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Thomas Aquinas?
« on: April 02, 2009, 12:32:47 PM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 04:26:02 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and the taket the silence as a resounding "no".  ;)
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 04:30:37 PM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?

Aquinas!  The "Saint" who recommends in the Summa Theologica that all the Orthodox be killed (along with all other heretics, so it wasn't as if he hated us especially.)



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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 04:33:24 PM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?

Aquinas!  The "Saint" who recommends in the Summa Theologica that all the Orthodox be killed (along with all other heretics, so it wasn't as if he hated us especially.)



Oh geesh. He said that heretics were justly deserving of the death penalty, but I harldy think he wanted us to invade the East and exterminate every Eastern Orthodox Christian. Furthermore, he did not say that we should kill every heretic or that it was prudent to do so. Finally, he never specificially singles out the Eastern Orthodox for the death penalty. I'm looking for serious answers here.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 04:38:42 PM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?

Aquinas!  The "Saint" who recommends in the Summa Theologica that all the Orthodox be killed (along with all other heretics, so it wasn't as if he hated us especially.)



I think that this assessment is quite reasonable:
"As can be seen by reading the article of Michael Novak, Aquinas' view in this matter is one of the more difficult parts of dealing with Thomism, in general. Needless to say, the attitudes of Aquinas were prevalent in his time. This view must be taken in context with the more liberal attitude shown by Aquinas in eschewing the forced baptism of the children of heretics, which was recommended by among others, John Duns Scotus. This lax attitude is hardly congruent with a recommendation for execution of heretics. In fact, the heretics Aquinas was referring to were those baptized Catholics who held positions of authority within the Church, and nonetheless persisted in teaching heretical views. It is doubtful that Aquinas was advising execution of heretics or Jews with this particular quotation. It remains one of those passages which must be taken in context of the the total message of Thomism."
This a quote from Wiki but I think that it was well stated.
I would doubt Thomas wanted every heretic dead. I think its more likely that Thomas' arguement is aimed at impenitent heretics within the Catholic Church because they are more spiritually dangerous.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:43:39 PM by Papist »
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 04:43:28 PM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?

Aquinas!  The "Saint" who recommends in the Summa Theologica that all the Orthodox be killed (along with all other heretics, so it wasn't as if he hated us especially.)



The problem with the way you worded this is that some will think that St. Thomas specifically advocated the extermination of Eastern Orthodox Christians, which is a gross falsehood. I certainly hope that you were not suggesting such. If you did, I will strain charity to again assume you did so out of ignorance, not because of some ill will towards the Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:44:11 PM by Papist »
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 04:56:24 PM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?

Aquinas!  The "Saint" who recommends in the Summa Theologica that all the Orthodox be killed (along with all other heretics, so it wasn't as if he hated us especially.)



Oh geesh. He said that heretics were justly deserving of the death penalty, but I harldy think he wanted us to invade the East and exterminate every Eastern Orthodox Christian. Furthermore, he did not say that we should kill every heretic or that it was prudent to do so. Finally, he never specificially singles out the Eastern Orthodox for the death penalty. I'm looking for serious answers here.

It just blows my mind that your "Saints" can lobby for murder and Catholics nod their heads and agree with it.     You don't even see it as something serious.  This is light years away from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I pray that in His great compassion God has not sent Aquinas to hell for the sin of providing a theological basis for the murder of non-Catholics.   How many Popes and Catholic monarchs took courage from his words and murdered their subjects in gruesome ways. 


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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 05:02:46 PM »
To keep this on topic, personally, I have always loved the Prima Pars of the Summa Theologica.    It will always remind me of a religious studies class I took, where we had to discuss and debate the 5 ways to prove the existence of God.  Talk about heated and cyclical discussions.   :laugh:
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 08:17:35 PM »
There are some things that are useful from St. Thomas Aquinas.  I haven't read much of his Summa to judge though, but his methodology is appreciative.

Nonetheless, one wonders whether he believed in theosis (which may be the case, but who knows).  I also received an explanatory passage from a Catholic explaining infinite sin in Aquinas' words.  I failed to see the phrase and idea acceptable.  Nevertheless, as in any great writer, we should always take the positive, right?  Aquinas imo has a lot to offer, especially if someone is to study the thought of Western Christianity.  HE Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has given similar views.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 08:37:35 PM »
In 7 years of seminary we spent a total of 10 minutes on Aquinas.  Just thought i'd share that little tid-bit   ;D ;)
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 08:53:17 PM »
For Papist and Fr. Ambrose:  Why don't y'all just quote the passages you're thinking of, and interpretations, so we can raise this dialogue above the level of "yes he did" and "oh no he didn't!"
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 09:17:46 PM »
For Papist and Fr. Ambrose:  Why don't y'all just quote the passages you're thinking of, and interpretations, so we can raise this dialogue above the level of "yes he did" and "oh no he didn't!"

Thomas Aquinas' teaching in the Summa on what should be done with heretics ...

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.


Aquinas: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2


On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.

Aquinas: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 2/2






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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 10:02:19 PM »
A link to provide greater context:  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 10:21:07 PM »
A link to provide greater context:  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3

In what way do you see it as providing greater context?.    It is merely dealing with a few peripheral objections.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 10:21:50 PM »
[snaps fingers three times in a Z-like direction]oh no he di'n't[/puts hands on waist]
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 10:22:47 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 10:29:44 PM »
A link to provide greater context:  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3

In what way do you see it as providing greater context?.    It is merely dealing with a few peripheral objections.

The objections, answers, replies are all part of the article, and should be provided.  In addition, you cropped out "For Jerome commenting on Galatians 5:9, 'A little leaven,' says: 'Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.'", Father.  Plus, it brings light to Thomas Aquinas' other beliefs/opinions by linking to the entire Question 11 from the Secunda Secundae.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 10:38:19 PM »
I though this was an interesting quote from Orthodoxwiki on Thomas Aquinas, under his biography:

Quote
Aquinas had a mystical experience while celebrating Mass on December 6, 1273, after which he stopped writing, leaving his great work, the Summa Theologiae, unfinished. When asked why he had stopped writing, Aquinas replied, "I cannot go on...All that I have written seems to me like so much straw compared to what I have seen and what has been revealed to me." He died on March 7, 1274.

I'm not trying to twist this to make it seem like he renounced everything he wrote, but it appears as if he was experiencing Theosis.

Indeed, I've heard of that as well.  Amazing is it how writing seems so much seemed all in vain in comparison with a mystical experience.

In addressing the whole killing heretics part, while I may disagree with Aquinas, I must say the Christian emperors did no differently, whether they were after real heretics or Orthodox people who were deemed as heretics in their eyes.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 11:48:30 PM »
A link to provide greater context:  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3

In what way do you see it as providing greater context?.    It is merely dealing with a few peripheral objections.

The objections, answers, replies are all part of the article, and should be provided. 

I really do not see that the peripheral material modifies in any way what I provided.  In fact, it doesn't. 

Quote
In addition, you cropped out "For Jerome commenting on Galatians 5:9, 'A little leaven,' says: 'Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.'"

I did not crop it.  It simply is not included with the quotes already exisiting on my computer from previous discussions on the topic.  And once again the additional quote from Jerome provides nothing which modifies or amplifies Aquinas' teaching.  It is simply not necessary to provide it to get the full understanding of Aquinas.

The technique when quoting is to provide the miminum which will give an accurate and undistorted apprehension of the author's meaning, and that is what I have done. 

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 12:31:14 AM »
Discussion about Theosis, Roman Catholics (and other Christians), etc. can be found here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20543.0.html

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 02:04:27 AM »
Just curious, are their any Eastern Orthodox Christians here who appreciate the works of St. Thomas Aquinas? What do you like about him?

Aquinas!  The "Saint" who recommends in the Summa Theologica that all the Orthodox be killed (along with all other heretics, so it wasn't as if he hated us especially.)



Oh geesh. He said that heretics were justly deserving of the death penalty, but I harldy think he wanted us to invade the East and exterminate every Eastern Orthodox Christian. Furthermore, he did not say that we should kill every heretic or that it was prudent to do so. Finally, he never specificially singles out the Eastern Orthodox for the death penalty. I'm looking for serious answers here.

It just blows my mind that your "Saints" can lobby for murder and Catholics nod their heads and agree with it.     You don't even see it as something serious.  This is light years away from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I pray that in His great compassion God has not sent Aquinas to hell for the sin of providing a theological basis for the murder of non-Catholics.   How many Popes and Catholic monarchs took courage from his words and murdered their subjects in gruesome ways. 


First of all, the death penalty is not murder. Its the death penalty. Second, how is venerating some one who advocates the death penalty any worse than venerating Moses, through whom we recieve the mosaic law which requires the death penalty for disobedient children? Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"? My point is not to attack the EOs but to remind you Father Ambrose, that you have your saints that are not entirely "peaceful".
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2009, 02:08:43 AM »
There are some things that are useful from St. Thomas Aquinas.  I haven't read much of his Summa to judge though, but his methodology is appreciative.

Nonetheless, one wonders whether he believed in theosis (which may be the case, but who knows).  I also received an explanatory passage from a Catholic explaining infinite sin in Aquinas' words.  I failed to see the phrase and idea acceptable.  Nevertheless, as in any great writer, we should always take the positive, right?  Aquinas imo has a lot to offer, especially if someone is to study the thought of Western Christianity.  HE Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has given similar views.
There is actually a book out concerning the comonalities of Sts. Thomas Aquinas and Gregory Palamas, especially concering their ideas about theosis/sanctification. http://books.google.com/books?id=_k1b11F4bYsC&dq=The+Ground+of+Union+Palamas+Aquinas&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=znYz6IGDT9&sig=h4kt62JG47osKHokFcGpmCGFyzk&hl=en&ei=LfnWSZ7-C4GitgP22b2sCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2009, 02:12:35 AM »
... than venerating Moses, through whom we recieve the mosaic law which requires the death penalty for disobedient children?

Mosaic Law?  The shadow of the law has passed now that grace has come, for as the Bush in flames was not consumed, so as a Virgin you bore a Child and remained a Virgin; instead of a pillar of fire the Sun of righteousness has dawned, instead of Moses Christ, the salvation of our souls. (Doxastikon, Vespers for Saturday, tone 2)
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2009, 02:15:09 AM »
It just blows my mind that your "Saints" can lobby for murder and Catholics nod their heads and agree with it.     You don't even see it as something serious.  This is light years away from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I pray that in His great compassion God has not sent Aquinas to hell for the sin of providing a theological basis for the murder of non-Catholics.   How many Popes and Catholic monarchs took courage from his words and murdered their subjects in gruesome ways. 


First of all, the death penalty is not murder. Its the death penalty. Second, how is venerating some one who advocates the death penalty any worse than venerating Moses, through whom we recieve the mosaic law which requires the death penalty for disobedient children? Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"? My point is not to attack the EOs but to remind you Father Ambrose, that you have your saints that are not entirely "peaceful".

The vast difference between the Catholics and the Orthodox is that while many of us have certainly failed the Gospel of Jesus Christ we have never actually distorted the Gospel by incorporating the teaching of the legal murder of religious dissidents into our theology as Aquinas and the Popes did.   

(As for Constantine, I believe he was baptized on his death bed and so he sprang into eternity like a newborn babe with the waters of cleansing baptism still wet upon him.  Not a sin on his soul.)

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2009, 02:16:04 AM »
... than venerating Moses, through whom we recieve the mosaic law which requires the death penalty for disobedient children?

Mosaic Law?  The shadow of the law has passed now that grace has come, for as the Bush in flames was not consumed, so as a Virgin you bore a Child and remained a Virgin; instead of a pillar of fire the Sun of righteousness has dawned, instead of Moses Christ, the salvation of our souls. (Doxastikon, Vespers for Saturday, tone 2)

That does not change the fact that Moses did avocate for the death penalty in a way we might consider unjust today. Does that mean he is unworthy of veneration? No way!
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2009, 02:17:36 AM »
There are some things that are useful from St. Thomas Aquinas.  I haven't read much of his Summa to judge though, but his methodology is appreciative.

Nonetheless, one wonders whether he believed in theosis (which may be the case, but who knows).  I also received an explanatory passage from a Catholic explaining infinite sin in Aquinas' words.  I failed to see the phrase and idea acceptable.  Nevertheless, as in any great writer, we should always take the positive, right?  Aquinas imo has a lot to offer, especially if someone is to study the thought of Western Christianity.  HE Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has given similar views.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is my understanding that Aquinas did believe in Theosis because he believed in Sanctifying Grace, which is God's own life in us.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2009, 02:18:34 AM »
In 7 years of seminary we spent a total of 10 minutes on Aquinas.  Just thought i'd share that little tid-bit   ;D ;)
Fair enough. I don't think our seminarians spend much time on Palamas, although I wish they would.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2009, 02:22:55 AM »
No Papist, Moses is indeed and rightly venerated. The Orthodox Church reads the book of Exodus almost in its entirety throughout Great Lent. My point is that Christians, through the fulfilment and completion of the Law through Jesus Christ, are no longer beholden to it as the OT Jews were. Baptism has superseded circumcision. There is no Jew nor Greek when it comes to eligibility to be part of the Church. At any rate, it was God who gave the Law to Moses, Moses didn't come up with it himself.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2009, 02:25:10 AM »
No Papist, Moses is indeed and rightly venerated. The Orthodox Church reads the book of Exodus almost in its entirety throughout Great Lent. My point is that Christians, through the fulfilment and completion of the Law through Jesus Christ, are no longer beholden to it as the OT Jews were. Baptism has superseded circumcision. There is no Jew nor Greek when it comes to eligibility to be part of the Church. At any rate, it was God who gave the Law to Moses, Moses didn't come up with it himself.
I agree. God gave it to him. But he promoted it. Which means he promoted the death penalty. I don't think that makes him a murderer any more than it makes St. Thomas Aquinas a murder.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2009, 02:26:19 AM »
... than venerating Moses, through whom we recieve the mosaic law which requires the death penalty for disobedient children?

Mosaic Law?  The shadow of the law has passed now that grace has come, for as the Bush in flames was not consumed, so as a Virgin you bore a Child and remained a Virgin; instead of a pillar of fire the Sun of righteousness has dawned, instead of Moses Christ, the salvation of our souls. (Doxastikon, Vespers for Saturday, tone 2)

That does not change the fact that Moses did avocate for the death penalty in a way we might consider unjust today. Does that mean he is unworthy of veneration? No way!

This seems a fallacious argument, confusing the old Law and the teachings of the New Testament.  There is much of the Old Testament which was done away with by the new dispensation of Christ.  Killing disobedient children, stoning people to death, making men sleep with their sisters-in-law if their brother died without a child, etc., etc.

To appeal to the Old Testament to justify something in the Christian Church which contradicts the teaching of Christ proceeds from a mindset I find hard to understand.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2009, 02:28:08 AM »
Quote
I agree. God gave it to him. But he promoted it. Which means he promoted the death penalty. I don't think that makes him a murderer any more than it makes St. Thomas Aquinas a murder.
You miss an important detail, Papist. Moses was of the OT and beholden to the Law, Aquinas lived after the shadow of the Law had passed.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 02:28:43 AM by LBK »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2009, 02:31:04 AM »
I agree. God gave it to him. But he promoted it. Which means he promoted the death penalty. I don't think that makes him a murderer any more than it makes St. Thomas Aquinas a murder.

If it was right for the Popes and the Catholic monarchs to kill religious dissidents, and since it is theologically justified by Aquinas and many others, why have you stopped doing it?


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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2009, 02:39:23 AM »
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5: 43-48
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2009, 02:52:36 AM »
Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"?

Wasn't he a Catholic?  Under the authority of the Roman Pontiff?

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2009, 02:55:38 AM »
Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"?

Wasn't he a Catholic?  Under the authority of the Roman Pontiff?
He was baptized on his deathbead by an Arian heretic. I hardly think that makes him a Catholic.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2009, 04:13:21 AM »
Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"?

Wasn't he a Catholic?  Under the authority of the Roman Pontiff?
He was baptized on his deathbead by an Arian heretic. I hardly think that makes him a Catholic.

Hmmm.... he is certainly a Roman Catholic Saint

(http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731:

Also a Ukrainian Catholic Saint

A Greek Catholic Saint

A Russian Catholic Saint.....


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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2009, 02:20:10 PM »
Dear Father,

As much as St. Constantine is a saint, it is very well known his life isn't that quite exemplary.  As an emperor he killed most of his family for fear of betrayal.  He also was Arian for most of his lifetime and asked for the death of St. Athanasius.  This means that emperors did have the intent of murdering heretics, even if they thought them as heretics.  Many other emperors after him would banish and sometimes beat up heretics to a pulp.  Many emperors after him were also involved in eradicating pagans.

I think we need to wary about this and think about what St. Constantine "repented" from.  It has been told he apologized for running after the pillar of Orthodoxy St. Athanasius, but has he repented for sending "heretics" to their prisons, banishments, and beatings?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 02:20:28 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2009, 04:27:05 PM »
Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"?

Wasn't he a Catholic?  Under the authority of the Roman Pontiff?
He was baptized on his deathbead by an Arian heretic. I hardly think that makes him a Catholic.

Hmmm.... he is certainly a Roman Catholic Saint

(http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731:

Also a Ukrainian Catholic Saint

A Greek Catholic Saint

A Russian Catholic Saint.....


Yawn. The article says that he was venerated in the East. That means a local veneration. He certainly never went through the official cannonization process for the Universal Church. That does not automatically make him a non-saint but it leaves the question open. Since he was an Arian though, we can logically conclude that he was not a Catholic. Thus, he is not a Catholic saint.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2009, 04:31:52 PM »
I agree. God gave it to him. But he promoted it. Which means he promoted the death penalty. I don't think that makes him a murderer any more than it makes St. Thomas Aquinas a murder.

If it was right for the Popes and the Catholic monarchs to kill religious dissidents, and since it is theologically justified by Aquinas and many others, why have you stopped doing it?


I believe that it was probably only dissidents that put the faith of others in jeopardy. To endanger one's soul is a graver crime than murder and thus mertiting execution. If this was a Catholic Country I would have no problem with the use of the death penalty for heresiarchs like Arius or Luther if we could not silence them in any other way. Why such a practice is not continued today? There are very few officially Catholic Countries around. For those that are, although the death penalty would just for heresiarchs who cannot be silenced, justice does not demand it and, in our modern society, prudence might direct us to do otherwise.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2009, 04:34:04 PM »
Quote
I agree. God gave it to him. But he promoted it. Which means he promoted the death penalty. I don't think that makes him a murderer any more than it makes St. Thomas Aquinas a murder.
You miss an important detail, Papist. Moses was of the OT and beholden to the Law, Aquinas lived after the shadow of the Law had passed.
No understand what your point is. However, it is irrelevant to the discussion. The question that I have formulated is the following: Does the support of the death penalty for crimes that many modern people consider to be lesser crimes, disqualify one from sainthood?
It did not disqualify Moses.
It did not disqualify Constantine (at least from the Eastern Orthodox perspective)
So why should it disqualify St. Thomas Aquinas?
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2009, 05:03:57 PM »
Dear Father,

As much as St. Constantine is a saint, it is very well known his life isn't that quite exemplary.  As an emperor he killed most of his family for fear of betrayal.  He also was Arian for most of his lifetime and asked for the death of St. Athanasius.  This means that emperors did have the intent of murdering heretics, even if they thought them as heretics.  Many other emperors after him would banish and sometimes beat up heretics to a pulp.  Many emperors after him were also involved in eradicating pagans.

I think we need to wary about this and think about what St. Constantine "repented" from.  It has been told he apologized for running after the pillar of Orthodoxy St. Athanasius, but has he repented for sending "heretics" to their prisons, banishments, and beatings?

Well, he was baptized and became a Saint of the Roman Catholic Church on his deathbed, so presumably the Roman Catholic Church has made a decision and is satisfied that his repentance and baptism was genuine.

They are quite thorough about these things at the Vatican.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 05:05:02 PM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2009, 05:07:12 PM »
Hmmm.... he is certainly a Roman Catholic Saint

(http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731:

Also a Ukrainian Catholic Saint

A Greek Catholic Saint

A Russian Catholic Saint.....


Yawn. The article says that he was venerated in the East. That means a local veneration. He certainly never went through the official cannonization process for the Universal Church. That does not automatically make him a non-saint but it leaves the question open. Since he was an Arian though, we can logically conclude that he was not a Catholic. Thus, he is not a Catholic saint.

Big yawn.  Search the Catholic websites.  Search CAF.  He is a Catholic Saint in the eyes of the Vatican.   It's hardly likely that the Vatican would have included an Arian among the Saints?!

« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 05:09:33 PM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2009, 05:32:16 PM »

Yawn. The article says that he was venerated in the East. That means a local veneration. He certainly never went through the official cannonization process for the Universal Church. That does not automatically make him a non-saint but it leaves the question open. Since he was an Arian though, we can logically conclude that he was not a Catholic. Thus, he is not a Catholic saint.

Every single pre-schism saint never went through an official canonization process for the Universal Church, so your argument there is really no argument.

If the Eastern Catholic churches are allowed to venerate St. Constantine, then he is, by default, a "Catholic" saint.  Until you can prove that Rome has outright said, "Constantine was an Arian heretic and is therefore not allowed to be venerated by any eccelsial community in union with the Holy See of Rome" you have nothing but your own personal opinion.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2009, 05:51:32 PM »
It just blows my mind that your "Saints" can lobby for murder and Catholics nod their heads and agree with it.     

 ::) This from a person whose own Church venerates Constantine and Justinian as saints?


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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2009, 05:51:32 PM »
Or how is it any worse the the EO veneration of Constantine "equal to the apostles"?

Wasn't he a Catholic?  Under the authority of the Roman Pontiff?
He was baptized on his deathbead by an Arian heretic. I hardly think that makes him a Catholic.

There is also the question of the sincerity of his baptism. Was he forgiven the killings of numerous people (his own family included) and worship of false gods if he did not think he did anything wrong, or if he purposely waited until the last moment of his life for baptism to "absolve" himself of all of it?

He is not on our calendar. Neither is Justinian---another one who liked to execute Christians who disagreed with him.


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Re: Thomas Aquinas?
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2009, 05:58:44 PM »
He is not on our calendar.

Of course he is on your Calendar.  Do a web search,  You'll find Catholic churches in the States dedicated to him.   Don't tell me you're venerating Arian heretics!  ;D