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Author Topic: Whose Orthodoxy, Anyway?  (Read 15318 times) Average Rating: 5
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Bogoliubtsy
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« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2009, 11:21:42 PM »

Pravoslav09, what connection does your church have to the Apostolic Succession?

You still haven't answered my question: please trace your Apostolic succession from a pre-revolutionary bishop to your current episcopacy. Who do you commemorate at liturgy- the deceased Tsar, or a bishop? If a bishop, what is the bishop's name.

Pravoslav09, you've now had two posters question you regarding the connection of your bishop to the Apostolic Succession, and so far it appears you're ignoring us.  So I ask you again:  Who is your bishop, and was he consecrated within the Apostolic Succession?

Our Church is still under persecution, this is why I won't mention names in this public forum. Enough for all of you is to know our apostolic succession comes from the Synod of Bishops headed by Patriarch Tikhon, and if we go further in history of the Russian Church, we get our apostolic succession right from the Roman Empire of Constantinople (Eastern Roman Empire), who sent greek bishops to establish the Church in Russia.


You're still persecuted so you can't mention the name of your bishop or your line of succession from Patriarch Tikhon on an internet forum based in the United States. Do you think the KGB is trolling here? Sounds like a total cop-out because, as you're well aware,  there is no way you can trace your current bishops (if they even exist) to Patriarch Tikhon.

Oh, and Cyril and Methodius were not sent to establish Churches in Russia, since Russia didn't yet exist when they came. That type of history is in line with the history you've presented throughout this thread- history I have refuted and about which you have remained silent, giving no reply.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:22:13 PM by Bogoliubtsy » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2009, 11:25:15 PM »

Anyone who wants to debate whether Venizelos and Papandreou were genocidists can do so in the thread created in the private Politics forum for this purpose.  Please PM Fr. Chris if you don't have access to the Private Fora.

Genocide has a wide spectrum, and for the effects of this discussion, we need to narrow it down, and focus on the spam related to Genocide as the systematical elimination of a religious group, with the intention of eliminating their religion from a geographical area.

Eliminating a religious group and restructuring a religious group are two different things and neither of them is constituted as genocide.

After the revolution, Venizelos desperately wanted to legitimatize himself and the new revolutionary State of Greece he founded, in order to get the political and economical support. Western European Nations gave Venizelos a series of "suggestions" that needed to be followed, in order to accept Greece into the Western European Democratic World.

The State of Greece was founded in 1821 - decades before Venizelos came on the scene.  I will agree with you that Venizelos needed Greece to join the West (preferably without the monarchy); The USA would not have provided Greece (e.g. monarchy) with tons of economic aid via the Marshall Plan which meant that Greece was the only Western supported entity in the Balkans; Everyone else in the Balkans apparently refused to follow Venizelos' "suggestions" as you describe until the last decade.

One of these suggestions was the abolishment of the "primitive" and "retrograde" greek religion, as part of the project of re education of greek people, to transform them into Western European Citizens. In response to Western European suggestions, and under the orders of Venizelos, The Locum Tenens of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, issued a document in 1920, entitled Encyclical "Unto the Churches of Christ Everywhere", by which he officially accepted the suggestions of Western Europe, to homologate the teachings and practices of the Greek Church, with the official Churches of Western Europe (Lutheran Church, Church of England, Roman Catholic Church, and others) The Encyclical was part of Venizelo's strategy to join the Greek State in the emerging League of Nations, predecedor of the United Nations.

Do you know what the Greek Orthodox Church looked like before 1920?  Are you saying they were parallel to your "Old Believer" praxis?
 
In response to this, months latter, Venizelos appointed Ab Meletios Metaxakis as Ecumenical Patriarch and having escalated to the summit of the power, Patriarch Meletios on one hand, continued with his reformation and revolutionary activities, and on the other hand, took revenge by eliminating and persecuting all who opposed him, and forming his own particular Council to legitimitize his illegitimate actions, while deposing his opponents.

Wait a minute, Venizelos was a politician, not a Hierarch.  There was a locum tenens in the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920.  The Synod elected Pat. Meletios; you claim they were pressured by Venizelos; I don't see how especially when the Ottoman Empire was in its dying days.

In 1923,  Patriarch Meletios headed a "Pan-Orthodox Congress" which was comprised by a small number of his colleges from different local Churches (six Bishops, two laymen, and one Igumen). Less than half of the local Churches were represented by so much as a layman. The purpose of the meeting was to inforce and legitimatize the suggestions of the 1920 encyclical, along with other antiorthodox and uncanonical changes which were largely rejected. An anglican representative, Bishop Gore of Oxford, was present in the final sessions, where it was decided that nothing stood in the way of union of both Churches.  In 1924, the revolutionary bishops of Venizelo's Church of Greece, under Archbishop Chrysostom Papadopolous, implemented the calendar change discussed at the pan-Orthodox congress of 1923.

I suppose the Holy Spirit was at work to reject these changes.  I will not discuss Calendars in this thread.

From there after, the reformation became a series of legal and mandatory laws for every single Greek Citizen, and those who remained faithful to the Faith and Traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church began to be persecuted, Church property was taken by the government and transfered to its new State Church, sold to businessmen, or used by the government as public buildings, true (traditionalist) Orthodox Christians were arrested, murdered, sent to psychiatric institutions, put in jails with the worst criminals, and many "mysteriously dissappeared". This persecution was stopped by presure of Venizelo's new associates, both members of the League of Nations, and other International Organizations, forced the revolutionaries to allow a modicum of True Orthodox Christians, to hide the genocide.

Can you identify original sources which describe all of these things you cited above?

When President Papandreu came to power, he intensifyed the Westernizing Reforms, and was determined to complete once and for all, the elimination of the True Orthodox Church, and intensified the persecution, both in Greece and Mount Athos.  The Number of "suicides" among the true orthodox in Mount Athos increased, some monasteries like Vatopedi introduced the reforms in faith and practices, and with the chavinist excuse of "keeping Mt Athos Greek" foreign true orthodox monastics were expelled, while a number of foreign monastics supportive of the reformation, were allowed to appease the international community.

Which one, father or son?  You're referring to Andreas Papandreou.  The Church of Greece remained constant under A. Papandreou; Changes surfaced when C. Simitis came to power and accelerated under the current Government.

In our days, genocide in Greece is made evident by the unchristian, cynical, and violent actions of Patriarch Bartholomew I, a turkish citizen who has the power to use the Greek State, to attack the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou, one of the last bastions of ORthodox Christianity in Mount Athos.

I believe that the Holy Spirit will deal with the above situation in a beneficial way for all parties.

Edited to remove possible troublesome comment about Holy Spirit and judgment.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:51:53 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2009, 11:41:32 PM »

Well, you're a bit of a disappointment.   Claiming to be a superior and purer Christian than the rest of us but in fact turning out to be a plain old plagiarist.   You lifted 90% of your message below from  http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/ADOGMATIC.htm 



They just make images, the Moscow Patriarchate still refuses to recognize their Martyrdom. There is a serious canonica violation that is closely intertwined with dogmatics. The 20th canon of Gangra states:“If anyone shall, from a prideful disposition, condemn and abhor the assembly of martyrs, or the services performed there, and the commemoration of them, let them be anathema….”  For many years the MP fell under this anathema, ignoring the decree of the Council of 1917-18 on the commemoration of the holy new martyrs, rejecting and viciously slandering them as “political criminals” and denying the very existence of a persecution against Orthodoxy in the Soviet Union. Now, in the “Jubilee” Hierarchical Council that took place in August, 2000, the MP pretended to cover up this fact by conducting a canonization for the Imperial Family.

The Patriarchate with it's canonization of the Royal Martyrs decisively condemned the act of the Council of the Church Abroad aand declared it to be a purely political act, rejecting even the prayers and service written to them, cleary showing their prideful disposition, condemnation, and how much they abhor the free part of the Tsarist Church.

The main reason why the MP can not accept the Imperial Family's Martyrdom is because they were Martyred for standing up against the revolutionary agenda, they are part of the New Martyrs and Confessors of the Catacomb Church, who exposed and rejected the lies and revolutionary activities of the Moscow Patriarchate founded by Metropolitan Sergius. Quoting from an MP publication  of 1998: “No less if not more dangerous as an ecclesiastical falsification is the MP’s Canonization Commission, headed by Metropolitan Juvenal (Poiarkov), which has suggested a compromise glorification of Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich: ‘Yes, he was guilty of the tragedy on Khodynka field, he hobnobbed with Rasputin, he offended the workers, the country became backward. In general as a ruler of a state he was completely useless. Most important, he brought the country to revolution. But he suffered for Christ…’ Such a falsification will only continue that stream of slander which the Christ-fighters began to pour out already long before 1917…”

There is also a political background behind the process of canonization done by the MP:

In 1993, the superior of church ‘Nikola v Pyzhakh’, Protopriest Alexander Shargunov, placed a large icon of the Tsar Martyr in his church. Two days later he was phoned from the patriarchate and told to remove it, while the superior himself had to go to Chisty Pereulok [the headquarters of the MP] to sort out the question. There the secretary of the Patriarch, Bishop Arsenius, had a talk with Shargunov. In a burst of sincerity the former declared: ‘We all, including the Patriarch, venerate Tsar Nicholas as a saint. But we cannot glorify him – both the communists and the democrats will rise up against us…’

“This phrase explains all the following events. Being in fear of the communists and the democrats, the ‘sergianists’ have for years dragged out the matter of the glorification of the Royal Martyrs. And the canonisation took place only now, in the year 2000, after the election of President Putin, when the chances of the communists returning to power have become zero – it is finally possible to stop fearing them. But the Patriarchate’s fear of the ‘democrats’ has remained, and has perhaps got even stronger. That is why, in the ‘Acts of the Jubilee Council’, they speak about the crime that took place in Ekaterinburg in 1918, but there is not a word about what took place in March, 1917. But we know: the Tsar-Martyr was forced to abdicate from the Throne, not by the Bolsheviks, not by Lenin and Sverdlov, but by the traitor-generals Alexeyev and Rutsky, by the conspirator-parliamentarians Rodzyanko and Guchkov - that is, by the ‘democrats’ of that time. And for fear of their last-born children, not a word was spoken about the ‘February revolution’ at the ‘Jubilee Council’…

 “In his report, the ‘president of the synodal commission for the canonisation of the saints’, Metropolitan Juvenal said: ‘We have striven also to take into account the fact of the canonisation of the Royal Family by the Russian Church Abroad in 1981, which elicited a not unambiguous reaction both in the midst of the Russian emigration, some representatives of which did not see sufficient bases for it at that time, and in Russia herself…’…

As regards the other martyrs, Sergius Kanaev writes: “In the report of the President of the Synodal Commission for the canonisation of the saints, Metropolitan Juvenal (Poiarkov), the criterion of holiness adopted for Orthodox Christians who had suffered during the savage persecutions was clearly and

<big snip>
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« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2009, 11:46:40 PM »

Pravoslav09, what connection does your church have to the Apostolic Succession?

You still haven't answered my question: please trace your Apostolic succession from a pre-revolutionary bishop to your current episcopacy. Who do you commemorate at liturgy- the deceased Tsar, or a bishop? If a bishop, what is the bishop's name.

Pravoslav09, you've now had two posters question you regarding the connection of your bishop to the Apostolic Succession, and so far it appears you're ignoring us.  So I ask you again:  Who is your bishop, and was he consecrated within the Apostolic Succession?

Our Church is still under persecution, this is why I won't mention names in this public forum. Enough for all of you is to know our apostolic succession comes from the Synod of Bishops headed by Patriarch Tikhon, and if we go further in history of the Russian Church, we get our apostolic succession right from the Roman Empire of Constantinople (Eastern Roman Empire), who sent greek bishops to establish the Church in Russia.



A quick aside:

Let me say that I mean no disrespect to the legitimate catacomb believers of the Soviet era. In fact, those believers who practiced their faith in secrecy apart from the Soviet infiltrated Moscow Patriarchate, remain some of my greatest heroes for the trials they endured. They risked their lives and livelihoods to do what they thought to be right. Those catacomb monastics and lay people who lived in this way truly lived as the earliest Christians who feared for their lives in the face of persecution and death. Along with them stand the ordinary believers who attended the "official" Church, either because they did not know of a catacomb Church, or were unwilling to be involved in one. These people also sacrificed the possibility of obtaining certain jobs, allowing their children to get ahead in Soviet society, and sometimes much worse.

What I do object to is present day bishops, priests, and ordinary believers who claim to be spiritual descendants of those catacomb believers. My main objections to these groups are that:

1.) Most (if not all) of these new "catacomb" groups cannot claim a spiritual lineage from pre-Revolutionary Russia because none truly exists.

2.) It tarnishes the name of those who actually belonged to the catacomb church and actually suffered for it when Orthodox in 2009 claim to be a part of the same body.

3.)Often these groups (your posts are case in point) promote half-truths, outright historical fictions, and false generalizations to support their existence.
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« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2009, 11:54:08 PM »

Pravoslav09, what connection does your church have to the Apostolic Succession?

You still haven't answered my question: please trace your Apostolic succession from a pre-revolutionary bishop to your current episcopacy. Who do you commemorate at liturgy- the deceased Tsar, or a bishop? If a bishop, what is the bishop's name.

Pravoslav09, you've now had two posters question you regarding the connection of your bishop to the Apostolic Succession, and so far it appears you're ignoring us.  So I ask you again:  Who is your bishop, and was he consecrated within the Apostolic Succession?

Our Church is still under persecution, this is why I won't mention names in this public forum. Enough for all of you is to know our apostolic succession comes from the Synod of Bishops headed by Patriarch Tikhon, and if we go further in history of the Russian Church, we get our apostolic succession right from the Roman Empire of Constantinople (Eastern Roman Empire), who sent greek bishops to establish the Church in Russia.
Sorry, Pravoslav09, but this isn't enough for us.  The very legitimacy of your church and your witness here on OC.net depends on what you can tell us in answer to this question.  If your bishops are not properly consecrated within the apostolic succession, then we have no choice but to conclude that your church is a schismatic body.  If you don't want to disclose the details to us, that's fine, but don't expect anyone here to take you seriously, since you will have essentially admitted to your status as a schismatic.

Now, as to your reticence to reveal to us whom your bishop is, I have to say I'm left somewhat suspicious, especially considering that the bishops in your church are rather well known--assuming I have properly identified your church to be the Russian True Orthodox Church.  Just look at these web sites to see what I mean:

http://www.catacomb.org.ua/

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_True_Orthodox_Church


Quote
Like so many other schismatic groups the “Russian True Orthodox Church” tries to give itself an aura of historical legitimacy. Allusions to it being the natural successor to the Catacomb Church as founded by St Joseph, Metropolitan of Petrograd, are not founded on fact. In reality the last of the Catacomb bishops, Archbishop Antony GalinskyMikhailovsky died in Kiev in 1976 and was survived by a number of priests, but no bishop. Consequently, the Catacomb Church, having no bishop came to an end.

In 1981, the Synod of ROCOR secretly consecrated Fr Lazarus Zhurbenko, an archimandrite, who had been ordained to the diaconate and priesthood by a Moscow Patriarchal hierarch, Archbishop Benjamin Novitsky of Irtutsk; to be bishop for the various catacomb traditions in Russia. By the time Bishop Lazarus was consecrated, the Synod had realised that there were no canonical catacomb traditions left that could show clearly they possessed Apostolic Succession. This was confirmed by Bishop Lazarus himself when he first attended a meeting of the Synod in New York. An Ukase was then issued to this effect based on Bishop Lazarus’ deposition. Therefore, from 1989 onwards, all catacomb clergy coming to ROCOR were ordained anew to ensure their canonical status.
<< http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/RTOC.htm >>
What have you to say to the above allegation, Pravoslav09?
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« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2009, 12:19:43 AM »

Anyone who wants to debate whether Venizelos and Papandreou were genocidists can do so in the thread created in the private Politics forum for this purpose.  Please PM Fr. Chris if you don't have access to the Private Fora.

Genocide has a wide spectrum, and for the effects of this discussion, we need to narrow it down, and focus on the spam related to Genocide as the systematical elimination of a religious group, with the intention of eliminating their religion from a geographical area.

Eliminating a religious group and restructuring a religious group are two different things and neither of them is constituted as genocide.

When the last "catacomb" Hierarch died in 1976, I can see how the disintegration of that order could be seen as genocide to loyal adherents and their descendents.  That is the Holy Spirit working to tell the "catacomb" adherents to return to a canonical Orthodox Church with full apostolic succession and these adherents have been fighting the Holy Spirit for the last 33 years.  Regardless of how the "catacomb" adherents feel about today's canonical Orthodox entities, they have never perished for Christ said "Believe in me and you will have eternal life."
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« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2009, 01:26:56 AM »

MODERATION:
Pravoslav09, it has come to my attention that you are plagiarizing large blocks of text from web sites such as this: http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/ADOGMATIC.htm.  Not only is not crediting your sources bad manners, it may also be a violation of national copyright laws.  Therefore, you are hereby warned formally to acknowledge your sources when you quote them or copy material from their web sites.



Now, taking off my moderator's hat and speaking as a mere poster:
Could you please respond to the question of how it's possible for your church to have apostolic succession when the last "catacomb" bishop died in 1976?  Are you in the Russian True Orthodox Church (RTOC), as I guessed earlier?  Or are you in the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church (ROAC)?  Or are you in another group currently in schism from the ROCOR body that just recently reinstated communion with Moscow?

Please don't be daunted by the critical language a few of us and I have used here in trying to get information from you.  We allow differing points of view here on OC.net, so you are more than welcome to post here.  We may not always agree, and we may even be quite pointed in the questions we ask each other here, but there's certainly room for all of us, regardless of parent jurisdiction.


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« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2009, 08:24:24 PM »

 
Only by the twisted racial recipe of Nazi Germany can you label V. Lenin as a Jew. Both of his parents were Christian. Only his maternal Grandfather was Jewish . So that would not even make his mother Jewish since Jewishness is carried on the  maternal line.

Early you lamented that Hitler has gotten all the blame for the evils of World War Two but the Soviets are let off easy. You seemed to imply that this was some sort of conspiracy. Actually, it is easy to understand. The Soviet Union became the central Allie of the United States. In fact, they did far more of the fighting than any other Allied power including the US. So for better or worse, the western propaganda machine glossed over their crimes for the greater good of defeating Germany.

And when we look at the genocide of the Soviets, who is the central person committing these crimes? It certainly wasn't Lenin who died very shortly after taking power, though his ideology clearly lays the ground work for religious persecution. It was Stalin wasn't it? A Georgian and if I am not mistaken a Baptized Orthodox Christian ( God forgive us).  And wasn't it Trotsky, a Jew, who was Stalin's primary enemy?

What is your opinion of Hitler? Was he on to something good and just misunderstood? Was he more right than wrong? Hero or villain ?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 08:25:06 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2009, 09:20:23 PM »



Eliminating a religious group and restructuring a religious group are two different things and neither of them is constituted as genocide.


SolEX01 the systematic infiltration of provocative agents, to seize key positions in a religious organization in order to destroy it from the inside, is a common practice. For instance, the the See of Rome was taken by a group of radical revolutionaries that seized key positions, and political control that allowed them to found the Roman Catholic Church in the 11th century, and practically eradicated the Orthodox Church from Western Europe, and other areas of influence.

A very similar strategy was followed by Venizelos and the revolutionary Church of Greece.


The State of Greece was founded in 1821 - decades before Venizelos came on the scene.  I will agree with you that Venizelos needed Greece to join the West (preferably without the monarchy); The USA would not have provided Greece (e.g. monarchy) with tons of economic aid via the Marshall Plan which meant that Greece was the only Western supported entity in the Balkans; Everyone else in the Balkans apparently refused to follow Venizelos' "suggestions" as you describe until the last decade.

I am speaking about today's democratic State of Greece, founded by Venizelos and other revolutionaries in the 20's, and not about the State of Greece which they betrayed and abolished.


Do you know what the Greek Orthodox Church looked like before 1920?  Are you saying they were parallel to your "Old Believer" praxis?

Yes I do, the faith and practices are well documented. The True Orthodox Church of Greece is part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, headed by Christ our Lord, who preaches both in words and deeds the Gospel of our Lord and God Jesus Christ.

The Old Believers are independent religious groups condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church, on account of their erred teachings, and other canonical violations.

There are, however, some communities called "edinovyeri" who renounced their heresies and came back to the bossom of the Russian Orthodox Church, they are allowed to preserve some of their practices like the use of unabridged liturgical texts.

As far as I know, we don't have edinovyeri communities, and we don't have any Old Believer practices.


Wait a minute, Venizelos was a politician, not a Hierarch.  There was a locum tenens in the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920.  The Synod elected Pat. Meletios; you claim they were pressured by Venizelos; I don't see how especially when the Ottoman Empire was in its dying days.

No, I don't claim that. I clearly state Venizelos and his government appointed Ab Meletios as Patriarch of Constantinople (Ecumenical Patriarch). The Ottoman Empire was in the verge of becoming a modern democracy, Ataturk, the leader of the turkish revolutionaries, was very close to Venizelos and was already plotting against the Ottoman Empire.

Despite territorial disputes and fights for power, Venizelos and Ataturk had a very similar political agenda. Nowdays we can see the realization of the revolutionary plans, Turkey is on it's way to be accepted as an integral part of Western Europe (The European Union).


I suppose the Holy Spirit was at work to reject these changes.  I will not discuss Calendars in this thread.

The Holy Spirit is at work in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where the Gospel is preached in all it's purity and power.

The problem is revolutionaries insist in being guided by the spirit of the father of lies,  instead of being guided by the eternal Paraclete, Spirit of Truth.


Which one, father or son?  You're referring to Andreas Papandreou.  The Church of Greece remained constant under A. Papandreou; Changes surfaced when C. Simitis came to power and accelerated under the current Government.

Andreas Papandreou apparently parked the new Church of Greece on neutral, but he, in his own subtle way, sped up the intense westernizing hellenophobic process. Andreas was responsible for the "simplification" (may I say destruction) of the Greek language, and increase of interreligious exchanges.

I agree with you in what you say about the current Greek Government. This brings to mind the way the State Church of Greece received the Pope officially as a First Hiearch, while the Greek Government made him a distinguished citizen, and gave him the "golden key" of Athens.

Speaking of religious persecution, genocide and the tactic of destroying the religious organizations from within, it was under the auspices of the current Greek Government, that Patriarch Bartholomew I created his own paralel Brotherhood of the Monastery of Esphigmenou.

The Greek Government allegedly sends all correspondence addressed to the Monastery of Esphigmenou, to Patriarch Bartholomew's brotherhood, the bank accounts of Esphigmenou have been transfered to Patriarch Bartholomew's brotherhood, and the greek government granted permission to Patriarch Bartholomew, to trespass real state belonging to Esphigmenou, and start the building of a new monastery, with the same name.







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« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2009, 09:29:00 PM »

MODERATION:
Pravoslav09, it has come to my attention that you are plagiarizing large blocks of text from web sites such as this: http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/ADOGMATIC.htm.  Not only is not crediting your sources bad manners, it may also be a violation of national copyright laws.  Therefore, you are hereby warned formally to acknowledge your sources when you quote them or copy material from their web sites.

In that case, as a moderator, you've got the duty and faculty to edit my posts, and place under quoting marks the texts, citing the source.  To place a text on a public forum is not plagiarizing. 

Please read the copyright laws, and clearly quoting from it, point out, and correct the violations you see in the forum you are responsible for.

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 You are receiving this public warning for disputing a moderatorial decision in public.  I assume since you are posting on this forum that you have read our rules and policies.  If not, please familiarize yourself with them, particularly the bullet regarding respect for the mod/admin staff.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules  If you believe this warning unfair, feel free to appeal my decision to cleveland, the global moderator responsible for overseeing my work on the Faith Issues board.  Just voice your appeal in a private message and not on this board.

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« Reply #100 on: April 06, 2009, 09:36:48 PM »




Now, taking off my moderator's hat and speaking as a mere poster:
Could you please respond to the question of how it's possible for your church to have apostolic succession when the last "catacomb" bishop died in 1976? 


That information is mistaken. There are still catacomb bishops in the former USSR.


Please don't be daunted by the critical language a few of us and I have used here in trying to get information from you. 

I know that, but I am not the subject of the discussion. The Discussion is about the Church, the Tsar, and the Revolutions.

We allow differing points of view here on OC.net, so you are more than welcome to post here.  We may not always agree, and we may even be quite pointed in the questions we ask each other here, but there's certainly room for all of us, regardless of parent jurisdiction.

That's very kind of you Pyetya
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« Reply #101 on: April 06, 2009, 09:46:11 PM »

Pravoslav09, At least you used color to highlight what I said.   Grin

SolEX01 the systematic infiltration of provocative agents, to seize key positions in a religious organization in order to destroy it from the inside, is a common practice. For instance, the the See of Rome was taken by a group of radical revolutionaries that seized key positions, and political control that allowed them to found the Roman Catholic Church in the 11th century, and practically eradicated the Orthodox Church from Western Europe, and other areas of influence.

A very similar strategy was followed by Venizelos and the revolutionary Church of Greece.


The bottom line is the Orthodox Church has prevailed even after man has spent 2,000 years trying to destroy it.  The Orthodox Church will prevail regardless of what political structures come and go.  Christ told Pilate, My Kingdom is not of this World.  If we sit here and argue about Greek and Russian politics, who is losing?

I am speaking about today's democratic State of Greece, founded by Venizelos and other revolutionaries in the 20's, and not about the State of Greece which they betrayed and abolished.

The State of Greece which couldn't agree on its own leaders and submitted themselves to King Otto I, a Danish noble.  That State was neither abolished nor betrayed but grew up too fast for its own good as the Ottoman Empire disintegrated.  Besides, the democratic State of Greece was established in 1975, not in the 1920's although the airport in Athens is named after Venizelos because he had the vision of modern Greece.

Yes I do, the faith and practices are well documented. The True Orthodox Church of Greece is part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, headed by Christ our Lord, who preaches both in words and deeds the Gospel of our Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Others have asked about your Hierarchs and you have responded with silence.  I will not press this issue with you; However, the "catacomb" Hierarch who reposed in 1976 could trace his Apostolic Succession while the Priests have no Hierarch to call their own.

The Old Believers are independent religious groups condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church, on account of their erred teachings, and other canonical violations.

There are, however, some communities called "edinovyeri" who renounced their heresies and came back to the bossom of the Russian Orthodox Church, they are allowed to preserve some of their practices like the use of unabridged liturgical texts.

As far as I know, we don't have edinovyeri communities, and we don't have any Old Believer practices.

Then you have to be substantially different from these organizations you cited.  I've seen vagante Orthodox and other people calling themselves Orthodox.  If you are part of an entity which has no Hierarch, then who ordains your Priests, prepares your Myron, consecrates your Churches, etc.

Wait a minute, Venizelos was a politician, not a Hierarch.  There was a locum tenens in the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920.  The Synod elected Pat. Meletios; you claim they were pressured by Venizelos; I don't see how especially when the Ottoman Empire was in its dying days.

No, I don't claim that. I clearly state Venizelos and his government appointed Ab Meletios as Patriarch of Constantinople (Ecumenical Patriarch).

Could you provide primary proof that Venizelos and the Greek Government appointed Archbishop Meletios?  The research can't be that difficult.   Smiley

The Ottoman Empire was in the verge of becoming a modern democracy, Ataturk, the leader of the turkish revolutionaries, was very close to Venizelos and was already plotting against the Ottoman Empire.

Perhaps the West didn't want these 2 old enemies to become friends especially with Palestine still in play.

Despite territorial disputes and fights for power, Venizelos and Ataturk had a very similar political agenda. Nowdays we can see the realization of the revolutionary plans, Turkey is on it's way to be accepted as an integral part of Western Europe (The European Union).

The "Old Europe" doesn't want Turkey as a full EU member.  The US, well, that is political.   Wink

I suppose the Holy Spirit was at work to reject these changes.  I will not discuss Calendars in this thread.

The Holy Spirit is at work in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where the Gospel is preached in all it's purity and power.

The problem is revolutionaries insist in being guided by the spirit of the father of lies,  instead of being guided by the eternal Paraclete, Spirit of Truth.

I agree with you; However, one needs a Hierarch with unbroken succession back to the Apostles themselves.

Which one, father or son?  You're referring to Andreas Papandreou.  The Church of Greece remained constant under A. Papandreou; Changes surfaced when C. Simitis came to power and accelerated under the current Government.

Andreas Papandreou apparently parked the new Church of Greece on neutral, but he, in his own subtle way, sped up the intense westernizing hellenophobic process. Andreas was responsible for the "simplification" (may I say destruction) of the Greek language, and increase of interreligious exchanges.

I like Andreas Papandreou (May His Memory be Eternal); Greece came a long way under him to the point that I'd rather stay here than go over there.   Wink

I agree with you in what you say about the current Greek Government. This brings to mind the way the State Church of Greece received the Pope officially as a First Hiearch, while the Greek Government made him a distinguished citizen, and gave him the "golden key" of Athens.

If Jesus Christ said love your enemies and even if you feel the Pope is Public Enemy #1, does He deserve to be treated as a neighbor for all of us will be judged by how we treated our enemies and neighbors?  No Pope had visited what is now Greece for over 1,000 years.  You don't have to agree with the Pope nor how the Greek Government chose to acknowledge His brief visit; But displaying love is better than throwing rocks and Molotov Cocktails at Him.   Smiley

Speaking of religious persecution, genocide and the tactic of destroying the religious organizations from within, it was under the auspices of the current Greek Government, that Patriarch Bartholomew I created his own paralel Brotherhood of the Monastery of Esphigmenou.

The Greek Government allegedly sends all correspondence addressed to the Monastery of Esphigmenou, to Patriarch Bartholomew's brotherhood, the bank accounts of Esphigmenou have been transfered to Patriarch Bartholomew's brotherhood, and the greek government granted permission to Patriarch Bartholomew, to trespass real state belonging to Esphigmenou, and start the building of a new monastery, with the same name.

That's not a problem you and I are going to solve; I defer to the Holy Spirit on that one.   Smiley
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« Reply #102 on: April 06, 2009, 10:07:56 PM »

Pravoslav09, what connection does your church have to the Apostolic Succession?


Sorry, Pravoslav09, but this isn't enough for us.  The very legitimacy of your church and your witness here on OC.net depends on what you can tell us in answer to this question.  If your bishops are not properly consecrated within the apostolic succession, then we have no choice but to conclude that your church is a schismatic body.  If you don't want to disclose the details to us, that's fine, but don't expect anyone here to take you seriously, since you will have essentially admitted to your status as a schismatic.

Now, as to your reticence to reveal to us whom your bishop is, I have to say I'm left somewhat suspicious, especially considering that the bishops in your church are rather well known--assuming I have properly identified your church to be the Russian True Orthodox Church.  Just look at these web sites to see what I mean:

http://www.catacomb.org.ua/

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_True_Orthodox_Church

You are mistaken, I am not under the lazarite group.

Quote
Like so many other schismatic groups the “Russian True Orthodox Church” tries to give itself an aura of historical legitimacy. Allusions to it being the natural successor to the Catacomb Church as founded by St Joseph, Metropolitan of Petrograd, are not founded on fact. In reality the last of the Catacomb bishops, Archbishop Antony GalinskyMikhailovsky died in Kiev in 1976 and was survived by a number of priests, but no bishop. Consequently, the Catacomb Church, having no bishop came to an end.

In 1981, the Synod of ROCOR secretly consecrated Fr Lazarus Zhurbenko, an archimandrite, who had been ordained to the diaconate and priesthood by a Moscow Patriarchal hierarch, Archbishop Benjamin Novitsky of Irtutsk; to be bishop for the various catacomb traditions in Russia. By the time Bishop Lazarus was consecrated, the Synod had realised that there were no canonical catacomb traditions left that could show clearly they possessed Apostolic Succession. This was confirmed by Bishop Lazarus himself when he first attended a meeting of the Synod in New York. An Ukase was then issued to this effect based on Bishop Lazarus’ deposition. Therefore, from 1989 onwards, all catacomb clergy coming to ROCOR were ordained anew to ensure their canonical status.
<< http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/RTOC.htm >>
What have you to say to the above allegation, Pravoslav09?

It is true that ROCOR played an important role in the restoration of true orthodox episcopacy in Greece and the former USSR, however, not all catacomb clergy was re ordained by the ROCOR, only clergy from the Moscow Patriarchate was ordained by ROCOR when they joined.

That is all I'll say for now, I feel you are trying to get as much information about my Church and myself as you can, but you will have the information I want you to have.

If I already said I won't answer some questions, and I won't release some information, I have the right to be respected.

Let me remind you that bullying, harrasment, stalking, and the like are violations to the law, and internet evidence where IP and other personal information can be recollected by the authorities, makes all the violations of the law in places like this forum, actionable.

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« Reply #103 on: April 06, 2009, 10:52:57 PM »

That is all I'll say for now, I feel you are trying to get as much information about my Church and myself as you can, but you will have the information I want you to have.

If I already said I won't answer some questions, and I won't release some information, I have the right to be respected.

Let me remind you that bullying, harrasment, stalking, and the like are violations to the law, and internet evidence where IP and other personal information can be recollected by the authorities, makes all the violations of the law in places like this forum, actionable.

I don't think his intention is to stalk you - you have to understand, we get many people from persecuted Churches on here, and we get people who are vagantes who have no legitimate claim to Orthodoxy but who will mislead us into thinking that way.  So when people come around claiming they're from one of the True Orthodox Churches, or the Genuine Orthodox Churches, we want to make sure we know who we're talking about: those who are legitimately Orthodox, and those who are wearing bedsheets and vestments with curtain-rods as episcopal staffs.
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« Reply #104 on: April 06, 2009, 11:07:59 PM »



That is all I'll say for now, I feel you are trying to get as much information about my Church and myself as you can, but you will have the information I want you to have.



And the history you want us to believe as well, it seems. Thanks for addressing none of my questions or comments.  Smiley
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« Reply #105 on: April 06, 2009, 11:15:14 PM »



That is all I'll say for now, I feel you are trying to get as much information about my Church and myself as you can, but you will have the information I want you to have.



And the history you want us to believe as well, it seems. Thanks for addressing none of my questions or comments.  Smiley


What church is this in russia..its mentioned in the christian news section ,i posted there .....


Unfortunately, Orthodox Christianity is antidemocratic and hails authoritarian rule," said Yakunin, who spent years in the gulag for criticizing Soviet religious policies, during an interview in his Moscow office. Today, the 74-year-old priest leads the Apostolic Orthodox Church, a splinter group that is harassed by authorities in Russia and Belarus.
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« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2009, 01:22:09 AM »


Only by the twisted racial recipe of Nazi Germany can you label V. Lenin as a Jew. Both of his parents were Christian. Only his maternal Grandfather was Jewish . So that would not even make his mother Jewish since Jewishness is carried on the  maternal line.

Early you lamented that Hitler has gotten all the blame for the evils of World War Two but the Soviets are let off easy. You seemed to imply that this was some sort of conspiracy. Actually, it is easy to understand. The Soviet Union became the central Allie of the United States. In fact, they did far more of the fighting than any other Allied power including the US. So for better or worse, the western propaganda machine glossed over their crimes for the greater good of defeating Germany.

And when we look at the genocide of the Soviets, who is the central person committing these crimes? It certainly wasn't Lenin who died very shortly after taking power, though his ideology clearly lays the ground work for religious persecution. It was Stalin wasn't it? A Georgian and if I am not mistaken a Baptized Orthodox Christian ( God forgive us).  And wasn't it Trotsky, a Jew, who was Stalin's primary enemy?

What is your opinion of Hitler? Was he on to something good and just misunderstood? Was he more right than wrong? Hero or villain ?

I think a fellow named Godwin once articulated a law of discussions that says that a discussion has outlived its usefulness once someone brings Hitler and Nazis into the mix.  Thank you, Marc, for giving us such an example of Godwin's Law in action. Tongue  BTW, how do you intend your analogy involving Hitler to contribute to this thread?
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« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2009, 01:31:56 AM »

I don't think his intention is to stalk you - you have to understand, we get many people from persecuted Churches on here, and we get people who are vagantes who have no legitimate claim to Orthodoxy but who will mislead us into thinking that way.  So when people come around claiming they're from one of the True Orthodox Churches, or the Genuine Orthodox Churches, we want to make sure we know who we're talking about: those who are legitimately Orthodox, and those who are wearing bedsheets and vestments with curtain-rods as episcopal staffs.

Dear Cleveland Moderator, thank you for your kind message.

I know what you mean, we also have problems with those wanderers and self consacrators, some of them want to be in communion with us, and others plant themselves targeting the Sons and Daughters of the Church, causing confusion, division, and hatred.

One of the reasons why I don't want to give much information about my Church is because this might cause unnecessary series of attacks, and fights, from our detractors and enemies, as well as from our friends and defenders, deviating the discussion from the main topics.

I think the intention of Moderator Peter is to provoke  and corner me, so he can be the victim, and have excuses to attack me and expel me out of this forum. He has already sent me an absurd and obtuse threat in the guise of a warning, simply because I pointed out his mistakes, in a way he didn't like. He accused me of challenging one of his decisions, but he doesn't mention which one.

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« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2009, 02:03:37 AM »

One of the reasons why I don't want to give much information about my Church is because this might cause unnecessary series of attacks, and fights, from our detractors and enemies, as well as from our friends and defenders, deviating the discussion from the main topics.
I guess we have a problem then, since the topic of this thread is legitimate claims to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2009, 02:54:54 AM »

Pravoslav09, At least you used color to highlight what I said.   Grin

Yes I did, I'm learning how to post in here. I wish I could put your comments in those nice squares, but I can't. For replying I use the quote button, because it doesn't have a reply one, however, this makes a mess with the spaces and squares. It's frustrating.

The bottom line is the Orthodox Church has prevailed even after man has spent 2,000 years trying to destroy it.  The Orthodox Church will prevail regardless of what political structures come and go.  Christ told Pilate, My Kingdom is not of this World.  If we sit here and argue about Greek and Russian politics, who is losing?

We are, and this is precisely one of the tactics the enemy of salvation uses to embark us in useless prattling. The Council of Bishops of my Church is very careful, that is why it doesn't make any comment on politics, and only comments on other religious groups, to dissipate doubts, and protect us from temptations.

For instance, there are some groups of Russian True Orthodox Church, who are preaching a softened version of ecumenism. They are very critical towards ecumenism, and other liberal practices of the Patriarchates of Moscow and Constantinople, and at the same time, they consider it to be the Mother Church, and state they can not, in any wise break communion completely with it, nor condemn it.

Seeing many tempted and deceived by that specific Russian True Orthodox Church, the Synod of Bishops of our Church was forced to speak about the origins and doctrines of that group, and warn us that the above mentioned group had unorthodox teachings, and how this group falls under several anathemas.

The State of Greece which couldn't agree on its own leaders and submitted themselves to King Otto I, a Danish noble. 

The Greek Kings, despite their foreign lineage, were defenders and supporters of the Greek Orthodox Church. Tsar Martyr Nicholas II had also danish blood, he was not ethnically Russian.

That State was neither abolished nor betrayed but grew up too fast for its own good as the Ottoman Empire disintegrated.  Besides, the democratic State of Greece was established in 1975, not in the 1920's although the airport in Athens is named after Venizelos because he had the vision of modern Greece.

Venizelos was an official of the Royal Army, and he plotted against the Greek King, who supported the Greek Orthodox Church, and the re emerging of the greek culture and traditions, and finaly conducted a violent Coup D'etat, betraying thus, and destroying the Greek Orthodox Kingdom.

Democracy is a term used to label the liberal revolutionary states, even though some, are actually dictatorships in disguise. According to the constitution of the USSR, people had the right to vote, and decide if they wanted the government to continue, or to have a change of government.

In their beginnings, Venizelo's Greece, and the Soviet Union were open dictatorships, and cynically used force to remove everything from the past, and create a new people, maleable to the state, unable to vindicate their right to be independent individuals. Once the new people was created, the dictatorships did not need the use of that form of violence, and transformed themselves into modern democratic governments.

Others have asked about your Hierarchs and you have responded with silence. 

Sadly I fell into Moderator Peter's provocations, and broke my silence.

I will not press this issue with you;

Thank you, I appreciate your kindness and politeness.

However, the "catacomb" Hierarch who reposed in 1976 could trace his Apostolic Succession while the Priests have no Hierarch to call their own.

This is not quite true, there are catacomb Hiearchs both in Russia, and in other countries, that can clearly trace their Apostolic Succession from Patriarch Tikhon's Moscow Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Filaret, of the ROCOR, gave reports about our Church, and many of his fellow bishops, and other persons laughed at him, they didn't believe him, they believed information like the one posted here, and in other places, where it was said out last Bishop died, and we no longer exist.

Professor Andreyev, catacomb christian and a teacher in the ROCOR seminary that existed in Jordanvilled, used to talk about the time when he met some Catacomb Faithful, in San Francisco, California, USA. He was surprised to know they had hiearchy, and attended services, but did not join the ROCOR. This troubled Professor Andreyev greatly, and he asked the faithful to ask their bishop if his decition to join ROCOR was correct.

Professor Andreyev received a letter of the Catacomb Bishop, in which he explained that it was right to be in ROCOR, and explained to him it was important to make use of the experience of the Catacomb Church in the Motherland, and to conduct Church Life as it is done in Russia by them, because what happened there, could easily happen in the "free" world, and that is the sole reason why they did not join ROCOR.

The words of this Catacomb Bishop prove to be useful and prophetic. We see how ROCOR began to be attacked from all sides,and from the inside, and how much harm was done. A good example is the formation of the OCA, one of the most pernicious and destructive illegal breakaway factions of ROCOR.  


Could you provide primary proof that Venizelos and the Greek Government appointed Archbishop Meletios?  The research can't be that difficult.   Smiley

Help me out on this one. *playful kidding*

The "Old Europe" doesn't want Turkey as a full EU member.  The US, well, that is political.   Wink

The Old Europe doesn't want Spain as a full EU member, it was always considered that Europe starts after the pyrinees. However for geopolitical reasons, Spain was like the nasty foreign "mother in law" Europe needed to include as a bastion. A similar thing is happening with Turkey, EU needs it as a bastion to keep asians and north africans in order. Yes asians, arabs are asians.


I agree with you; However, one needs a Hierarch with unbroken succession back to the Apostles themselves.

I agree with you totally. Unbroken succesion back to the apostles is determined by those who faithfully preach the Gospel.

Those who separated themselves from the Church and all those coming from them (catholics, anglicans, armenian orthodox, Moscow Patriarchate, coptics....) continue to preach a different gospel, and do not have apposlotic succession, and all their acts, including orders, remain invalid and void. Not in vain the Church declared anathema on them.

They preserve the external forms, to a lesser or greater degree, but they do not have true apostolic succession.


I like Andreas Papandreou (May His Memory be Eternal); Greece came a long way under him to the point that I'd rather stay here than go over there.   Wink

You!!!!!!! hehehheheh


If Jesus Christ said love your enemies and even if you feel the Pope is Public Enemy #1, does He deserve to be treated as a neighbor for all of us will be judged by how we treated our enemies and neighbors?  No Pope had visited what is now Greece for over 1,000 years.  You don't have to agree with the Pope nor how the Greek Government chose to acknowledge His brief visit; But displaying love is better than throwing rocks and Molotov Cocktails at Him.   Smiley

Yes, you are right, however, it is an act of hatred from the State Church of Greece, to accept the Pope and his Church, instead of calling them to repentance. It is also an act of denial of Christ, to accept him to defile the Holy Temples, and concelebrate as "equal".

Whatever politicians do, it's in their conscience, but whatever a religious organization does using the name of the Church, and God in vain, must be exposed and rejected by every true christian and by the Church, otherwise we partake of all that betrayal and denial of Christ. By silence, God is betrayed.

Of course! we are not going to even try to stop the great apostasy with our weak hand, as Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov said, but we, as True Orthodox Christians are called to hold fast to what we have, to be firm in Christ, to cling to Him Jesus Christ Victory! and in Him, His victory is already ours.


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« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2009, 03:40:36 AM »

Yes I did, I'm learning how to post in here. I wish I could put your comments in those nice squares, but I can't. For replying I use the quote button, because it doesn't have a reply one, however, this makes a mess with the spaces and squares. It's frustrating.

I have just posted some tips which may help you in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20616.0.html
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« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2009, 03:44:09 AM »

Yes I did, I'm learning how to post in here. I wish I could put your comments in those nice squares, but I can't. For replying I use the quote button, because it doesn't have a reply one, however, this makes a mess with the spaces and squares. It's frustrating.

I have just posted some tips which may help you in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20616.0.html

Thank you m8, I appreciate it. G'day!
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« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2009, 03:53:54 AM »

Quote
According to the constitution of the USSR, people had the right to vote, and decide if they wanted the government to continue, or to have a change of government.


Pravoslav09, I dare you to repeat those words to anyone who has lived in the pre-glasnost USSR, particularly during the time of Stalin's rule (yes, there are plenty of them still alive). Your grasp of history is looking increasingly shaky.
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« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2009, 04:03:22 AM »

According to the constitution of the USSR, people had the right to vote, and decide if they wanted the government to continue, or to have a change of government.



How old are you, boyo?

Don't you remember the free elections in the Soviet Union when there was only ONE Party, the Communist Party. and when there was only ONE candidate for every seat (the Communist candidate) and when the result of the free elections was that the Communist Party recived 99.9% of the vote.

(Sorry. LBK, I see that you have posted much the same response.)

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« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2009, 04:08:40 AM »

(Sorry. LBK, I see that you have posted much the same response.)

No problem, Father. The more the merrier!  laugh
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« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2009, 06:35:26 AM »

Yes I did, I'm learning how to post in here. I wish I could put your comments in those nice squares, but I can't. For replying I use the quote button, because it doesn't have a reply one, however, this makes a mess with the spaces and squares. It's frustrating.

I have just posted some tips which may help you in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20616.0.html

Thank you m8, I appreciate it. G'day!
You are more than welcome!
And I'm glad to see you use the Australian Blessing! G'day to you too!
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« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2009, 10:02:29 AM »

Only by the twisted racial recipe of Bunny Briar Patch can you label Michelangelo as a Jew. Both of his parents were Christian. Only his maternal Grandfather was Jewish . So that would not even make his mother Jewish since Jewishness is carried on the  maternal line.

Early you lamented that Peter Rabbit has gotten all the blame for the evils of World War Two but the Turtles are let off easy. You seemed to imply that this was some sort of conspiracy. Actually, it is easy to understand. The Galapagos Islands became the central Ally of the United States. In fact, they did far more of the fighting than any other Allied power including the US. So, for better or worse, the western propaganda machine glossed over their crimes for the greater good of defeating the Briar Patch.

And when we look at the genocide of the Turtles, who is the central person committing these crimes? It certainly wasn't Michelangelo who died very shortly after taking power, though his ideology clearly lays the ground work for religious persecution. It was Leonardo wasn't it? A Georgian and if I am not mistaken a Baptized Orthodox Christian ( God forgive us).  And wasn't it Trotsky, a Jew, who was Leonardo's primary enemy?

What is your opinion of Peter Rabbit? Was he on to something good and just misunderstood? Was he more right than wrong? Hero or villain ?
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« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2009, 10:12:19 AM »


How old are you, boyo?

Don't you remember the free elections in the Soviet Union when there was only ONE Party, the Communist Party. and when there was only ONE candidate for every seat (the Communist candidate) and when the result of the free elections was that the Communist Party recived 99.9% of the vote.


The voting system in the USSR consisted on a referendum. People answered questions with YES and NO, and this determined if the system could continue or not.

The voting sheet was numbered, and in the list of people voting, the sheet number was registered in the passport (carnet, historial) of each person by the authorities. People knew they were closely monitored by the authorities, and this is why everyone voted in favour of the regime.

That comment I posted, was part of the government's propaganda, we all know voting and freedom of religion did not exist, just as we know now, democracy is still a hoax in the former communist block.


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« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2009, 10:17:32 AM »


Pravoslav09, I dare you to repeat those words to anyone who has lived in the pre-glasnost USSR, particularly during the time of Stalin's rule (yes, there are plenty of them still alive). Your grasp of history is looking increasingly shaky.

I urge you to take a look at the constitution of the USSR and ask anyone who lived there to tell you about what I said.

Political openess (glasnost) does not exist, the very same group is still in control of the government in Russia, and the new nations formed after the dismantlement of the USSR.

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« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2009, 10:20:36 AM »


You are more than welcome!
And I'm glad to see you use the Australian Blessing! G'day to you too!

 laugh  laugh  See you round like a doughnut! Arvo!
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« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2009, 12:47:11 PM »

Only by the twisted racial recipe of Bunny Briar Patch can you label Michelangelo as a Jew. Both of his parents were Christian. Only his maternal Grandfather was Jewish . So that would not even make his mother Jewish since Jewishness is carried on the  maternal line.

Early you lamented that Peter Rabbit has gotten all the blame for the evils of World War Two but the Turtles are let off easy. You seemed to imply that this was some sort of conspiracy. Actually, it is easy to understand. The Galapagos Islands became the central Ally of the United States. In fact, they did far more of the fighting than any other Allied power including the US. So, for better or worse, the western propaganda machine glossed over their crimes for the greater good of defeating the Briar Patch.

And when we look at the genocide of the Turtles, who is the central person committing these crimes? It certainly wasn't Michelangelo who died very shortly after taking power, though his ideology clearly lays the ground work for religious persecution. It was Leonardo wasn't it? A Georgian and if I am not mistaken a Baptized Orthodox Christian ( God forgive us).  And wasn't it Trotsky, a Jew, who was Leonardo's primary enemy?

What is your opinion of Peter Rabbit? Was he on to something good and just misunderstood? Was he more right than wrong? Hero or villain ?

Hmmm.......... Hitler = Peter Rabbit

Interesting perspective... Odd, but interesting
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« Reply #121 on: April 07, 2009, 02:34:42 PM »

In that case, as a moderator, you've got the duty and faculty to edit my posts, and place under quoting marks the texts, citing the source.  To place a text on a public forum is not plagiarizing.  

No, to post text without providing citation is to claim it as your own, which indeed is plagiarizing.

Please read the copyright laws, and clearly quoting from it, point out, and correct the violations you see in the forum you are responsible for.

He's made clear the procedure.  Not only is it the law, but it's also our site's policy, which is why it must be followed.

A moderator moderates, he does not exacerbate. Follow the example of Father Anastasii and the Cincinnati moderators.

He was moderating: if you have quoted the text, then it is primarily your responsibility to make the citations - the moderators are not publishing editors who insert the citations when they're lacking, the moderator is responsible to find violations of policy, point them out to the user, and meter out whatever kind of response is necessary, whether it be a reminder, directions, or a warning.

If you can't do your work, step aside and let others do it for you.

That's not very charitable.  His post to you was not done in anger, and not done to humiliate you, but was rather a corrective measure designed to keep your posting in line with the site's standards and the law's requirements, so you can continue to be an active and productive member of this site.

Just as an FYI: Any and all disputes with moderation should be taken up via PM with the moderator in question, or the Global Moderator that supervises them (me, in this particular case), or with the Administrator of the Forum (FrChris).

(PS - Moderation generally will be colored in Green, like my note above, or in a few instances in red or purple.)
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« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2009, 03:03:05 PM »

Hmmm.......... Hitler = Peter Rabbit

Interesting perspective... Odd, but interesting

Ahh, didn't get the joke, where "Nazis" was replaced with "bunnies" and "Soviets" with "turtles."  My comment was along the lines of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_law
Quote from: wiki
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Click on the "Godwin's Law" tag at bottom to see many other instances of this phenomenon on this site.
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« Reply #123 on: April 07, 2009, 04:23:50 PM »



Quote
No, to post text without providing citation is to claim it as your own, which indeed is plagiarizing.

Given that we all use pseudonyms, and act pretty much not as individuals, but as personas, I didn't see it the way you present it to me. Thank you for your correction.


Quote
He's made clear the procedure.  Not only is it the law, but it's also our site's policy, which is why it must be followed.

And I totally agree with it.


Quote
He was moderating: if you have quoted the text, then it is primarily your responsibility to make the citations

I'll keep this in mind in the future. But I think it's a shared responsibility, because you are the bosses in here.

It's like if I'm hired to be the host of a Talk Show, and my guests get out of control, even though they are responsible for their own actions, I have the full responsibility, and I have to make apologies on their behalf, correct the things they said, etc.

Quote
- the moderators are not publishing editors who insert the citations when they're lacking,

Yet, as I've seen you edit posts.

Quote
the moderator is responsible to find violations of policy, point them out to the user, and meter out whatever kind of response is necessary, whether it be a reminder, directions, or a warning.

Oh I see.


Quote
That's not very charitable.  His post to you was not done in anger, and not done to humiliate you, but was rather a corrective measure designed to keep your posting in line with the site's standards and the law's requirements, so you can continue to be an active and productive member of this site.

I admit it, I was mean.

Quote
Just as an FYI: Any and all disputes with moderation should be taken up via PM with the moderator in question, or the Global Moderator that supervises them (me, in this particular case), or with the Administrator of the Forum (FrChris).

I'll take all of that into consideration, and I comply to your policies.
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« Reply #124 on: April 07, 2009, 08:40:03 PM »

Hmmm.......... Hitler = Peter Rabbit

Interesting perspective... Odd, but interesting

Ahh, didn't get the joke, where "Nazis" was replaced with "bunnies" and "Soviets" with "turtles."  My comment was along the lines of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_law
Quote from: wiki
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Click on the "Godwin's Law" tag at bottom to see many other instances of this phenomenon on this site.

Right you are.. I totally didn't get it. 

Thanks
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« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2009, 10:09:15 PM »

Quote
What church is this in russia..its mentioned in the christian news section ,i posted there .....

The Moscow Patriarchate stashko. The OCA and the new ROCOR were mentioned too.

The OCA was formed in America by an illegal breakaway faction of Bishops and Clergy, who decided to leave the ROCOR to go under the Moscow Patriarchate as an authonomous (self rulling) jurisdicction with it's own semi-independent Council of Bishops with the right to elect their First Hiearch, do their own publications, statements and sermons, as well as to develop their own progam for theological education. OCA began to be recognized by the other Patriarchates in the 70's, but with reserves, and it was only recently, it gained full recognition.

The new ROCOR, founded in 2001 by an illegal breakaway faction of Bishops and Clergy, headed by Ab Laurus, was formed in a similar way than OCA, but once it joined the Moscow Patriarchate in 2007, it became an integral part of the Council of Bishops of the MP, under the direct authority and close scrutiny of the Patriarch and the government authorities.

The election of a new First Hiearch in ROCOR under MP, has to be previously discussed, and approved directly by the Patriarch, and the Russian President. All their public statements, publications, and sermons, theological education, have to be previously censored and approved by the comitee of the MP, and all their activities are closely monitored. The most important statements and publications are produced in Moscow, and are published in an identical form both by the MP and the ROCOR under MP.

During the services of ROCOR under MP, the Patriarch is commemorated in the way posted in the Church News Board, after that, the name of Metropolitan Hilarion, and then of the local Bishop.


Quote
Unfortunately, Orthodox Christianity is antidemocratic and hails authoritarian rule," said Yakunin, who spent years in the gulag for criticizing Soviet religious policies, during an interview in his Moscow office. Today, the 74-year-old priest leads the Apostolic Orthodox Church, a splinter group that is harassed by authorities in Russia and Belarus.

Yakutin was right, Orthodox Christianity is Monarchist, and antidemocratic, the head is our Lord and King, Christ, and our guide is the Holy Spirit, not the voice of people.

Yakutin's church, is still critical about the Moscow Patriarchate, and the authorities, but, at the same time, they stress out the importance of not condemning them, because they are still legitimate authorities, whom we all need to respect and obey, as much as possible. This is why Yacunnin could get registration and start his church. If he was true opponent of the authorities and the MP, he would have been killed, and his church would not have a registration.

Вог вам помогао Сташко!
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« Reply #126 on: April 07, 2009, 10:21:00 PM »

Pravoslav09, thank you for understanding.  I hope you find your time on OC.net to be worthwhile!
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« Reply #127 on: April 07, 2009, 10:29:04 PM »

Pravoslav09, thank you for understanding.  I hope you find your time on OC.net to be worthwhile!

Sweet! Thank you for bearing with me, I'll do my best to be a good witness of Christ in this forum.

I won't promise to be perfect, but I promise to give it my best try.  Cheesy


 
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« Reply #128 on: April 07, 2009, 11:50:52 PM »

Pravoslav09, congratulations for mastering quotes.   Grin  I'll be brief in my comments.   Smiley

Quote from: Pravoslav09
We are, and this is precisely one of the tactics the enemy of salvation uses to embark us in useless prattling. The Council of Bishops of my Church is very careful, that is why it doesn't make any comment on politics, and only comments on other religious groups, to dissipate doubts, and protect us from temptations.

Religion and Politics must be separate; However, as Christ told Pilate, God gave Pilate the authority to rule and God has allowed all these secular governments to take shape because God loves mankind and hopes that mankind will discover Christ, to the chagrin of the enemy of salvation.  No one wants to be betrayed by another person; such betrayal pales to what Christ suffered for us.  For example, I can be upset at the former President of my fraternal men's organization for resigning and I can't hold that against him.

Quote from: Pravoslav09
This is not quite true, there are catacomb Hiearchs both in Russia, and in other countries, that can clearly trace their Apostolic Succession from Patriarch Tikhon's Moscow Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Filaret, of the ROCOR, gave reports about our Church, and many of his fellow bishops, and other persons laughed at him, they didn't believe him, they believed information like the one posted here, and in other places, where it was said out last Bishop died, and we no longer exist.

Jesus said, "I am the Vine and you are the branches."  What would happen if your last branch died?

Quote from: Pravoslav09
The words of this Catacomb Bishop prove to be useful and prophetic. We see how ROCOR began to be attacked from all sides,and from the inside, and how much harm was done. A good example is the formation of the OCA, one of the most pernicious and destructive illegal breakaway factions of ROCOR.

Why hasn't the Orthodox Church schismed due to the creation of the OCA? 

Quote from: Pravoslav09
Yes, you are right, however, it is an act of hatred from the State Church of Greece, to accept the Pope and his Church, instead of calling them to repentance. It is also an act of denial of Christ, to accept him to defile the Holy Temples, and concelebrate as "equal".

Whatever politicians do, it's in their conscience, but whatever a religious organization does using the name of the Church, and God in vain, must be exposed and rejected by every true christian and by the Church, otherwise we partake of all that betrayal and denial of Christ. By silence, God is betrayed.

Silence can be a good thing as well as Christ stood silent before Pilate.  We can't smack people around like St. Nicholas did to Arius during the Council of Nicaea.   Wink

Quote from: Pravoslav09
Of course! we are not going to even try to stop the great apostasy with our weak hand, as Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov said, but we, as True Orthodox Christians are called to hold fast to what we have, to be firm in Christ, to cling to Him Jesus Christ Victory! and in Him, His victory is already ours.

Amen!
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« Reply #129 on: April 07, 2009, 11:54:08 PM »

Given that we all use pseudonyms, and act pretty much not as individuals, but as personas,

I don't have a persona on this forum.  What I post is what you get with me.   Smiley  I seek not to offend anyone and I prompty apologize if I have offended anyone.   angel
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« Reply #130 on: April 08, 2009, 09:43:48 AM »

Pravoslav09, congratulations for mastering quotes. 

Thank you SolEX01 ozgeorge is an excellent teacher. Few tips from him and Voilá!

Quote
Grin  I'll be brief in my comments.   Smiley

I try to that as well, and KISS* as mush as possible.

*KISS = Keep It Super Simple.

Quote
Religion and Politics must be separate;

As it's seen in the Holy Scriptures. The true servants of God, who recognized Christ, the messiah, stayed away from politics, while the pharisees (jews) became politicians, and used the State of the Roman Empire, to murder Him.

Quote
However, as Christ told Pilate, God gave Pilate the authority to rule and God has allowed all these secular governments to take shape because God loves mankind and hopes that mankind will discover Christ, to the chagrin of the enemy of salvation. 


In the Scriptures we see God allows His people to fall under the authority of secular cruel governments, to on one hand, chastising them for being impious and abandoning Him, and on the other, so His faithful servants can bear witness of Him and bring others to know the One True God.

In order to reveal Himself to mankind, Christ sent messengers to speak about His future coming down to earth, incarnation, sufferings, resurrection and second coming, and revealed Himself to mankind by actions when He came down to earth, fulfilled the words of His messengers, and established the Church on Earth, so that others might truly know Him, and be saved.

God allowed the theomachist (God-fighting) antichristian authorities to establish themselves in the Russian Empire, the Kingdom of Greece, and other Christian Kingdoms, because people abandoned God.
 
Quote
No one wants to be betrayed by another person; such betrayal pales to what Christ suffered for us. 

Yes, that's so true.

Quote
For example, I can be upset at the former President of my fraternal men's organization for resigning and I can't hold that against him.

I'm sorry to hear that. Though it's hurting you, it's good for you to forgive him, wish him well, be nice to him, and the like, as Christ Himself taught us.

Quote
Jesus said, "I am the Vine and you are the branches."  What would happen if your last branch died?

The True Vine is always with me, and He can grow new branches. We survive by clinging to the True Vine, not to the fallen branches infected by the enemy of salvation, resting on the pestilent mud of iniquity.

Quote
Why hasn't the Orthodox Church schismed due to the creation of the OCA? 

Because the Church, as the Body of Christ, is One and Indivisible, and no group formed by those who separte themselves from Christ and become His betrayers, can cause any harm to the Church.  Just like the separation of Iskariot did not cause any division among the apostles, because they were all One in Christ.

Quote
Silence can be a good thing as well as Christ stood silent before Pilate. 

This kind of silence was because Christ accepted His Cross, and this is what we should use when God sends us crosses (sorrows), we should not complaint, but accept them for His sake.

Quote
We can't smack people around like St. Nicholas did to Arius during the Council of Nicaea.   Wink


Of course we can't. For instance, How could we smack a police officer in full gear, who is protected by a shield and throws tear gas bombs to us. I personally wouldn't smack anyone, that's for girls, it's better to use our fists.  laugh  laugh  laugh  laugh



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« Reply #131 on: April 11, 2009, 08:35:53 PM »

In that case the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is not part of the True Orthodox Church since it is willing to pray for those who kill themselves.

Exactly, the ROCA under the Moscow Patriarchate, founded by Ab. Laurus Skurla in 2001 departed from the True Orthodox Church, to join the most liberal and anti-orthodox Patriarchate, founded by the Soviet Government and Patriarch Sergius in 1927.

Quote
In fact, if praying for suicides knocks a Church out of the True Orthodox Church then there simply is no True Orthodox Church.  ALL Orthodox Churches pray the Third of the Kneeling Prayers at Pentecost which prays for those who have killed themselves.

This is one of the many innovations of World Orthodoxy, it constitutes an attack against the faith and tradition of the True Orthodox Church. And you are correct, by their innovations in faith and practices, they set themselves outside the Church, and subject themselves to anathema (condemnation)

{Edit - fixed quote tags - Cleveland, GM}
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« Reply #132 on: April 12, 2009, 12:06:37 AM »

This is one of the many innovations of World Orthodoxy, it constitutes an attack against the faith and tradition of the True Orthodox Church. And you are correct, by their innovations in faith and practices, they set themselves outside the Church, and subject themselves to anathema (condemnation)
Condemnation by whom?  I'm kinda of the opinion that an anathema from your church may actually be a good thing, for it separates the condemner from the condemned just as much as it separates the condemned from the condemner.
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« Reply #133 on: April 12, 2009, 12:22:20 AM »

This is one of the many innovations of World Orthodoxy, it constitutes an attack against the faith and tradition of the True Orthodox Church. And you are correct, by their innovations in faith and practices, they set themselves outside the Church, and subject themselves to anathema (condemnation)
Condemnation by whom?  I'm kinda of the opinion that an anathema from your church may actually be a good thing, for it separates the condemner from the condemned just as much as it separates the condemned from the condemner.

Condemned by the Church. You won't leave me alone Will you? As soon as I learn how to do it, I'll unregistre and leave this site for good because of you Peter The Aluet.
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« Reply #134 on: April 12, 2009, 12:37:50 AM »

Brothers,
It is Holy Week.
For the sake of Christ, Who rode a humble donkey up the slopes of Jerusalem, please forgive each other.

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