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Author Topic: Orthodox use of the Rosary  (Read 18440 times) Average Rating: 0
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« on: April 02, 2009, 01:59:27 PM »

I have heard that some in the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese use the rosary. I was wondering if they use different mysteries (Joyous/Sorrowful,etc.), or if the Roman Catholic Mysteries are used?
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 02:36:34 PM »

I have heard that some in the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese use the rosary. I was wondering if they use different mysteries (Joyous/Sorrowful,etc.), or if the Roman Catholic Mysteries are used?
From what I have read St. Seraphim of Serov used reintroduced the Rosay in Russia but that the EO Rosary has diffrent mysteries. Also, I have heard that EO Christians are not encouraged to imagine the mysteries as Catholics are.
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 02:47:38 PM »

I have heard that some in the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese use the rosary. I was wondering if they use different mysteries (Joyous/Sorrowful,etc.), or if the Roman Catholic Mysteries are used?
From what I have read St. Seraphim of Serov used reintroduced the Rosay in Russia but that the EO Rosary has diffrent mysteries. Also, I have heard that EO Christians are not encouraged to imagine the mysteries as Catholics are.
Does anyone know what these mysteries are? Is this a faithful representation of the Orthodox Mysteries of the Rosary?
http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary#foot1
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 09:08:43 AM »

I have heard that some in the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese use the rosary. I was wondering if they use different mysteries (Joyous/Sorrowful,etc.), or if the Roman Catholic Mysteries are used?
From what I have read St. Seraphim of Serov used reintroduced the Rosay in Russia but that the EO Rosary has diffrent mysteries. Also, I have heard that EO Christians are not encouraged to imagine the mysteries as Catholics are.
Does anyone know what these mysteries are? Is this a faithful representation of the Orthodox Mysteries of the Rosary?
http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary#foot1
Anyone? Hello?
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 11:23:21 AM »

I have heard that some in the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese use the rosary. I was wondering if they use different mysteries (Joyous/Sorrowful,etc.), or if the Roman Catholic Mysteries are used?
From what I have read St. Seraphim of Serov used reintroduced the Rosay in Russia but that the EO Rosary has diffrent mysteries. Also, I have heard that EO Christians are not encouraged to imagine the mysteries as Catholics are.
Does anyone know what these mysteries are? Is this a faithful representation of the Orthodox Mysteries of the Rosary?
http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary#foot1

Hmmm, I`m sceptical about this rosary . Personally i see no mystery or sacrement in it .
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 11:28:25 AM »

There are no mysteries attached to any so-called Orthodox rosary. We have our prayer rope with which we recite the Jesus Prayer. What need we more?
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 11:46:35 AM »

I was just wondering if the link that I provided above was faithful to the way some Western Rite Orthodox pray the rosary. Is it?
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 12:41:08 PM »

There are no mysteries attached to any so-called Orthodox rosary. We have our prayer rope with which we recite the Jesus Prayer. What need we more?
St. Serapim of Serov disagrees with you.
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 01:01:12 PM »

AFAIK Western Rite Orthodox at least in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate use the traditional RC Rosary (which has more than one variation) and mysteries (the same in all traditional forms).
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 01:09:47 PM »

You all haven't witnessed the elderly ladies saying the rosary Sunday mornings before Divine Liturgy in some Orthodox Churches.  Not that I will ever reveal where though and exactly what high ranking church official had to say about it.. "you boys leave the little old ladies alone to say their rosaries, they learned it in Catholic grade school 60-70 years ago and they're the only ones saying it now..."
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 03:19:12 PM »

AFAIK Western Rite Orthodox at least in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate use the traditional RC Rosary (which has more than one variation) and mysteries (the same in all traditional forms).
Is this true? Does anyone else know? Do they use the Luminous Mysteries, introduced by Pope John Paul II, as well? What are the other variations that can be used? Thanks to all for the input.
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 06:15:56 PM »

In the icons of St. Seraphim I've seen he's depicted with an Old Believer prayer rope.
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 06:53:57 PM »

I am aware of St. Seraphim's use of the rosary. I just want to know what the use in the Western Rite is. What are these variations that The young fogey speaks of?
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 10:45:40 PM »

There are different Rosaries but the Dominican is the best known and most widely prayed:

The Dominican Rosary

1. Say the Sign of the Cross on the Crucifix and then the Apostles' Creed .
2. Say an Our Father on the first large bead.
3. Say a Hail Mary on each of the three small beads.
4. Say a Glory be. 
5. Announce the Mystery.
6. Say an Our Father on the large bead.
7. Say a Hail Mary on the each of the ten small beads while meditating on the Mystery.
8. Say a Glory be.
9. Repeat steps 5-8 for each of the following decades.
10. Conclude with a Hail Holy Queen on the medal.

The Joyful Mysteries:
The Annunciation
The Visitation
The Nativity
The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple
The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple

The Sorrowful Mysteries:
The Agony in the Garden
The Scourging at the Pillar
The Crowning with Thorns
The Carrying of the Cross
The Crucifixion

The Glorious Mysteries:
The Resurrection
The Ascension
The Descent of the Holy Spirit
The Assumption
The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Pope John Paul II of blessed memory introduced the optional
Luminous Mysteries:
The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan
The Wedding at Cana
Jesus' Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
The Transfiguration
The Institution of the Eucharist

The Franciscan Rosary of the Seven Joys of the Mother of God

1. Announce the First Joy and Say the Our Father on the 5th bead from the Cross.
2. Say one Hail Mary for each of the ten beads.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 for the 2nd through the 7th Joys.
4. Say Two Hail Mary's two complete 72 years of Mary's Joy on the 4th and 3rd beads from the Cross.
5. Say Our Father and Glory Be for the intention of the Holy Father on the 2nd bead from the Cross.
6. Say Hail Mary on the 1st bead from the Cross

The Seven Joys:
The Annunciation
The Visitation
The Nativity
The Adoration by the Magi
The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple
The Resurrection
The Assumption


The Servite Rosary of the Seven Sorrows of the Mother of God

1. Announce the First Sorrow; then say the Our Father on the large bead.
2. Say seven Hail Marys, on the seven small beads while meditating on the Sorrow.
3. Repeat 1 and 2 continuing through all seven Sorrows.
4. Say three Hail Marys in honor of the Tears of Our Sorrowful Mother.
5. Say an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be for the intention of the Holy Father.

The Seven Sorrows:
The Prophecy of Simeon
The Flight into Egypt
The Loss of Jesus in the Temple,
The Mother of God meeting Jesus on the road to Calvary
The Crucifixion
The Taking down of Jesus' body from the Cross
The Laying of Jesus’ body in the Tomb.


The Brigittine Rosary

The Brigittine Rosary consists of 6 decades of 10 beads each.  There are 3 additional beads at the end.  Each decade consists of 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Marys.  The Apostle's Creed is said on the Crucifix.  The 63 Hail Marys are in remembrance of the 63 years of Mary's earthly life according to one traditional account.  The 7 Our Fathers, said on the large beads between each decade, are in remembrance of the Seven Sorrows and Seven Joys of the Blessed Virgin.

Rule of the Mother of God given by St. Seraphim of Sarov
as related by Father Alexander Gumanovsky, a spiritual son of Father Zosima, who was a spiritual son of St. Seraphim of Sarov. 

150 Hail Marys with an Our Father and the prayer: Open unto us the door of thy loving-kindness, O blessed Mother of God, in that we set our hope on thee, may we not go astray; but through thee may we be delivered from all adversities, fix thou art the salvation of all Christian people after every ten Hail Marys.  It may be reduce to 50 Hail Marys.

The Mysteries used by Bishop Seraphim Zvezdinsky, a contemporary of Fr. Zosima:
1. The Birth of the Theotokos
2. The Presentation of the Theotokos
3. The Annunciation 
4. The Visitation
5. The Nativity
6. The Meeting with St. Simeon
7. The Flight into Egypt
8. The Finding in the Temple
9. The Wedding at Cana
10. The Crucifixion
11. The Resurrection
12. The Ascension 
13. Pentecost
14. The Dormition
15. The Protection of the Theotokos


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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 11:16:12 PM »

I hope I don't scandalize any of my fellow EO brothers or sisters, but here's my take on the Rosary.  I used to pray it and loved doing so, but I got a lot of flack and guilt for doing so, so I gave it up.  But to me, it's a beautiful tradition, though it doesn't necessarily come from our tradition.  Think about it; verses of the Holy Bible are read (and they're about Christ and His [our] Mother) and then there are the prayers to the Theotokos.  Again, I don't wish to scandalize anyone, but to me, though the Rosary is not our tradition, it seems completely orthodox (little 'o') to me.  If I am wrong, I apologize.  But could anyone please show me why I am wrong (with the understanding, of course, that it could be 'tweaked' a little [such as the Creed])?
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 12:51:42 AM »

You don't need to apologize, my brother. It is a beautiful expression of our devotion. I personally don't use it nor do I intend to but I can certainly see that there is much truth in this tradition. The fact is... there is truth in all Christian traditions  but the fullness of the truth is found only within Orthodoxy. It seems to me that your best approach would be to speak with your priest and/or spiritual advisor. In my case, my spiritual father told me point blank to stick with the Orthodox prayer rope... so I do. It is enough for me... after all... I'm just a simple man and praying: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner... is enough.
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 01:14:36 PM »

Thanks to all for the encouraging words. And thanks to Deacon Lance for all that info. That was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a bunch. God Bless.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2009, 07:57:27 AM »

Saying the Rosary privately of course is not a problem. In church it's a Western Rite, Western Catholic thing. In addition to Fr Deacon Lance's description of different chaplets I meant there are different ways of saying the Rosary with the 15 traditional mysteries: the actual Dominican one is different from the common one and there is an older version of the common one that begins with the same versicles and responses as the Divine Office (hours) and not the Apostles' Creed, Our Father and three Hail Marys.

From about two years ago on the objection that the Rosary uses fantasy in prayer:

...the oft cited "one is required to use their imagination with the Mysteries" is not true. One is instructed to meditate on the Mysteries much as one is instucted to meditate with icons. Never has the teaching of the Church on this prayer been to "fantasize" about being at the Nativity, Crucifixion, etc.
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2009, 02:37:59 PM »

Saying the Rosary privately of course is not a problem. In church it's a Western Rite, Western Catholic thing. In addition to Fr Deacon Lance's description of different chaplets I meant there are different ways of saying the Rosary with the 15 traditional mysteries: the actual Dominican one is different from the common one and there is an older version of the common one that begins with the same versicles and responses as the Divine Office (hours) and not the Apostles' Creed, Our Father and three Hail Marys.
Thanks for all the info to you as well. Do you know of a web site I could go to, or some other source, that describes these other ways that you speak of? God Bless.
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2009, 02:44:17 PM »

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary.html

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Rosary
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2009, 02:53:20 PM »

Thanks to you Papist. I have started saying the rosary, and find it very fulfilling. God Bless.
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2009, 03:00:06 PM »

Thanks to you Papist. I have started saying the rosary, and find it very fulfilling. God Bless.
You are welcome dear brother. You have rekindled my devotion to Our Lady through the Rosary in my prayer life. Thank you for that.
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2009, 03:05:55 PM »

You are welcome dear brother. You have rekindled my devotion to Our Lady through the Rosary in my prayer life. Thank you for that.
God Bless You too brother!
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2009, 03:07:04 PM »


15. The Protection of the Theotokos



Is the Proection of the Thotokos a mystery in her life? Can you expand on this?
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 03:12:26 PM »

Is the Protection of the Theotokos a mystery in her life? Can you expand on this?
Fifteenth decade: Let us remember the glory of the Mother of God, with which the Lord crowned her after her removal from earth to heaven. Let us pray to the Queen of Heaven not to abandon the faithful who are on earth but to defend them from every evil, covering them with her honoring and protecting veil.
Perhaps this doesn't answer your question. I hope it does. It is from the web site you gave me, so I probably haven't told you anything that you didn't already know. God Bless.
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2009, 03:31:57 PM »

Isn't the real difference between normal Roman Catholic use of the rosary, and St. Seraphim using a prayer rope to say the Rejoice O Theotokos and the our Father that the latter did not include meditating on a mystery?
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2009, 03:34:00 PM »

Isn't the real difference between normal Roman Catholic use of the rosary, and St. Seraphim using a prayer rope to say the Rejoice O Theotokos and the our Father that the latter did not include meditating on a mystery?
No, he did meditate on mysteries. Papist gave a link above of the mysteries that Saint Seraphim used.
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2009, 03:57:10 PM »

No, he did meditate on mysteries. Papist gave a link above of the mysteries that Saint Seraphim used.

Seraphim Zvezdinsky used those mysteries, St. Seraphim of Sarov, as far as I can tell, did not.

I quite like the rosary myself, so I have no personal objection to it, but I wonder how the practice of meditating on something specific while praying fits in with the call to only focus on the words of the prayer, banishing all other thoughts and images, that we find in most Orthodox works on prayer.
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 12:54:42 AM »

Is the Protection of the Theotokos a mystery in her life? Can you expand on this?
Fifteenth decade: Let us remember the glory of the Mother of God, with which the Lord crowned her after her removal from earth to heaven. Let us pray to the Queen of Heaven not to abandon the faithful who are on earth but to defend them from every evil, covering them with her honoring and protecting veil.
Perhaps this doesn't answer your question. I hope it does. It is from the web site you gave me, so I probably haven't told you anything that you didn't already know. God Bless.
Actually it does help. I should have checked that. Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 07:19:54 AM »

Hi all!
I recently read of this practice of st Seraphim of Sarov myself and was really stroke by it. I tried to pray through it and I find it a fully Orthodox practice. The fifteen meditations, being not distributed in three (now four) categories, should be prayed all together, since the number of 150 Angelical Salutations repeats the rhythm of 150 psalms. I use the Rejoice, o Theotokos as st Seraphim used to (the Hail Mary in its modern full form is more recent and follows the Schism of 1054). I find it incredibly a powerful instrument of prayer and meditation...

Btw, i think the 15th meditation concentrates on the Crowning of the Theotokos; it is through this crowning that Mary, being Queen of Heaven and Mother of all Christians, that she assumes the function to protect us with her red cloak (as she is depicted in a certain typology of icons). I like to think of the 15 meditations as a series of 15 icons to pray in front of. I'm even looking for icons which depict this events so that they could support me in meditating while praying the Rosary: maybe this way I'm not going to travel through imagination, keeping an eye fixed on the Orthodox Faith...
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2009, 09:35:58 AM »

Seraphim Zvezdinsky used those mysteries, St. Seraphim of Sarov, as far as I can tell, did not.
Sorry, you are right. That's what happens when someone gives an answer to something he knows nothing about. I have been using the Rosary lately, and find it extremely fulfilling.
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2009, 10:16:34 AM »

It is not an Orthodox practice. Perhaps St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the rosary but he's the exception to the vast rule of Orthodox Saints and monastics who do NOT pray the rosary but pray the Jesus Prayer with the prayer rope. I certainly do not understand this desire to incorporate Catholic devotional practices into our Orthodox lives. I agree that the rosary is a beautiful devotion but so are many Protestant devotions. Should we also start incorporating these in our Orthodox living? What about beautiful non-Christian practices? And where will it stop? If you insist upon praying the rosary make certain you have your priest's and/or spiritual father's blessing rather than a few folks here who are endorsing it so readily.
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2009, 10:21:26 AM »

It is not an Orthodox practice. Perhaps St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the rosary but he's the exception to the vast rule of Orthodox Saints and monastics who do NOT pray the rosary but pray the Jesus Prayer with the prayer rope. I certainly do not understand this desire to incorporate Catholic devotional practices into our Orthodox lives. I agree that the rosary is a beautiful devotion but so are many Protestant devotions. Should we also start incorporating these in our Orthodox living? What about beautiful non-Christian practices? And where will it stop? If you insist upon praying the rosary make certain you have your priest's and/or spiritual father's blessing rather than a few folks here who are endorsing it so readily.
Its my understanding that the praying of the 150 angelic salutations is a pre-schism practice.
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2009, 10:25:01 AM »

I like the Rosary and we gave our daughter one for her First Confession.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2009, 10:26:22 AM »

I don't know about pre-schism and post-schism practices. I KNOW what my spiritual father told me: do not pray the rosary. He wants me to use the prayer rope and pray the Jesus Prayer. I'm bound to follow his counsel in this. I don't know why it is so pressing with you to ensure that we Orthodox are participating in Catholic devotions? Following the counsel of our spiritual fathers and priests is far more Orthodox than reading up on history and following the advice of forum members on their "take" on what constitutes Orthodox practice.
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2009, 10:29:10 AM »

I like the Rosary and we gave our daughter one for her First Confession.

Why not a prayer rope? Why create confusion? Why not give our children evangelical devotionals, reading materials, cds and so forth? We need to be very clear about what is and what is not Orthodox spiritual practice. Orthodox means right worship... right theology. Why substitute for the prayer rope?Huh
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2009, 10:35:55 AM »

I like the Rosary and we gave our daughter one for her First Confession.

Why not a prayer rope? Why create confusion? Why not give our children evangelical devotionals, reading materials, cds and so forth? We need to be very clear about what is and what is not Orthodox spiritual practice. Orthodox means right worship... right theology. Why substitute for the prayer rope?Huh
Because if the 150 angelic salutations is an acceptable pre-schism Orthodox practice, then it is Orthodox.
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 10:36:51 AM »

I don't know about pre-schism and post-schism practices. I KNOW what my spiritual father told me: do not pray the rosary. He wants me to use the prayer rope and pray the Jesus Prayer. I'm bound to follow his counsel in this. I don't know why it is so pressing with you to ensure that we Orthodox are participating in Catholic devotions? Following the counsel of our spiritual fathers and priests is far more Orthodox than reading up on history and following the advice of forum members on their "take" on what constitutes Orthodox practice.
No one is talking about EOs adopting Catholic practices. The discussion is about whether or not the Rosary is an acceptable ORTHODOX practice.
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2009, 11:14:33 AM »

I don't believe it IS an acceptable EO practice in spite of your attempts to have it accredited. St Seraphim is ONE Orthodox monastics amongst thousands. It seems to me that we're safer staying with what the majority of our Saints practiced and CONTINUE to practice today. As for pre-schism practices... again... I'll leave that to my priest and spiritual father to determine and so far neither has suggested taking up the rosary.
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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2009, 11:27:29 AM »

I don't believe it IS an acceptable EO practice in spite of your attempts to have it accredited. St Seraphim is ONE Orthodox monastics amongst thousands. It seems to me that we're safer staying with what the majority of our Saints practiced and CONTINUE to practice today. As for pre-schism practices... again... I'll leave that to my priest and spiritual father to determine and so far neither has suggested taking up the rosary.
And that's fine. I don't expect all EO's to suddenly start praying the Rosary. It just seems, so far, that it is an EO practice that has fallen into disuse. But I will continue to research the matter.
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2009, 11:37:09 AM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.
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« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2009, 01:33:19 PM »

No one is getting bent out of shape here. That's just your perception. The fact is, my spiritual father and my priest have told me to NOT use it. Are they also getting "bent out of shape"? There is obviously truth in the rosary, just as there is truth in many evangelical practices. As I asked before, why not incorporate some evangelical practices as well? And while we're at it, if truth is the measure of things, then we can also incorporate the devotional practices of some non-Christian faiths since there is varying degrees of truth in them as well. There's truth in the Catholic service of the Stations of the Cross. Shall we now attend these as well?

Here is the answer from my spiritual father (a priest in the GOA): The Rosary is based on the meditation on the so-called mysteries. It's a very western form of prayer. Even if St. Seraphim said the Rosary doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. The saints are not infallible.

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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2009, 01:58:25 PM »

Even if St. Seraphim said the Rosary doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. The saints are not infallible.


True. But St. Seraphim was such an amazing saint with such a close commuion with God. Doesn't that make him a pretty reliable source?
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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2009, 02:15:16 PM »

Not at all. The preponderance of the Church's Saints is where we find reliability. St John Chrysostom (a very, very reliable Saint) believed that the Mother of God had committed sin. Many other Fathers of the Church disagree with him on this issue. At best, the use of the rosary as an Orthodox devotion is questionable.
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« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2009, 02:27:08 PM »

Not at all. The preponderance of the Church's Saints is where we find reliability. St John Chrysostom (a very, very reliable Saint) believed that the Mother of God had committed sin. Many other Fathers of the Church disagree with him on this issue.
Good point.
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« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2009, 03:10:05 PM »

Disclaimer: I was raised (pre-V2) Roman Catholic. I was chrismated in an Orthodox parish in 1984, and despite the fact that I still have my grandparents' rosaries and treasure them, I no longer pray the rosary.

The fact is, my spiritual father and my priest have told me to NOT use it. Are they also getting "bent out of shape"? There is obviously truth in the rosary, just as there is truth in many evangelical practices. As I asked before, why not incorporate some evangelical practices as well? And while we're at it, if truth is the measure of things, then we can also incorporate the devotional practices of some non-Christian faiths since there is varying degrees of truth in them as well. There's truth in the Catholic service of the Stations of the Cross. Shall we now attend these as well?

I am going to start by replying to what you said, but then take off from there. Please don't assume that anything is directed personally at you, and if I offend, I beg forgiveness.

If I still prayed the rosary, and if my father confessor said I should not, I would cease. There's very little point in having a spiritual father if we are not going to take his advice, after all. However, and I say this gently, I feel the rest of your argument is a bit over the top. How can we compare pious devotion to the Theotokos to "the devotional practices of some non-Christian faiths"?

I have prayed alongside men and women outside abortion clinics, as they prayed the rosary. How can one judge the prayers of these devout, Christians who pray for the unborn? Should I, and the other Orthodox with me, including clergy, be reprimanded for praying with Catholics because they prayed the rosary? Or should we rather pray with our Catholic brethren that the lives of the unborn will be saved, and be glad that they are with us, down on their knees, praying the rosary for the lives of the innocent unborn?

If more Roman Catholics prayed the rosary and were as devout as these, the world would be a better place. I have serious trouble trying to judge devotions such as the rosary as "not Orthodox," particularly when the objections are not theological, but relate to whether we should or should not visualize something during prayer.

Certainly, if someone had proposed that perhaps Catholics who had recently become Orthodox might not pray the rosary in order to become more fully Orthodox, I would probably agree. But that's a different question, is it not? And after 25 years of being an Orthodox Christian, I have yet to see a convincing argument that there is any fundamental, theological distinction between Catholic and Orthodox devotion to the Theotokos.

I am not, by any measure, an ecumenist. I do not, however, think much of attempts to distance ourselves in any way possible from Roman Catholics, solely out of antagonism (and I hate to repeat chestnuts, but I never run into this in real life, just online).

I did not become Orthodox as an anti-Catholic statement. I became Orthodox because God showed me where the Church is. I became Orthodox to be a part of the fullness of Christ's church. I see a lot of anti-Catholicism, however, and shake my head and move on. The prayer of St Ephraim is not just a liturgical convention. I know many pious, devout Catholics, some of them in my extended family, and no, they are not Orthodox, but the world needs more Christians like them, and God knows, many of them are better Christians than I. I would never counsel anyone to stop praying the rosary.

Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!


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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2009, 04:01:26 PM »

I am going to start by replying to what you said, but then take off from there. Please don't assume that anything is directed personally at you, and if I offend, I beg forgiveness.

If I still prayed the rosary, and if my father confessor said I should not, I would cease. There's very little point in having a spiritual father if we are not going to take his advice, after all. However, and I say this gently, I feel the rest of your argument is a bit over the top. [bgcolor=#b00000]How can we compare pious devotion to the Theotokos to "the devotional practices of some non-Christian faiths"?[/bgcolor]
I have prayed alongside men and women outside abortion clinics, as they prayed the rosary. How can one judge the prayers of these devout, Christians who pray for the unborn? Should I, and the other Orthodox with me, including clergy, be reprimanded for praying with Catholics because they prayed the rosary? Or should we rather pray with our Catholic brethren that the lives of the unborn will be saved, and be glad that they are with us, down on their knees, praying the rosary for the lives of the innocent unborn?

If more Roman Catholics prayed the rosary and were as devout as these, the world would be a better place. I have serious trouble trying to judge devotions such as the rosary as "not Orthodox," particularly when the objections are not theological, but relate to whether we should or should not visualize something during prayer.

Certainly, if someone had proposed that perhaps Catholics who had recently become Orthodox might not pray the rosary in order to become more fully Orthodox, I would probably agree. But that's a different question, is it not? And after 25 years of being an Orthodox Christian, I have yet to see a convincing argument that there is any fundamental, theological distinction between Catholic and Orthodox devotion to the Theotokos.

I am not, by any measure, an ecumenist. I do not, however, think much of attempts to distance ourselves in any way possible from Roman Catholics, solely out of antagonism (and I hate to repeat chestnuts, but I never run into this in real life, just online).

I did not become Orthodox as an anti-Catholic statement. I became Orthodox because God showed me where the Church is. I became Orthodox to be a part of the fullness of Christ's church. I see a lot of anti-Catholicism, however, and shake my head and move on. The prayer of St Ephraim is not just a liturgical convention. I know many pious, devout Catholics, some of them in my extended family, and no, they are not Orthodox, but the world needs more Christians like them, and God knows, many of them are better Christians than I. I would never counsel anyone to stop praying the rosary.

Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!
Amen. I also would like to know what makes the rosary bad because it is western???
"It's a very western form of prayer." HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2009, 06:12:27 PM »

No one is getting bent out of shape here. That's just your perception. The fact is, my spiritual father and my priest have told me to NOT use it. Are they also getting "bent out of shape"?

Possibly, it is not like like ther aren't Orthodox clergy out there with a bias against the Roman Catholic Church or even Western Rite Orthodox.

There is obviously truth in the rosary, just as there is truth in many evangelical practices. As I asked before, why not incorporate some evangelical practices as well? And while we're at it, if truth is the measure of things, then we can also incorporate the devotional practices of some non-Christian faiths since there is varying degrees of truth in them as well. There's truth in the Catholic service of the Stations of the Cross. Shall we now attend these as well?

The Ecumenical Patriarch wrote the meditations for the Stations of the Cross in the Coliseum one year.  The Russian, Ukrainian, and Carpatho Russian Orthodox have the Passia Service and the Akathist of the Divine Passion, so prayer and meditation on the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ is attested.

Here is the answer from my spiritual father (a priest in the GOA): The Rosary is based on the meditation on the so-called mysteries. It's a very western form of prayer. Even if St. Seraphim said the Rosary doesn't necessarily make it a good thing. The saints are not infallible.

And there comes the anti-Western bias.  Just as in the East a certain number Jesus Prayers can be given as a substitute for the Divine Office the entire concept of the Rosary originates with the replacement of the Divine Office with simpler memorizable prayers.     The illiterate were given 150 Our Fathers to replace the 150 Psalms.  Later Hail Marys were substituted.  St. Eligius (ca. 588-660) pre-schism Western saint testifies to this practice.  So the saying of 150 Our Fathers or Hail Marys is Western, but it is pre-schism and it is Orthodox.  The meditating on the mysteries was a later post-schism addition, but they can be left out.  I would also note on Athos the prayer: "Most Holy Theotokos save us" is often assigned to use on the Prayer Rope, so honoring the Theotokos with the Prayer Rope is not unheard of either.
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2009, 11:28:02 AM »

After thinking about it, I don't believe that St. Seraphim prayed the Rosary. Very often the prayer rope is made out of beads and resembles the Rosary, but is still meant for the Jesus Prayer. Since Catholics tend to see things through Catholic colored glasses, and since the Orthodox often fall into the trap of using Catholic terms for Orthodox things, they may have thought that it was a rosary, when in fact it was a prayer rope. (I have, in fact, seen the prayer rope referred to as a rosary in older Orthodox sources).
 
The rosary is not just the repetition of prayers. It also involves discursive meditation which is somewhat foreign to our approach to the spiritual life. Not that there is anything particularly wrong or bad with the meditation. But what's the point? The sorrowful mysteries, too, tend to be too concentrated on the physical sufferings of Christ, like the stations of the cross, and sees them more as an end in themselves rather as a means to victory. The actual rosary beads could certainly be used for saying the Jesus prayer. There are 50 beads with individual beads interspersed, which could be used for another set of 5 Jesus Prayers or some other short prayer.

In short... there is no need to  say the Catholic rosary. Why spend time digging around in the devotions of other faiths when our own is so rich? To me it is simply the thin edge of the wedge, so to speak. If you are going to make an accomodation for a Catholic rosary, then why not an evangelical devotional since there is certainly truth in evangelical Christianity? And where do you draw the line? Since there is truth in the stations of the cross, why not either go and participate in this catholic service OR acquire the statuary and perform this service in your own home? Again, I mentioned this to my spiritual father and he told me point blank that the practice is highly questionable. I'm following his lead since he is far more knowledgeable on this subject than most of us. Besides, I did not embrace Orthodoxy to acquire the devotional practices of other Christian groups. Orthodoxy is too rich for us to search around in other faiths for add-ons as it were.
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2009, 11:45:18 AM »

After thinking about it, I don't believe that St. Seraphim prayed the Rosary. Very often the prayer rope is made out of beads and resembles the Rosary, but is still meant for the Jesus Prayer. Since Catholics tend to see things through Catholic colored glasses, and since the Orthodox often fall into the trap of using Catholic terms for Orthodox things, they may have thought that it was a rosary, when in fact it was a prayer rope. (I have, in fact, seen the prayer rope referred to as a rosary in older Orthodox sources).
Yet again, YOUR opinion. I respect it, but it doesn't explain why the Rosary is detrimental to living an Orthodox life.
The rosary is not just the repetition of prayers. It also involves discursive meditation which is somewhat foreign to our approach to the spiritual life. Not that there is anything particularly wrong or bad with the meditation. But what's the point? The sorrowful mysteries, too, tend to be too concentrated on the physical sufferings of Christ, like the stations of the cross, and sees them more as an end in themselves rather as a means to victory. The actual rosary beads could certainly be used for saying the Jesus prayer. There are 50 beads with individual beads interspersed, which could be used for another set of 5 Jesus Prayers or some other short prayer.

Discursive- 1 a: moving from topic to topic without order : b: proceeding coherently from topic to topic.
There is an order to the Rosary. When we move coherently from topic to topic, we are meditating on the Mysteries. You just said there was nothing wrong with doing this (meditating on the Mysteries) in your above statement. You still aren't giving me any good reasons why I shouldn't pray the Rosary. In fact, you are confusing me with your logic.
In short... there is no need to  say the Catholic rosary. Why spend time digging around in the devotions of other faiths when our own is so rich? To me it is simply the thin edge of the wedge, so to speak. If you are going to make an accomodation for a Catholic rosary, then why not an evangelical devotional since there is certainly truth in evangelical Christianity? And where do you draw the line? Since there is truth in the stations of the cross, why not either go and participate in this catholic service OR acquire the statuary and perform this service in your own home? Again, I mentioned this to my spiritual father and he told me point blank that the practice is highly questionable. I'm following his lead since he is far more knowledgeable on this subject than most of us. Besides, I did not embrace Orthodoxy to acquire the devotional practices of other Christian groups. Orthodoxy is too rich for us to search around in other faiths for add-ons as it were.
By all means, listen to your spiritual father. But your arguments are not convincing. I am completely willing to see some real evidence, patristic, examination of the Mysteries of the Rosary, etc. So far you have given me nothing but your personal opinion. God Bless.
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2009, 12:39:59 PM »

Again, I mentioned this to my spiritual father and he told me point blank that the practice is highly questionable. I'm following his lead since he is far more knowledgeable on this subject than most of us.

Excuse me, but I would just like to ask:  do you think it's possible that your spiritual father may be giving you advice meant specifically for you?  Is it possible that the Rosary might be detrimental for you, but not necessarily for another Orthodox?

I am sure that the Orthodox do not teach that the advice of one person's spiritual father must be followed by everyone else ... do they?
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2009, 12:44:29 PM »

Again, I mentioned this to my spiritual father and he told me point blank that the practice is highly questionable. I'm following his lead since he is far more knowledgeable on this subject than most of us.

Excuse me, but I would just like to ask:  do you think it's possible that your spiritual father may be giving you advice meant specifically for you?  Is it possible that the Rosary might be detrimental for you, but not necessarily for another Orthodox?

I am sure that the Orthodox do not teach that the advice of one person's spiritual father must be followed by everyone else ... do they?
Very good point theistgal. Well spoken.
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »

Saying the Rosary privately of course is not a problem. In church it's a Western Rite, Western Catholic thing. In addition to Fr Deacon Lance's description of different chaplets I meant there are different ways of saying the Rosary with the 15 traditional mysteries: the actual Dominican one is different from the common one and there is an older version of the common one that begins with the same versicles and responses as the Divine Office (hours) and not the Apostles' Creed, Our Father and three Hail Marys.

Indeed, the Dominican way is different. Back in February, when I was staying at a Dominican priory in Washington, D.C., I prayed the Rosary in choir with the others, and we began with the Domine exaudi oratione meam, not the Creed. Among other things, each side of the choir alternated standing up and sitting down as we went through the Mysteries (they also do that during the Office).
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »

I pray the Sarum Rosary from time to time. It makes a very nice change of pace. It was a form of the Rosary common in England in the later Middle Ages:

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/HortulusRosarium.html
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2009, 04:34:43 PM »

I pray the Sarum Rosary from time to time. It makes a very nice change of pace. It was a form of the Rosary common in England in the later Middle Ages:

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/HortulusRosarium.html
Seriously...I love it. Can you help me on how to pray this particular rosary? God Bless! And where are all those other variations of the rosary? Come on Catholics! I know you are out there. Don't hold out on me. Please post them.
God Bless.
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2009, 04:45:23 PM »

Say an Our Father, the Apostle's Creed and a Hail Mary. Are these to be said on the decade beads of the Rosary from the Hours? And how do you begin this variant on the rosary? It isn't really clear on that point. Thanks, and God Bless.
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« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2009, 05:27:18 PM »

I pray the Sarum Rosary from time to time. It makes a very nice change of pace. It was a form of the Rosary common in England in the later Middle Ages:

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/HortulusRosarium.html
Seriously...I love it. Can you help me on how to pray this particular rosary? God Bless! And where are all those other variations of the rosary? Come on Catholics! I know you are out there. Don't hold out on me. Please post them.
God Bless.
I only am familiar with praying the Dominican form, which is the most similar to what most people pray. However, on the Rosay, many Catholics also pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which is a very, very post schism devotion and probably not at all in keeping with Eastern Orthodox theology. However, most Catholics don't pray it because its only been around since theg 1930s.
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« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2009, 05:37:15 PM »

I only am familiar with praying the Dominican form, which is the most similar to what most people pray. However, on the Rosay, many Catholics also pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which is a very, very post schism devotion and probably not at all in keeping with Eastern Orthodox theology. However, most Catholics don't pray it because its only been around since theg 1930s.
Does anyone know how to begin the rosary of the hours?
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« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2009, 04:00:42 AM »

I only am familiar with praying the Dominican form, which is the most similar to what most people pray. However, on the Rosay, many Catholics also pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which is a very, very post schism devotion and probably not at all in keeping with Eastern Orthodox theology. However, most Catholics don't pray it because its only been around since theg 1930s.
Does anyone know how to begin the rosary of the hours?

Hi,

Well, I don't know of any standard way of beginning this particular form of the Rosary. But you could begin it one of the following ways...

There is the Prayer before the Divine Office, which you could adapt for this Rosary:

Aperi, Dómine, os meum ad benedicéndum nomen sanctum tuum: munda quoque cor meum ab ómnibus vanis, pervérsis et aliénis cogitatiónibus; intelléctum illúmina, afféctum inflámma, ut digne, atténte ac devóte hoc Offícium Rosarium recitáre váleam, et exaudíri mérear ante conspéctum divínæ Majestátis tuæ. Per Christum Dóminum nostrum.  Amen.

Dómine, in unióne illíus divínæ intentiónis, qua ipse in terris laudes Deo persolvísti, hanc tibi Horam Rosarium persólvo.
   

Open, O Lord, my mouth to bless thy holy Name; cleanse also my heart from all vain, evil, and wandering thoughts; enlighten my understanding and emflame my will; that I may worthily recite this Office Rosary with attention and devotion, and deserve to be heard in the presence of Thy divine Majesty.  Through Christ our Lord.  Amen.

O Lord, in union with that divine intention with which Thou didst praise God on Earth, I offer to Thee this hour Rosary.


---

Or you could begin it simply with the opening prayer of one of the Hours (the Dominicans begin their Rosary with this):

V.  Deus,  in adjutórium meum inténde     

R.  Dómine, ad adjuvándum me festína.    

V. Glória Patri, et Fílio, et Spirítui Sancto.

R. Sicut erat in princípio, et nunc, et semper, et in sæcula sæculórum.  Amen.
   

V. O God, come to my assistance.

R. O Lord, make haste to help me.

V. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost.

R. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.  Amen.






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« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2009, 04:00:43 AM »

You could also add on the standard post-Rosary prayers at the end (once again, I've posted both Latin and English versions):

Salve, Regina

Salve, Regina, mater misericordiae; vita, dulcedo et spes nostra, salve. Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te suspiramus gementes et flentes in hac lacrimarum valle. Eia ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende. O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.

V. Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genitrix.
R. Ut digni efficamur promissionibus Christi.

Hail, Holy Queen

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee to we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

--

Deus, cuius Unigenitus per vita, mortem et resurrectionem suam nobis salutis aeternae praemia comparavit: concede, quaesumus; ut, haec mysteria sacratissimo beatae Mariae Virginis Rosario recolentes. et imitemur quod continent, et quod promittunt, assequamur. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.

O God, Whose Only-Begotten Son, by His life, death and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life: grant, we beseech Thee, that by meditating upon these mysteries of the most holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain, and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
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« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2009, 09:08:03 AM »

Thanks a bunch all! If there are any other rosaries that I am unaware of, please feel free to post....hint, hint, Catholics. God Bless.
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« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2009, 08:05:49 PM »

Again, I mentioned this to my spiritual father and he told me point blank that the practice is highly questionable. I'm following his lead since he is far more knowledgeable on this subject than most of us.

Excuse me, but I would just like to ask:  do you think it's possible that your spiritual father may be giving you advice meant specifically for you?  Is it possible that the Rosary might be detrimental for you, but not necessarily for another Orthodox?

I am sure that the Orthodox do not teach that the advice of one person's spiritual father must be followed by everyone else ... do they?

Yes, he "may" be giving advice meant solely for me (no need to get nasty). On the other hand, he wrote in more general terms and said pointedly that this Catholic devotion had dubious merits. It's probably  best that each "Orthodox" Christian seek the advice of his/her own spiritual father rather than the very questionable advice that is given on internet newsgroups.
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« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2009, 10:28:37 PM »

Douglas,

Are you just going to ignore the evidence presented that shows reciting 150 Hail Marys is a pre-schism Western practice?  Or are you and  your spiritual father ones who do not accept Western Rite Orthodoxy?

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2009, 09:31:04 AM »

Douglas,

Are you just going to ignore the evidence presented that shows reciting 150 Hail Marys is a pre-schism Western practice?  Or are you and  your spiritual father ones who do not accept Western Rite Orthodoxy?

Fr. Deacon Lance
Very good point Father Deacon. Douglas, are you going to adress my post above? You still aren't giving any concrete reasons for "Orthodox" christians NOT to pray the Rosary. God Bless.
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« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2009, 11:11:09 AM »

It's probably  best that each "Orthodox" Christian seek the advice of his/her own spiritual father rather than the very questionable advice that is given on internet newsgroups.

Interesting that you put "Orthodox" in quotes like that.  Are you implying that those who don't agree with your spiritual father are not truly Orthodox? 

(And FWIW, I am definitely not Orthodox, either with quotes or without. Wink )

(no need to get nasty)

I most certainly did not intend to get nasty, and I apologize if I said anything that sounded that way.  Embarrassed)
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« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2009, 11:18:34 AM »

Interesting that you put "Orthodox" in quotes like that.  Are you implying that those who don't agree with your spiritual father are not truly Orthodox? 
Yes, I wondered about that as well. Just a tip Douglas. If you want to sway my opinion (and I've said in the past that I am open to it), perhaps you can provide some "real" evidence from an Orthodox perspective. You really damage your own arguments when you act as though you know who the "real" "Orthodox" Christians are. It doesn't convince anyone that you are right. It just makes you look uncharitable. Waiting for that evidence... God Bless.
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« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2009, 11:05:01 PM »

Douglas,

Are you just going to ignore the evidence presented that shows reciting 150 Hail Marys is a pre-schism Western practice?  Or are you and  your spiritual father ones who do not accept Western Rite Orthodoxy?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Not at all. I don't accept it nor does my spiritual father. But if you all insist upon using Catholic devotions, be my guest. I don't find them (i.e. stations of the cross, novenas, rosary) compelling and I rather doubt St Mark of Ephesus would as well.

In fact, this is my last message in this thread (and perhaps in this forum). I'm not really impressed with the strong and persuasive voice of Catholicism here.
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« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2009, 11:07:30 PM »

Interesting that you put "Orthodox" in quotes like that.  Are you implying that those who don't agree with your spiritual father are not truly Orthodox? 
Yes, I wondered about that as well. Just a tip Douglas. If you want to sway my opinion (and I've said in the past that I am open to it), perhaps you can provide some "real" evidence from an Orthodox perspective. You really damage your own arguments when you act as though you know who the "real" "Orthodox" Christians are. It doesn't convince anyone that you are right. It just makes you look uncharitable. Waiting for that evidence... God Bless.

Just a tip to you: I don't need to persuade you (or anyone else for that matter) to do or think anything. I follow the lead of my priest and my spiritual father. What is said here is interesting but certainly not compelling nor persuasive. I'm Orthodox. I've been Orthodox for eighteen years. It was a very costly (and if truth be known, sacrificial) conversion. I'm not about to play around with the devotions of other faiths however beautiful they might present themselves.
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« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2009, 01:00:13 PM »

Just a tip to you: I don't need to persuade you (or anyone else for that matter) to do or think anything. I follow the lead of my priest and my spiritual father. What is said here is interesting but certainly not compelling nor persuasive. I'm Orthodox. I've been Orthodox for eighteen years. It was a very costly (and if truth be known, sacrificial) conversion. I'm not about to play around with the devotions of other faiths however beautiful they might present themselves.
That is what I stated previously. You should listen, and follow the lead of your spiritual Father. As far as you not wanting, or needing to persuade me, what are you doing posting here at all then? It seems that you are trying to persuade me, and others that the rosary is a bad, and destructive practice. Yet, you still will not provide one shred of evidence "WHY" it is so dangerous. That, in my mind, is the real reason you will not post here anymore. I really don't think you have anything else to give in this discussion, other than your own opinion. You mentioned St. Mark of Ephesus. Do you have any quotes from him regarding this subject? If you do please provide them. I really am interested in your thoughts. But just saying that St. Mark would disapprove, without backing it up with any quotations from him, is hardly convincing. Still waiting Douglas. God Bless.
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« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2009, 10:19:27 AM »

For those interested, I have talked with some Western Rite Orthodox, and have learned that many do in fact pray the rosary in the fashion found here: http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary
God Bless!
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« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2009, 02:09:45 AM »

THere is an interesting method of saying the Rosary that was devised by St Louis De Montfort that would clear up anyone with scruples on meditating on the mysteries. It goes like this, say you are praying the second decade of the sorrowful mysteries "The Scourging" You would pray "Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee blessed art thou and blessed is the fruit of thy womb JESUS SCOURGED holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. The same goes for the other Mysteries i.e. the Nativity  Jesus Born in Poverty, the Crucifixcion  Jesus Crucified.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. This is how I pray the Rosary because I have trouble meditating on the mysteries. Smiley
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« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2009, 08:44:50 AM »

THere is an interesting method of saying the Rosary that was devised by St Louis De Montfort that would clear up anyone with scruples on meditating on the mysteries. It goes like this, say you are praying the second decade of the sorrowful mysteries "The Scourging" You would pray "Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee blessed art thou and blessed is the fruit of thy womb JESUS SCOURGED holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. The same goes for the other Mysteries i.e. the Nativity  Jesus Born in Poverty, the Crucifixcion  Jesus Crucified.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. This is how I pray the Rosary because I have trouble meditating on the mysteries. Smiley
That's fantastic. Do you happen to have a link to a page discussing this method of praying the Rosary?
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« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2009, 09:05:12 AM »

Yes, a link to that way of praying the Rosary would be great!
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« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2009, 10:26:36 AM »

I thought I would post this form of the Rosary as well. It is quite interesting, and would seem to be unoffensive for the non-Rosary crowd out there. It is prayed on a Rosary with three sets of nine beads:


The Trisagion Rosary

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall declare Thy praise.
O God, come to my assistance. O Lord, make haste to help me.
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, As it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen.

Recite decade three times for each member of the Trinity.

Holy God! Holy Mighty! Holy Immortal, have mercy upon us.

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Repeat decade nine times

To Thee, O Blessed Trinity, be praise, glory, and thanksgiving, forever! Holy, holy, holy Lord, God Almighty. Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory.
 
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, As it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen.

End of Decade

Closing Prayer

God the Father unbegotten, only-begotten Son, and Holy Spirit, the Comforter; holy and undivided Trinity, with all our hearts we acknowledge Thee: Glory to Thee forever.

Let us bless the Father, and the Son with the Holy Spirit.
Be praised and exalted above all things forever.

Let us pray
Almighty, ever-living God, who has permitted us Thy servants, in our profession of the true faith, to acknowledge the glory of the eternal Trinity, and in the power of that majesty to adore the Unity, grant, that by steadfastness in this same faith, we may be ever guarded against all adversity: through Christ our Lord.

Amen. Set us free, save us, vivify us, O Blessed Trinity!
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« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2009, 07:30:57 PM »

I like the Rosary and we gave our daughter one for her First Confession.

Why not a prayer rope? Why create confusion? Why not give our children evangelical devotionals, reading materials, cds and so forth? We need to be very clear about what is and what is not Orthodox spiritual practice. Orthodox means right worship... right theology. Why substitute for the prayer rope?Huh

My wife prayed the Rosary with her Grandmother as a child and therefore is something she has very fond memories of.  Therefore I think she wanted my daughter to have one as something to keep as well.  It's the same reason there's a Douay-Rheims Bible on our prayer stand.
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« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2009, 07:43:31 PM »

My wife prayed the Rosary with her Grandmother as a child and therefore is something she has very fond memories of.  Therefore I think she wanted my daughter to have one as something to keep as well.  It's the same reason there's a Douay-Rheims Bible on our prayer stand.

Cute. There are plenty of Orthodox Christians from Greece, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, etc who get warm and fuzzy feelings from childhood memories of praying before "naturalistic" icons of the "God the Old Man" Trinity. I can understand this up to a point, as many of these folks had little choice but to venerate such uncanonical images, as they were everywhere. However, where we DO have the means to recognise and choose what is better, sentimentalism is no substitute for orthopraxis.
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« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2009, 07:52:43 PM »

No thanks.

Here's on of my favorite God the Father icons btw

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-QrKB3P1FfA/Seu5IwlgCBI/AAAAAAAAAcA/GXS40cDvRZ8/s1600-h/hpim0999.jpg

It's in the ROCOR parish in center city Philadelphia.  They obviously have a lot to learn about orthopraxis.
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« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2009, 08:09:56 PM »

Sigh. Once again-I have NO interest in the rosary. It's just completely foreign to me-always was, and always will be. If I was so keen to pray the rosary, then I'd have become Roman Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. If RCs want to pray the rosary, I think that's great. It's an integral part of their spirituality and I respect that. But again, I fail to understand why an Orthodox person needs to get involved with this practice.
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« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2009, 08:12:56 PM »

I don't understand why people who have no interest in it are interested in it enough to say they're not interested.

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary.html
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« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2009, 08:15:40 PM »

I don't either. Some things in life are simply mysterious.
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« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »

Like the mysteries of the Rosary!!!   Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2009, 09:29:28 PM »

I'm with you, Rosehip. But then you realize, I'll also be accused of being interested enough to post against something. Evidently, you either agree or you shut up. *sigh*
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« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2009, 09:39:18 PM »

By all means, listen to your spiritual father.

Nicholas,

Taking this to your spiritual father and heeding his direction is probably the best thing you could do.    You have asked the Orthodox about adopting several Roman Catholic means of prayer and self-mortification - the rosary, the chaplet of divine mercy, the cilice, the cord.   People have offered you their thoughts but you seem to want to press these devotions on us.

Well, one of Orthodoxy's major "devotions" and spiritual disciplines is finding and obeying a spiritual director (as it is also for serious Catholics.)  Please consult yours about these things which are fascinating you. 

Let the words of Saint Dorotheus of Gaza be our guide if we wish to set out on the path of spiritual progress:

"I know of no falling away of a monk which did not come from his reliance on
his own sentiments. Nothing is more pitiful, nothing more disastrous than to
be one's own spiritual director."


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« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2009, 09:41:03 PM »

This is basically true:

Quote
AFAIK Western Rite Orthodox at least in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate use the traditional RC Rosary (which has more than one variation) and mysteries (the same in all traditional forms).

So what people are really saying is not "why be interested in the Rosary", they're saying "why be interested in Western Orthodoxy"; or really "Orthodox = Eastern".

The thread was about a perfectly acceptable private devotion, which those who are not interested in, seem to feel interested enough to state their disinterest in.  That is not telling people to shut up by noting this, it is just curious to see.  It's like the idea of somebody praying the Rosary somewhere throws the world of "orthopraxis" off its axis.

I'm not for Puritanism, no matter what form it comes in.
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« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2009, 09:53:45 PM »

Sigh. Once again-I have NO interest in the rosary. It's just completely foreign to me-always was, and always will be. If I was so keen to pray the rosary, then I'd have become Roman Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. If RCs want to pray the rosary, I think that's great. It's an integral part of their spirituality and I respect that. But again, I fail to understand why an Orthodox person needs to get involved with this practice.

The point is reciting 150 Hail Marys is a pre-schism practice that, while primarily Western, is Orthodox.  While meditating on the Mysteries is a post-schism addition, they need not be used or could be replaced with an equivalent Troparion.  A Chotki can be used rather than Rosary beads.  There is nothing un-Orthodox about this rule of prayer.  If an Orthodox, Eastern or Western, wishes to express his/her devotion to the Theotokos in this way there is no need to discourage them on the basis they are adopting a Roman Catholic practice because the practice pre-dates the schism.
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« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2009, 09:58:19 PM »

I guess I really don't see the point of reciting 150 Hail Marys. I've never heard any Orthodox priest saying this must be done. I have chotki, but use it exclusively for the Jesus Prayer.
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« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2009, 10:08:41 PM »

Why is this going on and on and on and on and on when the EO viewpoint has been asked for and then given ad nauseum?  Sounds like some of you have resolved to say it so say it already and move on.  Isn't it about time for the powers that be to step in?  Sheesh.
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« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2009, 10:20:44 PM »

No rules have been broken, it is still fairly on topic, etc.  No reason to step in yet.
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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2009, 12:23:05 AM »

My grandmother prays the rosary before bed every night.  She is almost 90.
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« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2009, 01:13:11 AM »

When i use to walk my Dogs while they were alive, in my neighborhood alley in Chicago..When people moved they actually threw there rosaries and prayer books and other things out..I found quite a lot rosaries over time ..I  kept several of them ,i still have them ,some are sterling silver..
A German neighbor a catholic friend,i gave him quite a few..some i would take to a catholic church and leave them in the pews...

I really don't have anything against them...
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« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2009, 06:41:36 AM »

When i use to walk my Dogs while they were alive, in my neighborhood alley in Chicago..When people moved they actually threw there rosaries and prayer books and other things out..I found quite a lot rosaries over time ..I  kept several of them ,i still have them ,some are sterling silver..
A German neighbor a catholic friend,i gave him quite a few..some i would take to a catholic church and leave them in the pews...

I really don't have anything against them...

I would not encourage any Orthodox parishioners to buy and use a Tibetan rosary, even though they can be very beautiful.  But then I would not encourage anybody to use a prayer rope/rosary which had not been made by another Orthodox Christian.

That said, twenty years ago I had a friend who was a serious Buddhist (lamist) and he converted to Christianity... he brought his much loved mala (rosary) and asked, what to do with it. We stood in front of the icons and prayed and it came to me that it was no more an object of demonic worship than his own lips and mouth which had once prayed to the demons and murmured Tibetan mantras. Just as his lips could be redeemed for Christ, so could his prayer rope. So we placed it in the Altar for 40 days for God to hallow it in His presence and after that he took communion on a Sunday morning and we then blessed the mala and signed it with the Cross of Christ.


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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2009, 09:18:15 AM »

Nicholas,

Taking this to your spiritual father and heeding his direction is probably the best thing you could do.    You have asked the Orthodox about adopting several Roman Catholic means of prayer and self-mortification - the rosary, the chaplet of divine mercy, the cilice, the cord.   People have offered you their thoughts but you seem to want to press these devotions on us.

Well, one of Orthodoxy's major "devotions" and spiritual disciplines is finding and obeying a spiritual director (as it is also for serious Catholics.)  Please consult yours about these things which are fascinating you. 

Let the words of Saint Dorotheus of Gaza be our guide if we wish to set out on the path of spiritual progress:

"I know of no falling away of a monk which did not come from his reliance on
his own sentiments. Nothing is more pitiful, nothing more disastrous than to
be one's own spiritual director."
Very encouraging words, thank you. And yes, I am obedient to my Spiritual Father. I have begun nothing without first consulting with him. I am so humbled, and appreciative that you are all concerned. God Bless You my brothers, and sisters!
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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2009, 09:20:05 AM »

...I fail to understand why an Orthodox person needs to get involved with this practice...
You should probably ask Bishop Basil of the Antiochian Archdiocese maybe?
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2009, 09:24:20 AM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2009, 09:32:44 AM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.
Really excellent. I like it a lot as well. God Bless!
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« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2009, 09:41:33 AM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.
Beautiful shorter version of the Rosary.
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« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2009, 09:46:44 AM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.
Beautiful shorter version of the Rosary.
Indeed.
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« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2009, 10:45:12 AM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.

The five prayers are beautiful.

The "promises" associated with them are dubious, and in fact I thought they had been removed from the Jordanville Prayerbook?
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« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2009, 12:32:23 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.
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« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2009, 12:34:42 PM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.

The five prayers are beautiful.

The "promises" associated with them are dubious, and in fact I thought they had been removed from the Jordanville Prayerbook?
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« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2009, 12:35:08 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.
See reply #92.
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« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2009, 12:44:15 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.
See reply #92.

I was not aware that Bp Basil is an arbitrator of tradition.
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« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2009, 01:05:25 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.
See reply #92.

I was not aware that Bp Basil is an arbitrator of tradition.
Certainly not for me, since I'm not in his diocese.
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« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2009, 01:30:42 PM »

PFN, have you seen the Tale of the Five Prayers by St. Demetrius of Rostov that is in the Old Jordanville Prayer Book:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/5pray.htm

It's one I like a lot.

The five prayers are beautiful.

The "promises" associated with them are dubious, and in fact I thought they had been removed from the Jordanville Prayerbook?

But conceivably countless numbers of Orthodox Christians have recited both; and the sky didn't fall.

I liked your Tibetan story btw.
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« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2009, 01:41:00 PM »


I would not encourage any Orthodox parishioners to buy and use a Tibetan rosary, even though they can be very beautiful.  But then I would not encourage anybody to use a prayer rope/rosary which had not been made by another Orthodox Christian.

That said, twenty years ago I had a friend who was a serious Buddhist (lamist) and he converted to Christianity... he brought his much loved mala (rosary) and asked, what to do with it. We stood in front of the icons and prayed and it came to me that it was no more an object of demonic worship than his own lips and mouth which had once prayed to the demons and murmured Tibetan mantras. Just as his lips could be redeemed for Christ, so could his prayer rope. So we placed it in the Altar for 40 days for God to hallow it in His presence and after that he took communion on a Sunday morning and we then blessed the mala and signed it with the Cross of Christ.



BEAUTIFUL story!
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« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2009, 03:25:09 PM »

I was not aware that Bp Basil is an arbitrator of tradition.
So, the Western Rite is in heresy? And Bishop Basil is allowing it?
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« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2009, 03:29:51 PM »

I was not aware that Bp Basil is an arbitrator of tradition.
So, the Western Rite is in heresy? And Bishop Basil is allowing it?

I didn't say that. But the propriety of the Western Rites is another question altogether.
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« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2009, 03:31:53 PM »

...the propriety of the Western Rites is another question altogether.
Care to elaborate?
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« Reply #108 on: April 24, 2009, 04:07:36 PM »

...the propriety of the Western Rites is another question altogether.
Care to elaborate?

Whether or not it is/was a good idea to attempt to artificially ressurect a dead tradition, and if it was a good idea, if specific attempts have done so in a way that is particularly effective and/or faithful to the living Tradition remains an debated question within most local churches.

It's a broader question which would take this thread way off-topic--but I presume Fr. Anastasios did feel the need to add a caveat since some people seem to assume that if something is currently in Western Rite usage that means all Orthodox will find it acceptable. When, in point of fact, many Orthodox consider certain bishops/synod's decision to allow the Western rite in the same light that other Orthodox consider the decision to use the New Calendar or the decision of the Brezhnev-area MP to allow limited communion to stranded Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2009, 08:32:19 PM »

I was not aware that Bp Basil is an arbitrator of tradition.
So, the Western Rite is in heresy? And Bishop Basil is allowing it?
I actually find this to be a non sequitur response.  I don't imagine Fr. Anastasios meant his statement to imply that Bishop Basil is permitting heresy.  The statement means merely that we are not to take everything Bishop Basil says as though His Grace is the final authority on what constitutes Holy Tradition and what doesn't.
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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2009, 05:16:59 PM »

I don't imagine Fr. Anastasios meant his statement to imply that Bishop Basil is permitting heresy.  The statement means merely that we are not to take everything Bishop Basil says as though His Grace is the final authority on what constitutes Holy Tradition and what doesn't.
I agree completely with you. On the other hand, His Grace is my Bishop. While not the final authority, isn't it OK to listen to him?
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2009, 06:42:15 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.

Father, I agree that it is not part of Greek Orthodox tradition. It would be odd for a Greek Orthodox or any Eastern Orthodox Christian to just randomly start using it for no apparant reason. That being said, I seriously doubt the Venerable Bede, St. Kevin, St. Aiden, St. Olaf, St. Leo, etc. ran around praying with chotkis and singing akathists. Must we throw out all Western devotions with roots in pre-schism Western Christianity because there is no Eastern equivalent? Much like the epiklesis being welded into our Mass, even though Orthodoxy was fine without it before 1054...but that's for another discussion.
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« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2009, 06:45:34 PM »

I don't imagine Fr. Anastasios meant his statement to imply that Bishop Basil is permitting heresy.  The statement means merely that we are not to take everything Bishop Basil says as though His Grace is the final authority on what constitutes Holy Tradition and what doesn't.
I agree completely with you. On the other hand, His Grace is my Bishop. While not the final authority, isn't it OK to listen to him?
Of course it's OK to listen to your bishop. Smiley  Just don't think--and I don't think you do Wink--that we're all beholden to listen to him and submit to his authority, even if we're not in his diocese.
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« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2009, 06:56:32 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.

Father, I agree that it is not part of Greek Orthodox tradition. It would be odd for a Greek Orthodox or any Eastern Orthodox Christian to just randomly start using it for no apparant reason. That being said, I seriously doubt the Venerable Bede, St. Kevin, St. Aiden, St. Olaf, St. Leo, etc. ran around praying with chotkis and singing akathists. Must we throw out all Western devotions with roots in pre-schism Western Christianity because there is no Eastern equivalent? Much like the epiklesis being welded into our Mass, even though Orthodoxy was fine without it before 1054...but that's for another discussion.

I didn't know we have "mass"-I thought that was a Catholic thing and that we call our service the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2009, 06:59:45 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.

Father, I agree that it is not part of Greek Orthodox tradition. It would be odd for a Greek Orthodox or any Eastern Orthodox Christian to just randomly start using it for no apparant reason. That being said, I seriously doubt the Venerable Bede, St. Kevin, St. Aiden, St. Olaf, St. Leo, etc. ran around praying with chotkis and singing akathists. Must we throw out all Western devotions with roots in pre-schism Western Christianity because there is no Eastern equivalent? Much like the epiklesis being welded into our Mass, even though Orthodoxy was fine without it before 1054...but that's for another discussion.

I didn't know we have "mass"-I thought that was a Catholic thing and that we call our service the Divine Liturgy.
Don't western rite Orthodox have mass?
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« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2009, 07:17:13 PM »

I think that some are a little too bent out of shape about the rosary. I pray 15 decades everyday. I also pray the Jesus Prayer on my prayer rope everyday. Just because something is Catholic doesn't mean that it is garbage. Take that level of logic to the extreme, and see what I mean. I don't have to elaborate on that issue for obvious reasons. For those that disagree, find the info on the rosaries, particularly the mysteries, and show me what the problem is. I am open to hearing what you have to say regarding this subject. But what I have heard so far is not convincing. Just because it isn't THE Prayer rope, isn't a justifiable objection. God Bless.

Actually that's a major point. It's not part of our tradition. So to start using it, means you are picking and choosing your devotions. You are thus an arbitrator of tradition.  It may not be "garbage" but it is also not something that contributed to the deification of the Orthodox saints.

Father, I agree that it is not part of Greek Orthodox tradition. It would be odd for a Greek Orthodox or any Eastern Orthodox Christian to just randomly start using it for no apparant reason. That being said, I seriously doubt the Venerable Bede, St. Kevin, St. Aiden, St. Olaf, St. Leo, etc. ran around praying with chotkis and singing akathists. Must we throw out all Western devotions with roots in pre-schism Western Christianity because there is no Eastern equivalent? Much like the epiklesis being welded into our Mass, even though Orthodoxy was fine without it before 1054...but that's for another discussion.

I didn't know we have "mass"-I thought that was a Catholic thing and that we call our service the Divine Liturgy.
Don't western rite Orthodox have mass?

The Orthodox Missal says "The Divine Liturgy.....commonly called the Mass"  It ends "Ite missa est."
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« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2009, 07:36:21 PM »

Don't western rite Orthodox have mass?

We most certainly do.  Smiley
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« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2009, 07:40:22 PM »

I'm so sorry!! Embarrassed You are Western-rite and maybe you call it the mass, then? I really don't know very much about Western-rite Orthodox and have never been to their services. I haven't heard regular Orthodox people calling the Liturgy the "mass" though, even if it calls it that in your book, Ialmisry. My little prayer book is different in that it calls it the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2009, 08:05:43 PM »

I'm so sorry!! Embarrassed You are Western-rite and maybe you call it the mass, then? I really don't know very much about Western-rite Orthodox and have never been to their services. I haven't heard regular Orthodox people calling the Liturgy the "mass" though, even if it calls it that in your book, Ialmisry. My little prayer book is different in that it calls it the Divine Liturgy.

LOL.  I'm not WRO.  Just a firm supporter.

This issue doesn't come up, for instance, in Arabic: both "mass" and "liturgy" is "quddaas."  I seem to remember that the liturgical books in Latin call it "Liturgia"
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« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2009, 08:14:40 PM »

Ialmisry, I KNOW you are not western-rite Orthodox (going by the information by your avatar-although, these days, I no longer know if I can believe what people say about what they are on OC.net... Cheesy). I was referring to Reader KevinAndrew. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that.
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« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2009, 09:54:18 AM »

Of course it's OK to listen to your bishop. Smiley  Just don't think--and I don't think you do Wink--that we're all beholden to listen to him and submit to his authority, even if we're not in his diocese.
Absolutely. God Bless You!
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« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2009, 09:55:25 AM »

Father, I agree that it is not part of Greek Orthodox tradition. It would be odd for a Greek Orthodox or any Eastern Orthodox Christian to just randomly start using it for no apparant reason. That being said, I seriously doubt the Venerable Bede, St. Kevin, St. Aiden, St. Olaf, St. Leo, etc. ran around praying with chotkis and singing akathists. Must we throw out all Western devotions with roots in pre-schism Western Christianity because there is no Eastern equivalent? Much like the epiklesis being welded into our Mass, even though Orthodoxy was fine without it before 1054...but that's for another discussion.
Excellent points. I agree.
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« Reply #122 on: May 19, 2010, 05:24:21 PM »

1 Thessalonians 5:21 test everything and hold on to what is good

Hi everbody Smiley
In the matter of fact, it doesn't matter it is latin or eastern Tradition, we are not a slave of particular devotion.
If we really know the Christ it's not a problem to go against the tide and use outwardly from strange piety.
I encourage You to pray the Rosary Smiley
God Bless all of You
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