Author Topic: the church's teaching on the jews  (Read 97173 times)

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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2009, 11:20:43 AM »
I lost - Godwin's law  :-[

I don't think you did, Mike.  You did not mention either a particular political party active in Germany in the 1920s through 40s, nor the man who led it.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2009, 11:24:07 AM »
I am not mentioning anything about race or genetics, as I consider that irrelevant.

We all come from Adam and Eve, we are the handwork of God.

I am focusing on three main things:

1.- The jewish believes and practices.

2.- The witness of the Church on how jews see and treat christians, and how their religion keeps them away from God and salvation.

3.- How some christian denominations changed and adopted a new attitude and ideology, to fraternize and cooperate with the jews, and totally deny Christ our God and Savior.

One of the most dramatic changes can be observed in the Roman Catholic Church, where jews passed from being the enemies of christianity, to be "their elder brothers", and their false teachings where, among other things, Christ is rejected, denied and insulted, are considered benefical for salvation. In this way, the Roman Catholic Church, denies Christ, and preaches the false doctrine of salvation without Christ, in order "not to offend their elder brothers".

This lead to a series of liturgical reforms in the Roman Catholic Church, such as the removal of prayers for the conversion of the jews, the incorporation of jewish rituals during some religious services such as the giving of blessings by extending their hands and by simply touching people on the head instead of using the sign of the cross, and the incorporation of jewish prayers in some masses, such as the "eveynu shalom alehem" which means "we'll bring you peace" sending the message that by "we" they mean jews, and not Jesus Christ, our God and source of true peace.

This actions go against the teachings of the Church in which it's clearly stated that there is no salvation without Christ, that He is the door, the Prince of peace, the Saviour, and whomsoever denies Him, denies also the Father, do not believe in God, and whomever denies the Saviour will not be saved. The Church continues to pray that jews repent and accept the One True God, the messiah, Jesus Christ, the only saviour.

I think Faith and dogmas (teachings) of the Church must be the core of our discussion.


Why do you introduce the Roman Catholics into this discussion on "the church's teaching on the jews."  Should we see Roman Cathiolics as a part of the Church?!
 

Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »
Fascinating.  Would you happen to remember any of the details of their reasoning or "historical evidence"?  I ask for information's sake and not because I believe anything of that sort, as you can probably tell.

I recall that one particular priest with a Russian name (but he may have been Greek Old Calendarist, I need to check) informed us that Jesus Christ existed from all eternity and so He existed prior to the creation and the creation of humanity and therefore He had no Jewish genes and indeed no ethnic inheritance of any sort.  Quite an interesting heresy really.  And one he said his bishop also adhered to.

Intriguing.  The denial that Jesus had any "Jewish genes" might be taken to suggest that the person with this idea could be denying that Our Lord was Fully Human as well as Fully God.  No genes, not genetics, no human body maybe.  As you wrote, an interesting heresy.  My word.


Quote
Quote
May I ask, is "Walled-Off Orthodox Christians" a particular subset or splinter or is it a kind of jesting reference to "WO" with another meaning? 
No, I have seen that there are Greek Old Calendarists, True Orthodox Christians and Walled-Off Christians (such as the Met Cyprian of Fili's Church.)  When your fingers get tired of writing the names out in full, there are useful acronyms:  GOCs, TOCs, and WOCs.

Thank you for the explanation.  Are the "WOCs" essentially "walled off" from any other EO body, even the TOC/GOCs?

Is the Assyrian/Aryan thought line part of the views of the priest you mentioned above?  Or is that a totally different idea on how to make Jesus "no-Jewish"?

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2009, 11:31:12 AM »
1.- The jewish believes and practices.

Which beliefs are you thinking of in particular please?  And which practices?

Quote
2.- The witness of the Church on how jews see and treat christians, and how their religion keeps them away from God and salvation.

What of the witness of History on how many Christians over centuries saw and treated Jews?  Being abused and killed by people who claim to know God might, we could say, not convince them that their persecutors are on the side of Good.  How will violence and hatred convince another Human Being to go to the "side" of one who acts as an enemy one wonders.   :-\

Ebor
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2009, 11:37:06 AM »
Fascinating.  Would you happen to remember any of the details of their reasoning or "historical evidence"?  I ask for information's sake and not because I believe anything of that sort, as you can probably tell.

I recall that one particular priest with a Russian name (but he may have been Greek Old Calendarist, I need to check) informed us that Jesus Christ existed from all eternity and so He existed prior to the creation and the creation of humanity and therefore He had no Jewish genes and indeed no ethnic inheritance of any sort.  Quite an interesting heresy really.  And one he said his bishop also adhered to.

Intriguing.  The denial that Jesus had any "Jewish genes" might be taken to suggest that the person with this idea could be denying that Our Lord was Fully Human as well as Fully God.  No genes, not genetics, no human body maybe.  As you wrote, an interesting heresy.  My word.

Indeed sounds like a very crude Monophysite heresy to me. According to what the Church teaches, AFAIK, our Lord assumed the human body from the Most Holy Theotokos, with genes and everything. And Her genes were most definitely Jewish (or Hebrew), because Her cousin Elizabeth was a "descendant of Aaron" and married to a Hebrew priest "from the priestly order of Abijah" (Luke 1:5).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:37:50 AM by Heorhij »
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2009, 11:40:25 AM »
Did you write this or have you presented it to the Forum members without acknowledging the real author?


...BUT JESUS WAS A JEW.
“ON THAT OLD JEWISH AND PROTESTANT EXCUSE”

In the Old Testament, no matter in which language, the word "Jew" is never applied to Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King Saul, King David, or King Solomon.  The word translated in many English versions as "Jew" first occurs in 2 KINGS 16:6,(and then only in translations revised in the eighteenth century) and it refers to those of the territory of the two tribes, that is, the men of the kingdom of Judah in the south ("Judah" is from the Hebrew; "Judaea, Judea" is Latin from the Greek "Ioudaios"), as opposed to those in the kingdom of Israel in the north, the territory of the ten other tribes. According to the Oxford English dictionary (1978), the word "Jew" (Gyv) occurs for the first time in English c. 1275 A.D.

<Big snip>

Jesus abhorred and denounced "Pharisaism"; hence the words, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, Ye Serpents, Ye Generation of Vipers".

THE END AND GLORY BE TO GOD!


The Real Author is a Traditionalist Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian who does not wish to be named.
But the article can be read here:  http://www.orthodoxrevival.com/orthodoxy/christ_jew.html

I know the webmaster of this website quite well. face to face and a Helleno-Orthodox Nationalist,
I can vouch for this guy anyday.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2009, 11:44:07 AM »
IThis actions go against the teachings of the Church in which it's clearly stated that there is no salvation without Christ, that He is the door, the Prince of peace, the Saviour, and whomsoever denies Him, denies also the Father, do not believe in God, and whomever denies the Saviour will not be saved.


The percentage of those who deny Christ as Saviour, while knowing Him to be the Saviour, must be a small percentage of mankind.

AS to the salvation of those who have not consciously rejected him, we have the words of St. Theophan the Recluse to guide us into a correct Orthodox understanding:

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them?
They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being.
He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such
concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however:
should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray
Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever
."


And there are the words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian.  He is here speaking of heretical Christians but I would think he would say the same about the Jews:


"It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


N.B:  "The Lord...undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation
In His own way."






Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2009, 11:45:32 AM »
Pravoslave09, why am I NOT suprised to find you here.

Well, I suppose that in some ways we are fortunate to have two representatives of the minor Orthodox Churches posting on the Forum.  Sdcheung is (if we judge by the site from which he has taken his material) a member of the Greek Old Calendar Church and Pravoslav09 of the Russian Zarist Church. It's not often we encounter members of these two church groups and we have an opportunity to learn something about their beliefs and doctrines and worldview.  It is fascinating but also, I have to admit, disturbing, at least for me.

Goarch actually.
I consider OCA a CIA-Sate department listening post.

I have my qualms about Goarch too.

I just may end up in a walled off church.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:48:43 AM by sdcheung »

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2009, 11:48:11 AM »

Well, I suppose that in some ways we are fortunate to have two representatives of the minor Orthodox Churches posting on the Forum.  Sdcheung is (if we judge by the site from which he has taken his material) a member of the Greek Old Calendar Church and Pravoslav09 of the Russian Zarist Church. It's not often we encounter members of these two church groups and we have an opportunity to learn something about their beliefs and doctrines and worldview.  It is fascinating but also, I have to admit, disturbing, at least for me.

If you're disturbed, don't blame it on us Irish Hermit. (pun intended).

Irish Hermit is a vivid example of how a member of the Moscow Patriarchate treats Russian True-Orthodox Christians.

Befriending jews and hatting True Orthodox Christians: Where does this gobsmacking contradictory behaviour come from? Departure from God? Alliance with the enemy of salvation?

Thanks for enlightening me..I shall flee farrr away from this "shepherd"



Fixed quote tag issue...  -PtA
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:27:45 PM by PeterTheAleut »

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2009, 11:50:33 AM »
Look, we aren't Christian Zionists, but we aren't anti-Semites. The Jewish religion is dead, it was fulfilled 2000 years ago, but we don't have any reason to regard them differently than any other religion. And if you are advocating hate for the Jewish race, that is even more incompatible with Orthodoxy, since our religion was started by racial Jews (and racism in general is certainly incompatible).

And the jewish 'Race" is advocating hate for the whole world, They started their racism. it's called Zionism

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2009, 11:51:21 AM »

May I ask, is "Walled-Off Orthodox Christians" a particular subset or splinter or is it a kind of jesting reference to "WO" with another meaning? 

I can only think of Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili's Church (+Chrysostomos of Etna) which officially refers to itself as a Walled-off Church.

Quote
Thank you for the explanation.  Are the "WOCs" essentially "walled off" from any other EO body, even the TOC/GOCs?
I think that the Walled-Off Church of Metropolitan CVyprian maintains communion with a Romanian Old Calendar Church, a Bulgarian Old Calendar Church and, lately, with Metropolitan Agathangelos (ROCOR-PSEA.)    Fr Anastasios would have a better knowledge of this.

Quote
Is the Assyrian/Aryan thought line part of the views of the priest you mentioned above?  Or is that a totally different idea on how to make Jesus "no-Jewish"?

A different source.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2009, 11:52:21 AM »
Ambrose Mooney

why..that doesn't sound russian at all.



Fixed quote tag issue...  -PtA
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2009, 11:56:27 AM »

Well, I suppose that in some ways we are fortunate to have two representatives of the minor Orthodox Churches posting on the Forum.  Sdcheung is (if we judge by the site from which he has taken his material) a member of the Greek Old Calendar Church and Pravoslav09 of the Russian Zarist Church. It's not often we encounter members of these two church groups and we have an opportunity to learn something about their beliefs and doctrines and worldview.  It is fascinating but also, I have to admit, disturbing, at least for me.

If you're disturbed, don't blame it on us Irish Hermit. (pun intended).

Irish Hermit is a vivid example of how a member of the Moscow Patriarchate treats Russian True-Orthodox Christians. [/quote
Befriending jews and hatting True Orthodox Christians: Where does this gobsmacking contradictory behaviour come from? Departure from God? Alliance with the enemy of salvation?

Thanks for enlightening me..I shall flee farrr away from this "shepherd"

Thanks.  I am kind of overburdened at the moment.   :)


Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2009, 11:57:11 AM »


One of the most dramatic changes can be observed in the Roman Catholic Church, where jews passed from being the enemies of christianity, to be "their elder brothers",


In what sense are Jews the elder brother of the Roman Catholic Church???

Go ask JPII or Benedict.one of them said it.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2009, 11:57:30 AM »

Ambrose Mooney

why..that doesn't sound russian at all.

Neither does Ridiger.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:59:35 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #150 on: June 16, 2009, 11:57:55 AM »

Well, I suppose that in some ways we are fortunate to have two representatives of the minor Orthodox Churches posting on the Forum.  Sdcheung is (if we judge by the site from which he has taken his material) a member of the Greek Old Calendar Church and Pravoslav09 of the Russian Zarist Church. It's not often we encounter members of these two church groups and we have an opportunity to learn something about their beliefs and doctrines and worldview.  It is fascinating but also, I have to admit, disturbing, at least for me.

If you're disturbed, don't blame it on us Irish Hermit. (pun intended).

Irish Hermit is a vivid example of how a member of the Moscow Patriarchate treats Russian True-Orthodox Christians. [/quote
Befriending jews and hatting True Orthodox Christians: Where does this gobsmacking contradictory behaviour come from? Departure from God? Alliance with the enemy of salvation?

Thanks for enlightening me..I shall flee farrr away from this "shepherd"

Thanks.  I am kind of overburdened at the moment.   :)



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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #151 on: June 16, 2009, 11:58:50 AM »
Ambrose Mooney

why..that doesn't sound russian at all.

Neither does Ridiger.

Orthodox Church of the  Ethnic Miscellany



Fixed quote tag issue...  -PtA
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:29:57 PM by PeterTheAleut »

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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #152 on: June 16, 2009, 12:04:25 PM »

http://www.orthodoxrevival.com/

Wow...

I looked around this site a bit more.  The page on "Recognizing Jewish Surnames" was interesting in its deciding what are some of the "Common" names which are in fact from other countries/ethnicities.  There are two on the list that are in my family background and I know from historical records that those ancestors came from Scotland and England and weren't "Jewish".  But would this person insist that I have "jewish blood" or some such on religious grounds?  ??? ::)

I am also puzzled by the reference to the 1940 film Swiss Family Robinson which was uploaded to a Torrent site by "Orthodox Revival", which is "genuine" rather then "as opposed to Walt Disney's Judaized 1960 version".     ???  Again the reference to something being "Jewish"/"Judaized".  Yet there is no explanation for why the writer thinks that the 1960 movie is somehow bad or tainted.  

Colour me dubious.

P.S. Thank you for the information, Irish Hermit.

Ebor

« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:07:57 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #153 on: June 16, 2009, 12:05:48 PM »
Ambrose Mooney

why..that doesn't sound russian at all.

Neither does Ridiger.

Orthodox Church of the  Ethnic Miscellany

Glory to God for the Ethnic Miscellany! 

"For lo!  Thy children come to thee from the West and from the North, and from the Sea and from the East, as to a beacon lighted by God..."
8th Ode, PASCHA

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #154 on: June 16, 2009, 12:06:12 PM »
I still think todays Ashkenazi jews are Khazar Turks who converted to Judaism but still in-authentic jews.
and Sephardic jews are Bedouin Arab Tribes who converted to Judaism.

There are no true jews Today.

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #155 on: June 16, 2009, 12:07:39 PM »

http://www.orthodoxrevival.com/

Wow...

I looked around this site a bit more.  The page on "Recognizing Jewish Surnames" was interesting in its deciding what are some of the "Common" names which are in fact from other countries/ethnicities.  There are two on the list that are in my family background and I know from historical records that those ancestors came from Scotland and England and weren't "Jewish".  But would this person insist that I have "jewish blood" or some such on religious grounds?  ??? ::)



,

<--Contributor.
That was my list.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #156 on: June 16, 2009, 12:08:51 PM »

http://www.orthodoxrevival.com/

Wow...

I looked around this site a bit more.  The page on "Recognizing Jewish Surnames" was interesting in its deciding what are some of the "Common" names which are in fact from other countries/ethnicities.  There are two on the list that are in my family background and I know from historical records that those ancestors came from Scotland and England and weren't "Jewish".  But would this person insist that I have "jewish blood" or some such on religious grounds?  ??? ::)



,

<--Contributor.
That was my list.


Indeed...  then I submit that it is a list with a too broad a brush in its "tarring".....  :-\
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:09:36 PM by Ebor »
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #157 on: June 16, 2009, 12:11:42 PM »

http://www.orthodoxrevival.com/

Wow...

I looked around this site a bit more.  The page on "Recognizing Jewish Surnames" was interesting in its deciding what are some of the "Common" names which are in fact from other countries/ethnicities.  There are two on the list that are in my family background and I know from historical records that those ancestors came from Scotland and England and weren't "Jewish".  But would this person insist that I have "jewish blood" or some such on religious grounds?  ??? ::)



,

<--Contributor.
That was my list.


Indeed...  then I submit that it is a list with a too broad a brush in its "tarring".....  :-\

sorry..
Iforgot all the spanish ones too..
Like Peres, Martinez, even found a Gomes once.

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #158 on: June 16, 2009, 12:14:51 PM »
I still think todays Ashkenazi jews are Khazar Turks who converted to Judaism but still in-authentic jews.
and Sephardic jews are Bedouin Arab Tribes who converted to Judaism.

The Sephardim aren't Arabs. The Middle Eastern Jews are known as the Mesrakhim.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2009, 12:15:06 PM »
I have changed my avatar picture for the duration of this thread.

Denying Jesus was a Jew is a back door way of denying the incarnation. There are all kinds of  realities we are faced with as Christians that we may be personally comfortable with. But unlike many other groups, Orthodoxy demands that we conform and not change the religion to conform to our own petty preferences. This sort of antisemitic denial is surely the work of the Devil since it leads one into at least a partial denial of the incarnation...

We had a discussion in another thread about an icon depicting the Theotokos and Child as being Chinese. They were not Chinese. God actually was born to a real mother with a real heritage in a specific ethnic and religious line.....just like the rest of us. Praise be his mercy and condescension to us.

  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:15:44 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #160 on: June 16, 2009, 12:17:07 PM »
I have changed my avatar picture for the duration of this thread.

Denying Jesus was a Jew is a back door way of denying the incarnation. There are all kinds of  realities we are faced with as Christians that we may be personally comfortable with. But unlike many other groups, Orthodoxy demands that we conform and not change the religion to conform to our own petty preferences. This sort of antisemitic denial is surely the work of the Devil since it leads one into at least a partial denial of the incarnation...

We had a discussion in another thread about an icon depicting the Theotokos and Child as being Chinese. They were not Chinese. God actually was born to a real mother with a real heritage in a specific ethnic and religious line.....just like the rest of us. Praise be his mercy and condescension to us.

  

Shakes head.

Those who are too friendly to jews will regret it.

Been burned too many times by them.

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Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #161 on: June 16, 2009, 12:17:19 PM »
Salvation comes from jews . Thanks to the promises made to Abraham , Isaac , Jacob and others we have the possibility to be reedemed. Jacob(Israel) was not a jew himself , Moses refers somewere into the pentateuch to Jacob as being Syrian.Let`s not forget we are instituated to their roots , and thanks to the promises God made to some of our parents Abraham , Jacob , Moses , David , etc the Church exists.We were instituated to their parents , teaching , etc . Let`s not forget Israel was God`s given name to Jacob , a divine name , a name with wich His people is named.Let`s not forget Israel is compared with the first born wich is Jesus. Not all from Israel are Israel . Israel are the children of faith , the people of God , the christians. Israel is a spiritual name . And the sons of Abraham are the sons of promise and faith. Cause of faith and promise is this word : next year at this time , your wife Sarra will have a child.The sons of Abraham , the people of God are the faithfulls , those who serve God in truth and spirit , as Abraham did , as Moses did , as Samson did , as Ierubaal did , as Samuel did , as David did , and I can`t mention them all.Those are Israel. The real Israel are we , the Church , The Bride of Jesus and we inherited a better name than Abraham , a better name than Jacob(Israel) a better name than Moses , a better name than David the name of Christ (christians). The only name given to people in whom we find Salvation. The one who descended in Hades and freed those justs of the OT.Let us not despise the jews or hate them , and remmber salvation is from jews.And as we are trough them , they will be trough us.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #162 on: June 16, 2009, 12:18:41 PM »
I still think todays Ashkenazi jews are Khazar Turks who converted to Judaism but still in-authentic jews.
and Sephardic jews are Bedouin Arab Tribes who converted to Judaism.

There are no true jews Today.

DNA testing has disproved this totally.  Not only do the Jews of today have the same genetic material as Arabs (and Armenians), and not Turks, and each other, but the kohenim (Jewishe/Hebrew priests) have been shown to be descended, from all over the world, from a male 3000 years before present, i.e. Aaron.
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Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #163 on: June 16, 2009, 12:22:40 PM »
Yes , Jesus after the flesh , in His human side , He was a jew , as the fullfilment of the promises God made to the jewish justs.That is why salvation is from jews , we can`t deny that.Also let`s not forget , the jews(jewish tribes) "mixed" between the nations.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #164 on: June 16, 2009, 12:23:06 PM »
Interesting.  Do you recall if there are any articles on line about this genetic testing?  
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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #165 on: June 16, 2009, 12:23:43 PM »
I am not mentioning anything about race or genetics, as I consider that irrelevant.

We all come from Adam and Eve, we are the handwork of God.

I am focusing on three main things:

1.- The jewish believes and practices.

2.- The witness of the Church on how jews see and treat christians, and how their religion keeps them away from God and salvation.

3.- How some christian denominations changed and adopted a new attitude and ideology, to fraternize and cooperate with the jews, and totally deny Christ our God and Savior.

One of the most dramatic changes can be observed in the Roman Catholic Church, where jews passed from being the enemies of christianity, to be "their elder brothers", and their false teachings where, among other things, Christ is rejected, denied and insulted, are considered benefical for salvation. In this way, the Roman Catholic Church, denies Christ, and preaches the false doctrine of salvation without Christ, in order "not to offend their elder brothers".

This lead to a series of liturgical reforms in the Roman Catholic Church, such as the removal of prayers for the conversion of the jews, the incorporation of jewish rituals during some religious services such as the giving of blessings by extending their hands and by simply touching people on the head instead of using the sign of the cross, and the incorporation of jewish prayers in some masses, such as the "eveynu shalom alehem" which means "we'll bring you peace" sending the message that by "we" they mean jews, and not Jesus Christ, our God and source of true peace.

This actions go against the teachings of the Church in which it's clearly stated that there is no salvation without Christ, that He is the door, the Prince of peace, the Saviour, and whomsoever denies Him, denies also the Father, do not believe in God, and whomever denies the Saviour will not be saved. The Church continues to pray that jews repent and accept the One True God, the messiah, Jesus Christ, the only saviour.

I think Faith and dogmas (teachings) of the Church must be the core of our discussion.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #166 on: June 16, 2009, 12:25:54 PM »
Did you write this or have you presented it to the Forum members without acknowledging the real author?


...BUT JESUS WAS A JEW.
“ON THAT OLD JEWISH AND PROTESTANT EXCUSE”

In the Old Testament, no matter in which language, the word "Jew" is never applied to Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King Saul, King David, or King Solomon.  The word translated in many English versions as "Jew" first occurs in 2 KINGS 16:6,(and then only in translations revised in the eighteenth century) and it refers to those of the territory of the two tribes, that is, the men of the kingdom of Judah in the south ("Judah" is from the Hebrew; "Judaea, Judea" is Latin from the Greek "Ioudaios"), as opposed to those in the kingdom of Israel in the north, the territory of the ten other tribes. According to the Oxford English dictionary (1978), the word "Jew" (Gyv) occurs for the first time in English c. 1275 A.D.

<Big snip>

Jesus abhorred and denounced "Pharisaism"; hence the words, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, Ye Serpents, Ye Generation of Vipers".

THE END AND GLORY BE TO GOD!


The Real Author is a Traditionalist Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian who does not wish to be named.
But the article can be read here:  http://www.orthodoxrevival.com/orthodoxy/christ_jew.html

I know the webmaster of this website quite well. face to face and a Helleno-Orthodox Nationalist,
I can vouch for this guy anyday.
Yes, we also know the name of the guy, so he's not as anonymous as you might hope.
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Offline Douglas

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #167 on: June 16, 2009, 12:29:09 PM »
So... some are now claiming that Jesus was not a Jew?  ::) I've shared some of this with my wife who simply asked: "So, why do you insist on posting in such ridiculous discussions? Is this a Christian group?" Of course, I had to assure her that it is indeed a Christian group and an Orthodox one at that, but that there is always going to be the fringe element that make outlandish claims. What is the point of such a denial? Is anti-semetism at the heart of this?

The evidence that Jesus was a Jew is overwhelming.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:30:52 PM by Douglas »
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Offline Ebor

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #168 on: June 16, 2009, 12:35:39 PM »
What is the point of such a denial? Is anti-semetism at the heart of this?

I'd say, yes.  For some people, unfortunately, to have an "Other" to blame, to look down on, to castigate, to deny that they are as Human as the speaker/writer is something that they embrace and which makes them feel good about their diatribes because it makes them feel righteous maybe.  And as may be seen here and with such things as a "List of Jewish Names" (which often they aren't) they spread out their negative feelings and attacks on others who do not agree with them either.

Sigh.

Quote
The evidence that Jesus was a Jew is overwhelming.

Indeed.


Ebor
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #169 on: June 16, 2009, 12:40:37 PM »
I know the webmaster of this website quite well. face to face and a Helleno-Orthodox Nationalist,
I can vouch for this guy anyday.
Yes, we also know the name of the guy, so he's not as anonymous as you might hope.

Yes, he was named in a earlier post in the thread.

Here is the website for his Church. 
http://www.genuineorthodoxchurch.net/america.html

It names the person responsible for the orthodoxrevival.com site as Theoharis Kekis.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:43:13 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #170 on: June 16, 2009, 12:40:48 PM »
Shakes head.

Those who are too friendly to jews will regret it.

Been burned too many times by them.

I agree. What we need is a strong leader with a cool moustache to take care of those trouble makers.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #171 on: June 16, 2009, 12:51:40 PM »
Shakes head.

Those who are too friendly to jews will regret it.

Been burned too many times by them.

I agree. What we need is a strong leader with a cool moustache to take care of those trouble makers.

Too bad cloning technology was available back the... ;)

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #172 on: June 16, 2009, 12:53:12 PM »

Quote
The evidence that Jesus was a Jew is overwhelming.

Indeed.


Ebor

Jesus wasn't just one of Todays Jews.
Since Todays Jews are just Faux Jews who are really Khazar Turks
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 12:53:47 PM by sdcheung »

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #173 on: June 16, 2009, 12:57:48 PM »
Jesus wasn't just one of Todays Jews.
Since Todays Jews are just Faux Jews who are really Khazar Turks

You're playing word games. The fact IS, Jesus most certainly was a Jew. As for your anti-semitic remarks, I'm a little surprised you have not been cautioned about this. As Christians we are not about hate but rather love. Hatred (for ANY people) is of Satan not of the Lord.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2009, 01:03:37 PM »
Actually Jews can be Orthodox Christian, BUT, I suggest we put back in place these Canons.

THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL IN TRULLO (THE QUINISEXT COUNCIL)
THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL IN TRULLO; OFTEN CALLED THE QUINISEXT COUNCIL,
A.D. 692.
CANON XI.

LET no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman let him be cut off.

NOTES.

ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XI.

Jewish unleavened bread is to be refused. Whoever even calls in Jews as physicians or bathes with them is to be deposed.

VAN ESPEN.

Theodore Balsamon is of opinion that this canon does not forbid the eating of unleavened bread; but that what is intended is the keeping of feasts in a Jewish fashion, or in sacrifices to use unleavened bread (azymes), and this, says Balsamon, on account of the Latins who celebrate their feasts with azymes.

Canon lxix. [i.e., lxx.] of those commonly called Apostolic forbids the observance of festivals with the Jews; and declares it to be unlawful to receive manuscula from them, but by this canon all familiar intercourse with them is forbidden.

While there can be no doubt that in all the Trullan canons there is an undercurrent of hostility to the West, yet in this canon I can see no such spirit, and I think it has been read into it by the greater bitterness of later times. This seems the more certain from the fact that there is nothing new whatever in the provision with respect to the passover bread, vide canons of Laodicea xxxvij. and xxxviij.

This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Gratian's Decretum, Pars II., Causa xxviij., can. xiii.(1)

+++

11.

Let no one enrolled in the sacerdotal list, or any layman, eat the unleavened wafers manufactured by the Jews, or in any way become familiar with the Jews or call them in case of sickness, or take any medicines from them, or even bathe with them in public bathing beaches or bathhouses. If anyone should attempt to do this, in case he is a clergyman, let him be deposed from office; or, in case he is a layman, let him be excommunicated.

Interpretation.

The present Canon commands that no person in holy orders and no layman may eat any unleavened wafers sent him by Jews, nor indeed be in any way friendly with Jews, nor when he finds himself ill may he call them and take their remedies,[139] or even bathe with them in baths and bathing places. In case anyone should do this, or any of these things, if he is a clergyman, let him be deposed from office; but if he is a layman, let him be excommunicated. Read also Ap. cc. VII and LXX.

FROM THE APOSTOLIC CANONS

Canon VII. (VIII.)

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed.

Canon LXX.

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL IN CHALCEDON (THE SEVENTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL)
Canon 8 From the Seventh Ecumenical Council
CANON VIII.

That Hebrews ought not to be received unless they have been converted in sincerity of heart.

SINCE certain, erring in the superstitions of the Hebrews, have thought to mock at Christ our God, and feigning to be converted to the religion of Christ do deny him, and in private and secretly keep the Sabbath and observe other Jewish customs, we decree that such persons be not received to communion, nor to prayers, nor into the Church; but let them be openly Hebrews according to their religion, and let them not bring their children to baptism, nor purchase or possess a slave. But if any of them, out of a sincere heart and in faith, is converted and makes profession with his whole heart, setting at naught their customs and observances, and so that others may be convinced and converted, such an one is to be received and baptized, and his children likewise; and let them be taught to take care to hold aloof from the ordinances of the Hebrews. But if they will not do this, let them in no wise be received.

NOTES.

ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON VIII.

Hebrews must not be received unless they are manifestly converted with sincerity of heart.

HEFELE.

The Greek commentators Balsamon and Zonaras understood the words "nor to baptize their children" to mean, "these seeming Christians may not 'baptize their own children,'' because they only seem to be Christians. But parents were never allowed to baptize their own children, and the true sense of the words in question comes out clearly from the second half of the canon.

+++

8.

Inasmuch as some persons who have been misled by their inferences from the religion of the Jews have seen fit to sneer at Christ our God, while pretending to be Christians, but secretly and clandestinely keeping the Sabbath and doing other Jewish acts, we decree that these persons shall not be admitted to communion, nor to prayer, nor to church, but shall be Jews openly in accordance with their religion; and that neither shall their children be baptized, nor shall they buy or acquire a slave. But if any one of them should be converted as a matter of sincere faith, and confess with all his heart, triumphantly repudiating their customs and affairs, with a view to censure and correction of others, we decree that he shall be accepted and his children shall be baptized, and that the latter shall be persuaded to hold themselves aloof from Jewish peculiarities. If, on the other hand, the case is not thus, they are not to be accepted under any other circumstances whatever.

Interpretation.

The present Canon decrees that no one is to join in communion or prayer with, or even admit into church, those Jews who only hypocritically have become Christians and have joined the Orthodox faith, but secretly deny and mock Christ our God, while keeping the Sabbath and other Jewish customs (or, more explicitly, circumcising their sons, deeming anyone unclean that takes hold of a corpse or leper, and other similar vagaries); but, on the contrary, such persons are to be Jews as they were before, and no one shall baptize their children nor let them buy a slave or acquire one by exchange or gift or in any other fashion. But if any Jew should be actually converted in good and guileless faith and with all his heart confess the orthodoxy of Christians, openly disparaging the religion of the Jews, in order that other Jews may be reproved and corrected, we ought to accept such a person, and baptize his children, ordering them persuasively to abstain from Jewish superstitions. But as for those who do not become converted in such a manner, we must not admit them on any account whatever.[274]

Concord.

In agreement with the present Canon ch. 44 of Title I of Book I of the Basilica decrees that if any Jew accused of any crime or owing a debt should on account thereof pretend that he has become willing to be a Christian, he is not to be accepted thus until he has paid his debt or has been acquitted of the crimes of which he has been accused. Likewise ch. 47 of the same Title and Book decrees that no Jew shall have a slave who is a Christian, nor circumcise anyone who is being catechized; neither shall any other heretic have a slave who is a Christian, but the moment he acquires him, the slave shall become free. Read also the Footnote to c. II of the 1st.







« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 01:06:59 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #175 on: June 16, 2009, 01:05:15 PM »
I have changed my avatar picture for the duration of this thread.

Denying Jesus was a Jew is a back door way of denying the incarnation. There are all kinds of realities we are faced with as Christians that we may be personally comfortable with. But unlike many other groups, Orthodoxy demands that we conform and not change the religion to conform to our own petty preferences. This sort of antisemitic denial is surely the work of the Devil since it leads one into at least a partial denial of the incarnation...

We had a discussion in another thread about an icon depicting the Theotokos and Child as being Chinese. They were not Chinese. God actually was born to a real mother with a real heritage in a specific ethnic and religious line.....just like the rest of us. Praise be his mercy and condescension to us.

  

Shakes head.

Those who are too friendly to jews will regret it.

Been burned too many times by them.

But that makes it an opportunity for humility and repentance. I have learned in my own Christian life that if there is something that really gores my own cow, that it is exactly the  thing the Lord wishes me to use to grow in him.
This kind of malice is surely a stain upon your immortal soul. All your internal chatter and argumentation should stop and simply recognize that bigotry is un Christian . You have an opportunity to make a wonderful confession especially in this fasting season.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #176 on: June 16, 2009, 01:05:24 PM »
Jesus wasn't just one of Todays Jews.
Since Todays Jews are just Faux Jews who are really Khazar Turks

You're playing word games. The fact IS, Jesus most certainly was a Jew. As for your anti-semitic remarks, I'm a little surprised you have not been cautioned about this. As Christians we are not about hate but rather love. Hatred (for ANY people) is of Satan not of the Lord.

I believe in in what the article says.

You shouldn't be attending "Friends of Israel Nights" @ CUFI

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #177 on: June 16, 2009, 01:12:27 PM »
Jesus wasn't just one of Todays Jews.
Since Todays Jews are just Faux Jews who are really Khazar Turks

You're playing word games. The fact IS, Jesus most certainly was a Jew. As for your anti-semitic remarks, I'm a little surprised you have not been cautioned about this. As Christians we are not about hate but rather love. Hatred (for ANY people) is of Satan not of the Lord.

Christ most certainly was not "Jewish" in the sense meant by modern Jewish spiritual descendants of the Pharisees, so-called "Orthodox Jews", for these spiritual descendants, by rejecting Christ, are not Israel: and neither were those Pharisees who'd done the same. Neither the Jews who wrote down the oral law of those Christomachist (Christ-Fighting) Pharisees in the normative Jewish work known as the Talmud (completed c. 500 A.D.), which places Christ in hell, in boiling excrement and semen (GITTIN 57a) nor the "mystical" branch of those Pharisees (a member of which was the 13th century Moses de Leon, who wrote the ZOHAR [part of Kabbalah], passing it off as the work of the 2nd century A.D. Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai) which places Him on a dung heap filled with worms, with Mohammad and dead dogs and dead donkeys (ZOHAR III, 282a) have anything to do with Jesus Christ: they WANT nothing to do with Him.  They are not His; He is not theirs. The Jews who composed these normative works of Judaism completely perverted the revelation of God, in order to exult in their own demonic traditions, which they picked up during their exile in Babylon (which did not end in the late 6th century B.C. [relatively few of the children of Israel returned to Jerusalem with Ezra and Nehemiah: most remained in Babylon] but lasted until the Moslems expelled them from the region in the 11th century A.D.), and to identify the Lord Jesus Christ with them is to be guilty of anachronism at best, and at worst, is a subversion of the economy of the Lord, He Who taught believers that all Judaeans, all the tribe of Judah, all inhabitants of Judah, ALL who rejected Him were "this generation," a phrase which in Greek (n autn genea) means those who share traits, especially negative traits,  in this case the sin of having rejected Him. Those Judaeans who cut themselves off from Christ perpetuated a religion which defines itself in opposition to Him and His Church.

This religion is now called "Judaism," which is discontinuous with the revelation God gave Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and King David, since that revelation IS ABOUT CHRIST: this is a fact of salvation history. Judaism and its Jews, however, not only reject Christ but perversely excoriate Him: this is a fact of damnation history.  The religion of present-day Jews (the synagogue of satan) has nothing to do with what the Lord Who is Yahweh revealed to Old Israel in the Old Testament, a revelation that, properly understood---that is, according to the mind of the Church---is Christian, for it was CHRIST Who is revealing Himself to Old Israel: "If you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote of Me" (JOHN 5:46).  "Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms" (LUKE 24:44). "The words of Moses are the words of Christ" (Saint Irenaios of Lyons, AGAINST HERESIES, Book IV, Chapter 2). Find someone today who identifies himself as an "Orthodox" Jew and ask him if he believes that Christ is Yahweh (when you see the Greek words "o wv" in the nimbus that surrounds Christ's head in ikons, you are beholding the Church's teaching that Christ is “He Who Is”, Yahweh, "the God of the Old Testament," Who is actually the God of both the Old and the New) or if he believes the teaching of Saint Irenaios. No "real" Jew believes that the Lord Jesus Christ was a "real" Jew. Indeed, a "real" Jew believes that Christ perverted Judaism, that He was an apostate Jew.


"Jewish" means accepting the synagogue's view of Christ---a false prophet, a deceiver who led Israel astray: therefore this term cannot honestly be retrojected into the Old Testament, since the Old Testament righteous were responding not to proto-Talmudists but to the pre-incarnate Christ.  To call the Old Testament righteous men and women "Jewish" is to ahistorically assert that they were proto-Jews, spiritual ancestors of those who now inhabit today's synagogues. But this is not what the Lord Jesus Christ taught.  He says to those Pharisees (spiritual fathers of modern "Orthodox" Jews) who were rejecting Him by claiming that only Abraham was their father that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY" (JOHN 8:56). Again, all the Old Testament righteous were responding to the pre-incarnate Christ, Who in the Spirit reveals the Father.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 01:16:03 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #178 on: June 16, 2009, 01:27:55 PM »
Interesting.  Do you recall if there are any articles on line about this genetic testing?  
Plenty (I'm lazy, so I'm only going to get you started):
Y chromosome evidence for a founder effect in Ashkenazi Jews
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n3/full/5201319a.html
Y chromosomes of Jewish priests
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v385/n6611/pdf/385032a0.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar#DNA_Evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

Quote
A sample of 526 Y chromosomes representing six Middle Eastern populations (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Kurdish Jews from Israel; Muslim Kurds; Muslim Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area; and Bedouin from the Negev) was analyzed for 13 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors. The two haplogroups Eu 9 and Eu 10 constitute a major part of the Y chromosome pool in the analyzed sample. Our data suggest that Eu 9 originated in the northern part, and Eu 10 in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent. Genetic dating yielded estimates of the expansion of both haplogroups that cover the Neolithic period in the region. Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin differed from the other Middle Eastern populations studied here, mainly in specific high-frequency Eu 10 haplotypes not found in the non-Arab groups. These chromosomes might have been introduced through migrations from the Arabian Peninsula during the last two millennia. The present study contributes to the elucidation of the complex demographic history that shaped the present-day genetic landscape in the region.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0002929707613251

Armenian tradition/historigraphy claims Jewish roots.  Somewhere here I've posted on that before.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: the church's teaching on the jews
« Reply #179 on: June 16, 2009, 01:29:17 PM »
Jesus wasn't just one of Todays Jews.
Since Todays Jews are just Faux Jews who are really Khazar Turks

You're playing word games. The fact IS, Jesus most certainly was a Jew. As for your anti-semitic remarks, I'm a little surprised you have not been cautioned about this. As Christians we are not about hate but rather love. Hatred (for ANY people) is of Satan not of the Lord.

Christ most certainly was not "Jewish" in the sense meant by modern Jewish spiritual descendants of the Pharisees, so-called "Orthodox Jews", for these spiritual descendants, by rejecting Christ, are not Israel: and neither were those Pharisees who'd done the same. Neither the Jews who wrote down the oral law of those Christomachist (Christ-Fighting) Pharisees in the normative Jewish work known as the Talmud (completed c. 500 A.D.), which places Christ in hell, in boiling excrement and semen (GITTIN 57a) nor the "mystical" branch of those Pharisees (a member of which was the 13th century Moses de Leon, who wrote the ZOHAR [part of Kabbalah], passing it off as the work of the 2nd century A.D. Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai) which places Him on a dung heap filled with worms, with Mohammad and dead dogs and dead donkeys (ZOHAR III, 282a) have anything to do with Jesus Christ: they WANT nothing to do with Him.  They are not His; He is not theirs. The Jews who composed these normative works of Judaism completely perverted the revelation of God, in order to exult in their own demonic traditions, which they picked up during their exile in Babylon (which did not end in the late 6th century B.C. [relatively few of the children of Israel returned to Jerusalem with Ezra and Nehemiah: most remained in Babylon] but lasted until the Moslems expelled them from the region in the 11th century A.D.), and to identify the Lord Jesus Christ with them is to be guilty of anachronism at best, and at worst, is a subversion of the economy of the Lord, He Who taught believers that all Judaeans, all the tribe of Judah, all inhabitants of Judah, ALL who rejected Him were "this generation," a phrase which in Greek (n autn genea) means those who share traits, especially negative traits,  in this case the sin of having rejected Him. Those Judaeans who cut themselves off from Christ perpetuated a religion which defines itself in opposition to Him and His Church.

This religion is now called "Judaism," which is discontinuous with the revelation God gave Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and King David, since that revelation IS ABOUT CHRIST: this is a fact of salvation history. Judaism and its Jews, however, not only reject Christ but perversely excoriate Him: this is a fact of damnation history.  The religion of present-day Jews (the synagogue of satan) has nothing to do with what the Lord Who is Yahweh revealed to Old Israel in the Old Testament, a revelation that, properly understood---that is, according to the mind of the Church---is Christian, for it was CHRIST Who is revealing Himself to Old Israel: "If you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote of Me" (JOHN 5:46).  "Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms" (LUKE 24:44). "The words of Moses are the words of Christ" (Saint Irenaios of Lyons, AGAINST HERESIES, Book IV, Chapter 2). Find someone today who identifies himself as an "Orthodox" Jew and ask him if he believes that Christ is Yahweh (when you see the Greek words "o wv" in the nimbus that surrounds Christ's head in ikons, you are beholding the Church's teaching that Christ is “He Who Is”, Yahweh, "the God of the Old Testament," Who is actually the God of both the Old and the New) or if he believes the teaching of Saint Irenaios. No "real" Jew believes that the Lord Jesus Christ was a "real" Jew. Indeed, a "real" Jew believes that Christ perverted Judaism, that He was an apostate Jew.


"Jewish" means accepting the synagogue's view of Christ---a false prophet, a deceiver who led Israel astray: therefore this term cannot honestly be retrojected into the Old Testament, since the Old Testament righteous were responding not to proto-Talmudists but to the pre-incarnate Christ.  To call the Old Testament righteous men and women "Jewish" is to ahistorically assert that they were proto-Jews, spiritual ancestors of those who now inhabit today's synagogues. But this is not what the Lord Jesus Christ taught.  He says to those Pharisees (spiritual fathers of modern "Orthodox" Jews) who were rejecting Him by claiming that only Abraham was their father that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY" (JOHN 8:56). Again, all the Old Testament righteous were responding to the pre-incarnate Christ, Who in the Spirit reveals the Father.

The only problem is that the term Jewish is used in the NT, as I have postetd above.  Both Christ and Paul apply it to themselves.

Yes, the Church let St. Paul in:...Someone said "we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews" John 4:22....Romans 16:11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 01:36:21 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth