OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 06:55:06 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Augustine the Orthodox Bishop  (Read 3949 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« on: April 05, 2009, 10:24:31 PM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?
Logged
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 802


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 10:44:20 PM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?

here is an article on this: http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/articles/fathers/1007.pdf
Logged
StGeorge
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 707


St. George


« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 11:02:57 PM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?

Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a fine work on Blessed Augustine and his place in the Orthodox Church. 
See: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0938635123/ref=cm_rdp_product
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 12:39:12 AM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?
I do not intend to sway you either way but I am curious about what you think is un-Catholic or un-Orthodox about St. Augustine.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 12:46:32 AM »

[I do not intend to sway you either way but I am curious about what you think is un-Catholic or un-Orthodox about St. Augustine.

Two major items come to mind...

His teaching of

mass damnation

and

predestination.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 12:49:23 AM »

[I do not intend to sway you either way but I am curious about what you think is un-Catholic or un-Orthodox about St. Augustine.

Two major items come to mind...

His teaching of

mass damnation

and

predestination.
Well, predistination is not un-Catholic and I don't think its un-Orthodox, as long as its not Calvinism. That being said, I am not as familiar with Augustine as I am with other saints. Did he believe in double predistination (i.e. that some are reprobrate since before they were created)?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 01:05:06 AM »

That being said, I am not as familiar with Augustine as I am with other saints. Did he believe in double predistination (i.e. that some are reprobrate since before they were created)?

Absolutely.  He taught that God wills the damnation of all mankind.  We all constitute what Augustine calls the *massa damnata et damnabilis."   He taught that in His sovereign mercy God chooses to save *some* of mankind and that is quite irrespective of their sins or virtues. 

People think that Calvin made up this abhorrent doctrine on his own, or they think that he took aspects of Augustine's writings and exaggerated them.  He didn't.  He cribbed it all from Augustine. 
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,808



« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 07:26:30 AM »

That being said, I am not as familiar with Augustine as I am with other saints. Did he believe in double predistination (i.e. that some are reprobrate since before they were created)?

Absolutely.  He taught that God wills the damnation of all mankind.  We all constitute what Augustine calls the *massa damnata et damnabilis."   He taught that in His sovereign mercy God chooses to save *some* of mankind and that is quite irrespective of their sins or virtues. 

People think that Calvin made up this abhorrent doctrine on his own, or they think that he took aspects of Augustine's writings and exaggerated them.  He didn't.  He cribbed it all from Augustine. 

Who was a recovering Manichean.  St. Augustine revised his thoughts later in life on a lot of issues.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 10:22:56 AM »


Who was a recovering Manichean.  St. Augustine revised his thoughts later in life on a lot of issues.
Fair enough. What do you think that his views on predistination became later in life?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 12:08:30 PM »


Who was a recovering Manichean.  St. Augustine revised his thoughts later in life on a lot of issues.
Fair enough. What do you think that his views on predistination became later in life?

As far as I am aware, St Augustine did not change his teaching on predestination.

The changes in his theology are discussed by him in a book he wrote in later life called "Retractationes."

One of the notable changes was his view of who or what "the rock" is.  "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church."  Earlier he had believed that the Rock was Peter, but in his mature years he came to believe that it was not Peter but the faith of Peter.

Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 12:41:41 PM »

What kind of Work is "Retractions"? I didn't see it on New Advent.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 12:46:20 PM »

What kind of Work is "Retractions"? I didn't see it on New Advent.

They've got excerpts from it there; for example:  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 12:46:46 PM »

What kind of Work is "Retractions"? I didn't see it on New Advent.

They've got excerpts from it there; for example:  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm
Thanks a bunch.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 12:49:28 PM »


Who was a recovering Manichean.  St. Augustine revised his thoughts later in life on a lot of issues.
Fair enough. What do you think that his views on predistination became later in life?

As far as I am aware, St Augustine did not change his teaching on predestination.

The changes in his theology are discussed by him in a book he wrote in later life called "Retractationes."

One of the notable changes was his view of who or what "the rock" is.  "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church."  Earlier he had believed that the Rock was Peter, but in his mature years he came to believe that it was not Peter but the faith of Peter.


In which chapter does he "retract" his view St. Peter?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2009, 12:53:13 PM »

I don't think he really "retracted" any of his views, in the sense that we think of the word "retractions".  According to Wiki,
Quote
The English translation of the title has led some to assume that at the end of his career, Augustine retreated from his earlier theological positions. In fact, the Latin title literally means 're-treatments" (not "Retractions") and though in this work Augustine suggested what he would have said differently, it provides little in the way of actual "retraction." It does, however, give the reader a rare picture of the development of a writer and his final thoughts.
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 12:58:03 PM »

Is this the section being referred to?

Quote
[In my first book against Donatus] I mentioned somewhere with reference to the apostle Peter that 'the Church is founded upon him as upon a rock.' This meaning is also sung by many lips in the lines of blessed Ambrose, where, speaking of the domestic cock, he says: 'When it crows, he, the rock of the Church, absolves from sin.'

But I realize that I have since frequently explained the words of our Lord: 'Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church', to the effect that they should be understood as referring to him Peter confessed when he said: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', and as meaning that Peter having been named after this rock, figured the person of the Church, which is built upon this rock and has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

For what was said to him was not 'Thou art rock', but 'Thou art Peter'. But the rock was Christ, having confessed whom (even as the whole Church confesses) Simon was named Peter. Which of these interpretations is more likely to be correct, let the reader choose.
Retractations,1:21(A.D. 427),in GILES, 177
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 12:59:57 PM »

Is this the section being referred to?

Quote
[In my first book against Donatus] I mentioned somewhere with reference to the apostle Peter that 'the Church is founded upon him as upon a rock.' This meaning is also sung by many lips in the lines of blessed Ambrose, where, speaking of the domestic cock, he says: 'When it crows, he, the rock of the Church, absolves from sin.'

But I realize that I have since frequently explained the words of our Lord: 'Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church', to the effect that they should be understood as referring to him Peter confessed when he said: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', and as meaning that Peter having been named after this rock, figured the person of the Church, which is built upon this rock and has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

For what was said to him was not 'Thou art rock', but 'Thou art Peter'. But the rock was Christ, having confessed whom (even as the whole Church confesses) Simon was named Peter. Which of these interpretations is more likely to be correct, let the reader choose.
Retractations,1:21(A.D. 427),in GILES, 177

Doesn't seem to be out of line with Catholic theology really.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
StGeorge
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 707


St. George


« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 01:14:30 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 

Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 01:14:47 PM »

I don't think he really "retracted" any of his views, in the sense that we think of the word "retractions".  According to Wiki,
Quote
The English translation of the title has led some to assume that at the end of his career, Augustine retreated from his earlier theological positions. In fact, the Latin title literally means 're-treatments" (not "Retractions") and though in this work Augustine suggested what he would have said differently, it provides little in the way of actual "retraction." It does, however, give the reader a rare picture of the development of a writer and his final thoughts.
This is very important. Thanks for bringing this up.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 01:15:16 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 6,034



« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 01:18:12 PM »

Augustine is an Orthodox saint.  It is improper, as some, such as Fr. Romanides and Fr. Michael Azkoul, to call him an heretic.  He may have been wrong in some of his teachings and beliefs and went off the deep end, but so did St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian.  We have not stricken their names from the calendar and we should refer to him as St. Augustine not as Blessed Augustine.  A saint is a saint.

Also, keep in mind that the Roman Catholics and Protestants (particularly Calvinists) who quote Augustine quote him out of context and twist his words to justify their theologies.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 01:24:31 PM »

Augustine is an Orthodox saint.  It is improper, as some, such as Fr. Romanides and Fr. Michael Azkoul, to call him an heretic.  He may have been wrong in some of his teachings and beliefs and went off the deep end, but so did St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian.  We have not stricken their names from the calendar and we should refer to him as St. Augustine not as Blessed Augustine.  A saint is a saint.
Very charitable understanding of St. Augustine.
Also, keep in mind that the Roman Catholics and Protestants (particularly Calvinists) who quote Augustine quote him out of context and twist his words to justify their theologies.
Not such a charitable understanding of Catholics and Protestants.  Grin
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009, 01:30:43 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Saint Augustine should be judged by his peers, by the quite large number of Church Fathers who were writing at his time and later on. It is from the consensus of the Fathers that true doctrine emerges and not from an emphasis on any one of them. One or two, for example taught Apocatastasis - that in the end all will be saved, so that God will have the final victory, "God being all in all." They were mistaken and the Church Fathers naturally corrected that mistake.

The Fathers as a whole were not well acquainted with what Saint Augustine wrote. He was one of the first of the Western Fathers to write in Latin and not in Greek.  The majority of the Church had no access to his theological writings until the 9th century when some of them were put into Greek.

 He is mentioned with high favour at one of the Ecumenical Councils. As his theology began to come to the attention of other Church Fathers, their reaction to his theological errors was quite charitable - they insisted that we must not be so gross as to "uncover our father's nakedness" but we should leave his errors to one side and look only at his true and excellent theology. And this is precisly what, for example, the Council of Orange did - it politely ignored his slips in theology on predestination and the damnation of children and the whole rather nasty "massa damnata" teaching and it chose the "good parts."

One of his commentators, Saint Photius, the Patriarch of Constantinople, had such a high respect for Augustine that (even though he wrote a lot about Augustine's errors) in his charity he actually thought that Augustine had not written them but that they were later interpolations into Augustine's writings at the hands of heretics.

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009, 01:34:31 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

Well, there was the Council of Orange which adopted some of St Augustine's teaching on grace but refused to dogmatize his errors on this matter.

You could look at Saint Photios' "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit" where he looks at St Augustine's pneumatology and corrects the errors.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2009, 01:38:27 PM »

Also, keep in mind that the Roman Catholics and Protestants (particularly Calvinists) who quote Augustine quote him out of context and twist his words to justify their theologies.

The awful thing is that, for the most part, Calvinists are not misquoting Augustine.  He actually did teach the dreadful things which we associate with fundamental Calvinism.

There is a small article on this by the renowned Catholic writer Fr William Most, on the EWTN site.

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
Fr. William Most 
http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 01:39:37 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

Well, there was the Council of Orange which adopted some of St Augustine's teaching on grace but refused to dogmatize his errors on this matter.

You could look at Saint Photios' "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit" where he looks at St Augustine's pneumatology and corrects the errors.

I will take a look at the Council of Orange. I'm not so much concerned with Photius' perception of Augustine as he was of a much later date and one who went into open schism with my communion.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 01:51:00 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

Well, there was the Council of Orange which adopted some of St Augustine's teaching on grace but refused to dogmatize his errors on this matter.

You could look at Saint Photios' "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit" where he looks at St Augustine's pneumatology and corrects the errors.

I will take a look at the Council of Orange. I'm not so much concerned with Photius' perception of Augustine as he was of a much later date and one who went into open schism with my communion.

I haven't checked but I would imagine that the things which worried Saint Photios in Saint Augustine (and which he thought cannot have been Augustine's words but later interpolations) are the same things which the Church of Rome had already rejected.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 01:54:41 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

Well, there was the Council of Orange which adopted some of St Augustine's teaching on grace but refused to dogmatize his errors on this matter.

You could look at Saint Photios' "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit" where he looks at St Augustine's pneumatology and corrects the errors.

I will take a look at the Council of Orange. I'm not so much concerned with Photius' perception of Augustine as he was of a much later date and one who went into open schism with my communion.

I haven't checked but I would imagine that the things which worried Saint Photios in Saint Augustine (and which he thought cannot have been Augustine's words but later interpolations) are the same things which the Church of Rome had already rejected.
On the Holy Spirit as well?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 02:14:03 PM »


I haven't checked but I would imagine that the things which worried Saint Photios in Saint Augustine (and which he thought cannot have been Augustine's words but later interpolations) are the same things which the Church of Rome had already rejected.
On the Holy Spirit as well?

It's a while since I have thought about it but I recall that there are Orthodox theologians who believe that the Augustinian filioque is within the parameters of acceptable theology.  Apparently it was the later developments in the West which went astray.

If we have Apotheoun (Byzantine Catholic) with us on the forum he has all this at his fingertips and could explain it for us.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,808



« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 02:17:29 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

Well, there was the Council of Orange which adopted some of St Augustine's teaching on grace but refused to dogmatize his errors on this matter.

You could look at Saint Photios' "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit" where he looks at St Augustine's pneumatology and corrects the errors.

I will take a look at the Council of Orange. I'm not so much concerned with Photius' perception of Augustine as he was of a much later date and one who went into open schism with my communion.

I haven't checked but I would imagine that the things which worried Saint Photios in Saint Augustine (and which he thought cannot have been Augustine's words but later interpolations) are the same things which the Church of Rome had already rejected.
On the Holy Spirit as well?
At the time, in the Creed, yes.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2009, 02:25:35 PM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

Well, there was the Council of Orange which adopted some of St Augustine's teaching on grace but refused to dogmatize his errors on this matter.

You could look at Saint Photios' "Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit" where he looks at St Augustine's pneumatology and corrects the errors.

I will take a look at the Council of Orange. I'm not so much concerned with Photius' perception of Augustine as he was of a much later date and one who went into open schism with my communion.

I haven't checked but I would imagine that the things which worried Saint Photios in Saint Augustine (and which he thought cannot have been Augustine's words but later interpolations) are the same things which the Church of Rome had already rejected.
On the Holy Spirit as well?
At the time, in the Creed, yes.
I am gonna go ahead an YAWN on this becasue we all know that, although its insertion into the Creed was rejected, the theology of the Filioque was alread (since the time of the Fathers) well established in the West.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2009, 02:32:35 PM »

I am gonna go ahead an YAWN on this becasue we all know that, although its insertion into the Creed was rejected, the theology of the Filioque was alread (since the time of the Fathers) well established in the West.

But  .....

At this early period we are not looking at the heretical teaching which gradually came into existence in the West.

We are looking at a teaching which can be encompassed by orthodox catholic theology.

(Where's Apotheoun when you need him?)
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2009, 02:37:23 PM »


But  .....

At this early period we are not looking at the heretical teaching which gradually came into existence in the West.
You mean the orthdox teaching still held by the west and taught by many Fathers.

We are looking at a teaching which can be encompassed by orthodox catholic theology.

(Where's Apotheoun when you need him?)
hmmmmm...
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2009, 08:27:03 PM »

Interesting.

Some of this does tend to put a damper on one's enthusiasm for Augustine.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2009, 08:50:42 PM »



Holy Father Augustine, pray for us!
Logged
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2009, 10:51:33 PM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?
I do not intend to sway you either way but I am curious about what you think is un-Catholic or un-Orthodox about St. Augustine.

Pardon the inarticulate reply, but he just doesn't sound Catholic to me.  In my encounters with Catholic apologists there is an in-your-face confrontation with papal authority on about the third breath - that is absent.  Mary does not receive the emphasis modern Catholics give her.  There does not seem to be any emphasis or even exhortation towards confessing your sins to a priest.  All the things that I had come to expect out of the mouth of a Catholic apologist were absent, and instead he spoke of faith and predestination.  But he also believes in Purgatory (which I am informed is exclusively Catholic) as shown in City of God and sacramental regeneration. At one point I had quite a list, and I approached him as either/or on Catholic/Protestant.  Since he didn't seem to fit there, I thought maybe he would fit as an Orthodox. From the thread so far that is a "maybe".  The cut and paste apologists at CA like to quote him when he is in agreement with Catholic theology but are rather quiet about some of his rejected statements.

If I got it as right as he did, though, I would be doing pretty well.  I don't understand a lot of what he wrote, as it seems to be available in archaic translations, and he is susceptible to the accusation that he was more interested in rhetorical style than lucidity.  And I don't have a PhD in philosophy, so he can be tough sledding anyway.

I guess he was a rather odd duck all around.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2009, 12:12:01 AM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?
I do not intend to sway you either way but I am curious about what you think is un-Catholic or un-Orthodox about St. Augustine.

Pardon the inarticulate reply, but he just doesn't sound Catholic to me.  In my encounters with Catholic apologists there is an in-your-face confrontation with papal authority on about the third breath - that is absent.  Mary does not receive the emphasis modern Catholics give her.  There does not seem to be any emphasis or even exhortation towards confessing your sins to a priest.  All the things that I had come to expect out of the mouth of a Catholic apologist were absent, and instead he spoke of faith and predestination.  But he also believes in Purgatory (which I am informed is exclusively Catholic) as shown in City of God and sacramental regeneration. At one point I had quite a list, and I approached him as either/or on Catholic/Protestant.  Since he didn't seem to fit there, I thought maybe he would fit as an Orthodox. From the thread so far that is a "maybe".  The cut and paste apologists at CA like to quote him when he is in agreement with Catholic theology but are rather quiet about some of his rejected statements.

If I got it as right as he did, though, I would be doing pretty well.  I don't understand a lot of what he wrote, as it seems to be available in archaic translations, and he is susceptible to the accusation that he was more interested in rhetorical style than lucidity.  And I don't have a PhD in philosophy, so he can be tough sledding anyway.

I guess he was a rather odd duck all around.
When it comes to Mary, he would not allow others to accuse her of sin.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2009, 12:12:26 AM »



Holy Father Augustine, pray for us!
Indeed, pray for us.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
StGeorge
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 707


St. George


« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 12:57:35 AM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

St. John Cassian, for one.

 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 01:12:19 AM by StGeorge » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2009, 10:07:11 AM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

St. John Cassian, for one.

 
Thanks. Do you have a source on this?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
StGeorge
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 707


St. George


« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2009, 11:02:47 AM »

The Ecumenical Councils list Augustine amongst the holy Fathers.  He most certainly was an Orthodox Bishop, even as some of his opinions were misguided and fraternally corrected. 


Who "fraternally corrected" him?

St. John Cassian, for one.

 
Thanks. Do you have a source on this?

Father Seraphim Rose writes of it in the work I linked in my earlier post.  I have not looked too much more into it, but it's interesting that the Catholic Encyclopedia article on John Cassian mentions his reaction to Augustine's theology concerning predestination. 

See last paragraph of: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03404a.htm

The article names John Cassian as the originator of the Semipelagian heresy.  It would seem that the East recognizes St. John Cassian as correcting some points of Augustine, while the West sees criticisms of Augustine's teachings on grace and predestination as deviating into the Pelagian or Semipelagian camp.  St. Vincent of Lerins, or his writings at least, has also been attributed SemiPelagian tendencies.  It is believed that several of St. Vincent's writings were actively written against the teachings of Augustine. 

After St. Augustine's death, Prosper of Aquitaine engaged in a vehement defense of the teachings of Augustine.  He defended Augustine against Pelagians primarily, but also against those considered Semipelagians.  Interestingly, Prosper is a saint in the Latin Church, but not in the Orthodox Church (at least to my knowledge.  Some Western Rite Orthodox may celebrate him).  Prosper of Aquitaine became an advisor to St. Pope Leo of Rome.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 11:15:09 AM by StGeorge » Logged
StGeorge
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 707


St. George


« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2009, 11:49:07 AM »

Part of the reason I am over here is to seek an explanation.  Augustine wrote several documents related to the faith in general. His "Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love",  "Instructions to Catuchemens" and "On the Faith and the Creed" were some of them.  I was hoping to tell whether the Catholics or the Protestants are closer to Augustine, portrayed by both as a faithful representative of the apostolic tradition. 

I know little of Orthodoxy.  I find Augustine neither Catholic or Protestant.  He is "other".  The only "other" I know of that he could reasonably be is Orthodox, which doesn't sound right, as he is not exactly highly regarded, so I have heard, among the Orthodox.  Is that correct? Why? He was a bishop of the catholic-orthodox church before the Great Schism.  He defended the united church against numerous heresies.   What is going on here?
I do not intend to sway you either way but I am curious about what you think is un-Catholic or un-Orthodox about St. Augustine.

Pardon the inarticulate reply, but he just doesn't sound Catholic to me.  In my encounters with Catholic apologists there is an in-your-face confrontation with papal authority on about the third breath - that is absent.  Mary does not receive the emphasis modern Catholics give her.  There does not seem to be any emphasis or even exhortation towards confessing your sins to a priest.  All the things that I had come to expect out of the mouth of a Catholic apologist were absent, and instead he spoke of faith and predestination.  But he also believes in Purgatory (which I am informed is exclusively Catholic) as shown in City of God and sacramental regeneration. At one point I had quite a list, and I approached him as either/or on Catholic/Protestant.  Since he didn't seem to fit there, I thought maybe he would fit as an Orthodox. From the thread so far that is a "maybe".  The cut and paste apologists at CA like to quote him when he is in agreement with Catholic theology but are rather quiet about some of his rejected statements.

If I got it as right as he did, though, I would be doing pretty well.  I don't understand a lot of what he wrote, as it seems to be available in archaic translations, and he is susceptible to the accusation that he was more interested in rhetorical style than lucidity.  And I don't have a PhD in philosophy, so he can be tough sledding anyway.

I guess he was a rather odd duck all around.

Augustine in his work Faith, Hope and Charity does explicitly write of a "purgatorial fire" that follows this life.  However, in this book at least, he approaches purgatorial fire as a question: are faithful Christians saved through a purgatorial fire?  He furthermore separates the sufferings of these departed souls from the sufferings of the condemned.  What I do not see in Augustine is the pinning of a place/state separate from Heaven and Hell where/in which this suffering of temporal punishments occurs. 

I've read several places where St. Augustine speaks of the Church praying and making offerings for the departed.  However, he does not mention them as suffering in Purgatory.       
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »


Pardon the inarticulate reply, but he just doesn't sound Catholic to me.  In my encounters with Catholic apologists there is an in-your-face confrontation with papal authority on about the third breath - that is absent.  Mary does not receive the emphasis modern Catholics give her.  There does not seem to be any emphasis or even exhortation towards confessing your sins to a priest. 

Well, you must understand, we don't believe the faith once delivered to the saints stays encased in amber. Doctrine develops, as a tree does from a seed, with different emphases at different times.* Oftentimes the impetus for writing theology is to refute something else, and such was the case with Augustine. So he has more emphases on things which were more controversial at the time. For example, with regard to the role of Mary, Augustine may have not written as much about it because it was not much of a controversy in the West (as opposed to the East, where Archbishop Nestorius of Constantinople caused the convening of the Council of Ephesus on the question).

*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_doctrine

http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,620


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2009, 01:32:22 PM »

I must say that just because something is not in the Coptic Synexarium does not make the person not a saint.  We do have a St. Augustine Coptic Orthodox Church in Georgia.  HH Pope Shenouda praises him as saint along with his mother St. Monica.

I too consider him a saint and find his work "Confessions" very inspiring, especially for me, a sinner.



« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:34:03 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2009, 10:53:25 PM »

I am somewhat dissatisfied with this thread, as it seems it touches on many questions, none deeply enough for resolution in one thread: did Augustine originate original sin, what is is proper place in the panoply of saints, was he indeed a recovering Manichee or a converted sinner, etc.  I find other threads on this forum on Augustine, and scattered comments, such as in the Catholic encyclopedia, that indicate the truth is more intricate and deeper than we have arrived at. 

At the same time I am delighted, in that I now see much more about Augustine than I had, from other viewpoints than I was aware of.  I have a slow and non-theological brain that I drag along to this threads, and it mutters inattentively things like: when are we going to bed, when I want to discuss theology.  It likes small words and sentences, and theologians delight in long words and long treatises. Augustine, it seems, is not so much a knife edge between Catholicism and Protestant thought but more like a labyrinth.

Is there Augustine bashing (a new term)? Yes. Is there perhaps an overemphasis on his position in the church (meaning the catholic-orthodox-protestant-other total of all Christians, which is a subject in itself)? Some say yes, others deny it.
Logged
Tags: St. Augustine 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 72 queries.