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Question: Is it ok for Eastern Orthodox Christians to pray with Catholics?
Yes, definitely - 10 (25%)
Yes, but only outside the liturgy - 20 (50%)
No, never - 10 (25%)
Total Voters: 40

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Author Topic: Is it proper for Eastern Orthodox Christians to Pray with Catholics?  (Read 5656 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 06, 2009, 12:45:14 AM »

Just curious.
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2009, 01:15:33 AM »

Just curious.

The Church of Russia late last year issued a statement that we cannot pray at such things as ecumenical events, prayer services, etc.   It did not mention whether it is in order to pray privately at home....  The Russian Church said it would put out a fuller statement on these matters but it has not yet done so (probably the election of a new patriarch, the creation of new Church departments, etc. has meant other things have priority.)

The Greek Church is more open and is willing to allow common prayer.

The Serbs?  They shunned such prayer in Yugoslavia when I was a young monk.  I don't know what they might be doing these days in the States?

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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 01:46:29 AM »

Father here in the states ,growing up, the Late Vladika Dionisija that split the Serbian church,before the split Had a Roman Catholic Cardinal friend inside the Altar several times ,while he officiated at the hierarchical liturgy in his Latin vestments....So i don't know if it's allowed to pray or not with catholics considering these mixed signals were getting by our leaders... Huh Huh


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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 08:16:47 AM »

Father here in the states ,growing up, the Late Vladika Dionisija that split the Serbian church,before the split Had a Roman Catholic Cardinal friend inside the Altar several times ,while he officiated at the hierarchical liturgy in his Latin vestments....So i don't know if it's allowed to pray or not with catholics considering these mixed signals were getting by our leaders... Huh Huh

That is definitely one of the things that irks me - there needs to be a consistent message, at least to provide us a context in which to respond.  Having a RC bishop vested in the altar at Liturgy is way too much; having him sitting in the Nave non-vested isn't.  Saying an opening prayer for a meeting, said by the Orthodox clergyman?  Sounds good.  Together reading the creed without additions?  Sounds great.
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 08:27:17 AM »

The Apostolic Canons say:

Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Canon XLV.

Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon X.

If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

So if a Catholic is considered to be a heretic or an excommunicated person, the answer to your question is no.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, and many times it might be necessary to contradict the letter of the law where following the letter at the expense of love would be the greater sin.
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 09:05:29 AM »

I do every Sunday.
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 09:50:43 AM »

The Apostolic Canons say:

Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Canon XLV.

Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon X.

If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

So if a Catholic is considered to be a heretic or an excommunicated person, the answer to your question is no.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, and many times it might be necessary to contradict the letter of the law where following the letter at the expense of love would be the greater sin.

I am not a canon scholar, and this is just my personal opinion, but aren't these canons in place so that we (the Orthodox) do not put ourselves in danger of falling into heresy?  I can see how these canons are definitely necessary if the situation is such that we find ourselves in a Catholic Church saying the filioque.  That would mean that we ourselves are falling into heresy.  But I think it's a different story to stand side by side with a Catholic and say the Lord's prayer outside of the Liturgy. 

Do I have a problem with a vested Catholic clergyman in the altar during the Liturgy?  Absolutely (I have a problem with a NON-vested Catholic clergyman in the altar at ANY time, for that matter).  Do I believe we'll be condemned for praying with Catholics in an ecumenical prayer service where the prayers have been written out and agreed upon such that they are in line with our beliefs?  No, absolutely not.  Do I have a problem with praying with a Catholic in a time of need (i.e. by the bed of a dying Catholic who is a friend)?  Absolutely not.  Again, I think those canons are to prevent us from falling into whatever heresy the person we would be praying with holds.  If there is not a danger of falling into heresy, then I think it's cutting off our nose to spite our face to issue a blanket rule that, under no circumstances are we to pray with Catholics. 

I'm interested to hear other opinions on this.  What do our Catholic posters say about praying with the Orthodox?  Is it permitted?  I, too, am curious!

 
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 10:04:09 AM »

The Apostolic Canons say:

Canon LXIV.

If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Canon XLV.

Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon X.

If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated.

So if a Catholic is considered to be a heretic or an excommunicated person, the answer to your question is no.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, and many times it might be necessary to contradict the letter of the law where following the letter at the expense of love would be the greater sin.

I am not a canon scholar, and this is just my personal opinion, but aren't these canons in place so that we (the Orthodox) do not put ourselves in danger of falling into heresy?  I can see how these canons are definitely necessary if the situation is such that we find ourselves in a Catholic Church saying the filioque.  That would mean that we ourselves are falling into heresy.  But I think it's a different story to stand side by side with a Catholic and say the Lord's prayer outside of the Liturgy. 

Do I have a problem with a vested Catholic clergyman in the altar during the Liturgy?  Absolutely (I have a problem with a NON-vested Catholic clergyman in the altar at ANY time, for that matter).  Do I believe we'll be condemned for praying with Catholics in an ecumenical prayer service where the prayers have been written out and agreed upon such that they are in line with our beliefs?  No, absolutely not.  Do I have a problem with praying with a Catholic in a time of need (i.e. by the bed of a dying Catholic who is a friend)?  Absolutely not.  Again, I think those canons are to prevent us from falling into whatever heresy the person we would be praying with holds.  If there is not a danger of falling into heresy, then I think it's cutting off our nose to spite our face to issue a blanket rule that, under no circumstances are we to pray with Catholics. 

I'm interested to hear other opinions on this.  What do our Catholic posters say about praying with the Orthodox?  Is it permitted?  I, too, am curious!
Agreed. Couldn't of said it better myself. God Bless.
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 10:08:56 AM »

I am not a canon scholar, and this is just my personal opinion, but aren't these canons in place so that we (the Orthodox) do not put ourselves in danger of falling into heresy?  I can see how these canons are definitely necessary if the situation is such that we find ourselves in a Catholic Church saying the filioque.  That would mean that we ourselves are falling into heresy.  But I think it's a different story to stand side by side with a Catholic and say the Lord's prayer outside of the Liturgy. 

Do I have a problem with a vested Catholic clergyman in the altar during the Liturgy?  Absolutely (I have a problem with a NON-vested Catholic clergyman in the altar at ANY time, for that matter).  Do I believe we'll be condemned for praying with Catholics in an ecumenical prayer service where the prayers have been written out and agreed upon such that they are in line with our beliefs?  No, absolutely not.  Do I have a problem with praying with a Catholic in a time of need (i.e. by the bed of a dying Catholic who is a friend)?  Absolutely not.  Again, I think those canons are to prevent us from falling into whatever heresy the person we would be praying with holds.  If there is not a danger of falling into heresy, then I think it's cutting off our nose to spite our face to issue a blanket rule that, under no circumstances are we to pray with Catholics. 

I'm interested to hear other opinions on this.  What do our Catholic posters say about praying with the Orthodox?  Is it permitted?  I, too, am curious!

Reasonable position, indeed.
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 10:10:11 AM »

I am not a canon scholar, and this is just my personal opinion, but aren't these canons in place so that we (the Orthodox) do not put ourselves in danger of falling into heresy?  I can see how these canons are definitely necessary if the situation is such that we find ourselves in a Catholic Church saying the filioque.  That would mean that we ourselves are falling into heresy.  But I think it's a different story to stand side by side with a Catholic and say the Lord's prayer outside of the Liturgy. 

Do I have a problem with a vested Catholic clergyman in the altar during the Liturgy?  Absolutely (I have a problem with a NON-vested Catholic clergyman in the altar at ANY time, for that matter).  Do I believe we'll be condemned for praying with Catholics in an ecumenical prayer service where the prayers have been written out and agreed upon such that they are in line with our beliefs?  No, absolutely not.  Do I have a problem with praying with a Catholic in a time of need (i.e. by the bed of a dying Catholic who is a friend)?  Absolutely not.  Again, I think those canons are to prevent us from falling into whatever heresy the person we would be praying with holds.  If there is not a danger of falling into heresy, then I think it's cutting off our nose to spite our face to issue a blanket rule that, under no circumstances are we to pray with Catholics. 

I'm interested to hear other opinions on this.  What do our Catholic posters say about praying with the Orthodox?  Is it permitted?  I, too, am curious!

 

Beautifully said, presbytera.

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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 10:25:14 AM »

I am not a canon scholar, and this is just my personal opinion, but aren't these canons in place so that we (the Orthodox) do not put ourselves in danger of falling into heresy?

That's certainly an important reason, and one much more relevant in today's pluralistic society than at a time when Orthodoxy was the favoured religion of the Empire. However, I think it is also related to the concept of corporal prayer as the manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, united in a common faith.

I find nothing objectionable about the words of Surat al-Fatiha, for example, but I would not join in praying it with my Muslim friends who interpret those who "go astray" from the truth as referring to Christians. I'm not equating Muslims and Catholics, just trying to demonstrate how a difference in faith is not done away with just because we can find a set of words acceptable.

I could read the Creed, without the Filioque, with a Calvinist, yet we would not be meaning the same thing when we said "for our salvation." And if we do not mean the same thing, what would be the purpose of our common declaration?


I agree with you that there are times when prayer with Catholics is acceptable, and even right (your example of a dying friend being one such situation), but I think one should also consider whether prayer, like the sacraments, have their proper context in the Church of Christ and imply a common faith and life in Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 10:54:37 AM »

Forgive me my ignorance - are we talking about these canons, http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html ?

Where and when were these canons adopted?

Thanks!
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 10:56:55 AM »

I looked at the schedule of our Metropolitan for 2007 and it has for instance:

Quote
FEBRUARY

11 Johnstown, Pennsylvania
Christ the Saviour Cathedral
3 PM Ecumenical Service
Homilist: Fr. John Petro, Rector
SS. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Seminary

18 Forgiveness Sunday
Altoona, Pennsylvania
Blessed Sacrament Catholic Cathedral
3 PM Ecumenical Service

Those are typical type events.  Here is another instance of Metropolitan Nicholas responding to a tragedy in the commnunity.

http://www.ajdiocese.org/bish/1doc/10-Wilmore.pdf
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 11:09:49 AM »

Forgive me my ignorance - are we talking about these canons, http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html ?

Where and when were these canons adopted?

Thanks!

The canons, called the Apostolic Canons (or, as often they are referred to in other canonical and Synodal literature, the Canons of the Holy Apostles) are by tradition from the Apostolic or just post-Apostolic age.  They have been accepted into the Church by tradition from the earliest times, from what I've seen, and have been assumed to be binding on the whole Church by the Ecumenical Councils (as one can see from comments in some of the canons they have promulgated, or the acts of the synods themselves).
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2009, 11:24:19 AM »

^^Thank you, Cleveland!
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 11:57:32 AM »

Just curious.

We Eastern Orthodox Christians are Catholics and we pray only with Catholics. police
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 12:08:03 PM »

Having a RC bishop vested in the altar at Liturgy is way too much

If this ever happened, how should the Laity respond in the moment? Just out of curiosity.... Smiley
Has this ever happened? What are the chances nowadays? Undecided
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 12:27:30 PM »

Having a RC bishop vested in the altar at Liturgy is way too much

If this ever happened, how should the Laity respond in the moment? Just out of curiosity.... Smiley
Has this ever happened? What are the chances nowadays? Undecided

Thankfully, we've already resolved the question of "are the sacraments valid if the priest's a depraved sinner" in the Church; but well-reasoned dissent after that first instance is warranted.  If it's going to happen again (and usually one will know), then steer clear for the second time and go to another Church (if you have one close enough), or pray at home.  Sometimes speaking with the feet is more effective than the mouth.
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 12:29:12 PM »

I am not a canon scholar, and this is just my personal opinion, but aren't these canons in place so that we (the Orthodox) do not put ourselves in danger of falling into heresy?

That's certainly an important reason, and one much more relevant in today's pluralistic society than at a time when Orthodoxy was the favoured religion of the Empire. However, I think it is also related to the concept of corporal prayer as the manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, united in a common faith.

I find nothing objectionable about the words of Surat al-Fatiha, for example, but I would not join in praying it with my Muslim friends who interpret those who "go astray" from the truth as referring to Christians. I'm not equating Muslims and Catholics, just trying to demonstrate how a difference in faith is not done away with just because we can find a set of words acceptable.

I could read the Creed, without the Filioque, with a Calvinist, yet we would not be meaning the same thing when we said "for our salvation." And if we do not mean the same thing, what would be the purpose of our common declaration?


I agree with you that there are times when prayer with Catholics is acceptable, and even right (your example of a dying friend being one such situation), but I think one should also consider whether prayer, like the sacraments, have their proper context in the Church of Christ and imply a common faith and life in Christ.

Well said, Orthodox11.  I totally agree with you.  I specifically confined my comments to Catholics because, I think when you go farther beyond (such as Calvinists and eventually Muslims), there are much larger problems at hand, and, honestly, I'm not sure how I would deal with those.  Now of course, by the bed of a dying friend or loved one, their faith will not stand in the way of me praying, and praying with them.  That, specifically, is a delicate situation which I would handle with care so as NOT to confess something contrary to our faith, but I would, indeed, pray for and with them. 

In other cases, it is indeed more difficult and we must be careful and discerning.  I'm not sure how I would handle other situations, to be honest, except to let the Holy Spirit guide me.  In the example that you gave of saying the Creed with a Calvinist, of course our meaning is different.  But my confession of the creed, my meaning, my faith, is not affected by what HE means.  My meaning is clear, my meaning correct, and God knows that and knows the difference. 

I will say that I think the purpose of the common declaration is not to achieve unity in prayer, but unity in cause, so to speak.  Gathering together in an ecumenical service, we know, is NOT for the purpose of common faith, as our faiths are NOT common.  The purpose is more unity in cause-- for instance coming together in prayer over abortion or a tragedy in the community (like 9/11).  Ecumenical services do not unite us in faith, obviously.  If only it were that easy.  But they do unite us in "brotherhood" toward a common good, a common cause, and they advance the good feelings and Christian love that are necessary for open dialogue (that we might bring them to The Faith), for effecting change (such as in the case of abortion), and for ministering to the community (such as in the case of a tragedy like 9/11). 

That's why it always irks me when people say we should not engage in ecumenism.  IMHO, the purposes of ecumenism are those I've listed above, NOT uniting in a watered down faith.  The latter being what those against ecumenism often think.  This is a mistake, and not engaging in ecumenism is cutting off our nose to spite our face.  We do not do away with our differences in faith, simply agree on what we DO have in common for the purposes of whatever that particular event aims at.  It doesn't effect our confession of faith, we do not engage in heresy, but in compassion, mercy, and love, we recognize the importance of being present at such events, as we are THE Church and The Church SHOULD, no, MUST be heard on such issues.  We don't condone the heresies of the other faiths, we exercise the virtues of mercy, compassion, and love, for the sake of the people, that they may hear the Truth.


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« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 12:33:17 PM »

I went to  a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Chicago one year on Great and Holy Friday and Holy Saturday ,,
inside the altar with the Orthodox Metropolitan was a  eastern Catholic Bishop vested and orthodox priests maybe even eastern catholic priests counldn't tell though they all looked alike..
We all went in the procession around the Church 3 times Lead, by The Orthodox Metropolitan and the Eastern catholic Bishop and clergy orthodox and  eastern catholic ...
Again here at this sevice i recieved a mixed message....??
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 12:44:14 PM »

Having a RC bishop vested in the altar at Liturgy is way too much

If this ever happened, how should the Laity respond in the moment? Just out of curiosity.... Smiley
Has this ever happened? What are the chances nowadays? Undecided

Thankfully, we've already resolved the question of "are the sacraments valid if the priest's a depraved sinner" in the Church; but well-reasoned dissent after that first instance is warranted.  If it's going to happen again (and usually one will know), then steer clear for the second time and go to another Church (if you have one close enough), or pray at home.  Sometimes speaking with the feet is more effective than the mouth.
Doesn't this come dangerously close to Donatism?
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 12:56:04 PM »

There are always ways to avoid giving offence... one eminent example is Saint John of Kronstadt who died in 1909.   Miracles of healing just flowed from Saint John.  He was parish priest in the poor ship-building area of Saint Petersburg and he was frequently called to the bedside of the sick and the dying to pray, in the hope of healing.  This area of Petersburg has large numbers of Baptists.

When asked on these occasions to pray with the non-Orthodox he used to say: ""Let us now pray, you in your way and me in mine."

However, since the matter of holding to this has become unsettled in the diaspora among some of the Orthodox Churches, I would recommend trhat people in this situation discuss it with their spiritual father.     

I would be really interested in what our Greek brothers and sisters have to say,  For example, you  have recently had two great saints among you, the holy Paisios and Porphyrios who reposed in the 1990’s in Greece.  There is a general consensus, I think, that they will be canonised, eventually, as Orthodox Saints.   What is the contemporary teaching of these great elders to the modern world?  Did they, or other Greek elders, address this matter?

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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009, 01:00:36 PM »

I went to  a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Chicago one year on Great and Holy Friday and Holy Saturday ,,
inside the altar with the Orthodox Metropolitan was a  eastern Catholic Bishop vested and orthodox priests maybe even eastern catholic priests counldn't tell though they all looked alike..
We all went in the procession around the Church 3 times Lead, by The Orthodox Metropolitan and the Eastern catholic Bishop and clergy orthodox and  eastern catholic ...
Again here at this sevice i recieved a mixed message....??


I don't think I would have even stayed.  If I had known that there was a Catholic anyone, not to mention clergy, in the altar, I wouldn't have stuck around, personally.  I would have gone to services in another parish.
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009, 01:02:23 PM »

Thankfully, we've already resolved the question of "are the sacraments valid if the priest's a depraved sinner" in the Church; but well-reasoned dissent after that first instance is warranted.  If it's going to happen again (and usually one will know), then steer clear for the second time and go to another Church (if you have one close enough), or pray at home.  Sometimes speaking with the feet is more effective than the mouth.
Doesn't this come dangerously close to Donatism?

Um, no, it doesn't - in fact, my first statement explicitly refers to the Donatist heresy which we do not ascribe to:

Thankfully, we've already resolved the question of "are the sacraments valid if the priest's a depraved sinner" in the Church;

But reasoned dissent is necessary when the clergy are flaunting the canons (that's specifically why I don't disparage most Old Calendarists for their position).  If you see a heterodox clergyman in the sanctuary during Liturgy, vested or not, don't let that prevent you from partaking of the life-giving mysteries you have prepared for - the Body & Blood of Christ are not defiled.  However, if you know the clergyman is going to repeat the episode, then avoid the Church - not because you think the Eucharist is polluted somehow, but because you see the action as an empty one, one that does not befit the Church.
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2009, 01:03:47 PM »

Doesn't this come dangerously close to Donatism?

One thing I like about the Russians is that by means of clear and memorable "stories" they impress some truths on the minds and hearts of the faithful.  The one above about Saint John and praying with the heterodox is one example.

There is another story which addresses the donatism question...

An old granny used to see how the priest would arrive at church, bowed down with the weight of a body which he had to carry on his back everywhere he went.  He had murdered someone.  When he came to the church doors the body always slipped from his shoulders and he entered the house of God and served the holy Liturgy.   When he left the church he again picked up the burden of the dead body at the door.
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 01:30:45 PM »

Doesn't this come dangerously close to Donatism?

One thing I like about the Russians is that by means of clear and memorable "stories" they impress some truths on the minds and hearts of the faithful.  The one above about Saint John and praying with the heterodox is one example.

There is another story which addresses the donatism question...

An old granny used to see how the priest would arrive at church, bowed down with the weight of a body which he had to carry on his back everywhere he went.  He had murdered someone.  When he came to the church doors the body always slipped from his shoulders and he entered the house of God and served the holy Liturgy.   When he left the church he again picked up the burden of the dead body at the door.
So the priest will be judged for his evil crimes. But do his crimes mean he is unable to celebrate the Holy Mysteries for the faithful? Does his sanctity or lack thereof mean provide or withold the grace of God to the people in the Sacraments?
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 01:44:53 PM »

Doesn't this come dangerously close to Donatism?

One thing I like about the Russians is that by means of clear and memorable "stories" they impress some truths on the minds and hearts of the faithful.  The one above about Saint John and praying with the heterodox is one example.

There is another story which addresses the donatism question...

An old granny used to see how the priest would arrive at church, bowed down with the weight of a body which he had to carry on his back everywhere he went.  He had murdered someone.  When he came to the church doors the body always slipped from his shoulders and he entered the house of God and served the holy Liturgy.   When he left the church he again picked up the burden of the dead body at the door.
So the priest will be judged for his evil crimes. But do his crimes mean he is unable to celebrate the Holy Mysteries for the faithful? Does his sanctity or lack thereof mean provide or withold the grace of God to the people in the Sacraments?

Sorry,  the story about the priest who had to carry the corpse of the dead man on his shoulders (invisibly) was meant to make that clear but maybe the story only "works" for Russians?  Grin  Yes, he was able to serve the divine Liturgy and the other Holy Mysteries.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 01:51:07 PM »

Doesn't this come dangerously close to Donatism?

One thing I like about the Russians is that by means of clear and memorable "stories" they impress some truths on the minds and hearts of the faithful.  The one above about Saint John and praying with the heterodox is one example.

There is another story which addresses the donatism question...

An old granny used to see how the priest would arrive at church, bowed down with the weight of a body which he had to carry on his back everywhere he went.  He had murdered someone.  When he came to the church doors the body always slipped from his shoulders and he entered the house of God and served the holy Liturgy.   When he left the church he again picked up the burden of the dead body at the door.
So the priest will be judged for his evil crimes. But do his crimes mean he is unable to celebrate the Holy Mysteries for the faithful? Does his sanctity or lack thereof mean provide or withold the grace of God to the people in the Sacraments?

Sorry,  the story about the priest who had to carry the corpse of the dead man on his shoulders (invisibly) was meant to make that clear but maybe the story only "works" for Russians?  Grin  Yes, he was able to serve the divine Liturgy and the other Holy Mysteries.
Oh thank you for clarifying. I feel dense now.  Grin Not much of a poet myself.
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 01:54:45 PM »

These canons re still applicable. There purpose is to not make the heterodox believe there beliefs are on par with Orthodoxy, nor that we recognize there beliefs as being correct or that there a branch or lung of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 05:11:03 PM »

These canons re still applicable.
But in what way?
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2009, 02:01:03 AM »

Something very odd is going on here.  Reply #28 is not my post!  I wasn't even on "oc.net" "yesterday."  I had trouble logging on today and tonight; and I also had trouble posting this reply.
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2009, 02:14:59 AM »

Aren't we all of one God?  What difference does it make who we pray with?

Mrs. PB
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2009, 02:17:20 AM »

Does this mean I'm in trouble for going to a community prayer service at a synagogue and wore a yamulkah?

PB
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2009, 02:58:44 AM »

Aren't we all of one God?
My God is The Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Muslims and Jews say Christ is not God, therefore the Father cannot be the Father since He didn't beget anyone according to them.
So, while we all come from the same God, we don't all worship the same God.
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2009, 05:10:43 AM »

I remember one occasion at the hospital I work at when a Greek Orthodox priest administered the last rites to a Roman Catholic who was dying because the RC priest could not get to thew hospital during a snowstorm.
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2009, 07:51:01 AM »

Something very odd is going on here.  Reply #28 is not my post!  I wasn't even on "oc.net" "yesterday."  I had trouble logging on today and tonight; and I also had trouble posting this reply.

You're right - there must have been a malfunction in the database.

I think the post in question, quoted below, might be from Orthodoc, not you:

These canons re still applicable. There purpose is to not make the heterodox believe there beliefs are on par with Orthodoxy, nor that we recognize there beliefs as being correct or that there a branch or lung of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2009, 09:58:34 AM »

I remember one occasion at the hospital I work at when a Greek Orthodox priest administered the last rites to a Roman Catholic who was dying because the RC priest could not get to thew hospital during a snowstorm.
It certainly raises warm feelings to hear such stories but I think that this is contrary to Eastern Orthodox cannons. Out of respect for the EOs I wouldn't want something like this to happen. On the other hand, this priest was about to stand before the Judgement seat of God and needed God's grace in the last rights. This kind of story leaves me torn.
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2009, 12:49:17 PM »

Aren't we all of one God?  What difference does it make who we pray with?

Mrs. PB

I know how you feel.  I used to be an atheist, and it is a never-ending source of amusement to all the self-professed infidels out there, how we Christians never seem to get tired of finding ways to separate ourselves from each other.  Angry

FWIW, I understand that there need to be guidelines and boundaries to keep any "brand" of Christianity from being watered down or confused with any other ones.  But it's possible to go too far with that, too.

When a man is drowning, he needs CHRIST the SAVIOR - and a drowning man isn't going to be too picky about who offers Him.  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 04:28:11 PM »

I remember one occasion at the hospital I work at when a Greek Orthodox priest administered the last rites to a Roman Catholic who was dying because the RC priest could not get to thew hospital during a snowstorm.
It certainly raises warm feelings to hear such stories but I think that this is contrary to Eastern Orthodox cannons. Out of respect for the EOs I wouldn't want something like this to happen. On the other hand, this priest was about to stand before the Judgement seat of God and needed God's grace in the last rights. This kind of story leaves me torn.

Unless I am totally mistaken, I was once told that in the case of such dire emergencies as these when no RC priest is available, an orthodox priest can give last rites (or the Orthodox equivalent) and maybe even the Eucharist.  This is done out of Christian charity under tough circumstances.  But this is the one exception that proves the rule.
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2009, 05:13:06 PM »

I've heard that too.
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2009, 05:23:39 PM »

I remember one occasion at the hospital I work at when a Greek Orthodox priest administered the last rites to a Roman Catholic who was dying because the RC priest could not get to thew hospital during a snowstorm.
It certainly raises warm feelings to hear such stories but I think that this is contrary to Eastern Orthodox cannons. Out of respect for the EOs I wouldn't want something like this to happen. On the other hand, this priest was about to stand before the Judgement seat of God and needed God's grace in the last rights. This kind of story leaves me torn.

Unless I am totally mistaken, I was once told that in the case of such dire emergencies as these when no RC priest is available, an orthodox priest can give last rites (or the Orthodox equivalent) and maybe even the Eucharist.  This is done out of Christian charity under tough circumstances.  But this is the one exception that proves the rule.
Is this OK from the EO point of view as well?
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2009, 05:36:40 PM »

Unless I am totally mistaken, I was once told that in the case of such dire emergencies as these when no RC priest is available, an orthodox priest can give last rites (or the Orthodox equivalent) and maybe even the Eucharist.  This is done out of Christian charity under tough circumstances.  But this is the one exception that proves the rule.
Is this OK from the EO point of view as well?

These situations come under the little known Orthodox theology known as "The Theology of the Lost Wallet."

Three men are asked:  what would you do if you find a wallet with a large sum of money?

The first man says, I'd hand it in to the Police.

The second man says,  I'd keep it,  finders keepers.

The third man says, When I find the wallet I'll know what to do.

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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2009, 05:46:47 PM »

Unless I am totally mistaken, I was once told that in the case of such dire emergencies as these when no RC priest is available, an orthodox priest can give last rites (or the Orthodox equivalent) and maybe even the Eucharist.  This is done out of Christian charity under tough circumstances.  But this is the one exception that proves the rule.

There is absolutely no rule or any kind of episcopal direction which covers these circumstances but even the great and holy (and conservative) Saint John Maximovitch would give tacit approval in such emergencies.

Here is a real life event from the life of Archimandrite Ambrosios Pogodin.

"I had a minor experience, which I will now dare to relate. In 1952, I had a parish in Bradford, England. There were many refugees in this industrial city that had their own churches: Russians, Poles, Ukrainians and others. There was a substantial community of Galician Ukrainians here, who were Uniats. I was told that they were quite hostile towards us Russians.

"Once, at night, I had a call from the local hospital telling me that a woman "of your religion" was near death. Taking the Holy Gifts I hurried to the hospital. The night was not only dark but a heavy fog covered everything. One had to walk from one streetlight to another. I reached the hospital and was shown the ward where the seriously ill woman was laying in an oxygen tent. Here I learned that she was not Orthodox but a Galician Uniat. Her husband was sitting next to her, crying. I told him that she was not Orthodox but belonged to the Roman Catholic faith. It was urgent that any Roman Catholic priest be called. At the same time I assured the husband that I will not allow her to die without Communion, and if the Catholic priest could not come or does not come in time, I will give her Communion myself. The Catholic priest arrived quickly. He was an Englishman and did not know Russian or Ukrainian. I offered my help. I asked the sick woman if she repents of her sins and does she want to receive Communion. She answered, "Yes, Father" in her Ukrainian accent. I related her words for the priest and he gave her Communion.

"I was at the hospital several days later and was overjoyed to see that the sick woman was recovering quickly, and she was happy to see me. After this, I was walking on the street past a Galician club and was pleasantly surprised when all those who were outside the building doffed their hats and greeted me, a Russian priest, warmly. I told of this to our great hierarch, Archbishop John [Maksimovich] and said to him that I would have given Communion to the dying woman even though she was a Uniat. After this I was ready to accept any punishment that the Holy Orthodox Church would give me. Archbishop John’s reply was worthy of his sanctity and love towards people: "No punishment would have been given to you."

See Appendix 3 at
http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/pogodin-reception/reception-appendices.html

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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2009, 05:49:54 PM »

^ What do most U.S. Eastern Orthodox Christians think of this concept?
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2009, 05:56:07 PM »

^ What do most U.S. Eastern Orthodox Christians think of this concept?

It is not a concept.  It falls into the category of "The Theology of the Lost Wallet."
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