't they come back to Brooklyn?

For one thing (actually two) a) they've never been in Brooklyn, b) there presence in Jerusalem and Palestine predates '48.

The Mizrahim? But aren't they also discriminated against by European Ashkenazi-Judeo-Zionists?

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #232 on: June 17, 2009, 08:57:43 PM »
Tonight is the first time that I was exposed to the OP. It will be the last time.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #233 on: June 17, 2009, 09:54:37 PM »
get rid of your bigotry...have you read Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?? Are you mad or bad?

Read them both. Quite informative. The Protocols are being put in effect today.

I take it that the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists are part of the Church, so what is your official position on the Jews?

We're Anti-Zionists, then again again 99.999999% of the Jews are Zionists so..take your clue from that.

Actually, no.  The Zionist lobby would like you to think they have the whole of Jewry, but no, it is far from.  They are whole communities in Jerusalem itself who refuse to recognize the Zionist state.

The only one I know is Neturei Karta, and they have my respect. At least they come out for the Palestinians and Rally with them in my Experiences in New York during the Rape on Gaza.

And Why are they still inthe Zionist state? Shouldn't they come back to Brooklyn?

For one thing (actually two) a) they've never been in Brooklyn, b) there presence in Jerusalem and Palestine predates '48.

The Mizrahim? But aren't they also discriminated against by European Ashkenazi-Judeo-Zionists?

Yes, they are, but, No, I am not talking about them, although there have always been Mirzahim there, I'm talking about the Yiddish speaking Ashkenzi communities, of which there are many.  Ben Yehudah, the reviver of Hebrew, was one of them.  Although Zionist, he immigrated to Palestine in 1881, and legally.  So fair enough. His newspapers, however, were closed down by his communities complaints: they were opposed to secularizing the language of the Tanakh.  He died before the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate went into effect.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yqKUcnKZOIgC&dq=Palestinian+Yiddish&q=Ashkenazic&pgis=1

There have been Ashkenazim Yiddish speakers in Palestine since the Old Yiddish Period: the German Arnold von Harff traveled to Palestine in 1496-99 and recorded vocabulary items in the Yiddish spoken there then.  A 14th cent. manuscript of a Yiddish epic was found in the Cairo Genizah: in the 14th century Palestine was under Egyptian control.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #234 on: June 17, 2009, 09:58:25 PM »
The collective responsibility of the Jews derives from the curse which the Jewish crowd called down upon themselves 'His blood be upon us and our children'. The Church takes this curse seriously, and hence all Jews born into the world do in fact inherit this curse, this special mark of shame for what their ancestors did to Christ. In a similar manner, after Adam's sin, God cursed all of human nature, so that every man or woman born after him inherits the curse of sin and death. In both cases, there is an element of injustice. Although none of us are personally responsible for what Adam did, we still inherit his sin. Likewise, even if the Jews today are not personally responsible for Christ's death, they inherit the sin of their ancestors.

So God listens to the curses of a mob of Jews (and how do they represent all Jews?) over listening to His Son on the Cross "Father, forgive them."

That is beyond stupid.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #235 on: June 17, 2009, 10:34:17 PM »
The last I knew, Madeleine Albright was Episcopalian.  Her parents had converted to RC before they left Czechoslovakia.  The lady became Episcopalian later in life and said that she didn't know for some time that she had Jewish ancestry.  So her faith is Christian. 

And Yet she took part in ravaging and raping a fellow Christian Country. 

Yet was she originally mentioned because of some genetic background and is that what is the definition of "Jewish" or is it religious practice and belief, in which case, Ms. Albright is not Jewish and therefore not germane to the discussion
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #236 on: June 18, 2009, 12:55:14 AM »
...BUT JESUS WAS A JEW.
“ON THAT OLD JEWISH AND PROTESTANT EXCUSE”


The Lord Jesus Christ lived on Earth as a Judaean ...in that He was a member of the tribe of Judah

Dear sdcheung,

I made an enquiry earlier but you have not responded.

Pliate placed the charge for which Jesus was crucified over His sacred head...


Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum

ישוע הנצרי ומלך היהודים (Yeshua haNasri umelek hayehudim)

Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος ὁ Bασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων



I would like to ask you to clarify because your thinking interests me on this point.

Was the Saviour executed because He claimed to be:


1.  King of the Jews ?

or

2.  King of the Judeans ?


Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #237 on: June 18, 2009, 12:59:24 AM »
...BUT JESUS WAS A JEW.
“ON THAT OLD JEWISH AND PROTESTANT EXCUSE”


The Lord Jesus Christ lived on Earth as a Judaean ...in that He was a member of the tribe of Judah

Dear sdcheung,

I made an enquiry earlier but you have not responded.

Pliate placed the charge for which Jesus was crucified over His sacred head...


Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum

ישוע הנצרי ומלך היהודים (Yeshua haNasri umelek hayehudim)

Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος ὁ Bασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων



I would like to ask you to clarify because your thinking interests me on this point.

Was the Saviour executed because He claimed to be:


1.  King of the Jews ?

or

2.  King of the Judeans ?



That would be number 2
As there were no "jews" at the time

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #238 on: June 18, 2009, 01:02:17 AM »
The last I knew, Madeleine Albright was Episcopalian.  Her parents had converted to RC before they left Czechoslovakia.  The lady became Episcopalian later in life and said that she didn't know for some time that she had Jewish ancestry.  So her faith is Christian. 

And Yet she took part in ravaging and raping a fellow Christian Country. 

Yet was she originally mentioned because of some genetic background and is that what is the definition of "Jewish" or is it religious practice and belief, in which case, Ms. Albright is not Jewish and therefore not germane to the discussion


Her backbiting warped mentallity, and her "repayment" tot he serbs for harboring her family, makes her a jew.
aka. Typical Jewish Behavior (TJB)

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2009, 01:05:04 AM »
Typical Jewish Behavior (TJB)

You are too cute!

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #240 on: June 18, 2009, 01:14:55 AM »
Typical Jewish Behavior (TJB)

You are too cute!

if you like that..
then try this on...

"Those nice Folks next door"
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:15:11 AM by sdcheung »

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #241 on: June 18, 2009, 01:19:35 AM »
"Those nice Folks next door"

That one went totally over my head.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #242 on: June 18, 2009, 01:21:27 AM »
"Those nice Folks next door"

That one went totally over my head.

google it with "David Irving"

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #243 on: June 18, 2009, 01:32:11 AM »

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).


You may have adopted the wrong Fatherland.   According to the prophecies of the holy Greek Elder Paisios it will be the Russians who come down from the North, conquer Istanbul, and reestablish some form of the Empire.   In the process there will be dreadful wars and the Elder Paisios revealed that one third of the Greeks will be killed.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #244 on: June 18, 2009, 01:33:37 AM »

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).


You may have adopted the wrong Fatherland.   According to the prophecies of the holy Greek Elder Paisios it will be the Russians who come down from the North, conquer Istanbul, and reestablish some form of the Empire.   In the process there will be dreadful wars and the Elder Paisios revealed that one third of the Greeks will be killed.

Forget elder Paisios.

try Saint Kosmas Aitolos.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #245 on: June 18, 2009, 01:48:01 AM »

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).


You may have adopted the wrong Fatherland.   According to the prophecies of the holy Greek Elder Paisios it will be the Russians who come down from the North, conquer Istanbul, and reestablish some form of the Empire.   In the process there will be dreadful wars and the Elder Paisios revealed that one third of the Greeks will be killed.

Forget elder Paisios.

try Saint Kosmas Aitolos.

If you search the forum you will find that the Greeks take the prophecies of Elder Paisios very seriously.  Google his name with ozgeorge as the author. You ought to be aware of this if Greece is your adopted Fatherland.

You and all the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists would be better to migrate to Russia, take out Russian citizenship and join the Russian Armed Forces.  That way you will have a chance to fight alongside the Russians when they take Istanbul and establish a Christian Empire again.   Much more heroic than cowering at home in a Greek village and waiting to be slaughtered with 1/3 of the Greeks as prophesied.   Much more valiant than sitting on the sidelines in America.  Seize the moment!

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #246 on: June 18, 2009, 02:02:17 AM »

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).


You may have adopted the wrong Fatherland.   According to the prophecies of the holy Greek Elder Paisios it will be the Russians who come down from the North, conquer Istanbul, and reestablish some form of the Empire.   In the process there will be dreadful wars and the Elder Paisios revealed that one third of the Greeks will be killed.

Forget elder Paisios.

try Saint Kosmas Aitolos.

If you search the forum you will find that the Greeks take the prophecies of Elder Paisios very seriously.  Google his name with ozgeorge as the author. You ought to be aware of this if Greece is your adopted Fatherland.

You and all the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists would be better to migrate to Russia, take out Russian citizenship and join the Russian Armed Forces.  That way you will have a chance to fight alongside the Russians when they take Istanbul and establish a Christian Empire again.   Much more heroic than cowering at home in a Greek village and waiting to be slaughtered with 1/3 of the Greeks as prophesied.   Much more valiant than sitting on the sidelines in America.  Seize the moment!

If I had known elder Paisios was like that I would think that he was KGB.
Sorry, I don't like Borscht. The North is too cold.


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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #247 on: June 18, 2009, 02:18:09 AM »

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).


You may have adopted the wrong Fatherland.   According to the prophecies of the holy Greek Elder Paisios it will be the Russians who come down from the North, conquer Istanbul, and reestablish some form of the Empire.   In the process there will be dreadful wars and the Elder Paisios revealed that one third of the Greeks will be killed.

Forget elder Paisios.

try Saint Kosmas Aitolos.

If you search the forum you will find that the Greeks take the prophecies of Elder Paisios very seriously.  Google his name with ozgeorge as the author. You ought to be aware of this if Greece is your adopted Fatherland.

You and all the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists would be better to migrate to Russia, take out Russian citizenship and join the Russian Armed Forces.  That way you will have a chance to fight alongside the Russians when they take Istanbul and establish a Christian Empire again.   Much more heroic than cowering at home in a Greek village and waiting to be slaughtered with 1/3 of the Greeks as prophesied.   Much more valiant than sitting on the sidelines in America.  Seize the moment!

If I had known elder Paisios was like that I would think that he was KGB.
Sorry, I don't like Borscht. The North is too cold.

So, no affirmative action by the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists to assist the Russians to conquer Istanbul and restore the Christian Empire.   I am sure the Russians will not fail to notice this lack of enthusiasm by the HON to come into the war on the Christian side.  You may find yourselves eating borscht in Constantinople and press ganged into the labour force which will be needed to rebuild it as a Christian city.  Still, I suppose even that menial task is holy.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #248 on: June 18, 2009, 02:34:24 AM »

More into God, Fatherland (In this case for me, My Adopted Fatherland of Hellas), and Orthodox Christian Solidarity and of course the Re-establishment of the Eastern Roman Empire (Possibly including Palestine :).


You may have adopted the wrong Fatherland.   According to the prophecies of the holy Greek Elder Paisios it will be the Russians who come down from the North, conquer Istanbul, and reestablish some form of the Empire.   In the process there will be dreadful wars and the Elder Paisios revealed that one third of the Greeks will be killed.

Forget elder Paisios.

try Saint Kosmas Aitolos.

If you search the forum you will find that the Greeks take the prophecies of Elder Paisios very seriously.  Google his name with ozgeorge as the author. You ought to be aware of this if Greece is your adopted Fatherland.

You and all the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists would be better to migrate to Russia, take out Russian citizenship and join the Russian Armed Forces.  That way you will have a chance to fight alongside the Russians when they take Istanbul and establish a Christian Empire again.   Much more heroic than cowering at home in a Greek village and waiting to be slaughtered with 1/3 of the Greeks as prophesied.   Much more valiant than sitting on the sidelines in America.  Seize the moment!

If I had known elder Paisios was like that I would think that he was KGB.
Sorry, I don't like Borscht. The North is too cold.

So, no affirmative action by the Helleno-Orthodox Nationalists to assist the Russians to conquer Istanbul and restore the Christian Empire.   I am sure the Russians will not fail to notice this lack of enthusiasm by the HON to come into the war on the Christian side.  You may find yourselves eating borscht in Constantinople and press ganged into the labour force which will be needed to rebuild it as a Christian city.  Still, I suppose even that menial task is holy.

I've always known those durn Russians had their eyes on The City, I'm sorry but it's gonna be Greek. The russians have their Saint Petersberg and Moscow and Kiev.

The City will be Greek.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #249 on: June 18, 2009, 02:38:21 AM »
I've always known those durn Russians had their eyes on The City, I'm sorry but it's gonna be Greek. The russians have their Saint Petersberg and Moscow and Kiev.

The City will be Greek.

Read the holy and prophetic words of the clairvoyant Elder Paisios who was given the prophecies by the Almighty to bring hope to the Christian world.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #250 on: June 18, 2009, 02:55:40 AM »
Brothers and sisters,

As I reminded one of you earlier, I will now remind you all.  This thread is about the Church's teaching on the Jews, not about any other general conversations about the Jews or Zionism or whatever it is you want to talk about, so let's all return to discussing the Church's teaching on the Jews.  Anymore of these tangents that want to talk about other things not germane to the topic of the Church's teaching on the Jews, and I will lock this thread, which I don't want to do.  So let's get back on topic.

Thank you.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 02:56:05 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Papist

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #251 on: June 19, 2009, 02:15:10 PM »
I am not mentioning anything about race or genetics, as I consider that irrelevant.

We all come from Adam and Eve, we are the handwork of God.

I am focusing on three main things:

1.- The jewish believes and practices.

2.- The witness of the Church on how jews see and treat christians, and how their religion keeps them away from God and salvation.

3.- How some christian denominations changed and adopted a new attitude and ideology, to fraternize and cooperate with the jews, and totally deny Christ our God and Savior.

One of the most dramatic changes can be observed in the Roman Catholic Church, where jews passed from being the enemies of christianity, to be "their elder brothers", and their false teachings where, among other things, Christ is rejected, denied and insulted, are considered benefical for salvation. In this way, the Roman Catholic Church, denies Christ, and preaches the false doctrine of salvation without Christ, in order "not to offend their elder brothers".

This lead to a series of liturgical reforms in the Roman Catholic Church, such as the removal of prayers for the conversion of the jews, the incorporation of jewish rituals during some religious services such as the giving of blessings by extending their hands and by simply touching people on the head instead of using the sign of the cross, and the incorporation of jewish prayers in some masses, such as the "eveynu shalom alehem" which means "we'll bring you peace" sending the message that by "we" they mean jews, and not Jesus Christ, our God and source of true peace.

This actions go against the teachings of the Church in which it's clearly stated that there is no salvation without Christ, that He is the door, the Prince of peace, the Saviour, and whomsoever denies Him, denies also the Father, do not believe in God, and whomever denies the Saviour will not be saved. The Church continues to pray that jews repent and accept the One True God, the messiah, Jesus Christ, the only saviour.

I think Faith and dogmas (teachings) of the Church must be the core of our discussion.

Mike, What do you see as racism? Where do you see hatred?








Love your enemies. St. Paul refers to the Jews "as enemies" with regard to the Gospel but this does not refute the great praises that he bestows upon the Jewish people and we cannot forget that Jesus himself taught us to "Love your enemies".
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 02:17:03 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline believer74

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #252 on: June 24, 2009, 08:52:27 PM »
I'm new to these forums, but not new to thinking about faith and God.  A 2 years ago convert to Orthodoxy, and for the past year, admittedly, having run against some difficult questions, I have to comment.  I felt horrible when I first saw the Holy Week prayer in which we are to call on God to avenge Jesus' death on the Jews.  I will surely be hung out to dry for this by somebody, judging from the comments I've read thus far - but, I do believe there are some things we can know in our core, as without aid of a church council, etc.  Perhaps to some that makes me already not Orthodox, LOL.  I will not stand up in a house of God and ask Him to hurt any of His children, no matter what we (think) they said to curse themselves.  History and groups of people are always more nuanced than they are portrayed.  How about reasons why people may not have believed being a Christian was the right thing to do.  I think God is more understanding than we give Him credit for, quite honestly. 

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #253 on: June 24, 2009, 09:32:22 PM »
I felt horrible when I first saw the Holy Week prayer in which we are to call on God to avenge Jesus' death on the Jews.

Can you please share the specific section you are referring to with references?  I would like to read them myself.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #254 on: June 24, 2009, 09:49:48 PM »
I felt horrible when I first saw the Holy Week prayer in which we are to call on God to avenge Jesus' death on the Jews.

Can you please share the specific section you are referring to with references?  I would like to read them myself.

Hmmm..We read the so called "Blood Libel" passage but I guess I missed the revenge prayer.. Please cite your reference.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline believer74

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #255 on: June 24, 2009, 10:14:08 PM »
Hi, here it is.  I looked in my Holy Week book "New English Translation" (it's small and black).  It starts in p. 232, Holy Thursday evening chant,  "...the Hebrew race, they condemned you to be crucified, ... render unto them O Lord according to their works..."  that goes on for a few pages and then p. 242 says , "that lawless swarm of God slayers" .  I'm sorry but this just doesn't feel right to say.  Particularly when the same prayer service then goes on to say a few pages later how Jesus calls on God to "forgive them, for they know not what they do"!  
If Jesus didn't call for vengeance why do we?   Not directed at you but just generally at anyone who would give me some gentle feedback.  Thanks, all.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #256 on: June 24, 2009, 11:19:51 PM »
Hi, here it is.  I looked in my Holy Week book "New English Translation" (it's small and black).  It starts in p. 232, Holy Thursday evening chant,  "...the Hebrew race, they condemned you to be crucified, ... render unto them O Lord according to their works..."  that goes on for a few pages and then p. 242 says , "that lawless swarm of God slayers" .  I'm sorry but this just doesn't feel right to say.  Particularly when the same prayer service then goes on to say a few pages later how Jesus calls on God to "forgive them, for they know not what they do"!  
If Jesus didn't call for vengeance why do we?   Not directed at you but just generally at anyone who would give me some gentle feedback.  Thanks, all.

I have seen some priests just omit that passage. I have a feeling that it slipped in after bad feelings started to develop between the Jews and the Christians. In any case, if I were in a position of influence, I would recommend that this passage be taken out because it is inconsistent with the Holy Scriptures.

BTW, I am continually amazed at the variety of Orthodox folks, some of whom seem to approach cultist status. What is with these Zarist and HON and other weird groups anyway?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 11:25:26 PM by Second Chance »

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #257 on: June 24, 2009, 11:37:04 PM »
Hi, here it is.  I looked in my Holy Week book "New English Translation" (it's small and black).  It starts in p. 232, Holy Thursday evening chant,  "...the Hebrew race, they condemned you to be crucified, ... render unto them O Lord according to their works..."  that goes on for a few pages and then p. 242 says , "that lawless swarm of God slayers" .  I'm sorry but this just doesn't feel right to say.  Particularly when the same prayer service then goes on to say a few pages later how Jesus calls on God to "forgive them, for they know not what they do"!  
If Jesus didn't call for vengeance why do we?   Not directed at you but just generally at anyone who would give me some gentle feedback.  Thanks, all.

I have seen some priests just omit that passage. I have a feeling that it slipped in after bad feelings started to develop between the Jews and the Christians. In any case, if I were in a position of influence, I would recommend that this passage be taken out because it is inconsistent with the Holy Scriptures.

BTW, I am continually amazed at the variety of Orthodox folks, some of whom seem to approach cultist status. What is with these Zarist and HON and other weird groups anyway?

That has not been said in any Church I've been to. If you go to one that keeps it in, you may want to discuss with the Priest why. It is not a common practice.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline simplygermain

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #258 on: June 27, 2009, 12:00:02 PM »
Yes, that is my understanding also. They forced Jews to convert and then were suspicious when it didn't take. There are stories that they would watch Jewish homes to see if smoke came out of the chimney on the Sabbath. If not, they may have been refraining from work and thereby carted off to get their finger nails pulled out....etc.

Still, Pagan Greeks were free to remain Greeks in identity after Baptism but Jews somehow cease to be Jews once Baptised.. The ideal of, there are no Greeks or Jews in Christ, does not seem to be what has been done in practice
Comparibly, In Acts, , one sees that Paul made his disciple Timothy (source, Acts 16) and made him circumsized because his mother was Jew and father was Greek, so as not to digress the laws of the Jews. But in the case of Titus and those whom Paul preached to in Antioch ( Acts 15 )it was not necessary for them to be circumsized - they were Gentiles.



Fixed quote tag issues, nothing more...  -PtA
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 05:08:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #259 on: March 23, 2010, 03:33:14 PM »
CONTEXT NOTE:  To facilitate a more robust discussion of this subject, I merged what follows into the last recent discussion of the Church's teaching on the Jews.  -PtA


What is the Church`s teaching on the feasts,new moons and sabbaths of the Jews?Can a Jew who comes to the Church still keep them?Are they still in actuality?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 12:39:03 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #260 on: March 23, 2010, 03:55:26 PM »
I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Offline Marc1152

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #261 on: March 23, 2010, 04:02:15 PM »
I'm not well versed in this topic but I know that many of the Canons actually forbid Christians from celebrating the Jewish Feasts and St. John Chrysostom also forbade this in his infamous "Homilies Against the Jews".

Judaizing Christianity is a heresy. However, the occasional secular oriented brisket dinner at Passover (if your family is Jewish) is probably okay with the blessing of your Priest. But serious observance of any other religion except Christianity is never allowed.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #262 on: March 23, 2010, 04:16:07 PM »
Sorry if it offends but for Orthodox Christians, St John's homily is not infamous.  Whatever is written about the Jews should in my humble opinion be seasoned with what is happening in our times.  I am not equating Judaism with Zionism.
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Offline xuxana

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #263 on: March 23, 2010, 04:40:42 PM »
orthodox christians like the jews. its the protestants that dont.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

martin luther hated the jews with a vengeance.
Ephesians 6:10-18

Offline xuxana

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #264 on: March 23, 2010, 04:46:07 PM »
Why have soymilk, when there's cream to be had?  :laugh:
coz asian people are lactose intolerant.
Ephesians 6:10-18

Offline Heorhij

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #265 on: March 23, 2010, 05:30:56 PM »
Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
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Offline xuxana

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #266 on: March 23, 2010, 05:38:56 PM »
Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
wow. thats so mean.  they oughtta change that cannon.
Ephesians 6:10-18

Offline Rafa999

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #267 on: March 23, 2010, 07:34:11 PM »
Well...I agree that canon is somewhat harsh. We do need to take into account though that it only says we cannot pray in a synagogue (otherwise everything is ok- there is no prohibition from going to a Synagogue and having some fellowship).  ;)


 I am not a scholar on Orthodoxy, but I presume this canon was written because at the time prayers like the Birkat Ha'minim were being recited by Jews in Synagogues. These prayers required Christians to 1) Curse themselves and their predecessors, 2) Curse the Roman Empire (unfeasible since Christians had by then overthrown the Roman empire and become their successors) 3) Curse Jewish "collaborators" (namely any Jew who believed in the New Testament or collaborated with the Christians). So it would be not realistic to say these prayers and remain in good standing truth be told.

Xuxana, you said you were tweeting with a Jewish lady in a Kibbutz in Israel who was a believer in the True Messiah, part of the Edtha. Can you tweet to her about the Peshitta New Testament written in the original Ktav Ashurri script used by the first Jewish believers, the Peshitta New Testament preserved by the Assyrian Church of the East ? Here is an interlinear by a ACOE Deacon I have only the highest trust for:

http://peshitta.org/

and a Jewish translation by a friend of mine and Nazarene's with many useful footnotes and the Khabouris codex side by side to it:

http://www.aent.org/

also give her this:

http://www.hebrewaramaic.org/

(links to the Peshitta Tanakh, old testament of the ACOE and Mesopotamian Jewry)


I would appreciate if you gave her these links since it is important for her to feel her beliefs are validated and she can rest in peace at night.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:36:28 PM by Rafa999 »
I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #268 on: March 23, 2010, 08:17:05 PM »
Nazarene, this thread is about the Orthodox Church's teaching on the Jews, not about Messianic Judaism's teachings on the Jews.  If you would like us to discuss your perspective on this topic, then I invite you to start a separate thread on the Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion board.  Otherwise, please let us Orthodox discuss this subject from our point of view, since that's what the Faith Issues board is for, without you interjecting debate points from the perspective of your Messianic Judaism.

If you want to correct misconceptions of your faith tradition, please do, but please limit your comments on this thread to that purpose alone.  Thank you.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #269 on: March 23, 2010, 10:08:33 PM »
You can read it on the Net at
http://www.new-ostrog.org/pogroms.html
 
SERMON AGAINST THE POGROMS
Antony, Metropolitan of Kiev
[the future First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia]

Delivered in the Cathedral of Zhitomir on 20 April, 1903
 
Go to Message 54 and Message 55
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20597.45.html