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Author Topic: Strange things in MP's Parishes and Ialmisry's thoughts on Chrism and Innovation  (Read 15749 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2009, 12:10:58 PM »

It would fit in with the fact that the MP officially allowed communion for Roman Catholics starting around 1968 and ending at a time I am not sure about, but I believe in the 1970's or 1980's.  I am not saying it is a slam dunk connection, but it seems like it could be part of a larger trend.

Christ is Risen!

Dear Father Anastasios,

My recollection is the Russian Synod made a decision to offer communion to Catholics inside the Soviet Union who had been cut off from any ministrations of their own Church for decades.   The thought keeps niggling at my mind that this was in fact further restricted to Russian Greek Catholics and to Old Believers.


If you thought this would assuage my concerns, it doesn't.
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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2009, 12:14:12 PM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

Christ is Risen!

Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

That is wishful thinking. Once it was set in motion in 2003, the momentum was too hard to stop.

Quote
Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting. It's speaking out of both sides of its mouth. Given the large size of the MP, it's understandable that there would be bishops with differing opinions. But you are clearly ignoring what you don't like, and using what you do like to try and prove your case. Selective reading of the evidence.
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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2009, 12:57:58 PM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

Christ is Risen!

Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

That is wishful thinking. Once it was set in motion in 2003, the momentum was too hard to stop.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?

Quote
Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting.

You mean this: http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/assembly/porto-alegre-2006/1-statements-documents-adopted/christian-unity-and-message-to-the-churches/called-to-be-the-one-church-as-adopted.html

Could you point to one single sentence in the document that is unacceptable to your understanding of Orthodoxy?

It's speaking out of both sides of its mouth.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2009, 03:12:13 PM »

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

If the ROCOR were Orthodox, the GOC wouldn't have needed to break communion with it. 
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2009, 08:46:23 PM »

If the ROCOR were Orthodox, the GOC wouldn't have needed to break communion with it. 

As I have written elsewhere on the forum, the GOA was in full communion with the Russian Church Abroad until 1968 - a period of 50 years since the time of formation of the Russian Church Abroad.  In fact for the early post-Revolution years we were headquartered in Constantinople with the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch.   

After 1968 (for reasons which the Greeks have never been made public) they slowly ceased concelebration but communion continued,  with priests from both sides communing each others laity, hearing their Confessions, etc.

If breaking communion is a sign that one Church or the other has ceased to be Orthodox, who then had ceased to be Orthodox at the time of the Constantinople-Moscow break in communion?

Here is the 1968 GOA Yearbook showing that they were in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until that year.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/greekyearbook1968.jpg
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« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2009, 03:14:22 AM »

My apologies to those whose posts disappeared from this thread, but I couldn't remove the libelous accusations made here without also removing all those posts that quoted and/or replied to said accusations. Sad  I hope you'll understand.
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« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2009, 07:25:03 AM »

If the ROCOR were Orthodox, the GOC wouldn't have needed to break communion with it.  

As I have written elsewhere on the forum, the GOA was in full communion with the Russian Church Abroad until 1968 - a period of 50 years since the time of formation of the Russian Church Abroad.  In fact for the early post-Revolution years we were headquartered in Constantinople with the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  

After 1968 (for reasons which the Greeks have never been made public) they slowly ceased concelebration but communion continued,  with priests from both sides communing each others laity, hearing their Confessions, etc.

If breaking communion is a sign that one Church or the other has ceased to be Orthodox, who then had ceased to be Orthodox at the time of the Constantinople-Moscow break in communion?

Here is the 1968 GOA Yearbook showing that they were in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until that year.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/greekyearbook1968.jpg

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).
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« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2009, 08:19:48 AM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise.  The Greek Orthodox Church-Synod in Resistance (Metropolitan Cyprianos of Fili) broke communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad in December 2005.  I've located their letter to ROCA announcing this decision.
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5847

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« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2009, 12:40:36 PM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

Christ is Risen!

Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

That is wishful thinking. Once it was set in motion in 2003, the momentum was too hard to stop.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?

Quote
Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting.

You mean this: http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/assembly/porto-alegre-2006/1-statements-documents-adopted/christian-unity-and-message-to-the-churches/called-to-be-the-one-church-as-adopted.html

Could you point to one single sentence in the document that is unacceptable to your understanding of Orthodoxy?

It's speaking out of both sides of its mouth.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?

I'm sorry, but I refuse to speak to you.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2009, 03:10:18 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2009, 07:15:27 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?
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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2009, 07:19:39 PM »

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting.

The MP did not sign this, Father.  It was signed by one or two attendees at Aleppo.   The document caused a commotion in the Church of Russia in higher circles, as it did to an extent in the Russian Church Abroad.  Russia refused to ratify it and it was dropped like a hot potato.
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« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2009, 07:39:49 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297
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« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2009, 08:02:03 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297


Didn't know you could read Russian, George.
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« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2009, 08:10:16 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297


Didn't know you could read Russian, George.

I don't have to:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=4390
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« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2009, 08:18:52 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297


Didn't know you could read Russian, George.

I don't have to:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=4390

Oh, then I would have done that word search first.  Posting links to things you can't read can prove embarassing....
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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2009, 08:20:05 PM »


All public figures in the Soviet Union (including bishops) were given code names, irrespective of whether they were pro or anti the communist regime.
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2009, 08:24:39 PM »


All public figures in the Soviet Union (including bishops) were given code names, irrespective of whether they were pro or anti the communist regime.

But they weren't all Sergianists now, were they?
Remember the good old days of ROCOR before the split over the Rapprochement as it approached? Anathemas against this and that, condemnations of Sergianism and accusations of who was a KGB agent?....Ah, memories!
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« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2009, 08:40:47 PM »

Remember the good old days of ROCOR before the split over the Rapprochement as it approached? Anathemas against this and that, condemnations of Sergianism and accusations of who was a KGB agent?....Ah, memories!

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections.   The Russian Church Abroad expected it and worked hard to minimise ill effects and to assist people to refrain from going into schism.   We saw much the same happening last century in Greece with the change of church Calendar but the defections and schisms were on a larger scale.
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« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2009, 08:47:42 PM »

Remember the good old days of ROCOR before the split over the Rapprochement as it approached? Anathemas against this and that, condemnations of Sergianism and accusations of who was a KGB agent?....Ah, memories!

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections.   The Russian Church Abroad expected it and worked hard to minimise ill effects and to assist people to refrain from going into schism.   We saw much the same happening last century in Greece with the change of church Calendar but the defections and schisms were on a larger scale.

....and longer.  Maybe that the "memories" George speaks of.
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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2009, 08:51:48 PM »

But they weren't all Sergianists now, were they?

Take care with this author.  I placed a small Caveat about his writings on the forum earlier...
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20543.msg307076.html#msg307076

His ardent defence of Valentine of Suzdal has now turned to disillusionment and he has moved on to some other dissident group.
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2009, 09:05:05 PM »

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections. 
True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18

The Russian Church Abroad expected it
Of course the ROCOR expected it! She has been condemning "Sergianism" for decades and continues to do so. Remember Fr. Nikita Grigoriev report to last year's All Diaspora Council of the ROCOR? Here's a copy:
http://www.rocor.us/docs/english/articles/Fr%20Nikita%20Grigoriev%20on%20Sergianism.pdf
Here are a few quotes from this document which was a report to the Council of the ROCOR:

"The episcopate of ROCOR, however, knew everything quite well. During litigation in court over the
property of a certain Abroad parish, an attorney asked Met. Laurus “and what would happen if you did not join the MP?” to which Met. Laurus responded: “they would kill us”.
Here you have it - Sergianism not in words but precisely in deed."

"The idea of “inner unity in the absence of Eucharistic union” was concocted only recently when the
decision was made to unite ROCOR to the MP. In order to accept such a purely ecumenical idea, “an
enormous psychological transformation” was required. In order to absorb such an enormous
transformation in the people’s psychology, it was imperative to somehow erase the difference
between the Orthodox and the Sergianists from a historical perspective, that is, the difference
between those who did not accept the Declaration and those who did (the followers of Met. Sergius).
The glorification of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia by the MP was an enormously helpful
tool in this regard. Many people were overjoyed by this glorification, perceiving in it a major step in
the right direction by the MP, despite the supposed contradictions, or one might say “conflict of
interest” between the New Martyrs and sergianism. But apparently there are no conflicts here.
According to the Sergianist glorification, among the new martyrs are included even those who signed
the treacherous and blasphemous Declaration of Met. Sergius. And these are not isolated individual
cases, but on the contrary, an overwhelming majority (more than 80%) as stated by the MP
protopriest in charge of this matter."


Three cheers for ROCOR's valiant stance against the Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate!
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« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2009, 09:22:29 PM »

Ah, poor George!  Have to make the most of the Patriarch Kyrill's tenure, as if, as is rumored, should Bishop Hilarion succeed him, there will be nothing to talk about, despite the fact that Bishop Hilarion was educated by, and finished his doctorate under,  that notorious KGB agent in Great Britain, Bishop Kallistos Ware.  Who's his primate again?

But what does His Grace Hilarion know?
Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Statement at the meeting of the EU leadership with religious leaders of Europe

Brussels, 5 May 2008

One would expect from the EU authorities that they will do more to protect Europe’s Christian heritage. This relates, in particular, to the Kosovo region, where churches are being brutally destroyed, and thousands of Christians are left homeless or forced into exile. It also relates to that part of Cyprus which is still unlawfully occupied by Turkish military forces, where churches are being ruined and the remaining Christian population continues to suffer excessively.

Turkey aspires towards membership in the European Union, while at the same time continuing to neglect the needs of its Christian population. Turkey’s refusal to reopen the theological school on Halki, in spite of repeated requests from the Patriarchate of Constantinople, is but one of many examples of such neglect. This largely anti-Christian policy is presently enforced by the official denial of the atrocities committed against Christians in the past, such as the genocide of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians. I hope that the EU will use the mechanism of negotiation with Turkey in order to ensure that crimes of the past will never be repeated in the future, and that religious minorities in Turkey will be treated according to civilized standards.
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« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2009, 09:33:14 PM »

You're backing the wrong horse ialmisry  Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2009, 09:37:47 PM »

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections. 
True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18

The Protos of the ROAC, +Valentine of Suzdal, was arrested on Holy Friday by the Russian police.   Material emanating from his website is polemical in its intent. 

If one researches +Valetine's own church history we find he was a happy camper in the "Sergianist" Church for decades.   

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Quote
Of course the ROCOR expected it! She has been condemning "Sergianism" for decades and continues to do so. Remember Fr. Nikita Grigoriev report to last year's All Diaspora Council of the ROCOR? Here's a copy:
http://www.rocor.us/docs/english/articles/Fr%20Nikita%20Grigoriev%20on%20Sergianism.pdf
Here are a few quotes from this document which was a report to the Council of the ROCOR:

"The episcopate of ROCOR, however, knew everything quite well. During litigation in court over the
property of a certain Abroad parish, an attorney asked Met. Laurus “and what would happen if you did not join the MP?” to which Met. Laurus responded: “they would kill us”.
Here you have it - Sergianism not in words but precisely in deed."

"The idea of “inner unity in the absence of Eucharistic union” was concocted only recently when the
decision was made to unite ROCOR to the MP. In order to accept such a purely ecumenical idea, “an
enormous psychological transformation” was required. In order to absorb such an enormous
transformation in the people’s psychology, it was imperative to somehow erase the difference
between the Orthodox and the Sergianists from a historical perspective, that is, the difference
between those who did not accept the Declaration and those who did (the followers of Met. Sergius).
The glorification of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia by the MP was an enormously helpful
tool in this regard. Many people were overjoyed by this glorification, perceiving in it a major step in
the right direction by the MP, despite the supposed contradictions, or one might say “conflict of
interest” between the New Martyrs and sergianism. But apparently there are no conflicts here.
According to the Sergianist glorification, among the new martyrs are included even those who signed
the treacherous and blasphemous Declaration of Met. Sergius. And these are not isolated individual
cases, but on the contrary, an overwhelming majority (more than 80%) as stated by the MP
protopriest in charge of this matter."


Three cheers for ROCOR's valiant stance against the Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate!

Fr Nikita Grigoriev has, alas, followed his thoughts to their logical conclusion and has left the Orthodox Church.  As with the other priests who have chosen that path, the Synod of the Russian Church Abroad has taken no action against them but has left the door open for their return.
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« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2009, 09:43:50 PM »


The Protos of the ROAC, +Valentine of Suzdal, was arrested on Holy Friday by the Russian police.   Material emanating from his website is polemical in its intent. 

This is attempted character assassination. Maybe you would like to expound on why he was arrested. By saying he was arrested on Friday without discussing why, could lead to wildly different assumptions...

Quote
If one researches +Valetine's own church history we find he was a happy camper in the "Sergianist" Church for decades. 

Saul participated in the murder of St Stephen before he converted and became an Apostle...

Quote
Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Well it wouldn't be convenient...

« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 09:45:30 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2009, 09:46:07 PM »

You're backing the wrong horse ialmisry  Smiley
In case I die before you do, just remember these words:
"I told you so."

I think we are of similar age, and my ex wife has taken at least two decades off my life.  So chances are that I'll be answering to a greater moderator sooner.

But not to worry.  I believe we will be running down the home stretch by summer's end.
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« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2009, 09:53:23 PM »

my ex wife has taken at least two decades off my life.
LOL! Cheesy
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« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2009, 09:56:19 PM »

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."
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« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2009, 10:09:39 PM »

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."

Like what Constantinople did about Patriarch St. Tikhon?

St. John Maximovich:
Quote
The Decline of Moral Authority
The moral authority of the Patriarchs of Constantinople has likewise fallen very low in view of their extreme instability in ecclesiastical matters. Thus, Patriarch Meletius IV arranged a “Pan-Orthodox Congress,” with representatives of various churches, which decreed the introduction of the New Calendar. This decree, recognized only by a part of the Church, introduced a frightful schism among Orthodox Christians. Patriarch Gregory VII recognized the decree of the council of the Living Church concerning the deposing of Patriarch Tikhon, whom not long before this the Synod of Constantinople had declared a “confessor,” and then he entered into communion with the “Renovationists” in Russia, which continues up to now.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles-2009/Maximovitch-The-Decline-Of-The-Patriarchate-Of-Constantinople.php
[/quote]

By Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
April 9, 1925, Thursday

“ . . . the Holy Synod succeeded in influencing the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Church in Constantinople Gregory VII to endorse the decision of the Russian Conclave, which deposed and unfrocked Dr. Tikhon, thus  dealing the heaviest blow he had yet sustained.”
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« Reply #120 on: April 26, 2009, 10:16:04 PM »


The Protos of the ROAC, +Valentine of Suzdal, was arrested on Holy Friday by the Russian police.   Material emanating from his website is polemical in its intent. 
This is attempted character assassination. Maybe you would like to expound on why he was arrested. By saying he was arrested on Friday without discussing why, could lead to wildly different assumptions...

As has been reported in recent news stories, the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church is being sued for possession of 13 churches that it received from local authorities over the past 15-20 years, which were received by us in utterly ruined conditions and carefully renovated and returned to use as churches at our expense. The cases were heard at trial on February 5th by the Vladimir Regional Court of Arbitration. This court ruled against the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church and ordered the local authorities to confiscate the churches. We were given 30 days to vacate the buildings. Appeals were begun, and recently the Court of Appeals postponed the hearing of these cases until the 24th of April. Believing that the Court of Appeals is prejudiced against us, and in compliance with the court order, our people have been trying to gradually remove our belongings from these churches - vestments, icons, church vessels, books, etc. Two of our deacons were recently detained by the local police, who explained that they had received a request from the Moscow Patriarchate not to allow us to remove our own belongings from these churches. Apparently, they think that they have a right even to those furnishings that we have placed in these churches.

Today, on Orthodox Good Friday, Metropolitan Valentine made a frantic telephone call to Bishop Andrew of Pavlovskoye, who resides in the US, and had time enough to say only that he and those with him have been arrested for entering the church to serve Holy Week services, before his telephone call was cut off.

We ask all of our people to pray for the deliverance of our FIRST HIERARCH from police custody, and we ask all men of good will, who value the rights of people everywhere to pray in peace and freedom of conscience, as supposedly guaranteed by the Constitution of the new Russian Federation, to make their concerns known to the authorities both in Russia and in their respective countries.
Source: http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=english&id=341
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« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2009, 11:25:20 PM »

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."

Dear George,

All-Diaspora Councils, involving clergy and laity, are venues specifically held for the expression of opinions.   Fr Nikita Grigoriev was entitled to present his.

Unfortunately his mindset led him out of canonical Orthodoxy and he is now a member a group which both Constantinople and Moscow would see as schismatic.   His presentation is posted on a webpage of this group

http://www.rocor.us/docs/english/articles/Fr%20Nikita%20Grigoriev%20on%20Sergianism.pdf

http://www.rocor.us/
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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2009, 05:46:30 AM »


Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."

My apologies, George.

As I've mentioned this is not a website of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad but one of the dissident groups recently formed as a protest over the union of the Church Abroad with the Moscow Patriarchate.

Further, this was NOT an All-Disapora Council of the canonical Russian Church Abroard.  The last of these was held prior to the union with Moscow.  This presentation of Fr Nikita Grigoriev was not to any official Church Council but to the small group which he has joined.

Their website:
http://www.rocor.us/
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« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2009, 09:11:28 PM »

True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18
So the Russian Patriarch is becoming "a criminal with the criminals'. It is not right to see this unsubstantiated gossip presented to the Forum.   People should take more care with the material they submit here.



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« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2009, 01:32:18 AM »

True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18
So the Russian Patriarch is becoming "a criminal with the criminals'. It is not right to see this unsubstantiated gossip presented to the Forum.   People should take more care with the material they submit here.
You do realize, though, that it isn't George who originated this accusation against the MP?  That he's merely saying,  "This is what the True Orthodox are saying about the MP"?
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« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2009, 05:51:47 AM »

True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18
So the Russian Patriarch is becoming "a criminal with the criminals'. It is not right to see this unsubstantiated gossip presented to the Forum.   People should take more care with the material they submit here.



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Stashko, why not take this up with Vladimir Moss who was in ROCOR when he wrote this- and was a "Traditionalist" (just like you Smiley)?
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« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2009, 05:56:04 AM »

ozgeorge, you should know better than that ...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2009, 06:21:45 AM »

ozgeorge, you should know better than that ...  Roll Eyes

What do you mean? Spit it out.
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« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2009, 01:59:24 AM »

Hi All,

I actually used to attend Holy Trinity in Saginaw.  I don't understand (or know) the entire history of this church, nor how or why it ended up how it did, but this is the information that I have -- take it as it is, I am just a lay person. 

The church ended up being run by Bishop Andreas (Nowak), many of you will not know who he is, and that is OK.  My purpose for this post is not to debate particular orders or synods (mostly because I am not of authority or knowledge to make any comments on this).  For about (what I can gather) is about 10 years, he ran the church, and then suddenly the church council decided to close the church.  The details become sketchy at this point, but needless to say some rather sad things happened and this church no longer operates. 

The church in Dearborn, I think, is not connected to the Church in Saginaw.  As was already discussed, there is a bit of difference in location between Dearborn and Saginaw.  There may (however) be a connection I am not aware of, an perhaps that is where this church ended up. 

Unfortunately, there were a couple of problems when this church found its demise.  One big problem was that most of the parishioners were quite old (not that there is anything wrong with being old Wink ).  That being the way it was, the church really had no where to go.  Another big problem was that the number of people attending the services was relatively small (20-30 people on a good day).  Rounding out the problems was the fact that the church was in a fairly bad area of Saginaw (which I am sure with the economic downturn has become progressively worse). 

Somewhere I have pictures of this church.  I am sure that there are people who also have a 50th anniversary book with pictures in it.  The church was lovely (if outdated).  It had a traditional "onion" dome, with a bell and everything.  The iconostasis had been donated by Saint Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church in Saginaw (at least that was what I was told, and if you had ever seen this iconostasis, you would believe it).   

Anyways, it is another sad story, something that I really hate given the many times I went to this church.  I hope this gives you a little information about it. 

In Christ,

Aleksei



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« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2009, 09:22:07 PM »

On 5/18 November 2004, the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR confimed the previous anathemas laid down by the Russian True-Orthodox Church (Catacomb Church) :

 “To those holding fast to the most-insane renovationist heresy of the sergianists: to those who teach that the earthly establishment of the Church of God is maintained by rejecting the truths of Christ; and to those who declare that the Church of Christ is saved by serving the theomachic authorities and carrying out their godless commands, even unto the trampling down of the sacred canons, the traditions of the Holy Fathers and the divine dogmas, and to the destruction of all Christianity; and to those who revere the antichrist and his servants, and his forerunners, and all his minions, as a legitmate authority and one established by God; and to all the leaders of that antichristian heresy, those who revile the Confessors and New Martyrs (to Sergei of Nizhegorod, to Nikolai of Kiev and to Aleksy of Khutyn), and to those who would repeat their doctrines, and to the renovationists, and to other heretics, — anathema”.

To those who madly proclaim the renovationist heresy of sergianism; to those who teach that the earthly existence of the Church of God can be based upon the denial of the truth of Christ and proclaim that serving God-hating authorities and being faithful to their atheistic commands which trample upon the sacred canons, the tradition of the Holy Fathers and the divine dogmas, and destroy all of Christianity, saves the Church of Christ; and to those who revere the antichrist and his servants, and his forerunners, and all his minions, as a legitimate authority from God; and to those who blaspheme against the new confessors and martyrs — Anathema!


"To the pseudo-patriarchs and persecutors of the true Church of Christ: to Sergei Stragorodsky, the originator of the heresy; to Aleksy Simansky, to Pimen Izvekov, to Aleksy Ridiger, as well as to pseudo-metropolitan Nikodim Rotov, a zealot and champion of this God-abominated heresy of sergianism, and to all those who would repeat their doctrines and their followers — Anathema”
.

Also the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR anathematized the Moscow Patriarchate again, as follows:

«To those who affirm the antichristian sergianist heresy; to those who teach that the Church of Christ is ostensibly saved through union with Christ's enemies, who reject the podvig of martyrdom and confession of the faith, who set up a pseudo-church on the grounds of Judas, and who, for this purpose, permit the doctrine, canons and moral laws of Christianity to be violated; to those who direct Christians to worship a theomachic regime, ostensibly given by God, and to serve it not out of fear but for conscience's sake, blessing all its iniquities; to those who justify the persecution of the True Church of Christ by the theomachs, thinking that they thereby serve God, - as, indeed, did the continuators of the renovationist heresy, Metropolitan Sergii Stragorodskii and all his followers - Anathema!»

The following must be emphasized:

1.- The ROCOR together with the Catacomb Church is the sole canonical and legitimate Russian Orthodox Church.

2.- The ROCOR has anathematized the MP and has no contact with that institution which is impossible to name a church.

3.- ROCOR has condemned the new and false ROCOR founded by Met Laurus in 2001, as an uncanonical (unlawful) breakaway faction.

4.- ROCOR remains in communion with the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece, (GOC) and other True Orthodox groups.

5.- ROCOR has condemned the unorthodox teachings of Metropolitan Kiprianos (Kotsumbas) and has no communion with the "kiprianist churches" (GOC under Metropolitan Kiprianos, ROCOR under Met Agathangelos, etc..)

6.- ROCOR views the new "ROCOR" as an integral part of the MP, and has no relationship with it.

If anyone wishes to have more information on the true, canonical, and legitimate ROCOR, and do more research on the above mentioned information, visit:

http://www.rocor-v.com/rocor/off20046.html

http://www.rocor-v.com/rocor/off20048.html

The false information posted by some in here, made it needful to emphasize the above mentioned. 


 



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« Reply #130 on: June 29, 2009, 09:21:57 PM »

Abstracts from the writtings of Protoierei Lev Labedeff on ROCOR's position in relationship with the MP

"THE POSITION OF THE ROCOR IN RELATION TO THE MP:

One cannot but admit that the apostate, heretical and criminal state of the overwhelming majority of the MP hierarchy corresponds entirely to this state of society as a whole; it is one of the "moles" or "worms" greedily devouring whatever it can still find to devour in the rotting corpse. Under these circumstances what can the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia have in common with the Moscow "Patriarchate"? Nothing! Hence it follows that any kind of "dialogue" or "conference" with the MP with the aim of clarifying "what divides us and what unites us" is either an abysmal failure to understand the essence of things or a betrayal of God's truth and the Church. What divides us is literally everything! And what unites us is nothing, except perhaps the outward forms of church buildings, clerical vestments and the order of services (but not in all respects even here).

Therefore it is necessary to realize clearly and confirm officially that now the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia is not a part of the Church of Russia, but the only lawful Russian Church in all its fullness!

For the ones mislead by the fantastic number of members of the MP, Father Lev offers the following insight:

The Russian speaking believers in Russia are characterized by a predominance of earthly interests over spiritual, by an underhand, dishonest psychology, by "believing a lie," and by "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable" (Rev. 21,8). Magic and sorcery have spread to an extraordinary degree. Nobody seeks Christ and His righteousness: each seeks only "his own." What really proves this is that since 1990-1991, in circumstances of real freedom of conscience in Russia, the Russian speakers have not turned en mass, as an entire people, to the Church and to Christ.

A certain insignificant revival of faith and a trickle of young people into the Church has taken place, but now even this is on the wane. If we go by the statistics, at the present time in the Russian Federation there are no more than 15-20 million Orthodox believers, and only half as many regularly attend church. According to the data of the MP, while as recently as 1993 voluntary donations from individuals made up 43% of all the "patriarchate's" revenues, in 1997 they represented only 6%! The "patriarchate" obtains the rest from usurious money-lending, trading in oil, vodka and tobacco and from other forms of "business," as well as from poorly understood foreign sources.

It is sometimes said that in Russia there is no small number of good, fine people. But the same could be said of the Catholics and Protestants in any western country. It is also said that in Russia even now one can find, even in the bosom of the MP, pious people zealously struggling in prayer and fasting. But it is important to understand that these are not the first rays of sunrise, but the last rays of the sunset. On a rubbish dump you might find antiques, icons and even things made of gold, but still it is not a palace and not a temple, but just a rubbish dump.100 years ago, in 1899, Vladika Anthony (Khrapovitsky) wrote of the "unchurched" part of Russian society of his time: "It is no longer a people, but a rotting corpse, which takes its rotting as a sign of life, while on it, or in it, live only moles, worms and foul insects... for in a living body they would find no satisfaction for their greed, and there would be nothing for them to live on" (Talberg, "History of the Russian Church," Jordanville, 1959, p. 831). At the end of the last century and the beginning of our twentieth century this rotting part of the Russian population made up about 5 - 6% of the total. Now, at the end of the twentieth century, in Russia it constitutes 94 - 95%. The entire Russian Federation taken as a whole is a "rotting corpse".


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Tags: chrism Agent Drozdov Moscow Patriarchate Russian Orthodox Church 
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