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Dan-Romania
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« on: April 06, 2009, 07:56:45 AM »

Hello , I have a question regarding the ancestral sin . I am interested both in orthodoxy and catholicism dogma about this . The orthodox dogma doesn`t really satisfies me . My opinion is that we all born sinners in sins , and that in Adam we all sinned , and in Adam we all die . Psalm 50 of David : Surely I was sinful at birth,
       sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.  From Romans 5. Also Romans 6 : 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And from Ezekiel 18 :  1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
       " 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
       and the children's teeth are set on edge'? Let us debate on this .
Peace .
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2009, 08:05:00 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=212
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 08:11:27 AM »

Dan,

The link that Ozgeorge provides above lists a number of threads where Ancestral Sin has been discussed here on OC.net.  You may want to take some time and see if your quotation has already been mentioned before; if not, then we should be able to discuss it at length here - but it would be a good thing to look over the old threads, in case there is already a good and helpful comment in the existing posts!
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 08:47:04 AM »

The orthodox dogma doesn`t really satisfies me .
Perhaps if you could tell us what you understand is the Orthodox teaching about Ancestral Sin, that would give us a place to begin.
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 09:06:24 AM »

I understand that Orthodoxy says that no one is born sinner and in sin , just inherit the weakness of sinning , and the falling nature of Adam . I am sorry , I taught there might be a topic about this , i`m sorry i opened a new topic .
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 09:23:25 AM »

I understand that Orthodoxy says that no one is born sinner and in sin , just inherit the weakness of sinning , and the falling nature of Adam . I am sorry , I taught there might be a topic about this , i`m sorry i opened a new topic .

Don't be sorry - if you hadn't opened the topic, you would have never gotten the list of references!
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 09:27:44 AM »

Hello , I have a question regarding the ancestral sin . I am interested both in orthodoxy and catholicism dogma about this . The orthodox dogma doesn`t really satisfies me . My opinion is that we all born sinners in sins , and that in Adam we all sinned , and in Adam we all die . Psalm 50 of David : Surely I was sinful at birth,
       sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.  From Romans 5. Also Romans 6 : 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And from Ezekiel 18 :  1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
       " 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
       and the children's teeth are set on edge'? Let us debate on this .
Peace .

We are sinful by history, not by nature.  The Fall obscures the Image, but does not destroy it, impedes the Likeness, but does not eliminate it.

You might tell us what you think is the Orthodox teaching, and what the Latin position is, to make sure we are speaking about the same things.
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 09:39:01 AM »

I heard something said by romanian orthodox people or clergy that we are all born in sin , in the sexual act is a filth and sin , remmeber the Law of Moses after the baby was born they had to bring offering to the Temple ; the orthodox people of clergy not many though from Romania said , that if Adam and Eve would not eat from the forbidden fruit than they will have the possibility to recreate, to give birth without an sexual act . I`m not sure who said it and if it was only one or more , but in remained in my head . And it is plausible in a sort from my point of view . Also let us remmember that in Adam we all sined and die and in Jesus we all resurrect . The Scripture says , also that parable from Ezekiel 18 , it has relevance , the parents eaten and the teeth of the children broke . Even God says that in the Law of Moses . But that stops , that is what God trought Ezekiel says in that chapter . That stops in Jesus Christ , in baptise all the sins are washed . In first Adam we all sinned and die , and in second Adam we receive grace and resurrection . The inheritance of the Ancestral sin , as I see it is trought sexual act , that is the line trought wich the sin of Adam is kept , and in Adam we all sinned . Remmeber David : In sins my mother begotten me . That is all , I am sorry for my english in this topic and alls , a peacefull Lent continuantly .
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 10:13:25 AM »

I heard something said by romanian orthodox people or clergy that we are all born in sin , in the sexual act is a filth and sin , remmeber the Law of Moses after the baby was born they had to bring offering to the Temple ; the orthodox people of clergy not many though from Romania said , that if Adam and Eve would not eat from the forbidden fruit than they will have the possibility to recreate, to give birth without an sexual act .

To my knowledge, this is not a doctrine but an opinion, expressed by some Fathers (particularly St. John Crysostomos wrote in his homilies on the book of Genesis that Adam and Eve did not have any sexual relations before the Fall). There is nothing about it in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed and there are no doctrinal decisions of the seven Ecumenical Councils that would make this a dogma that we are bound to believe. Personally, I do not believe in the literal Adam and Eve at all; so, to me, the question whether or not "they" had sex in the Paradise does not make any sense simply because there were no literal "first human couple." I understand the first chapters of Genesis not as a literal history but, rather, as a story about me - how I was created by God to grow in perfection and love, how I sinned, how I am separated from God and from life because of my sins, and how I am redeemed by the "seed of a woman" (Gen. 3:15) - our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Who became man born of a woman.
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 10:54:00 AM »

If the sexual act was a sin, why did God create it? I think sex was intended by God to be beautiful symbol of the love between a man and a woman. I thought the Eastern Orthodox believed likewise.
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 11:05:19 AM »

If the sexual act was a sin, why did God create it? I think sex was intended by God to be beautiful symbol of the love between a man and a woman. I thought the Eastern Orthodox believed likewise.

Most of us do; but there is a definite current of thought that acknowledges a fine line between beautiful and distorted, and one must be careful when approaching the topic of sex to distinguish between the two.  I suppose that's why the call for celibacy can be so strong: better to not have to toe the fine line, then attempt tightrope-walking.
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 11:28:36 AM »

If the sexual act was a sin, why did God create it? I think sex was intended by God to be beautiful symbol of the love between a man and a woman. I thought the Eastern Orthodox believed likewise.

Most of us do; but there is a definite current of thought that acknowledges a fine line between beautiful and distorted, and one must be careful when approaching the topic of sex to distinguish between the two.  I suppose that's why the call for celibacy can be so strong: better to not have to toe the fine line, then attempt tightrope-walking.
I can understand that. Even in marraige, if we don't have good intentions, the sex act can become distorted because the urge for sexuality is so powerful.
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 01:13:36 PM »

Then why the word between people who go to Church about no doing sex while or before communion , eating the Holy Bread and Wine ? By the way let us go back in the Law of Israel where the woman after getting birth to child need to bring offering to the Temple . I think it is somewere in Leviticus .
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 01:16:41 PM »

Then why the word between people who go to Church about no doing sex while or before communion , eating the Holy Bread and Wine ? By the way let us go back in the Law of Israel where the woman after getting birth to child need to bring offering to the Temple . I think it is somewere in Leviticus .
Because its a fast. Food is not evil but people fast before comunion.
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2009, 01:18:46 PM »

Then why the word between people who go to Church about no doing sex while or before communion , eating the Holy Bread and Wine ? By the way let us go back in the Law of Israel where the woman after getting birth to child need to bring offering to the Temple . I think it is somewere in Leviticus .
I don't think this rule forbidding sexual relations the night before Communion is based on any intrinsic abhorrence of sex.  ISTM that this rule is in place more to enable us to focus our whole minds and hearts on what we are about to do:  receive into our bodies Christ the very Life of all.
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 01:22:32 PM »

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD)
If, in the case of the worst sinners and of those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from Baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin [committed no personal sin], except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death form his first being born. For this very reason does he approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven of him are not his own but those of another. (Letters 64:5 of Cyprian and his 66 colleagues in Council to Fidus)
What do you all think?
Also, should this be in a new thread?
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 01:46:20 PM »

Then why the word between people who go to Church about no doing sex while or before communion , eating the Holy Bread and Wine ? By the way let us go back in the Law of Israel where the woman after getting birth to child need to bring offering to the Temple . I think it is somewere in Leviticus .

We also tell people not to eat food before Communion - not because Food is evil, but because we're preparing ourselves in a special way to receive the King of All.
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 02:01:44 PM »

Hmm , I agree but you should know this . Remmeber when David eated the bread of the priest ? The bread of the altar . He said we can eat them our "vessels" bodies are clean . For this before the Holy Communion the body must be clean . This is my opinion , but let`s discuss more about the Ancestral Sin , and not go into another subject .
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 03:11:25 PM »

Sin is an act. I don't see how one can be guilty of it before committing it. On the other hand we have the consequences of the first sin committed by Adam. The whole cosmos was affected by it and not just man. This is viewed as Ancestral sin. Ancestral sin is also responsible for the clouding of our Nous. Since the fall, man has a disposition towards sin but isn't sinful from birth. Anybody who has held a new born child in their hands can testify to that. While that same child will most certainly sin in there life time. It can never be correct to call it sin before the act. By saying so you would have to include Christ and the Theotocos in your assumptions. Unless of course, you believe in an immaculate conception. Your main concern with this theology should include the lack therefore of free will which every person including the above would have to for fit in order to be immaculately conceived. And by believing so you would have to concluded that people are subject to predestination and not under there own control. Then again worse things have happened. laugh
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 03:17:06 PM »

Your main concern with this theology should include the lack therefore of free will which every person including the above would have to for fit in order to be immaculately conceived.
This is actually based on an inaccurate understanding of the Immaculate Conception. Should I start a thread on this topic in the Catholic/Orthodox sub forum?
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 11:24:12 PM »

Your main concern with this theology should include the lack therefore of free will which every person including the above would have to for fit in order to be immaculately conceived.
This is actually based on an inaccurate understanding of the Immaculate Conception. Should I start a thread on this topic in the Catholic/Orthodox sub forum?
Sure why not. I'd love to hear it. Grin
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