OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 11:09:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: That Cooperation Thing  (Read 9335 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« on: April 03, 2009, 07:22:49 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 07:59:44 PM »

The Orthodox position is that justification is by faith alone and faith is put in your heart by God.
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,577



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 09:12:22 PM »

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 10:09:47 PM »

I think one of the things that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

It sounds like you learned a lot while in the Church.

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,577



WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 10:33:12 PM »

It sounds like you learned a lot while in the Church.
I'm sure I did. I'm not putting down Christians. Many of them are good people who are sure to share the world to come. It just didn't work for me.

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
I fail to see how the late Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu's opinion is of any relevance. I could go on about how what a lying, money-hungry self promoting publicity hound she was, but the work's been done for me: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17581.0.html
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2009, 08:41:04 AM »

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
I fail to see how the late Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu's opinion is of any relevance. I could go on about how what a lying, money-hungry self promoting publicity hound she was, but the work's been done for me: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17581.0.html

c'mon mate give it a rest
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,577



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2009, 09:08:43 AM »

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
I fail to see how the late Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu's opinion is of any relevance. I could go on about how what a lying, money-hungry self promoting publicity hound she was, but the work's been done for me: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17581.0.html

c'mon mate give it a rest

Alveus brought the topic up. I was only responding.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2009, 10:18:16 AM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

It's called synergy in Orthodoxy, what the Bible calls it.  I Cor. 3:9.

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

Like Islam?

Deeds without creeds are loose canons.

It sounds like you learned a lot while in the Church.
I'm sure I did. I'm not putting down Christians. Many of them are good people who are sure to share the world to come. It just didn't work for me.

John 14:6.

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
I fail to see how the late Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu's opinion is of any relevance. I could go on about how what a lying, money-hungry self promoting publicity hound she was,

Yeah, that's why she died in the lap of luxury.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 10:25:58 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,577



WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2009, 01:45:43 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

It's called synergy in Orthodoxy, what the Bible calls it.  I Cor. 3:9.

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

Like Islam?

Deeds without creeds are loose canons.

I disagree. We wil be judged on what we do, not what beliefs we held.

It sounds like you learned a lot while in the Church.
I'm sure I did. I'm not putting down Christians. Many of them are good people who are sure to share the world to come. It just didn't work for me.

John 14:6.

ZZZzzzz

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
I fail to see how the late Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu's opinion is of any relevance. I could go on about how what a lying, money-hungry self promoting publicity hound she was,

Yeah, that's why she died in the lap of luxury.

There is a whole thread on her I'm not going to repeat it.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2009, 01:57:00 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2009, 02:17:50 PM »

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

Like Islam?

Deeds without creeds are loose canons.

I disagree. We wil be judged on what we do, not what beliefs we held.

You believe wrong.

It sounds like you learned a lot while in the Church.
I'm sure I did. I'm not putting down Christians. Many of them are good people who are sure to share the world to come. It just didn't work for me.
John 14:6.
ZZZzzzz

Matthew 25:1 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 “Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3 “For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5 “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. 6 “But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 “Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 “The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 “But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11 “Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12 “But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 “Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

You snooze, you lose.

Anyway, how would Mother Teresa feel about your conversion to Judaism?
I fail to see how the late Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu's opinion is of any relevance. I could go on about how what a lying, money-hungry self promoting publicity hound she was,
Yeah, that's why she died in the lap of luxury.
There is a whole thread on her I'm not going to repeat it.

No need.  A cursory glance reveals the facts.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 02:24:32 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2009, 07:55:30 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??
Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2009, 09:14:35 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

"Our Church, however, teaches that our personal salvation is neither a gift, nor a simple work, but rather a process and an undertaking that matures or develops gradually and is realized in the co-operation of two persons: God and man. On the part of God, Divine Grace (His uncreated Divine Energy) is offered to us, while for man's part, faith and righteous deeds are necessary. Consequently, the prerequisites for our personal salvation are the following: the Divine Grace or uncreated Divine Energy of God and the faith and virtuous deeds of man.

Our objective salvation is realized only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whereas our personal or subjective salvation, which in the language of the New Testament is called righteousness, holiness, or salvation (in the narrow sense), is realized as a continuance of this objective salvation, with our personal energy or activity acting in co-operation with Divine Energy or Grace.
...
The truth is that Christ has brought salvation to everyone, something theologians have labelled general (or objective) salvation. And yet, everyone does not actualize this objective salvation, only those who seek and pursue it. While objective salvation is granted to every human being, subjective or personal salvation depends on the intent of man. Those who desire to be saved and work toward that goal receive divine Grace as their aide and guide. This Grace does not work in us violently; rather it abides with us peren- nially as a specific offering for the work of our salvation. Subsequently, it is not possible for us to speak of an unconditional predestination and its inadequate presuppositions for salvation." - Elder Cleopa

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_salvation.aspx
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 09:52:04 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

"Our Church, however, teaches that our personal salvation is neither a gift, nor a simple work, but rather a process and an undertaking that matures or develops gradually and is realized in the co-operation of two persons: God and man. On the part of God, Divine Grace (His uncreated Divine Energy) is offered to us, while for man's part, faith and righteous deeds are necessary. Consequently, the prerequisites for our personal salvation are the following: the Divine Grace or uncreated Divine Energy of God and the faith and virtuous deeds of man.

Our objective salvation is realized only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whereas our personal or subjective salvation, which in the language of the New Testament is called righteousness, holiness, or salvation (in the narrow sense), is realized as a continuance of this objective salvation, with our personal energy or activity acting in co-operation with Divine Energy or Grace.
...
The truth is that Christ has brought salvation to everyone, something theologians have labelled general (or objective) salvation. And yet, everyone does not actualize this objective salvation, only those who seek and pursue it. While objective salvation is granted to every human being, subjective or personal salvation depends on the intent of man. Those who desire to be saved and work toward that goal receive divine Grace as their aide and guide. This Grace does not work in us violently; rather it abides with us peren- nially as a specific offering for the work of our salvation. Subsequently, it is not possible for us to speak of an unconditional predestination and its inadequate presuppositions for salvation." - Elder Cleopa

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_salvation.aspx


Thank you for the link.

Well, Calvinism is more subtle than Elder Cleopas represents, but what he represents is represented as Calvinism, even by a lot of Calvinista.  Augustine wrote on how the free will and the sovereignty of God interact, as both are true. As I am here to explore Orthodoxy rather than defend Calvinism, I will pass on developing nuances that 1) no one here is really interested in and 2) I am probably incapable of addressing properly. For one thing, I do not consider myself a Calvinist.  But I liked a lot of what Fr. Cleopas said.

Ah, was my initial reaction: Arminianism.  What, I wondered earlier today, in thinking about this, do the EO think about the five points of Calvinism? My suspicion is that they reject Arminianism for the same reason they reject Calvinism: it is not tied adequately into tradition, and there is a picture of a small child trying to put the shattered pieces of the church of the West back together, while out east it has been humming along forever, needing no healing as never having been shattered.  Do the EO look at the reformers as merely Catholic rebels, or as Christians who were trying to restore what had been lost? I hear the same sort of complaints from the EO about Rome that I hear from Protestants: insatiable thirst for power at any cost, doctrinal errors that go far from Scripture and the practice of the early church, etc. 

That "practice of the early church" thing.  Protestants are always trying to get back to what they did back then. And then you guys show up and claim you've been doing it all along. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT BUGS ME???
Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 10:07:35 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

"Our Church, however, teaches that our personal salvation is neither a gift, nor a simple work, but rather a process and an undertaking that matures or develops gradually and is realized in the co-operation of two persons: God and man. On the part of God, Divine Grace (His uncreated Divine Energy) is offered to us, while for man's part, faith and righteous deeds are necessary. Consequently, the prerequisites for our personal salvation are the following: the Divine Grace or uncreated Divine Energy of God and the faith and virtuous deeds of man.

Our objective salvation is realized only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whereas our personal or subjective salvation, which in the language of the New Testament is called righteousness, holiness, or salvation (in the narrow sense), is realized as a continuance of this objective salvation, with our personal energy or activity acting in co-operation with Divine Energy or Grace.
...
The truth is that Christ has brought salvation to everyone, something theologians have labelled general (or objective) salvation. And yet, everyone does not actualize this objective salvation, only those who seek and pursue it. While objective salvation is granted to every human being, subjective or personal salvation depends on the intent of man. Those who desire to be saved and work toward that goal receive divine Grace as their aide and guide. This Grace does not work in us violently; rather it abides with us peren- nially as a specific offering for the work of our salvation. Subsequently, it is not possible for us to speak of an unconditional predestination and its inadequate presuppositions for salvation." - Elder Cleopa

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_salvation.aspx


Thank you for the link.

Well, Calvinism is more subtle than Elder Cleopas represents, but what he represents is represented as Calvinism, even by a lot of Calvinists.  Augustine wrote on how the free will and the sovereignty of God interact, as both are true. As I am here to explore Orthodoxy rather than defend Calvinism, I will pass on developing nuances that 1) no one here is really interested in and 2) I am probably incapable of addressing properly. For one thing, I do not consider myself a Calvinist.  But I liked a lot of what Fr. Cleopas said.

Ah, was my initial reaction: Arminianism.  What, I wondered earlier today, in thinking about this, do the EO think about the five points of Calvinism? My suspicion is that they reject Arminianism for the same reason they reject Calvinism: it is not tied adequately into tradition, and there is a picture of a small child trying to put the shattered pieces of the church of the West back together, while out east it has been humming along forever, needing no healing as never having been shattered.  Do the EO look at the reformers as merely Catholic rebels, or as Christians who were trying to restore what had been lost? I hear the same sort of complaints from the EO about Rome that I hear from Protestants: insatiable thirst for power at any cost, doctrinal errors that go far from Scripture and the practice of the early church, etc. 

That "practice of the early church" thing.  Protestants are always trying to get back to what they did back then. And then you guys show up and claim you've been doing it all along. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT BUGS ME???

"Whatever is true, whatever is good, whatever is beautiful in evangelical Protestantism has its source in the historic Orthodox Faith. One thousand years before the birth of Martin Luther; fourteen hundred years before the creation of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Fathers of the Orthodox Church had already wrestled with and decided the most important doctrinal issues facing the Christian Faith. Whenever an evangelical Protestant professes faith in the Trinity and in the Divine Manhood of Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, he is unknowingly confessing the Orthodox Faith! This is an invitation for evangelical Protestants to return to their historic roots." - Clark Carlton
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 10:23:57 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

Of course. It's a heresy... plain and simple. God predestining some folks to damnation and others to salvation? Authentic Christianity does not teach such doctrines.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 11:08:30 PM »

This article is also helpful... http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/predestination.aspx

"This means that you are saved or condemned, not because God foresees your salvation or condemnation, but that either by your good works you cooperated with God's grace and God foresees your salvation, or that by your evil deeds you avoid the grace of God and will suffer for it, and God foresees your torment. Thus Judas betrayed Christ not because Christ foresaw his betrayal, but rather Christ foresaw the betrayal of Judas because he intended to betray Christ. Ibis is how the wise Justin, philosopher and martyr speaks about this: "The cause of future events is not foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is the result of future events. The future does not flow forth from foreknowledge, but foreknowledge from the future. It is not Christ who is the cause of the betrayal of Judas. But the betrayal is the cause of the Lord's foreknowledge." If you live in a way which is pleasing to God, you will be saved. If you lead a corrupt life you will perish. God foresees both the first and the second. But neither the first nor the second predetermine God's foreknowledge. You will either be saved or perish. One of these is definitely true, yet not determined beforehand."
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,237


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 11:27:36 PM »

Quote
That "practice of the early church" thing.  Protestants are always trying to get back to what they did back then. And then you guys show up and claim you've been doing it all along.

Ah, truthstalker, there's the rub. As much as you find it distasteful, the Orthodox have indeed been "doing it all along" since Pentecost, 33 AD, whereas protestants have been trying to reinvent the wheel since, ah, the 1500s. Heck, I've seen plenty of reference books on religious art which claim that Christian art began with the Renaissance.  laugh laugh laugh
Quote
DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT BUGS ME???
Wink

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 11:33:28 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??
No.

The question is why you accept it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,983


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 11:48:33 PM »

do the EO think about the five points of Calvinism?
The TULIP?  Eh, not much really.  The wheel was invented millennia ago so the only reason for an EO Christian to study it is to study one group of Protestants.

My suspicion is that they reject Arminianism for the same reason they reject Calvinism: it is not tied adequately into tradition,...
Make that a big 'T' and you've hit on the foundation.

and there is a picture of a small child trying to put the shattered pieces of the church of the West back together,...
We see the church of the West, if you mean Protestantism, as being shattered upon inception; "preaching a different Christ" as St. Theophan the Recluse teaches.  So to an EO Christian, the only way to repair the "shattered pieces" is to disavow Protestantism and adhere to the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church i.e Eastern Orthodoxy.

while out east it has been humming along forever, needing no healing as never having been shattered.
The Church considers herself a hospital for sick souls so, no, the Church needs no healing.  The earthly members of the Church are there to receive the healing.

Do the EO look at the reformers as merely Catholic rebels, or as Christians who were trying to restore what had been lost?
Truthfully?  Yes.  I believe it was Fr. Paul Evdokimov who asserted that Roman Catholics and Protestants are two sides of the same coin.

That "practice of the early church" thing.  Protestants are always trying to get back to what they did back then. And then you guys show up and claim you've been doing it all along. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT BUGS ME???
But there were no Protestants "back then";  Protestant history begins in the 1500's.  
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2009, 09:35:38 AM »

Quote
We see the church of the West, if you mean Protestantism, as being shattered


I mean the Catholic Church in its practices and teachings as having moved away from its origins.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2009, 09:58:51 AM »

That "practice of the early church" thing.  Protestants are always trying to get back to what they did back then. And then you guys show up and claim you've been doing it all along.
I agree that this is important for them and they are trying to do so, and I think that is admirable. However the approach Protestants use to "return to the early Church" is "reconstructionist" based on fragmentary knowledge (the Bible). Using the Bible as the sole source of information about the Early Church is like using the plays and sonnets of William Shakespeare to determine what life was like in 16th century England- it just doesn't work.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:03:48 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2009, 10:38:44 AM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

Predestination was one of those heretical beliefs I recanted upon reception into the Orthodox Church. A Calvinist believes that God has predestined (chosen) some of mankind to receive eternal life, and the rest to
receive eternal damnation.

The other thing that a Calvinist believes is that "he" is one of those whom God has chosen.

To a Calvinist, the evidence that a person is one of those whom God in His mercy has selected to be given eternal life is that one believes certain things about Jesus Christ.  So, if a Calvinist believes those "certain things" about Jesus, then he can be sure that he is one of those predestined by God for eternal life.

Thus the Calvinist is able to save himself simply by believing that God has chosen some, and then convincing himself that he is one of the chosen because he believes those "certain things" about Jesus.   How convenient...

The "truth" which Calvinists cannot see is:

I Jn 3:6

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth NOT:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

I Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

I Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin;

Calvinists who commit sin are not children of God by their own admission.


Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2009, 11:06:21 AM »


Predestination was one of those heretical beliefs I recanted upon reception into the Orthodox Church. A Calvinist believes that God has predestined (chosen) some of mankind to receive eternal life, and the rest to
receive eternal damnation.

The other thing that a Calvinist believes is that "he" is one of those whom God has chosen.

To a Calvinist, the evidence that a person is one of those whom God in His mercy has selected to be given eternal life is that one believes certain things about Jesus Christ.  So, if a Calvinist believes those "certain things" about Jesus, then he can be sure that he is one of those predestined by God for eternal life.

Thus the Calvinist is able to save himself simply by believing that God has chosen some, and then convincing himself that he is one of the chosen because he believes those "certain things" about Jesus.   How convenient...

The "truth" which Calvinists cannot see is:

I Jn 3:6

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth NOT:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

I Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

I Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin;

Calvinists who commit sin are not children of God by their own admission.




Not that I am a Calvinist, but let's be objective and let's not over-simplify Calvinists' beliefs to the point of caricature.

First, neither Calvin nor any of his followers ever wrote or said that God pre-destined some people to damnation. Calvin's understanding of God's grace is different. He indeed, had chosen SOME people before the world even was created; He chose them absolutely arbitrarily, randomly, just "for His good pleasure," without foreseeing any merit in them (because what kind of merit can be in people who descend from the fallen Adam). Because these people are chosen, they will receive God's grace (and they cannot resist it, because Grace is, according to hyper-Augustinian Calvin, "irresistible"); other people will be "passed over" - just like God "passed over" the Pharaoh in the book of Exodus, or Esau in the book of Genesis (sf. Romans 8:10-21).

Second, no person except Jesus Christ lives and commits no sin (cf. our Orthodox Litany for the Departed: "as You ae a Good God Who loves mankind, pardon every sin, which he (she, they) has (have) committed, whether by word, deed, or thought, for there is no man who has not sinned. You alone are sinless, Your righteousness is eternal and Your Word is truth"). So, 1 Jhn 3:9 must be interpreted differently and it can hardly be used in arguments with Calvinists. Their understanding of themselves being children of God is different; they believe that no one is righteous and no one lives a perfectly sinless life, but the "elect" will be saved because God will credit to them the righteousness of Christ (iustificatio imputa).
Logged

Love never fails.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,374


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 11:17:43 AM »

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

Really now?  Which Judaism says that?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2009, 02:07:01 PM »

Let me clearly say that I am not here to discuss Calvinism but Orthodoxy.  It is pertinent as to what of Calvinism is Orthodox, what is more pertinent is where the dividing line is.  To that end Calvinism need only be discussed in light of the statements in the OP.  The Elder Cleopas quote was helpful in me seeing how the Orthodox view some of these issues.  Some of the material posted seems irrelevant and off-topic, frankly, and I wish that would stop.   

I agree that the Reformation can be viewed as an attempted reconstruction of early Christian belief.  The Swiss reformers, AFAIK, were not in contact with the Orthodox.  There is apparently a series of letters between Luther and Constantinople that I intend to read, although I already have a long reading list.  I am attempting to understand Orthodox belief.

The Orthodox state that we have free will.  Do the Orthodox believe the will is untouched by the fall, or is it a gift that regenerate man has? The former seems Pelagian and the latter smacks of Calvinism.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2009, 11:42:54 PM »

Let me clearly say that I am not here to discuss Calvinism but Orthodoxy.  It is pertinent as to what of Calvinism is Orthodox, what is more pertinent is where the dividing line is.  To that end Calvinism need only be discussed in light of the statements in the OP.  The Elder Cleopas quote was helpful in me seeing how the Orthodox view some of these issues.  Some of the material posted seems irrelevant and off-topic, frankly, and I wish that would stop.   

I agree that the Reformation can be viewed as an attempted reconstruction of early Christian belief.  The Swiss reformers, AFAIK, were not in contact with the Orthodox.  There is apparently a series of letters between Luther and Constantinople that I intend to read, although I already have a long reading list.  I am attempting to understand Orthodox belief.

The Orthodox state that we have free will.  Do the Orthodox believe the will is untouched by the fall, or is it a gift that regenerate man has? The former seems Pelagian and the latter smacks of Calvinism.
It is touched by the Fall, but not destroyed.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »

How is it touched by the fall but not destroyed?

Images:

If you have a pitcher of lemonade and you thrust a dead rat into it, it is possible that there are some parts of it still drinkable, but the whole thing is undrinkable.....Unless you like it that way.

If you have a fine Greek sculpture and break off the arm, it is still all that it was, except for the arm.

If you have a painting but you paint over it, etc.

Do any of these fit the Orthodox understanding?
Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 08:34:33 PM »

The Orthodox image would be that of a tarnished silver chalice (or any silver object)....it has been tarnished and scratched by sin, but after polishing (aka the process of Theosis) the chalice emerges...
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 08:50:44 PM »

How is it touched by the fall but not destroyed?

Images:

If you have a pitcher of lemonade and you thrust a dead rat into it, it is possible that there are some parts of it still drinkable, but the whole thing is undrinkable.....Unless you like it that way.

Or if you are in the middle of the Sahara, without your canteen.  In which case you will kill for it.

Quote
If you have a fine Greek sculpture and break off the arm, it is still all that it was, except for the arm.


http://www.sailingissues.com/greekislands/cyclades/venus-de-milo.jpg

Quote
If you have a painting but you paint over it, etc.

I guess so.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/241581/longlost_titian_portrait_to_be_sold_at_auction/


Quote
Do any of these fit the Orthodox understanding?

No.

Image:

Your child is hit by a car, and brain damaged.  Are they less your child?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2009, 11:02:21 PM »

Ok.  Let's try this.

Suppose you were hit by a car and your only desire was to die.  No other healing could occur until you regained your will to live.  The first step in healing is the transformation of your will.  Because of the brain damage, you continually sinned as well: with as much will and strength as you had.  If you knew something was sin, you would do it, not because you were interested in the pleasure or whatever, but because it would separate you from God and speed your death.  You were damaged in the will before you were injured in the flesh.

Now along comes an Orthodox. He says God saves the willing.  You realize that although heaven sounds a lot better than hell, you also know that your will is all too often to do what does not please God, as in Romans 7.  You are a sin-o-matic.  The only forgiveness you can obtain is that purchased by Christ, who fully understands that you are damaged in the will.  He wants to see you healed, but your free will is so damaged that you will never want it (even though at the same time you want it).

It is not good news to say that God saves the righteous and casts the sinners into hell. It is good news to say that God takes sinners and rescues them. He came to call not the righteous, but sinners, to repentence - sinners who choose sin over salvation much of the time.

My free will is not so good as to get me to heaven (that would be a work).   The will of God is.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 11:03:38 PM by truthstalker » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2009, 11:24:32 PM »

Ok.  Let's try this.

Suppose you were hit by a car and your only desire was to die.  No other healing could occur until you regained your will to live.  The first step in healing is the transformation of your will.  Because of the brain damage, you continually sinned as well: with as much will and strength as you had.  If you knew something was sin, you would do it, not because you were interested in the pleasure or whatever, but because it would separate you from God and speed your death.  You were damaged in the will before you were injured in the flesh.

Now along comes an Orthodox. He says God saves the willing.  You realize that although heaven sounds a lot better than hell, you also know that your will is all too often to do what does not please God, as in Romans 7.  You are a sin-o-matic.  The only forgiveness you can obtain is that purchased by Christ, who fully understands that you are damaged in the will.  He wants to see you healed, but your free will is so damaged that you will never want it (even though at the same time you want it).

It is not good news to say that God saves the righteous and casts the sinners into hell. It is good news to say that God takes sinners and rescues them. He came to call not the righteous, but sinners, to repentence - sinners who choose sin over salvation much of the time.

My free will is not so good as to get me to heaven (that would be a work).   The will of God is.

Let's say you are perfectly healthy and sane.  There's no difference between that you and the brain damaged you when it comes to prevenient grace.  That's a given.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2009, 11:28:03 PM »

Ok.  Let's try this.

Suppose you were hit by a car and your only desire was to die.  No other healing could occur until you regained your will to live.  The first step in healing is the transformation of your will.  Because of the brain damage, you continually sinned as well: with as much will and strength as you had.  If you knew something was sin, you would do it, not because you were interested in the pleasure or whatever, but because it would separate you from God and speed your death.  You were damaged in the will before you were injured in the flesh.

Now along comes an Orthodox. He says God saves the willing.  You realize that although heaven sounds a lot better than hell, you also know that your will is all too often to do what does not please God, as in Romans 7.  You are a sin-o-matic.  The only forgiveness you can obtain is that purchased by Christ, who fully understands that you are damaged in the will.  He wants to see you healed, but your free will is so damaged that you will never want it (even though at the same time you want it).

It is not good news to say that God saves the righteous and casts the sinners into hell. It is good news to say that God takes sinners and rescues them. He came to call not the righteous, but sinners, to repentence - sinners who choose sin over salvation much of the time.

My free will is not so good as to get me to heaven (that would be a work).   The will of God is.

How likely is this situation??

The only job of man is to die to Christ. All humans will fall along the path, stumble and trip and crawl along the road of life. That's a fact. We cannot change this alone. Which is why God, in His loving-kindness and tender mercy, sent His Only Begotten Son, on a rescue mission, to save us.

And in instituting His Church, He gave us a hospital for our souls. Where we go to attend services and worship Him in His glory, pray for ourselves, pray for others and with others. In the Church we come to be cleansed in the Life-giving fire of the sacraments...in baptism, in communion, in the Unction, in Confession. All these aspects are provided by our God in recognition that we are fallen human beings, desiring a Saviour for our souls.

In your example, you placed far too much on the person's will. All that person must do is to turn to God and say "Lord have mercy on me!" Do you think God is so callous He will not answer? Do you think God is so callous that He will not acknowledge the state of His Creation??

The following letter from St. Seraphim of Viritsa says it well, I think.

This Was From Me
(The new St. Seraphim, of Viritsa was born in 1866. He married and had three children. In 1920, at the age of 54, he and his wife quietly separated and each entered monastic life. Eventually he became the spiritual father of the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where, as a clairvoyant staretz, he also confessed thousands of laity. He said, "I am the storage room where people's afflictions gather." In imitation of his patron saint, he prayed for a thousand nights on a rock before an icon of St. Seraphim of Sarov. He reposed in the Lord in 1949 and the Church of Russia glorified him in August of 2000.)

The following is (slightly abridged) from a letter sent by St. Seraphim to a spiritual child of his, a hierarch who was at that time in a Soviet prison. It is in the form of consolation given by God to a troubled man's soul.

Have you ever thought that everything that concerns you, concerns Me, also? You are precious in my eyes and I love you; for his reason, it is a special joy for Me to train you. When temptations and the opponent [the Evil One] come upon you like a river, I want you to know that This was from Me.

I want you to know that your weakness has need of My strength, and your safety lies in allowing Me to protect you. I want you to know that when you are in difficult conditions, among people who do not understand you, and cast you away, This was from Me.

I am your God, the circumstances of your life are in My hands; you did not end up in your position by chance; this is precisely the position I have appointed for you. Weren't you asking Me to teach you humility? And there - I placed you precisely in the "school" where they teach this lesson. Your environment, and those who are around you, are performing My will. Do you have financial difficulties and can just barely survive? Know that This was from Me.

I want you to know that I dispose of your money, so take refuge in Me and depend upon Me. I want you to know that My storehouses are inexhaustible, and I am faithful in My promises. Let it never happen that they tell you in your need, "Do not believe in your Lord and God." Have you ever spent the night in suffering? Are you separated from your relatives, from those you love? I allowed this that you would turn to Me, and in Me find consolation and comfort. Did your friend or someone to whom you opened your heart, deceive you? This was from Me.

I allowed this frustration to touch you so that you would learn that your best friend is the Lord. I want you to bring everything to Me and tell Me everything. Did someone slander you? Leave it to Me; be attached to Me so that you can hide from the "contradiction of the nations." I will make your righteousness shine like light and your life like midday noon. Your plans were destroyed? Your soul yielded and you are exhausted? This was from Me.

You made plans and have your own goals; you brought them to Me to bless them. But I want you to leave it all to Me, to direct and guide the circumstances of your life by My hand, because you are the orphan, not the protagonist. Unexpected failures found you and despair overcame your heart, but know That this was from Me.

With tiredness and anxiety I am testing how strong your faith is in My promises and your boldness in prayer for your relatives. Why is it not you who entrusted their cares to My providential love? You must leave them to the protection of My All Pure Mother. Serious illness found you, which may be healed or may be incurable, and has nailed you to your bed. This was from Me.

Because I want you to know Me more deeply, through physical ailment, do not murmur against this trial I have sent you. And do not try to understand My plans for the salvation of people's souls, but unmurmuringly and humbly bow your head before My goodness. You were dreaming about doing something special for Me and, instead of doing it, you fell into a bed of pain. This was from Me.

Because then you were sunk in your own works and plans and I wouldn't have been able to draw your thoughts to Me. But I want to teach you the most deep thoughts and My lessons, so that you may serve Me. I want to teach you that you are nothing without Me. Some of my best children are those who, cut off from an active life, learn to use the weapon of ceaseless prayer. You were called unexpectedly to undertake a difficult and responsible position, supported by Me. I have given you these difficulties and as the Lord God I will bless all your works, in all your paths. In everything I, your Lord, will be your guide and teacher. Remember always that every difficulty you come across, every offensive word, every slander and criticism, every obstacle to your works, which could cause frustration and disappointment, This is from Me.

Know and remember always, no matter where you are, That whatsoever hurts will be dulled as soon as you learn In all things, to look at Me. Everything has been sent to you by Me, for the perfection of your soul.

All these things were from Me

Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2009, 11:04:29 PM »

When I say, "Lord have mercy, Jesus Son of God have mercy on me, Holy Spirit comfort me," I believe He hears and answers.  The Scriptures promise that those who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved. He is the rescuer.  But I find it hard to believe that God would start to rescue someone and then drop them.  We only pray because God prompts us, we only ask for grace because God has already moved in us.  It is not our will but His at work.   Now you say it is both, but is it not that God moves sovereignly in our free will?  We respond freely, but that freedom is also subject to God's sovereignty. It is a both-and, or so I have been taught: God is sovereign AND man is free, yet God is sovereign over man's free will, and man is free in His sovereignty.  I gather the Orthodox equate predestination with foresight, which I have been taught are two separate things.  God has determined that certain things will happen and has not just foreseen them.  There is a raft of Scriptures we can throw at each other at this point, as well as church fathers and councils and whatnot.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,374


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2009, 11:42:17 PM »

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

Really now?  Which Judaism says that?

I wanted to have this posted again.  I'm really curious about Tallitot's choice of Judaism on the basis of "deeds, not creeds."  If that's the case, then whey are you a Jew?  Why aren't you a moral spiritual individualist?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2009, 12:42:56 AM »

^^ I second that! Please, Tallitot, tell us your story and why you decided to become Jewish! I think it would be very interesting to hear! Happy Passover, by the way!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 07:28:04 AM »

The Orthodox image would be that of a tarnished silver chalice (or any silver object)....it has been tarnished and scratched by sin, but after polishing (aka the process of Theosis) the chalice emerges...

Like I have said already in a couple of other threads, most unfortunately, this analogy with contaminated drinks, rats, tarnished surfaces, etc. to me just smacks of Lamarckism, or, more broadly speaking, of the naive belief of the people who lived before the emergence of natural sciences that heredity is affected by such environmental factors as an individual act of will, behavior, compliance to external commands, etc. It's actually not far from the belief of Jacob in Genesis that if an ewe or a mare looks at stripes on a fence, her progeny will be striped...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 07:28:40 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,820


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2009, 05:00:31 PM »

the Calvinist is able to save himself simply by believing that God has chosen some, and then convincing himself that he is one of the chosen because he believes those "certain things" about Jesus.   How convenient...

This isn't true. There is many a sincere humble Calvinist who is deeply aware of his own unworthiness, who believes everything a Christian should believe, yet spends years, nay decades, peering anxiously into himself for signs of God's regenerating grace, not daring to believe he sees them, and fearing he will in the end be lost because he has no evidence that he is among the elect.

Similarly, there is many an Arminian who has a lively awareness of enjoying a present salvation, his past sins being freely and fully pardoned because of his faith in Jesus Christ, yet fears he may sin or apostatise and lose that salvation before he dies.

Neither has the glad assurance of eternal life which is his now and will be for ever, that petrine 'richly provided entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour'.

Similarly (it seems to me), because Orthodox define salvation in terms of its end result rather than its present possession, they are aware they have begun the Christian life but can never be sure they will maintain the needed progress in sanctification (theosis) so as to be saved in the end.

So we end up with none of them (Calvinist, Arminian or Orthodox) resting in settled peace with God that he belongs now and forever to God through the redemption, or purchase, effected at Calvary.

Friends, there is something wrong here. Surely the resurrection of Christ, which western Christians celebrate this weekend and eastern the following, achieved a more glorious and assured victory. If death, sin, the devil and the Law were decisively defeated on our behalf, as Orthodox emphasise, and if full and perfect satisfaction was made for all our sins, as westerners emphasise, then in Christ God offers us a stronger and more durable joy than many currently enjoy.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2009, 11:09:35 PM »

I believe it is true.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2009, 02:13:53 AM »

The Orthodox image would be that of a tarnished silver chalice (or any silver object)....it has been tarnished and scratched by sin, but after polishing (aka the process of Theosis) the chalice emerges...

Like I have said already in a couple of other threads, most unfortunately, this analogy with contaminated drinks, rats, tarnished surfaces, etc. to me just smacks of Lamarckism, or, more broadly speaking, of the naive belief of the people who lived before the emergence of natural sciences that heredity is affected by such environmental factors as an individual act of will, behavior, compliance to external commands, etc. It's actually not far from the belief of Jacob in Genesis that if an ewe or a mare looks at stripes on a fence, her progeny will be striped...

I'm kinda lost how heredity has anything to do with tarnished spoons. Simple put, the spoon is underneath the tarnish a shiny silver spoon, just like all other shiny silver spoons. It's nature as a silver spoon is not obliterated by its tarnish merely covered up. Similarly, all persons have a nature that is pure, eventhough it is covered by the tarnish of sin, the sin doesn't not obliterate the nature of the person.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,820


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2009, 04:35:15 AM »

I believe it is true.

OK, but let me ask you a sincere question: How much time have you spent among Calvinists? I had a fellow student of strong Calvinist persuasion living in a room near mine when I was studying to be a schoolteacher, back in 1970-1971, and at that time I adopetd his views. This led me into five years in strongly Calvinist churches in the south of England, and through my preaching I also became well enough known among them to be invited, after the Albanian mission was founded in 1986, to speak about Albania and to preach on Sundays in a good number of churches much more widely spread than the south of England: Wales, Scotland and other parts of England led to invitations, and I was usually accommodated or given dinner in the homes of church members, where our conversation naturally turned to spiritual themes. Now, decades later, I am still invited to speak at such churches fairly often. In my experience, what I wrote above, some posts ago, about strongly predestinarian churches is true: not all Calvinists are like it, of course, but it is a common feature within their circles.

Now far be it from me to say you are wrong: maybe you have moved over the years in different Calvinist circles and not encountered what I have described. But if so, I think you have not yet come across the whole range of predestinarian anxiety and doubt about one's own election.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2009, 10:52:48 PM »

"Calvinist" - speaking as a member of an ostensibly Calvinist church, or one, anyway, that is supposed to have its roots in J. Calvin's theology - is a term that has practically become meaningless, except maybe as a pejorative on Catholic and Orthodox forums.  We have five point, four point, (no point?)Calvinists.  We have strict Calvinists. I suppose we have lenient ones, but they would never use the term.  All are, however, struggling with deep concerns about their own guilt and holy living and forgiveness.  Calvinist devotional literature is chock full of exhortations towards holy and right living, the old stuff anyway.  Some who do not understand the nuances of Calvinism are quick to disparage it, and in so doing, reveal that they do not understand it.  Many Calvinists do not understand Calvinism. I suspect John Calvin himself was not a Calvinist.  I don't think of myself as a Calvinist, but I probably walk and talk and think like one more than I realize. If that is not confusing I will try harder.

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,237


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2009, 10:57:31 PM »

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.

One Orthodox belief which is utterly opposed to Calvinist belief is that of the propriety and necessity of iconography and its veneration as a necessary and essential part of worship.
Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2009, 11:14:47 PM »

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.

It is true that other faith traditions (even non-Christian ones) may hold to certain teachings that the Orthodox Church holds as Divine Truth. But we still have the Fullness of that Truth.

And it also must be said....that if one is outside the Church, it doesn't matter what they believe, they are still outside of the Church.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2009, 11:30:29 PM »

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.
Whatever it is that makes a Calvinist peculiarly "Calvinist" is what Catholics and Orthodox reject about it. Anything else Calvinists teach that is orthodox we would not call "Calvinist."  Catholics and Orthodox reject double predestination, determinism, and total depravity.

You stated in your first post that we have the grace of salvation because we accept by a grace that moves us to accept.  On the surface, that sounds orthodox.  But what Calvinists really mean is that we are SO TOTALLY DEPRAVED that our movement towards God is COMPLETELY a work of God, and that we are not at all involved in our salvation by the use of our free will and intellect (albeit damaged by the effects of original/ancestral sin).  It is not the same as what Catholics and Orthodox believe.

Blessings
Logged
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2009, 03:37:23 PM »

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.
Whatever it is that makes a Calvinist peculiarly "Calvinist" is what Catholics and Orthodox reject about it. Anything else Calvinists teach that is orthodox we would not call "Calvinist."  Catholics and Orthodox reject double predestination, determinism, and total depravity.

You stated in your first post that we have the grace of salvation because we accept by a grace that moves us to accept.  On the surface, that sounds orthodox.  But what Calvinists really mean is that we are SO TOTALLY DEPRAVED that our movement towards God is COMPLETELY a work of God, and that we are not at all involved in our salvation by the use of our free will and intellect (albeit damaged by the effects of original/ancestral sin).  It is not the same as what Catholics and Orthodox believe.

Blessings

To be fair, the danger here to the Calvinist is to reject something Orthodox or Catholic on the grounds it is "not Calvinistic."

We are dead in our trespasses and sins. Dead people do not choose, do not play cards or fold laundry. They are dead.  Somewhere along the line there is a unilateral act on the part of God.  People didn't take a vote, for example, and ask Jesus to come down and save them from their sins.  He takes and took and will take the initiative in saving us.  If we respond, can we respond correctly without grace? Can we have truly free will apart from the grace of God? Man is a secondary creation, created with free will, but God moves at a level beneath the free will so He is still sovereign.  I think I am paraphrasing Aquinas, who came up with some statement that the number of the elect is fixed and unchangeable.  Most Catholics are astonished, it seems, when I tell them they believe in predestination.  Only vile Calvinists do so. It is their fate, I guess.

When Jesus called the twelve, they came. They were not His second or third draft.  "We did not choose Him, but He chose us."

The definition of total depravity I use may not be Calvinistic, but I've been told it is, and I am wondering if it is in line with Orthodox thought.  It is that everything man does is tainted with sin to some degree or another. None of it, when he works on his own, is good enough for God.
Logged
truthstalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Evangelical Presbyterian
Posts: 166


« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2009, 05:42:52 PM »

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.
Whatever it is that makes a Calvinist peculiarly "Calvinist" is what Catholics and Orthodox reject about it. Anything else Calvinists teach that is orthodox we would not call "Calvinist."  Catholics and Orthodox reject double predestination, determinism, and total depravity.

You stated in your first post that we have the grace of salvation because we accept by a grace that moves us to accept.  On the surface, that sounds orthodox.  But what Calvinists really mean is that we are SO TOTALLY DEPRAVED that our movement towards God is COMPLETELY a work of God, and that we are not at all involved in our salvation by the use of our free will and intellect (albeit damaged by the effects of original/ancestral sin).  It is not the same as what Catholics and Orthodox believe.

Blessings

I understand to some extent Luther's question: am I the only one who is right on this? To be the only one in a thunderstorm who is sitting away from a tree, while everyone else is huddled underneath it, is a lonely and frightening thing.  Whatever is peculiar in my theology stands an excellent chance of being wrong.  There is the temptation to conform, to join the herd, to groupthink, to betray my own convictions and knowledge of the truth in favor of the lie that I believe just as they do.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,176



WWW
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2010, 06:48:37 PM »

I was always more of a "works" Christian when i adhered to that religion. I think one of the thiongs that attracted me to Judaism was it's emphasis on "deeds, not creeds".

Hello Tallitot! Is there someplace where you wrote about your conversion from Orthodoxy to Judaism?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,374


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2010, 07:26:53 PM »

I've been perplexed by Tallitot's idea that Judaims is "deeds, not creeds."

Every religion in my opinion has emphasis equally, more or less, on both deeds and creeds.  There is a creed in Judaism for instance of Israel and the Temple, and upon reinstating the Temple, reinstating the Temple priesthood.  There is a creed on sacrifices, on the dogma of G-d, on being Kosher.  There is a creed of believing in an upcoming Messiah, in relationship with G-d, in prayer.

There are also deeds.  I don't think these deeds are much different from Christianity's, and if I may add, Christianity seems to in my opinion transcends the Judaic deeds in much more growth to the point that Judaism itself adopted most if not all of those deeds.

And if I'm not mistaken, there is one true God in Judaism, the most important creed of all.  So, if anything, unless I'm proven wrong, it seems a conversion to Judaism based on "deeds instead of creeds" is a bunch of malarkey.

Of course Christianity emphasizes works.  A Christian who is very faithful to Orthodoxy with every iota of creed there is, but does no deed is comparable to the demons themselves (James 2:19).

« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:28:54 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,176



WWW
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2010, 07:35:08 PM »

Your right, Mina, Judaism is also about Creeds. Their Rabbi, Mamonaides said if a Jew rejects the future resurrection, then he is lost.

Judaism requires beliefs, just not that the Holy Spirit is a separate person of God, or that Jesus in particular was a divine Messiah. Otherwise, many of Judaism's beliefs are the same as Orthodox Christianity.

(Kabballah is not a central belief of official Judaism. I think that Jews in Spain reject it, where it was written in the late middle ages.)

Still want to hear about Tallitot's experience though.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:39:48 PM by rakovsky » Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2010, 08:27:15 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Justification is by the grace of God conforming us to His justice and us co-operating with this grace.

Which sounds rather different from what you're saying.

If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Also, while it would be accurate to say that we could not co-operate with grace without grace, I think it would also be inaccurate to say that we co-operate only because of grace, but rather we would say that it is also because we freely choose to do so.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2010, 08:28:00 PM »

The Orthodox position is that justification is by faith alone and faith is put in your heart by God.

Ummm....

Where do you get that idea?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2010, 08:30:56 PM »

I disagree. We will be judged on what we do, not what beliefs we held.

Yes. However, in the context of the Christian understanding of the fallen nature, our being pure in deeds can only be made entirely possible by the sanctifying grace of God, which is only accessible through the orthodox Christian faith.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2010, 08:31:49 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Yep.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2010, 08:32:46 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

Calvinist predestination, yes. But not predestination according to foreknowledge.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2010, 08:35:30 PM »

Sola fide!  But faith without works is dead.  Works are a consequence, not a forerunner of faith. If there is faith, there is then previously the gift of faith, as faith is the gift of God. If we respond to God with grace, it is because He has already given us grace.  Our salvation is not in ourselves but in God. If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride.

Where are the Orthodox at on this? Are these Orthodox statements?

Let's see if I have this right. "If we cooperate with Him, it is because He has granted us the grace to cooperate - not because our flesh decides to go along for the ride." Therefore, if we do NOT cooperate with Him, it is because He has NOT granted us the grace to cooperate. Hmmmm.... that's about as Calivinist as it gets. In short, He predetermines to whom He will grant grace... and those to whom He extends His grace will respond by cooperating with Him (and ultimately be "saved" as it were) and those to whom He does NOT extend His grace will NOT cooperate with Him (and ultimately will be "lost and damned" as it were).

I have to tell you. This is NOT the God I worship nor is this the God of the scriptures or of the Church. It's the made-up God of John Calvin.

Do you reject predestination??

Of course. It's a heresy... plain and simple. God predestining some folks to damnation and others to salvation? Authentic Christianity does not teach such doctrines.

If there are some who are ultimately saved and some who are ultimately damned and God is omniscient, you must at least recognize that He created the universe knowing and allowing for the damnation of those who would be damned. Predestination by foreknowledge.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2010, 08:39:23 PM »

The Orthodox state that we have free will.  Do the Orthodox believe the will is untouched by the fall, or is it a gift that regenerate man has? The former seems Pelagian and the latter smacks of Calvinism.

Actually, not really either. We usually phrase it in this way: the freedom of our will is damaged and limited by the Fall and is only returned to perfect freedom by grace.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2010, 08:42:49 PM »

How is it touched by the fall but not destroyed?

Images:

If you have a pitcher of lemonade and you thrust a dead rat into it, it is possible that there are some parts of it still drinkable, but the whole thing is undrinkable.....Unless you like it that way.

If you have a fine Greek sculpture and break off the arm, it is still all that it was, except for the arm.

If you have a painting but you paint over it, etc.

Do any of these fit the Orthodox understanding?

Actually, there's a really good image which Kallistos Ware mentions in one of his books, that being viewing glasses.

The Pelagian has perfectly intact glasses that he/she can see through just fine.

The Augustinian has completely broken glasses which he/she can't use at all.

The Orthodox (a la John Cassian) has smeared and smudged glasses which are somewhat helpful, but to a limited degree.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2010, 08:49:14 PM »

But I find it hard to believe that God would start to rescue someone and then drop them.

He wouldn't. If God holds out His hand, some job on and are rescued. However, some jump on and then later jump back down again. God isn't the one who terminates the salvation process. It's the person being saved who does that.

We only pray because God prompts us,

No.

we only ask for grace because God has already moved in us.

No.

It is not our will but His at work.

Again, no. Both the will of God and the free choice of Man are involved in our salvation.

Now you say it is both, but is it not that God moves sovereignly in our free will?

No. It is us who move in our freedom. God is the one who provides the freedom, but the choice after that point is ours.

We respond freely, but that freedom is also subject to God's sovereignty. It is a both-and, or so I have been taught: God is sovereign AND man is free, yet God is sovereign over man's free will, and man is free in His sovereignty.

You are overemphasizing sovereignty.

I gather the Orthodox equate predestination with foresight, which I have been taught are two separate things.  God has determined that certain things will happen and has not just foreseen them.

Yes, but He predestines them according to His foreknowledge.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2010, 08:52:05 PM »

Similarly (it seems to me), because Orthodox define salvation in terms of its end result rather than its present possession,

That's not true. "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I [God willing] will be saved" is very much in line with the Orthodox mentality.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2010, 08:53:10 PM »

I believe it is true.

No, he's right. A Calvinist has no way to know exactly who God has elected and who He has not.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2010, 08:54:21 PM »

The danger here for the Orthodox, as I have observed for the Catholics, is that sometimes they attack a Calvinist belief without realizing that it is a fully Orthodox belief, one they should embrace, if they took the trouble to study either what Calvinists believe or what the Orthodox believe.  There is something strange in the spectacle of someone condemning in another what they themselves should be believing.

That's a slightly arrogant statement.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,176



WWW
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2010, 10:37:26 PM »

Wow Deus, you went viral on this one!

 Angry Shocked Huh Lips Sealed Kiss police
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 10:37:59 PM by rakovsky » Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2010, 12:55:39 AM »

Wow Deus, you went viral on this one!

 Angry Shocked Huh Lips Sealed Kiss police


That is perhaps a bad tendency of mine. I've been trying to remember lately to compact the number of posts I make rather than extend.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.248 seconds with 90 queries.