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Author Topic: Strange things in MP's Parishes and Ialmisry's thoughts on Chrism and Innovation  (Read 15952 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 02, 2009, 10:04:53 AM »

Quote
It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Eminence Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.”

source

Parishes under omophorion of two Local Churches simultaneously? Could one explain me this?
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 11:55:42 AM »

Quote
It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Eminence Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.”

source

Parishes under omophorion of two Local Churches simultaneously? Could one explain me this?

There seems to be precedence:
Quote
Czar Nicholas II made the first donation to the building fund, 5,000 rubles, then about $2,500. in may 1901, when the cornerstone was laid, it bore a silver plaque praising him. "long live the Emperor of Russia and the President of the United States," proclaimed the rev. Alexander Hotovitsky, the minister.
http://russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=985&ln=en

I wonder if this is a sign that the RP parishes are going to be integrated into the OCA.

Does anyone know what is the status of ROCA vis-a-vis the RP parishes and vis-a-vis the OCA?

The same page may have some bearing on thread about the question of American bishops:

Quote
Last April, Aleksy II, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church in Moscow, sent Bishop Mercurius to take over St. Nicholas. "He asked me if I had ever been to America," Bishop Mercurius said through an interpreter. " And I said, " No," and he said, "OK., go."

with good signs:

Quote
Bishop Mercurius said he is seeking many changes at St. Nicholas, where there is no exterior sign announcing the days and times of services, and where the gates on the front steps are often locked. "The cathedral has to be open every day, regardless," he said. "A lock on the door of a cathedral is not a good thing."
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 01:23:51 PM »

I seriously doubt that ROCOR would be going under OCA.  It is being regulary stated by ROCOR clergy, especially Bishop Jerome (Fr. John Shaw), that ROCOR does not recognize OCA autocephaly AND was never required to recognize OCA autocephaly by the MP.   

I heard one ROCOR clergyman recently make an observation that that by working closely with ROCOR in the USA, the MP can actually get around the restrictions of the TOMOS which limits its activities.

Also, consider this: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/3enmosds.html
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 02:23:55 PM »

How will there every be jurisdictional unity this country if that is believed???  police
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 02:42:33 PM »

I heard one ROCOR clergyman recently make an observation that that by working closely with ROCOR in the USA, the MP can actually get around the restrictions of the TOMOS which limits its activities.

So now they want to disobey the tomos which was granted by them?  Huh It's a nonsense.

And even not openly but creeping in shadows It's idiotic!

How will there every be jurisdictional unity this country if that is believed???  police

No idea but it seems that niether of the Primates wants it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 02:48:14 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 02:50:37 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.

It would be good if OCA absorbed ROCOR and let them use the Julian one. Calendar is not an issue but an excuse.
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 02:51:08 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would could also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.

I altered your post a wee bit.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 03:48:57 PM »

I say just mix them together already, but everything takes time in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 08:52:34 PM »

I'm fairly certain that's how Patriarchal parishes have always been supposed to do it (just updated to reflect the new Patriarch and Metropolitan). Under the OCA's Tomos, those North American parishes that remained under the MP have the technical (if not functional) status of representation churches. That is, they are 'guest' parishes in the territory of another Church. And it is standard at representation churches to commemorate both the church's own hierarchy and the actual hierarch of the territory they are located in. Thus the OCA's representation church in Moscow also commemorates Patriarch Kiril and Metropolitan Jonah (though in reverse order).

(No idea what, if any relevance this has to ROCOR since I've never seen anything that even attempts to reconcile ROCOR's current relationship with the MP with the MP's relationship with the OCA. So far, the idea seems to be to simply pretend that the two have nothing to do with each other).
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 10:36:07 PM »

I'm fairly certain that's how Patriarchal parishes have always been supposed to do it (just updated to reflect the new Patriarch and Metropolitan). Under the OCA's Tomos, those North American parishes that remained under the MP have the technical (if not functional) status of representation churches. That is, they are 'guest' parishes in the territory of another Church. And it is standard at representation churches to commemorate both the church's own hierarchy and the actual hierarch of the territory they are located in. Thus the OCA's representation church in Moscow also commemorates Patriarch Kiril and Metropolitan Jonah (though in reverse order).

(No idea what, if any relevance this has to ROCOR since I've never seen anything that even attempts to reconcile ROCOR's current relationship with the MP with the MP's relationship with the OCA. So far, the idea seems to be to simply pretend that the two have nothing to do with each other).

ROCOR seem to fall under this in the Tomos of Autocephaly:
Quote
7. The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.


8. The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above men¬tioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Para¬graph 3, points a,b,c.

I'm not sure what "Division 1" is refering to.  Paragraph 3:
Quote
3. The following are excluded from autocephaly on the territory of North America:
a. St. Nicholas Cathedral and its possessions, located at 15 East 97th Street in New York City and the accompanying residence; and also the immovable possessions in Pine Bush, New York, together with buildings and edifices which might be constructed in the future on this land;

b. Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which at present are in the Patriarchal Exarchate and which desire to remain in the canonical and jurisdictional care of the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia – these parishes, desiring to remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and excluded from the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America are the following:

1. St. Nicholas Church, Brookside, State of Alabama
2. St. Demetrius Monastery, Bellflower, State of California
3. Christ the Savior Church, Berkley, State of California
4. St. Nicholas Cathedral, San Francisco, State of California
5. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, San Francisco, State of California
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
7. Resurrection Church, Chicago, State of Illinois
8. Dormition Church Benld, State of Illinois
9. Holy Trinity Church, Baltimore, State of Maryland
10. St. Elias Church, Battle Creek, State of Michigan
11. St. Innocent Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
12. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
13. Church of St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle, East Lansing, State of Michigan
14. Holy Trinity Church, Saginaw, State of Michigan
15. St. John Chrysostom Church, Grand Rapids, State of Michigan
16. House Chapel of St. Seraphim of Sarov, Westown, State of New York
17. St. Demetrius Church, Jackson, State of Michigan
18. St. Nicholas Church, Bayonne, State of New Jersey
19. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Elizabeth, State of New Jersey
20. Three Hierarchs Church, Garfield, State of New Jersey
21. Holy Cross Church, Hackettstown, State of New Jersey
22. Sts. Peter and Paul Church; Passaic, State of New Jersey
23. St. John the Baptist Church, Singac (Little Falls), State of New Jersey
24. St. Olga Church, Somerset, State of New Jersey
25. St. Mark Chapel, State of New York
26. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, State of New York
27. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, on the estate of Pine Bush, State of New York
28. St. John the Baptist Chapel, Bronx, State of New York
29. Church of All Saints Glotified in the Russian Land, Amsterdam (Wolf Run), State of Ohio
30. St. Stephen Church, Lorairi, State of Ohio
31. Nativity of Christ Church, Youngstown, State of Ohio
32. St. Nicholas Church, Chester, State of Pennsylvania
33. St. Nicholas Church, Edinboro, Pageville, State of Pennsylvania
34. St. Nicholas Church, Reading, State of Pennsylvania
35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania
36. St. Nicholas Church, Wilkes-Barre, State of Pennsylvania
37. St. Andrew the Apostle Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
38. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
39. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Scranton, State of Pennsylvania
40. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Burgaw, State of North Carolina
41. St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Tampa, State of Florida
42. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Manchester, State of New Hampshire
43. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, Buffalo, State of New York

c. All parishes and clergy in Canada, which presently constitute the Edmonton, Canada Diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate (they all desired to remain in the jurisdiction of the Most Holy Patriarch).

I think the parish in Chicago was folded when the priest was recalled back to Russia to help with the demand there after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  What has happened to the rest?  Have any joined the OCA? per

Quote
9. The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes them¬selves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Auto¬cephalous Church in America.

10. The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

11. The Patriarchate assures the parishes remaining in its care of its readiness to defend their status as parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate, and also defend the enumerated parishes from attempts to change their present status without a free expression of their decision without the written agreement of the Moscow Patriarchate.

btw
Quote
6. Parishes and clergy which at this time constitute the Edmonton, Canada Diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate and remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 12:59:49 AM »

Quote
. . .
10. St. Elias Church, Battle Creek, State of Michigan
11. St. Innocent Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
12. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
13. Church of St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle, East Lansing, State of Michigan
14. Holy Trinity Church, Saginaw, State of Michigan
15. St. John Chrysostom Church, Grand Rapids, State of Michigan
. . .
17. St. Demetrius Church, Jackson, State of Michigan
. . .

I think the parish in Chicago was folded when the priest was recalled back to Russia to help with the demand there after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  What has happened to the rest?  Have any joined the OCA?

Of the Michigan Patriarchal parishes, St Demetrius in Jackson did indeed join the Metropolia (1983; they applied in 1979). Holy Trinity in Saginaw went to the Ukrainians, and finally closed at some point during the past 10 years. The rest of the parishes remain in the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 02:53:29 AM »

After a little digging around, here's some more information.

Other Patriarchal parishes that joined the Metropolia:

Quote
29. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, Amsterdam (Wolf Run), State of Ohio
43. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, Buffalo, State of New York

The Buffalo parish joined in 1970. I haven't been able to find a date for the Amsterdam/Wolf Run parish.

The following parishes have basically closed, but never left the Moscow Patriarchate:

Quote
24. St. Olga Church, Somerset, State of New Jersey
33. St. Nicholas Church, Edinboro, Pageville, State of Pennsylvania
40. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Burgaw, State of North Carolina

There's an interesting article about the Burgaw parish here.

As for this parish:

Quote
35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

There's a parish of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese with an identical name and location, but that may just be an altogether different parish for all I know. At any rate, no such parish is currently listed among the Patriarchal parishes in US.

Finally, in addition to the Michigan parishes listed above, all the following still are active Patriarchal parishes:

Quote
1. St. Nicholas Church, Brookside, State of Alabama
. . .
4. St. Nicholas Cathedral, San Francisco, State of California
. . .
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
. . .
8. Dormition Church Benld, State of Illinois
9. Holy Trinity Church, Baltimore, State of Maryland
. . .
18. St. Nicholas Church, Bayonne, State of New Jersey
19. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Elizabeth, State of New Jersey
20. Three Hierarchs Church, Garfield, State of New Jersey
21. Holy Cross Church, Hackettstown, State of New Jersey
22. Sts. Peter and Paul Church; Passaic, State of New Jersey
23. St. John the Baptist Church, Singac (Little Falls), State of New Jersey
. . .
26. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, State of New York
27. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, on the estate of Pine Bush, State of New York
. . .
31. Nativity of Christ Church, Youngstown, State of Ohio
32. St. Nicholas Church, Chester, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
34. St. Nicholas Church, Reading, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
36. St. Nicholas Church, Wilkes-Barre, State of Pennsylvania
37. St. Andrew the Apostle Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
38. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
39. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Scranton, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
41. St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Tampa, State of Florida
42. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Manchester, State of New Hampshire
. . .

That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 01:56:14 PM »

After a little digging around, here's some more information.

Other Patriarchal parishes that joined the Metropolia:

Quote
29. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, Amsterdam (Wolf Run), State of Ohio
43. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, Buffalo, State of New York

The Buffalo parish joined in 1970. I haven't been able to find a date for the Amsterdam/Wolf Run parish.

The following parishes have basically closed, but never left the Moscow Patriarchate:

Quote
24. St. Olga Church, Somerset, State of New Jersey
33. St. Nicholas Church, Edinboro, Pageville, State of Pennsylvania
40. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Burgaw, State of North Carolina

There's an interesting article about the Burgaw parish here.

As for this parish:

Quote
35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

There's a parish of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese with an identical name and location, but that may just be an altogether different parish for all I know. At any rate, no such parish is currently listed among the Patriarchal parishes in US.

Finally, in addition to the Michigan parishes listed above, all the following still are active Patriarchal parishes:

Quote
1. St. Nicholas Church, Brookside, State of Alabama
. . .
4. St. Nicholas Cathedral, San Francisco, State of California
. . .
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
. . .
8. Dormition Church Benld, State of Illinois
9. Holy Trinity Church, Baltimore, State of Maryland
. . .
18. St. Nicholas Church, Bayonne, State of New Jersey
19. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Elizabeth, State of New Jersey
20. Three Hierarchs Church, Garfield, State of New Jersey
21. Holy Cross Church, Hackettstown, State of New Jersey
22. Sts. Peter and Paul Church; Passaic, State of New Jersey
23. St. John the Baptist Church, Singac (Little Falls), State of New Jersey
. . .
26. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, State of New York
27. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, on the estate of Pine Bush, State of New York
. . .
31. Nativity of Christ Church, Youngstown, State of Ohio
32. St. Nicholas Church, Chester, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
34. St. Nicholas Church, Reading, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
36. St. Nicholas Church, Wilkes-Barre, State of Pennsylvania
37. St. Andrew the Apostle Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
38. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
39. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Scranton, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
41. St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Tampa, State of Florida
42. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Manchester, State of New Hampshire
. . .

That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.

Nice detective work. Thanks.
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 02:30:24 PM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 02:49:56 PM »

35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

That belongs to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) now.  It sits right off Route 22 across the Juniata River in Mount Union, PA.  It's the same church as the church in the list.  The priest is Father Thomas Klein, he also takes care of the ACROD churches in Huntingdon, PA and Wood, PA. 
At one time coal was mined in that region by Rusyn/Galcian immigrants hence the small Orthodox communities that still exist in Huntingdon County, PA. 
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 03:17:56 PM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink

The Continental Congress extended invitations to the Canadian provinces to the United States of America in Congress Assembled, as they did to West and East Florida.  The Canadians declined the offer, even when sent with force of arms, and, unlike Florida, never took the offer up.  I'm just respecting their decision.
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 03:19:00 PM »

35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

That belongs to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) now.  It sits right off Route 22 across the Juniata River in Mount Union, PA.  It's the same church as the church in the list.  The priest is Father Thomas Klein, he also takes care of the ACROD churches in Huntingdon, PA and Wood, PA. 
At one time coal was mined in that region by Rusyn/Galcian immigrants hence the small Orthodox communities that still exist in Huntingdon County, PA. 

So the EP took them without release from Moscow?
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 03:50:36 PM »

ialmisry> Quite welcome!

Note that there's a small mistake in my post, however: St Nicholas in Edinboro, PA should be listed among the active parishes, not the closed ones. Clearly that no-good editor nodded! Grin

username!> Thanks the information! That makes at least two parishes (Holy Trinity in Saginaw, MI and Ss Peter and Paul in Mount Union, PA) that left the Moscow Patriarchate but did not go to the Metropolia, and then three former Patriarchal parishes that did join it (All Saints in Amsterdam/Wolf Run, OH; St. George in Buffalo, NY; and St Demetrius in Jackson, MI).

If you happen to know how Ss Peter and Paul in Mount Union ended up in ACROD, I'd sure love to know! I'll try to find out how Holy Trinity in Saginaw ended up with the Ukrainians, as that's more or less local and someone around here is bound to know.
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 03:51:21 PM »

Calendar is not an issue but an excuse.

I suspect you're correct, sadly.


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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2009, 04:00:44 PM »

35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

That belongs to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) now.  It sits right off Route 22 across the Juniata River in Mount Union, PA.  It's the same church as the church in the list.  The priest is Father Thomas Klein, he also takes care of the ACROD churches in Huntingdon, PA and Wood, PA. 
At one time coal was mined in that region by Rusyn/Galcian immigrants hence the small Orthodox communities that still exist in Huntingdon County, PA.  

So the EP took them without release from Moscow?

Unless you're asserting that there was no release, then it should be safe to presume that yes, there was some sort of release; otherwise there would have been enough publicity about a MP/EP tiff over ACROD parishes.
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2009, 04:10:38 PM »

I heard one ROCOR clergyman recently make an observation that that by working closely with ROCOR in the USA, the MP can actually get around the restrictions of the TOMOS which limits its activities.

So now they want to disobey the tomos which was granted by them?  Huh It's a nonsense.

And even not openly but creeping in shadows It's idiotic!

One wonders if there is a level of regret w/the MP over the tomos.  After all, how could it be that ROCOR is not at all restricted by it?  Why was there no official outcry from the OCA that ROCOR does not recognize autocephaly?  If there was, please link it.  It seems to be the fair route would have been a tri-unity between OCA, MP and ROCOR.

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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2009, 06:31:04 PM »


One wonders if there is a level of regret w/the MP over the tomos.  After all, how could it be that ROCOR is not at all restricted by it?  Why was there no official outcry from the OCA that ROCOR does not recognize autocephaly?  If there was, please link it.  It seems to be the fair route would have been a tri-unity between OCA, MP and ROCOR.


I've often wondered that, as well, but I remember the Moscow Patriarchate insisting that a representative of the OCA be present for any official pan-Orthodox synod.  You have to give them credit for sticking to their word re: the Tomos.
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2009, 07:43:05 PM »


One wonders if there is a level of regret w/the MP over the tomos.  After all, how could it be that ROCOR is not at all restricted by it?  Why was there no official outcry from the OCA that ROCOR does not recognize autocephaly?  If there was, please link it.  It seems to be the fair route would have been a tri-unity between OCA, MP and ROCOR.


I've often wondered that, as well, but I remember the Moscow Patriarchate insisting that a representative of the OCA be present for any official pan-Orthodox synod.  You have to give them credit for sticking to their word re: the Tomos.

I seem to be getting mixed signals, though.   We have what you say on the one hand, then we have the fact of the MP uniting with ROCOR who simply does not recognize OCA autocephaly (and all of the implications that come with this non-recognition!). 

I remember well before the union (and even a bit into it) there was wild speculation that the non-Russian converts would somehow be steered into the OCA.  With all of the talk of "perserving Russian heritage", "Russianness", etc it almost seemed like a believable compromise that would at least include the OCA into the equation.  The question of the OCA's role in the union was brought up and debated at various ROCOR meetings.  Many people could not understand how ROCOR could unite with the MP and not somehow be tied in administratively with the OCA given the tomos.   This certainly had some of the convert lay people and clergy questioning their future with all of the Russian flag waving going on.  Keep in mind that a good number of the converts who are in ROCOR are there because of their more traditional format as well as the old calendar.   Add to this the writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose which are a big influence, especially his speaking out against ecumenism and the world council of churches.  Of all of the so-called "canonical" jurisdictions ROCOR was pretty much a voice crying out in the wilderness on those issues for many years.  I would almost dare to say people percieved this position as her "brand".  Now, this speculation fear of English speaking converts getting pushed towards the OCA is gone as there is a big push to open up ROCOR missions here in the states.   We recently had the appointment of two non-Russian bishops, one of which is specifically appointed to handle English speaking convert parishes and missions. 

I don't know how this will play into the whole 'jurisdictional unity movement' here in the states but it is good that ROCOR has addressed the concerns, shown major support and care for her English-speaking converts.
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 03:24:35 AM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink

The Continental Congress extended invitations to the Canadian provinces to the United States of America in Congress Assembled, as they did to West and East Florida.  The Canadians declined the offer, even when sent with force of arms, and, unlike Florida, never took the offer up.  I'm just respecting their decision.

What's your point?  The OCA isn't the Church in the United States, it's the Church in North America.  Have the Canadians removed themselves from the continent?
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2009, 12:54:17 PM »

Keep in mind that a good number of the converts who are in ROCOR are there because of their more traditional format as well as the old calendar.

As bad as the WCC is, the NCC is worse, and the AOCA pulled out of the NCC some years ago. Now that I find myself in an OCA parish, I wish they would follow suit.

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I don't know how this will play into the whole 'jurisdictional unity movement' here in the states but it is good that ROCOR has addressed the concerns, shown major support and care for her English-speaking converts.

Amen!

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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2009, 11:52:53 PM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink


The Continental Congress extended invitations to the Canadian provinces to the United States of America in Congress Assembled, as they did to West and East Florida.  The Canadians declined the offer, even when sent with force of arms, and, unlike Florida, never took the offer up.  I'm just respecting their decision.

What's your point?  The OCA isn't the Church in the United States, it's the Church in North America.  Have the Canadians removed themselves from the continent?

No, but let's be honest: that's not a fact most Americans do or can take cognisance of.  In the Church or outside it: when I was in the OCA, I remember some complaints about the "and Canada" being more of an afterthought.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 11:39:07 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.

Exactly!
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 11:51:41 PM »

The parish in Saginaw, MI did not completely dissapear, it merged with another parish of UOC-USA, Holy Trinity, located in Dearborn, MI. But the facilities of Holy Trinity in Dearborn remained used, not in Saginaw. While I never visited the parish personally, the references / impressions were good.

As for the original list, St. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Manchester, NH, did not appear there. It belongs to MP.

http://www.saintspeterandpaulnh.org/

It is a really nice parish. Most of founding members came from Carpathian mountains over (100) years ago. Fr. Alexander Androsov and his family are most welcoming.

The current list of MP parishes in USA:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&ln=en

Since Canada has been mentioned, MP keeps the similar status for the parishes there:
http://www.orthodoxcanada.net/


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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2009, 01:23:29 AM »

The parish in Saginaw, MI did not completely dissapear, it merged with another parish of UOC-USA, Holy Trinity, located in Dearborn, MI. But the facilities of Holy Trinity in Dearborn remained used, not in Saginaw. While I never visited the parish personally, the references / impressions were good.

As for the original list, St. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Manchester, NH, did not appear there. It belongs to MP.

http://www.saintspeterandpaulnh.org/

It is a really nice parish. Most of founding members came from Carpathian mountains over (100) years ago. Fr. Alexander Androsov and his family are most welcoming.

The current list of MP parishes in USA:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&ln=en

Since Canada has been mentioned, MP keeps the similar status for the parishes there:
http://www.orthodoxcanada.net/


I'm going to St. Barbara's Friday for Presanctified...it's been a year since I was last there....the iconography is stunning!
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2009, 01:44:18 AM »


I'm going to St. Barbara's Friday for Presanctified...it's been a year since I was last there....the iconography is stunning!

The current rector, Fr. Sergey Kipriyanovich did a lot of missionary activities during his services in New York. Later he was one of the very few Orthodox priests in Mongolia. Possibly even the only one.
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2009, 01:59:34 AM »


Esteban, thank you very much for an excellent research! Great job!


That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.

Actually, #4 is still there:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&id=2227&ln=en
http://www.russiansobor.org/

#16 and #25 look like house chapels or home churches. A noble intent with sustainability concerns.

As for #30, economy in Ohio suffers for decades, unfortunately. Many people moved out.
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2009, 02:05:01 AM »


I'm going to St. Barbara's Friday for Presanctified...it's been a year since I was last there....the iconography is stunning!

The current rector, Fr. Sergey Kipriyanovich did a lot of missionary activities during his services in New York. Later he was one of the very few Orthodox priests in Mongolia. Possibly even the only one.

He heard my confession last year....I really like him alot....I wish I visited more but it is a rougher area of town....
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2009, 08:37:59 PM »

Esteban, thank you very much for an excellent research! Great job!

Many thanks!


Boy, you can tell it was 2 a.m--I've even been to that Church! Roll Eyes Thanks for the correction.

The parish in Saginaw, MI did not completely dissapear, it merged with another parish of UOC-USA, Holy Trinity, located in Dearborn, MI. But the facilities of Holy Trinity in Dearborn remained used, not in Saginaw. While I never visited the parish personally, the references / impressions were good.

Very interesting! I wonder if any remaining parishioners actually went over, or whether this was only a merger of assets and such--after all, the drive from Saginaw to Dearborn is somewhere close to 2 hours. And of course, the question of how it came to be under the Ukrainians in light of the provisions of the "Tomos" remains.

As for the original list, St. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Manchester, NH, did not appear there. It belongs to MP.

Actually, it's #42 (HHGTG alert!) in the list of Patriarchal parishes in the "Tomos."

Thanks for all the info!
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2009, 11:49:29 PM »

Esteban, thank you very much!

Sorry for my mistake regarding the parish in Manchester, NH.
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2009, 01:26:53 AM »


Esteban, thank you very much for an excellent research! Great job!


That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.

Actually, #4 is still there:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&id=2227&ln=en
http://www.russiansobor.org/

#16 and #25 look like house chapels or home churches. A noble intent with sustainability concerns.

As for #30, economy in Ohio suffers for decades, unfortunately. Many people moved out.

I sang Liturgy at St. Nick's for their feastday last year (and confessed to Fr. Andrei - he's young only 34 or 35 - nice priest).
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 09:45:36 PM »

I sang Liturgy at St. Nick's for their feastday last year (and confessed to Fr. Andrei - he's young only 34 or 35 - nice priest).

Nice! This is great that we are getting more and more young excellent clergy in various jurisdictions.
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« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2009, 09:17:32 AM »

Quote
Does anyone know what is the status of ROCA vis-a-vis the RP parishes and vis-a-vis the OCA?

They have different status. OCA is autocephalous, while ROCA (MP) is autonomous.

An autocephalous church is an independent church, ruled by it's own First Hierarch.

An autonomous church is a church ruled by an autocephalous church, and governed by it's own First Hierarch.

We could say an autocephalous church is like a country, while an autonomous church is like a province of a country. In this way, OCA would be seen as a country, while ROCOR (MP) could be seen as a province of the Moscow Patriarchate.



 
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« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2009, 10:41:37 AM »

With respect to the question above about OCA and ROCOR merging one coming under the other or vis versa, given certain elements of +Jonah's sermon of the unity of the Church in Amercia, it makes me wonder if during his recent meeting with the Patriarch there were some discussions on this topic.  In one place of his sermon he seemed open to the idea of the various american jurisdicions just sort of meeting together, drawing up a new administrative structure for the American Church, a new pan american synod, and then effectively just abandoning the previous jurisdictional structures taking care to preserve and support the various heritages served within the new jurisdictional structure. At least that is the impression I got.

It would certainly make sense for ROCOR and OCA to be united being daughters of the same mother on the same shores. As for the calendar issue, I can't speak for all, I do know, at least within my own parish and diocese there are a sizable number who would welcome a return to the old calendar. I know I would. I suppose bishops or even parishes might be left to use whichever calendar they were used to/preferred.

Then he could relinquish the leadership of the OCA to become the new bishop of the Diocese of the South as was originally intended.  Then the new synod can elect a new Metropolitan...of course it could turn  out to be +Jonah again, but it needn't.  We all need dreams I suppose.
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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2009, 03:24:08 PM »

Just occurred to me that no one had answered the original question. I think that Mark Stokoe of the Orthodox Christians for Accountability has but I cannot find the entry. In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2009, 03:44:31 PM »

With respect to the question above about OCA and ROCOR merging one coming under the other or vis versa, given certain elements of +Jonah's sermon of the unity of the Church in Amercia, it makes me wonder if during his recent meeting with the Patriarch there were some discussions on this topic.  In one place of his sermon he seemed open to the idea of the various american jurisdicions just sort of meeting together, drawing up a new administrative structure for the American Church, a new pan american synod, and then effectively just abandoning the previous jurisdictional structures taking care to preserve and support the various heritages served within the new jurisdictional structure. At least that is the impression I got.

It would certainly make sense for ROCOR and OCA to be united being daughters of the same mother on the same shores. As for the calendar issue, I can't speak for all, I do know, at least within my own parish and diocese there are a sizable number who would welcome a return to the old calendar. I know I would. I suppose bishops or even parishes might be left to use whichever calendar they were used to/preferred.

Then he could relinquish the leadership of the OCA to become the new bishop of the Diocese of the South as was originally intended.  Then the new synod can elect a new Metropolitan...of course it could turn  out to be +Jonah again, but it needn't.  We all need dreams I suppose.

I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want my hopes to rewrite reality.

It would be nice if ROCOR and the Patriarchal parishes could be united and folded into the OCA as a Russian diocese like the Albanian Diocese, the Romanian Diocese and the Bulgarian Diocese.  The Russo-centric parishes could be taken care of.  A Carpatho-Russian Diocese, and a Ukrainian (if there are enough, or if enough Ukrainians would join).  Then the white bread parishes that are left could be organized: and of course the Russian WRO should have their own.  And while I am dreaming, Alaska should be formed into a Amerindian Diocese.

Having everyone in the Holy Synod, it can move/grow to the rule of one bishop per city.

Quote
Does anyone know what is the status of ROCA vis-a-vis the RP parishes and vis-a-vis the OCA?

They have different status. OCA is autocephalous, while ROCA (MP) is autonomous.

An autocephalous church is an independent church, ruled by it's own First Hierarch.

An autonomous church is a church ruled by an autocephalous church, and governed by it's own First Hierarch.

We could say an autocephalous church is like a country, while an autonomous church is like a province of a country. In this way, OCA would be seen as a country, while ROCOR (MP) could be seen as a province of the Moscow Patriarchate.
I'm aware of their status, just how they get along.

According to the Tomos, Russia will not release any parish to anyone but the OCA.  Where does that leave ROCOR in the canonical scheme of things betweeen the OCA and Russia?

Basically, how is everyone grandfathered in?
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2009, 03:46:19 PM »

Just occurred to me that no one had answered the original question. I think that Mark Stokoe of the Orthodox Christians for Accountability has but I cannot find the entry. In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

at last Smiley thanks!

Is Metropolitan Jonah commemorated together with diocesan Bishop in any other jurisdiction?
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2009, 03:48:47 PM »

In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.
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« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2009, 03:53:08 PM »

In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.

Or trouble maker? Tongue

There seems to be no complaint with all the involved hierarchs and faithful.  Unlike a certain primus refusing to recognize the canonical hiearchy in a certain area outside his jurisdiction.
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« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2009, 06:10:17 PM »

In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.

Or trouble maker? Tongue

LOL.  Maybe Wink

Of course, your comment is ironic considering your follow-up, which (yet again) brings up an issue (read: dead horse) not related to this particular discussion:

There seems to be no complaint with all the involved hierarchs and faithful.  Unlike a certain primus refusing to recognize the canonical hiearchy in a certain area outside his jurisdiction.

Who is trying to cause trouble now? :p
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« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2009, 07:45:01 PM »


It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.

You forget that the heads of the autocephalous churches commemorate each other without submitting to them.
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« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2009, 08:58:20 PM »

"It would certainly make sense for ROCOR and OCA to be united being daughters of the same mother on the same shores."

ROCOR does not view the MP as her mother church. The reunification was promoted as "the reunification of the two parts of the Russian church." This point was crucial.  Read part II here:

www.synod.com/synod/engdocuments/enop_pastoralappeal.html

ROCOR's official position is her mother is the historic Russian Church.

This does not mean something can't be worked out with the OCA. The calandar issue would need to be resolved, though.
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« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2009, 09:05:40 PM »


It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.

You forget that the heads of the autocephalous churches commemorate each other without submitting to them.

I forget not; They do indeed in a way submit to them, and to the communion of the Church.  However, it is the exception that proves the rule: there is a specific protocol for commemorations only used by the heads of the Autocephalous Churches; for everyone else, it is "commemorate your bishop; if he is there, he commemorates the president of his synod, and the other clergy commemorate him."
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« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2009, 09:21:54 PM »

ialmisry the new ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, it does not have an independent status.

ROCOR parishes are Patriarchal parishes, headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and all russia. The transfering of patriarchal parishes to OCA is not allowed by the TOMOS, but many things explicitly forbidden by it, happen.

For instance, according to the TOMOS, some areas of the Americas, like Mexico, are territory of the Moscow Patriarchate, and only patriarchal churches should be established. In violation to the TOMOS OCA appointed an episcopacy to Mexico, and established parishes there.

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« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2009, 12:12:20 AM »

ialmisry the new ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, it does not have an independent status.

ROCOR parishes are Patriarchal parishes, headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and all russia,

My understanding (Father Ambrose, please illuminate) that ROCOR is autonomous.  It would make sense if their parishes were consolidated with the PP, but I think there autonomy as it stands and the OCA Tomos prevents that.  ROCOR has their own bishops and are not under the PP bishop at St. Nicholas.

Quote
The transfering of patriarchal parishes to OCA is not allowed by the TOMOS, but many things explicitly forbidden by it, happen.

For instance, according to the TOMOS, some areas of the Americas, like Mexico, are territory of the Moscow Patriarchate, and only patriarchal churches should be established. In violation to the TOMOS OCA appointed an episcopacy to Mexico, and established parishes there.

I'd have to look at the Tomos again (too tired now) but as I recall, it wasn't that the PP couldn't go to the OCA, just that they couldn't be forced to, and would not be released to anyone else but the OCA.  I don't recall anything about Mexico.
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« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2009, 03:52:17 AM »

ialmisry the new ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, it does not have an independent status.

ROCOR parishes are Patriarchal parishes, headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and all russia,

My understanding (Father Ambrose, please illuminate) that ROCOR is autonomous.  It would make sense if their parishes were consolidated with the PP, but I think there autonomy as it stands and the OCA Tomos prevents that.  ROCOR has their own bishops and are not under the PP bishop at St. Nicholas.

Quote
The transfering of patriarchal parishes to OCA is not allowed by the TOMOS, but many things explicitly forbidden by it, happen.

For instance, according to the TOMOS, some areas of the Americas, like Mexico, are territory of the Moscow Patriarchate, and only patriarchal churches should be established. In violation to the TOMOS OCA appointed an episcopacy to Mexico, and established parishes there.

I'd have to look at the Tomos again (too tired now) but as I recall, it wasn't that the PP couldn't go to the OCA, just that they couldn't be forced to, and would not be released to anyone else but the OCA.   I don't recall anything about Mexico.

This is correct.

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« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2009, 07:25:23 AM »

ROCOR parishes are not Patriarchial parishes.  This is a statement from the Synod explaining the details:

"According to the “Act on Canonical Communion,” the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is “self-governing in pastoral, educational, administrative, management, property and civil matters” (par. 2). No decrees of the Synod of Bishops or Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are subject to the review or confirmation of the Holy Synod or Council of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, except those of a canonical nature.  Consequently, there can be no discussion of the “subjugation” of one side to another, or of the self-dissolution of the Russian Church Abroad. Quite the opposite, the “Act on Canonical Communion” confirms the future canonical status of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia—by recognizing that she “in the historically-developed complement of the dioceses, parishes, monasteries, brotherhoods and other ecclesiastical establishment, continues to be an inseparable, self-governing part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church” as she always deemed herself to be.  The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, in her fullness, thus preserves her existence and self-governing status. She will continue to have her own First Hierarch, her own Council of Bishops, her own Synod of Bishops, her own Regulations, and will govern herself with complete independence."

http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2006/9enaktexplanantion.html
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« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2009, 11:29:56 AM »

I finally found Mark Stokoe's explanation:

"The matter is really quite simple regarding the commemoration of +Jonah by the MP. It is standard practice for representational churches under the omphor of an extra-territorial Patriarchate ( such as the Russian parish in Athens, or the Antiochian parish in Moscow) to commemorate the name of their Patriarch, and then the head of the local autocephalous church in whose jurisidiction they live, then their immediate Bishop. In the case of St. Nicholas parish in NYC, the representational church of the MP inthe US and for the UN, it was a demonstration of good order that the deacon commemorated first Patriarch Kirill, then Jonah, then Mercurios. First the Patriarch, then the head of the local church ( Jonah) and then their bishop... In short, it was nothing more, or less, than an affirmation of the autocephalous status of the OCA by the Russian Church. Hope this helps."
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« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2009, 12:46:56 PM »

In the Act of Canonical Communion we read:

"1. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, ... remains an indissoluble, self-governing part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church."

Comment: In that document, the Moscow Patriarchate is referred to as Local Russian Orthodox Church.

"4. The First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is elected by her Council of Bishops. This election is confirmed, in accordance with the norms of Canon Law, by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church."

Comment: Here it is made clear that the Patriarch of Moscow has the authority to approve or reject the appointment of the First Hiearch of ROCOR. In short, the First Hiearch of the ROCOR is under the authority of the Patriarch of Moscow

"6. Decisions on the establishment or liquidation of dioceses of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are made by her Council of Bishops in agreement with the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church."

Comment: The Patriarch of Moscow is in control of the administration of ROCOR, main administrative measures, such as the above mentioned, have to be previously discussed with him, and he takes the final decision.

"7. The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are elected by her Council of Bishops or, in cases foreseen by the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, by the Synod of Bishops. Such elections are confirmed in accordance with canonical norms by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church."

Comment: It is again, stressed out, that the Patriarch of Moscow is the ultimate authority of ROCOR,  the ROCOR bishops are under his control, and he has the faculty to accept or reject the appointment of Bishops of ROCOR.

"8. The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are members of the Local Council and Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church...."

Comment: By this, it is stressed out that the Bishops of ROCOR constitute their own local council, but do not constitute a separate ecclesiastical organization, they remain an integral part of the Council of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"10. Decisions of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church extend to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.........."

Comment: This means the ROCOR is subject to the Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"11. Appeals on decisions of the supreme ecclesiastical court of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are directed to the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia."

"12. Amendments to the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia by her supreme legislative authority are subject to the confirmation of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in such case as these changes bear a canonical character."

Comment: In this way, the Patriarch of Moscow is given full authority over ROCOR, and acts as it's First Hiearch. ROCOR became totally under his direct control. Nothing can be done in ROCOR without the permission and direct order of the Patriarch of Moscow.

"Acts issued previously which preclude the fullness of canonical communion are hereby deemed invalid or obsolete. "

By this statment, ROCOR recants all it's previous statements and condemnation of the Moscow Patriarchate, and gives away it's freedom of speech. 

According to the Acto fo Canonical Communion ROCOR loses it's independence and passes under the full control of the Moscow Patriarchate as an integral part of it. Even though ROCOR is self governing, all it's decisions have to be reviewed, discussed, censored and approved by the Patriarch of Moscow.

The pastoral and educational activities of ROCOR are under close scrutiny of the Moscow Patriarchate, who constantly sends representatives, in the form of exchange priests, clergy, seminarians, visiting professors, and the like.

Church property of ROCOR is placed under the name of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate).

It is clear by this and similar documents, that ROCOR under the Moscow Patriarchate is under total control and has lost all authority and freedom.  There was no union, but a swallowing up of a part of ROCOR by the totalitarian Moscow Patriarchate.



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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2009, 07:06:34 AM »

Quote
3. The following are excluded from autocephaly on the territory of North America:....
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
7. Resurrection Church, Chicago, State of Illinois...

I think the parish in Chicago was folded when the priest was recalled back to Russia to help with the demand there after the collapse of the Soviet Union. 

Rather ironic, now that I notice, that the folded Church comes right after the parish that received the new Metropolitan into Orthodoxy.

I went to a school in a rather, shall we say, less visited part of town (less visited by "European Americans"), today.  As I was on the bus going down, I passed by 1457 N. California.  The building, unmistakably, once was an Orthodox Church: it has a copper copula with a three bar cross on it. The building must have been something in its day, its sanctuary facing East, but its entrance looking out over Humboldt Park, a rather large expanse that in the previous century was upkept green with a large, tended lake in the middle, the park being the center of what was a premier neighborhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt_Park,_Chicago
Quote
The park was named for Alexander von Humboldt, a German naturalist. William Le Baron Jenney began developing the park in the 1870s, molding a flat prairie landscape into a "pleasure ground" with horse trails and a pair of lagoons. The park opened to the public in 1877, but landscape architects such as Jens Jensen made significant additions to the park over the next few decades. Between 1905 and 1920, Jensen connected the two lagoons with a river, planted a rose garden, and built a fieldhouse, boathouse, and music pavilion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt_Park_(Chicago_park)
The Church turns into another, attached, building in the back, which has the words "Humboldt Park Rectory" in stone across its side.  There is an announcement board in front, but the identification has been defaced.  In front is a statue, of a rather strange character (looks like a thin crusty the clown, without make up).  The pedestal is either defaced or weathered, so if he is identified, I can't make it out.

You can see, through the large fromt window, that probably was stained glass once (like the tower window), that there was a sanctuary there.  It now has a spiral staircase going up, and other residential accoutrements.  Because it seems that the building has been converted into a residential spot.  A sign reads "Alger Apts."  A google search came up with a residence listed as "The Church."  How chic.

Can anyone confirm that this was indeed the "Resurrection Church," now dead but hopefully living on in Holy Mother Russia?  (I seem to recall that the iconostasis of Resurrection was shipped back to Russia for a restored parish there).  Whose corpse is now not revered as a relic and turned into a store front Church (as, for instance, the Swedish Lutheran church (with the stone Swedish inscriptions) has been down the street), but rather in a sense mocked as so many Churches during the Bolshevik yoke in the Russian Homeland?   

Yes, these dead dry bones can live, but it is still hard to see them strewn on the valley. Or the neglected city park.
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2009, 07:46:20 AM »

ialmisry the new ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, it does not have an independent status.

ROCOR parishes are Patriarchal parishes, headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and all russia,

My understanding (Father Ambrose, please illuminate) that ROCOR is autonomous. 


The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad does not have the status of an autonomous Church (although many people assume so) but it has the lesser status of a self-governing Church.

We share this status of a self-governing Church with

1. the Church of Estonia

2. the Church of Moldova

3. the Church of Latvia

4. the Church of the Ukraine  (self-governing but with some elements
    of an autonomous Church.)


The provisions which govern Self-Governing Churches of the Church of Russia are given in Chapter VIII of the Ustav (in Russian.) See

http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/133132.html

 
As an example of an autonomous Church (in contrast to a self-governing Church) we can refer to the Church of Japan.


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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2009, 08:01:42 AM »

ialmisry the new ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, it does not have an independent status.

ROCOR parishes are Patriarchal parishes, headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and all russia,

My understanding (Father Ambrose, please illuminate) that ROCOR is autonomous. 


The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad does not have the status of an autonomous Church (although many people assume so) but it has the lesser status of a self-governing Church.

We share this status of a self-governing Church with

1. the Church of Estonia

2. the Church of Moldova

3. the Church of Latvia

4. the Church of the Ukraine  (self-governing but with some elements
    of an autonomous Church.)


The provisions which govern Self-Governing Churches of the Church of Russia are given in Chapter VIII of the Ustav (in Russian.) See

http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/133132.html

 
As an example of an autonomous Church (in contrast to a self-governing Church) we can refer to the Church of Japan.




It would seem the Patriarchal Parishes have the even lesser status of not even being self governing.

The distinction between autonomy and self rule is interesting in view of the goings on in the self/sole-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.
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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2009, 01:46:29 PM »

In the Act of Canonical Communion we read:

"1. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, ... remains an indissoluble, self-governing part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church."

Comment: In that document, the Moscow Patriarchate is referred to as Local Russian Orthodox Church.

You are not correct.  ROCOR was always a part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church, even when it was not in communion with the MP.   Aside from the volumes of ROCOR statements which says exactly that, please note the word "REMAINS" in your snip above.

Quote
"4. The First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is elected by her Council of Bishops. This election is confirmed, in accordance with the norms of Canon Law, by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church."

Comment: Here it is made clear that the Patriarch of Moscow has the authority to approve or reject the appointment of the First Hiearch of ROCOR. In short, the First Hiearch of the ROCOR is under the authority of the Patriarch of Moscow

Here is the complete act.   One gets a different picture as opposed to your conclusions when the act is read whole:

We, the humble Alexy II, by God's mercy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, jointly with the Eminent Members of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, having gathered at a meeting of the Holy Synod (date) in the God-preserved city of Moscow; and the humble Laurus, Metropolitan of Eastern America and New York, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, jointly with the Eminent Bishops, members of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, having gathered (time, place);

Being guided by the effort towards reestablishing blessed peace, Divinely-decreed love, and brotherly unity in the common work in the harvest-fields of God within the Fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church and her faithful in the Fatherland and abroad, taking into consideration the ecclesiastical life of the Russian diaspora outside the canonical borders of the Moscow Patriarchate, as dictated by history;

Taking into account that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia performs its service on the territories of many nations;

By this Act declare:

1. That the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, conducting its salvific service in the dioceses, parishes, monasteries, brotherhoods, and other ecclesiastical bodies that were formed through history, remains an indissoluble, self-governing part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church.

2. That the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is independent in pastoral, educational, administrative, management, property, and civil matters, existing at the same time in canonical unity with the Fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church.

3. The supreme ecclesiastical, legislative, administrative, judicial and controlling authority in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is her Council of Bishops, convened by her Primate (First Hierarch), in accordance with the Regulations [ Polozheniye ] of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.

4. The First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is elected by her Council of Bishops. This election is confirmed, in accordance with the norms of Canon Law, by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

5. The name of the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church and the name of the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are commemorated during divine services in all churches of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia before the name of the ruling bishop in the prescribed order.

6. Decisions on the establishment or liquidation of dioceses of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are made by her Council of Bishops in agreement with the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

7. The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are elected by her Council of Bishops or, in cases foreseen by the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, by the Synod of Bishops. Such elections are confirmed in accordance with canonical norms by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

8. The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are members of the Local Council [ Pomestny Sobor ] and Council of Bishops [ Arkhiereiskij Sobor ] of the Russian Orthodox Church and also participate in the meetings of the Holy Synod in the prescribed order. Representatives of the clergy and laity of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia participate in the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church in the established manner.

9. The supreme instances of ecclesiastical authority for the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are the Local Council and the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church.

10. Decisions of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church extend to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia with consideration of the particularities described by the present Act, by the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and by the legislation of the nations in which she performs her ministry.

11. Appeals on decisions of the supreme ecclesiastical court of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia are directed to the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

12. Amendments to the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia by her supreme legislative authority are subject to the confirmation of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in such case as these changes bear a canonical character.

13. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia receives her holy myrrh from the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

By this Act, canonical communion within the Local Russian Orthodox Church is hereby restored.

Acts issued previously which preclude the fullness of canonical communion are hereby deemed invalid or obsolete.

The reestablishment of canonical communion will serve, God willing, towards the strengthening of the unity of the Church of Christ, of her witness in the contemporary world, promoting the fulfillment of the will of the Lord to “gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad” (John 11:52).

Let us bring thanks to All-Merciful God, Who through His omnipotent hand directed us to the path of healing the wounds of division and led us to the desired unity of the Russian Church in the homeland and abroad, to the glory of His Holy Name and to the good of His Holy Church and Her faithful flock. Through the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, may the Lord grant His blessing to the One Russian Church and Her flock both in the fatherland and in the diaspora.

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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2009, 07:03:00 PM »



Quote
You are not correct.  ROCOR was always a part of the Local Russian Orthodox Church,

I didn't say otherwise, ROCOR remains part of the True Local Russian Orthodox Church.

The Moscow Patriarchate is not the Local Russian Orthodox Church, it is just a government institution founded by the revolutionary government, and which is impossible to call a Church.

Quote
even when it was not in communion with the MP.

Not only is ROCOR not in communion with the MP, She has never recognized it, and has always declared the election of it's Patriarchs (Sergius, Pimen, Alexis I, Alexis II...) as arbitrary acts of the government, and all it's decisions as void, and having no force.

And the more, ROCOR has declared the MP as a heretical organization several times. For instance, when Nikita Krushev ordered the MP to enter in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, the Synod of Bishops issued a resolution in which the MP is condemned as follows: "By being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, the Moscow Patriarchate has become part of it's heresies".

Quote
Aside from the volumes of ROCOR statements which says exactly that, please note the word "REMAINS" in your snip above.

Volumes of statements and Synodical resolutions of ROCOR, clearly condemn the Moscow Patriarchate, and it's unorthodox preaching and practices.

ROCOR has always remained one with the Russian True Orthodox Church (Catacomb Church), and She has not only condemned, but exorcised the Moscow Patriarchate, and all the collaborators of the revolutionary Government. All this was done during the last All Russian Synod, headed by Patriarch Tikhon, and it remains in full force.

The new ROCOR under MP usurps the name, but it is definitely not ROCOR, definitely definitely not ROCOR, just like MP today usurps the name and is definitely not MP, definitely definitely not MP.

In the same perspective, we see how the Roman Catholic Church uses the name of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and this does not correspond to the truth. We know that just like the MP and it's new acquisition, ROCOR under Met Hilarion, they remain false churches, denying Christ, preaching heresy, and persecuting the Church of Christ.

There is a strange phenomena, people are quick to reject uniats, even when some communities do things the orthodox way, even the creed is said correctly, the only noticeable thing is they commemorate the pope, while people are quick to accept the MP as a valid orthodox church despite their open persecution of Russian Churches that do not recognize them, their preaching of heresies, distortion of liturgics and prayers, and their cynical preaching of political propaganda.




 



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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2009, 09:19:35 PM »

And the more, ROCOR has declared the MP as a heretical organization several times. For instance, when Nikita Krushev ordered the MP to enter in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, the Synod of Bishops issued a resolution in which the MP is condemned as follows: "By being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, the Moscow Patriarchate has become part of it's heresies".

Your credibility is close to zero, Pravoslav09. Show us proof that the MP is, or has ever been, in communion with the Roman Catholic church during the Soviet period or beyond.
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2009, 10:27:11 PM »

Your credibility is close to zero, Pravoslav09. Show us proof that the MP is, or has ever been, in communion with the Roman Catholic church during the Soviet period or beyond.

If you know russian, the answer is in archive of the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate and other official documents.

The resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate dated December 19 1969, established communion with the Roman Catholic Church. 

The information below can be found in the archive of the ROCOR publication "Orthodox Life":

In the resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR dated March 31, 1970 it is clearly stated stated "... By entering into communion with the heterodox, the Moscow Patriarchate ...becomes a partaker of their heresy"

The resolution of the MP was done under the iniciative of Metropolitan Nikodim Rotov, who was also a Roman Catholic Cardinal, and Patriarch Kirill Gundyaev (KGB agent Adamant?) was his cell attendant and one of his closest collaborators.


Libelous accusations removed  -PtA


During the enthronement of Patriarch Kirill, the main directors of Taizé were present, and applauded the election of their brother, with a long standing commitment to ecumenism.

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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2009, 10:39:16 PM »

Your credibility is close to zero, Pravoslav09. Show us proof that the MP is, or has ever been, in communion with the Roman Catholic church during the Soviet period or beyond.

If you know russian, the answer is in archive of the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate and other official documents.

The resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate dated December 19 1969, established communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

What really happened was that as a matter of extreme economy and charity it was decided to offer communion to the tiny number of Catholics (in fact wasn't it only to the Russian Catholics of the Byzantine Rite?)  living in the Soviet Union who had been cut out from their own Church for decades by the Communist regime.

However, as far as I know, this decsion was *never* implemented. One of the reasons was that Constantinople warned Moscow that communing Catholics could result in a breach on communion between the the two Patriarchates.

Quote


This information can be found in the archive of the publication "Orthodox Life" of ROCOR:

In the resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR dated March 31, 1970 it is clearly stated stated "... By entering into communion with the heterodox, the Moscow Patriarchate ...becomes a partaker of their heresy"

I suppose that one could say that what was proposed was "entering into communion" but I really think it is disingenuous to present it in that light when you know the facts as given above.
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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2009, 10:49:37 PM »

Your credibility is close to zero, Pravoslav09. Show us proof that the MP is, or has ever been, in communion with the Roman Catholic church during the Soviet period or beyond.
Libelous accusation removed  -PtA

Your credibility here just took a nosedive.
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2009, 10:52:18 PM »

For instance, according to the TOMOS, some areas of the Americas, like Mexico, are territory of the Moscow Patriarchate, and only patriarchal churches should be established. In violation to the TOMOS OCA appointed an episcopacy to Mexico, and established parishes there.

From the OCA's Tomos:
Article VII (and for the record Article V has no mention of Mexico)
The Patriarchate agrees that the Metropolia shall have exclusive jurisdiction of all parishes located in continental North America and Hawaii which now are or may hereafter become affiliated with the Metropolia except that which is mentioned in Article V, paragraph (1):

Article XI
The parties agree that neither of them now possesses or claims to have exclusive jurisdiction of the Orthodox faith in the continent of South and Central America where the canonical status quo is preserved.


Not sure if Mexico was to be defined as North America or Central America, but either way, your statement above is clearly incorrect.
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« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2009, 02:29:50 AM »


If according to the TOMOS, OCA has jurisdiction on continental North America, and Hawaii. What is the canonical basis for the existence of Patriarchal Churches and Episcopacy in that territory?

If that specific article you mentioned was in full force, then all Patriarchal churches, even those governed by the ROCOR under MP, should be under OCA, but there is jurisprudence*.

Jurisprudence: The interpretation of the law and legal dispositions, by the corresponding authority.

Even though Mexico is geographically part of North America, it was considered by the USSR as a key satelite country. The Soviet Government was very interested in positioning itself in Mexico, and the establishment of parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate, was an important part of its strategy.

The Mexican United States (Mexico) was also a socialist atheist nation, controlled by the Communist Party, and with strong ties with the USSR, it it's time, the Mexican President Calles, as part of what he called "process of de-fanatizing the nation" created his own Mexican Patriarchate, the Mexican Catholic Apostolic Church, lead by Patriarch Joaquim Perez y Budar. But it failed, because the pope created an intestine war, and people could not get used to the idea of having a church without the pope. 



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« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2009, 03:01:59 AM »

Your credibility is close to zero, Pravoslav09. Show us proof that the MP is, or has ever been, in communion with the Roman Catholic church during the Soviet period or beyond.

If you know russian, the answer is in archive of the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate and other official documents.

The resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate dated December 19 1969, established communion with the Roman Catholic Church. 

The information below can be found in the archive of the ROCOR publication "Orthodox Life":

In the resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR dated March 31, 1970 it is clearly stated stated "... By entering into communion with the heterodox, the Moscow Patriarchate ...becomes a partaker of their heresy"

The resolution of the MP was done under the iniciative of Metropolitan Nikodim Rotov, who was also a Roman Catholic Cardinal, and Patriarch Kirill Gundyaev (KGB agent Adamant?) was his cell attendant and one of his closest collaborators.


Libelous accusations removed  -PtA


During the enthronement of Patriarch Kirill, the main directors of Taizé were present, and applauded the election of their brother, with a long standing commitment to ecumenism.
Can you provide links to or the titles of any public documents that support any of the statements you just made above?
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« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2009, 07:35:43 AM »


If according to the TOMOS, OCA has jurisdiction on continental North America, and Hawaii. What is the canonical basis for the existence of Patriarchal Churches and Episcopacy in that territory?

If that specific article you mentioned was in full force, then all Patriarchal churches, even those governed by the ROCOR under MP, should be under OCA, but there is jurisprudence*.

Jurisprudence: The interpretation of the law and legal dispositions, by the corresponding authority.

Even though Mexico is geographically part of North America, it was considered by the USSR as a key satelite country. The Soviet Government was very interested in positioning itself in Mexico, and the establishment of parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate, was an important part of its strategy.

The Mexican United States (Mexico) was also a socialist atheist nation, controlled by the Communist Party, and with strong ties with the USSR, it it's time, the Mexican President Calles, as part of what he called "process of de-fanatizing the nation" created his own Mexican Patriarchate, the Mexican Catholic Apostolic Church, lead by Patriarch Joaquim Perez y Budar. But it failed, because the pope created an intestine war, and people could not get used to the idea of having a church without the pope. 





Not to derail thread, more, but PS09: since the Russian Church is such a subservient slave to the Vatican and in communion with her, can you explain why JP II wasn't allowed to set foot in Russia, when Pres. Putin had extended an invitation? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2009, 08:08:16 AM »

The MP had allowed Roman Catholics to come to communion but this decision was halted by the Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) date July 29, 1986,(see Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, No 9, 1986, page 7).

How can we accuse the MP of something they corrected?
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« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2009, 10:43:19 AM »

Christ is Risen!

If according to the TOMOS, OCA has jurisdiction on continental North America, and Hawaii. What is the canonical basis for the existence of Patriarchal Churches and Episcopacy in that territory?
What is the canonical basis of any metochia?

Quote
If that specific article you mentioned was in full force, then all Patriarchal churches, even those governed by the ROCOR under MP, should be under OCA, but there is jurisprudence*.

Jurisprudence: The interpretation of the law and legal dispositions, by the corresponding authority.

Even though Mexico is geographically part of North America, it was considered by the USSR as a key satelite country. The Soviet Government was very interested in positioning itself in Mexico, and the establishment of parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate, was an important part of its strategy.
Mexico has one parish, founded during the Brezhnev years.
http://mx.geocities.com/iglesiaortmex/bas
So it couldn't have been THAT interested.

Quote
The Mexican United States (Mexico) was also a socialist atheist nation, controlled by the Communist Party, and with strong ties with the USSR, it it's time, the Mexican President Calles, as part of what he called "process of de-fanatizing the nation" created his own Mexican Patriarchate, the Mexican Catholic Apostolic Church, lead by Patriarch Joaquim Perez y Budar. But it failed, because the pope created an intestine war, and people could not get used to the idea of having a church without the pope.

I don't want to know what an "intestine" war is.
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« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2009, 10:57:26 AM »


If

There's no 'if' involved. I provided the actual text of the Tomos--including the part in Article V where the MP & OCA agreed to except certain Patriarchal churches. I didn't quote the part about a titular bishop being assigned by the Patriarch to administer these parishes but it's easily found if you were interested in the facts. The fact that you ignore the actual text for baseless speculation would tend to indicate that that is not in fact the case--you have an agenda to push, regardless of the inconvenient facts which disprove it.
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« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2009, 11:30:30 AM »

The MP had allowed Roman Catholics to come to communion but this decision was halted by the Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) date July 29, 1986,(see Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, No 9, 1986, page 7).

How can we accuse the MP of something they corrected?

Libelous accusations removed


In the past five days, both Fr. Chris, our forum Admin, and I have asked you to provide sources to substantiate your accusations of recent heretical conduct by Patriarch Kyrill and the Moscow Patriarchate, yet all you have provided thus far--yes, Bright Week is over and the deadline past--is a web site that doesn’t appear to have been updated in thirteen years and two congratulatory letters from the WCC and the Taizé Brotherhood that speak nothing of the specific heretical activities that you have alleged.  Therefore, your accusatory posts are being removed and you are hereby placed on post moderation for the next 40 days for libel.  What this means is that every post you submit during your moderation must now be approved by an admin or moderator before it will appear on the forum.  If you think this action unfair, feel free to file an appeal with cleveland, the global moderator in charge of the Free-for-All boards.

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« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2009, 03:43:22 PM »

Your credibility is close to zero, Pravoslav09. Show us proof that the MP is, or has ever been, in communion with the Roman Catholic church during the Soviet period or beyond.

If you know russian, the answer is in archive of the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate and other official documents.

The resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate dated December 19 1969, established communion with the Roman Catholic Church. 

The information below can be found in the archive of the ROCOR publication "Orthodox Life":

In the resolutions of the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR dated March 31, 1970 it is clearly stated stated "... By entering into communion with the heterodox, the Moscow Patriarchate ...becomes a partaker of their heresy"

The resolution of the MP was done under the iniciative of Metropolitan Nikodim Rotov, who was also a Roman Catholic Cardinal, and Patriarch Kirill Gundyaev (KGB agent Adamant?) was his cell attendant and one of his closest collaborators.


Libelous accusations removed  -PtA


During the enthronement of Patriarch Kirill, the main directors of Taizé were present, and applauded the election of their brother, with a long standing commitment to ecumenism.


The MP had allowed Roman Catholics to come to communion but this decision was halted by the Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) date July 29, 1986,(see Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, No 9, 1986, page 7). How can we accuse the MP of something they corrected?

Libelous accusations removed  -PtA


Pravoslav09, what you've written above accuses a hierarch of heresy and constitutes libel if it cannot be verified.  You need to substantiate the above claims or face the consequences of irresponsible and potentially illegal action.  The way to avoid these consequences is to provide references from public documents--and they had better be good references--by the end of Bright Week.  Otherwise, your accusatory posts will be deleted and you will be placed on Post Moderation.

- PeterTheAleut, Moderator
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« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2009, 10:29:01 PM »

Christ is Risen!

On another thread, I came across a very strange definition of the EP of what is an autocephalous Church, which goes well beyond the issue of a few metochia:

Quote
+ PATRIARCHAL AND SYNODICALLY CANONICAL TOMOS

The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, November 13, 1924, concerning the declaration of the Orthodox Church in Poland as an Autocephalic Church.

+GREGORIOS VII, by the grace of God Archbishop of Constantinople -the New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch

The Holy Orthodox Church in the God-Protected Polish State, endowed with an autonomous system and administration and proving its firmness in faith, zealousness by charitable works has requested our Holy Apostolic and Ecumenical Patriarchal See to bless and confirm its autocephalous administrative system, considering that in the new circumstances of political life, only such a system can satisfy and guarantee its needs.... We and our Holy Metropolitans, Our beloved brothers and co-workers in the Holy Spirit, considered it our obligation to give ear to the request presented to Us by the Holy Orthodox Church in Poland and to give Our blessing and approval to its autocephalous and independent administration.

As a consequence of this conciliar decision, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, We have decided: to recognize an autocephalic administration for the Orthodox Church in Poland and give our blessings to this,...To preserve and canonically maintain united with Our Holy Apostolic Ecumenical Patriarchal See, as well as with all other Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, We mention here the obligations which every Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland will have: ie...In addition to this we decree, that the Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Church in Poland must obtain its Holy Myrh (oil) from Our Great Christian Church.
In the year of Our Lord 1924, November 13th....

The Patriarch of Constantinople, +GREGORIOS VII (Approved).
The Metropolitan of Kiza, +KALYNYK
The Metropolitan of Sardia and Pisidia, +HERMAN
The Metropolitan of Nicea, BASIL
The Metropolitan of Chaldea, +JOAKIM
The Metropolitan of Philadelphia, +PHOTIUS
The Metropolitan of Derkos, +CONSTANTINE
The Metropolitan of Syliria, +EUGENE
The Metropolitan of Brus, +NICODEMOUS
The Metropolitan of Rodopolia, +CYRIL
The Metropolitan of the Princes Islands, +AHAFANAHEL
The Metropolitan of Neocesarea, +AMBROSIOS
The Metropolitan of Anea, +THOMAS

According to the French translation from the original Greek, Translator, Konstantinidis.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate, November 13, 1924

Chancellor HERMAN, Metropolitan of Sardia
http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=146797
(the page goes on to argue for the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church).
Btw, does Mike or Michal or any Polish Orthodox have a copy of the REAL Tomos of autocephaly?  (the one the PoM issued?).  Does the Church of Poland use this as its basis of autocephaly, or Moscow's Tomos?

Get his chrism from the EP?  How is he autocephalous then?
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« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2009, 10:38:27 PM »

Get his chrism from the EP?  How is he autocephalous then?

Getting myrrh has nothing to do with Autocephaly; yes, non-Autocephalous churches cannot get their myrrh from outside their Church/Patriarchate, and Autocephalous churches can consecrate their own, but it's not a definition of whether one is or is not autocephalous, which has to do (as with most things of Church governance) with hierarchs (election, deposition, etc.).
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« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2009, 12:18:51 AM »

Get his chrism from the EP?  How is he autocephalous then?

Getting myrrh has nothing to do with Autocephaly; yes, non-Autocephalous churches cannot get their myrrh from outside their Church/Patriarchate, and Autocephalous churches can consecrate their own, but it's not a definition of whether one is or is not autocephalous, which has to do (as with most things of Church governance) with hierarchs (election, deposition, etc.).
Technically speaking, any bishop can bless Chrism, but that has become a perogative of the primate of the Church, per Apostolic Canon 36, the same reasoning that links the bishops into a syonod that elects, deposes etc. bishops and elects primates.

Quote
During the early centuries of Christianity, a firm tradition existed in the Church in which the Holy Chrism was sanctified only by the bishops of the Church and not by the presbyters (priests).  At that time, there were no distinctions among bishops, that is among bishops of dioceses and metropolitanate bishops of greater church districts. As the years passed, however, the common right of all bishops was eventually transferred to the bishops of churches with greater status, that is, to the Patriarchs, and finally to the Ecumenical Patriarch, who today is able to transmit this right to the heads of local Orthodox churches. In other words, even though each bishop has the right to sanctify the Holy Chrism by his status as bishop, he is not permitted by canon law to do so. It appears that there are three reasons that restrict the right of sanctifying the Holy Chrism to the Ecumenical Patriarch. These reasons include: a) the scarcity of the materials and the difficulty for each bishop to prepare the Holy Chrism, b) the constant increase of dependence of the diocese on the head of the greater church and district, and c) the special position that the Ecumenical Patriarchate received through the centuries in relation to the other patriarchates of the East and that expresses the spiritual bond between the Church of Constantinople and the local churches of the people who received the Christian faith from its missionaries.

In reality, this exclusive right to sanctify the Holy Chrism of the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean that local churches are dependent and subordinate to Constantinople. This act of receiving the Holy Chrism from the Ecumenical Patriarchate is a tangible and visible sign of the amity and bond of local churches, patriarchates, and autocephalous churches with the Ecumenical Patriarchate.† It is a necessary sign, not a sign of superiority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church, but an existing visible sign of unity among the cluster of local Orthodox churches. Nevertheless, in the Orthodox Church, the Holy Chrism, in addition to being sanctified in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is sanctified in the contemporary patriarchates of Moscow, Belgrade, and Bucharest.


http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8420

This restriction to the EP is an innovation.
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« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2009, 01:23:03 AM »

Christ is Risen!

......................

 Grin  You're clever!  How'd you manage to change the subject line and include your name?  Anyways I've always been told that putting names in subject lines was very bad netiquette.   Grin Unless it is someone of major importance such as Obama or Putin.  Mybe it's only a British thing?
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« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2009, 02:15:18 AM »

This restriction to the EP is an innovation.
National Churches such as the Church of Greece are an innovation. The Unity of the Church is not an innovation.
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« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2009, 07:09:57 AM »

Christ is Risen!
This restriction to the EP is an innovation.
National Churches such as the Church of Greece are an innovation.

Really?  That's odd. As Armenia, the world's oldest Christian nation, has one (hierarchy consolidated 301, autocephalous 371).

His All Holiness also contradicts you in his "Tomos of Autocephaly" for Poland.  See the link above.

Quote
The Unity of the Church is not an innovation.

But deriving that unity from a man other than Christ is.  Or has Vatican I been declared an Orthodox council?
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« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2009, 07:53:44 AM »

Quote
The Unity of the Church is not an innovation.

But deriving that unity from a man other than Christ is. 
Our Chrism receives it's Power from Christ- where does yours receive it from?
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« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2009, 10:40:28 AM »

Quote
The Unity of the Church is not an innovation.

But deriving that unity from a man other than Christ is. 
Our Chrism receives it's Power from Christ- where does yours receive it from?

From Christ.

But not by the hand of his All Holiness.
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« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2009, 09:37:41 PM »



Christ Is Risen!

Pravoslav09,

What Peter has requested was done with my approval.

We are not here to persecute you. However, you have alleged that the Patriarch of Moscow
has:


Quote
Libelous accusations removed  -PtA

Please provide proof of these assertions, as these are the first I have heard of them. If you have the proof, then share it with the rest of us so that we can be educated.

However, if you cannot substantiate these statements, then either retract them or face the consequences of such conduct against a Hierarch of the Body of Christ.

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« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2009, 09:51:48 PM »

I just remembered this thread
"Serbian Orthodox Church in Romania."
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8314.0.html

So it does that mean that Romania isn't autocephalous, as those who would read that into the existence of the Patriarchal Parishes in America?

Speaking of Romania, since, according to the titles ex officio, Pat. Daniel is locum tenens of the see of Caesarea in Cappodocia, does that mean that the EP is not autocephalous? Shocked Roll Eyes
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« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2009, 10:18:09 PM »

Thank you for your words Father Chris, your explanation has been very helpful, and I totally agree with you.

There is an old saying "The way you ask for things determins what you'll receive"

Here are some things to prove what I posted for the enlightment of others:

I don't have much online information in english, one of the few things I could find is this wonderful online book:

http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/index.html

The Chapters "Church in Distress" and "PROFANATION OF HOLY MYSTERIES" provide information about what I mentioned above.

Quote from the Chapter "Church in Distress":

"The practice of offering Communion to the heterodox (see the Chapter on the Profanation of Holy Mysteries) is reaching epidemic proportion in the MP. This may be illustrated by the state of affairs in the Kaliningrad vicariate of the MP which is one of the ecumenical establishments and is ruled by Bishop Panteleimon (Kutov), a subordinate of Metropolitan Kirill (Gundyaev). In connection with the building project (still only a project, although some donations have already been collected a long time ago) for a Cathedral in the former Koenigsberg (now Kaliningrad), local parishioners hope that "this will be an Orthodox church not only by its name. Unfortunately, Bishop Panteleimon's ecumenical views leave little hope that in the new Cathedral things will be any different from what they are now in the patriarchal churches of the Kaliningrad area,  where Orthodox people are offered Communion from one chalice with heretics. Bishop Panteleimon himself felt no embarrassment when he declared that "Catholics ...partook of Communion in our churches, and the priests offered prayers for them" [374]*. "

*[374] Vedomosti Pravoslavnoi zhizni (News of Church Life), No. 2/12, 1996. Quoted from Orthodox Russia, No. 1553, 15/28 Feb. 1996, p. 12.


Concerning Patriarch Kirill's ecumenical activities, there is an article about his long career in ecumenical activities.

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/news-management/eng/a/article//russian-orthodox-church-e.html

Libelous accusations removed  -PtA


Concerning Patriarch Kirill's close cooperation with the catholic-MP ecumenical organization Taizé of which he is a honorary "brother":

http://www.taize.fr/en_article8079.html

Quoting from that article "We pray for the ministry of communion that is entrusted to you at the heart of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church, and also for the service of witnessing to the unity of all Christians, which the world so badly needs."

Thank you Father Chris for your help, and thank you for using the magic word: PLEASE






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« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2009, 10:24:59 PM »

I think the letter "z" is being used way too much here.
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« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2009, 02:21:57 AM »

I don't have much online information in english, one of the few things I could find is this wonderful online book:

http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/index.html

The Chapters "Church in Distress" and "PROFANATION OF HOLY MYSTERIES" provide information about what I mentioned above.

Quote from the Chapter "Church in Distress":

"The practice of offering Communion to the heterodox (see the Chapter on the Profanation of Holy Mysteries) is reaching epidemic proportion in the MP. This may be illustrated by the state of affairs in the Kaliningrad vicariate of the MP which is one of the ecumenical establishments and is ruled by Bishop Panteleimon (Kutov), a subordinate of Metropolitan Kirill (Gundyaev). In connection with the building project (still only a project, although some donations have already been collected a long time ago) for a Cathedral in the former Koenigsberg (now Kaliningrad), local parishioners hope that "this will be an Orthodox church not only by its name. Unfortunately, Bishop Panteleimon's ecumenical views leave little hope that in the new Cathedral things will be any different from what they are now in the patriarchal churches of the Kaliningrad area,  where Orthodox people are offered Communion from one chalice with heretics. Bishop Panteleimon himself felt no embarrassment when he declared that "Catholics ...partook of Communion in our churches, and the priests offered prayers for them" [374]*. "

*[374] Vedomosti Pravoslavnoi zhizni (News of Church Life), No. 2/12, 1996. Quoted from Orthodox Russia, No. 1553, 15/28 Feb. 1996, p. 12.
I've taken a look at this Ecumenizm web site you just recommended.  It reads like nothing more than the same extremist propaganda you've been feeding us here.  I hardly find this authoritative.

I also see that you have provided no evidence of your specific claims that Patriarch Kyrill personally concelebrated Liturgy with Pope Benedict, that Pope Benedict gave Patriarch Kyrill a chalice in remembrance of their concelebrations, that Patriarch Kyrill personally gave Communion to non-Orthodox.  All these claims you have made, and all these claims you still need to substantiate.

Concerning Patriarch Kirill's ecumenical activities, there is an article about his long career in ecumenical activities.

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/news-management/eng/a/article//russian-orthodox-church-e.html

Libelous accusations removed  -PtA

A letter from the WCC to Patriarch Kyrill congratulating His Holiness on his recent election to the Patriarchal Throne.  That in itself may cause legitimate discomfort that the MP has become too cozy with ecumenical organizations and with other non-Orthodox churches, but the letter offers no detailed information whatsoever regarding specific ecumenical activities such as those you just detailed in the above quote.  In the end, it is still you and you alone alleging that these ecumenical activities involve joint services and the distribution of Communion to all present therein.

Concerning Patriarch Kirill's close cooperation with the catholic-MP ecumenical organization Taizé of which he is a honorary "brother":

http://www.taize.fr/en_article8079.html

Quoting from that article "We pray for the ministry of communion that is entrusted to you at the heart of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church, and also for the service of witnessing to the unity of all Christians, which the world so badly needs."
Such a connection with Taizé as this certainly implies does not constitute heresy per se, unless the mere friendship with those who are not Orthodox is itself tantamount to heresy.  Can you substantiate any allegation that His Holiness actually joined Taizé services to pray with them or that he concelebrated liturgical services with them.  This would constitute heretical behavior, not what little you have stated thus far.


Thank you Father Chris for your help, and thank you for using the magic word: PLEASE
What happened to the spirit of goodwill you had toward me as recently as a couple of days ago?  Am I not your friend anymore? Cry

No, PeterTheAleut does not have to apologize for any of his comments. It's wise not to pry into other people's business, but since you're so interested in the relationship between PeterTheAluet and I, I must tell you the following:

a) PeterTheAleut has been proper, polite and impersonal in his replies.

b) The reason why I said what I said is because PeterTheAleut first gave me a warning, then he moved my posts and the thread from the section they were posted, to here, and all this make me feel he was getting personal, and that he was being mean, and determined to abuse his faculties as a moderator to come after me.

I was wrong about PeterTheAleut, he is a good person. I see I caused all the problems, I got angry, I was aggressive, and mean, and I got personal, and if anyone deserves an appology, is PeterTheAleut.

I'm sorry, I appologize to you PeterTheAleut.
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« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2009, 02:36:29 AM »

I don't have much online information in english, one of the few things I could find is this wonderful online book:

http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/index.html

The Chapters "Church in Distress" and "PROFANATION OF HOLY MYSTERIES" provide information about what I mentioned above.

Quote from the Chapter "Church in Distress":

"The practice of offering Communion to the heterodox (see the Chapter on the Profanation of Holy Mysteries) is reaching epidemic proportion in the MP. This may be illustrated by the state of affairs in the Kaliningrad vicariate of the MP which is one of the ecumenical establishments and is ruled by Bishop Panteleimon (Kutov), a subordinate of Metropolitan Kirill (Gundyaev). In connection with the building project (still only a project, although some donations have already been collected a long time ago) for a Cathedral in the former Koenigsberg (now Kaliningrad), local parishioners hope that "this will be an Orthodox church not only by its name. Unfortunately, Bishop Panteleimon's ecumenical views leave little hope that in the new Cathedral things will be any different from what they are now in the patriarchal churches of the Kaliningrad area,  where Orthodox people are offered Communion from one chalice with heretics. Bishop Panteleimon himself felt no embarrassment when he declared that "Catholics ...partook of Communion in our churches, and the priests offered prayers for them" [374]*. "

*[374] Vedomosti Pravoslavnoi zhizni (News of Church Life), No. 2/12, 1996. Quoted from Orthodox Russia, No. 1553, 15/28 Feb. 1996, p. 12.
I've taken a look at this Ecumenizm web site you just recommended.  It reads like nothing more than the same extremist propaganda you've been feeding us here.  I hardly find this authoritative.


The website in question may be "extremist propoganda" but Pravloslav09 has provided a written citation that a bishop of the MP has admitted to freely communing Roman Catholics. I find that pretty disturbing, unless someone can prove it is not true.  It seems to me you are dismissing the evidence too quickly.  It would fit in with the fact that the MP officially allowed communion for Roman Catholics starting around 1968 and ending at a time I am not sure about, but I believe in the 1970's or 1980's.  I am not saying it is a slam dunk connection, but it seems like it could be part of a larger trend.
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« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2009, 03:08:19 AM »

I don't have much online information in english, one of the few things I could find is this wonderful online book:

http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/index.html

The Chapters "Church in Distress" and "PROFANATION OF HOLY MYSTERIES" provide information about what I mentioned above.

Quote from the Chapter "Church in Distress":

"The practice of offering Communion to the heterodox (see the Chapter on the Profanation of Holy Mysteries) is reaching epidemic proportion in the MP. This may be illustrated by the state of affairs in the Kaliningrad vicariate of the MP which is one of the ecumenical establishments and is ruled by Bishop Panteleimon (Kutov), a subordinate of Metropolitan Kirill (Gundyaev). In connection with the building project (still only a project, although some donations have already been collected a long time ago) for a Cathedral in the former Koenigsberg (now Kaliningrad), local parishioners hope that "this will be an Orthodox church not only by its name. Unfortunately, Bishop Panteleimon's ecumenical views leave little hope that in the new Cathedral things will be any different from what they are now in the patriarchal churches of the Kaliningrad area,  where Orthodox people are offered Communion from one chalice with heretics. Bishop Panteleimon himself felt no embarrassment when he declared that "Catholics ...partook of Communion in our churches, and the priests offered prayers for them" [374]*. "

*[374] Vedomosti Pravoslavnoi zhizni (News of Church Life), No. 2/12, 1996. Quoted from Orthodox Russia, No. 1553, 15/28 Feb. 1996, p. 12.
I've taken a look at this Ecumenizm web site you just recommended.  It reads like nothing more than the same extremist propaganda you've been feeding us here.  I hardly find this authoritative.


The website in question may be "extremist propoganda" but Pravloslav09 has provided a written citation that a bishop of the MP has admitted to freely communing Roman Catholics. I find that pretty disturbing, unless someone can prove it is not true.  It seems to me you are dismissing the evidence too quickly.  It would fit in with the fact that the MP officially allowed communion for Roman Catholics starting around 1968 and ending at a time I am not sure about, but I believe in the 1970's or 1980's.  I am not saying it is a slam dunk connection, but it seems like it could be part of a larger trend.
Honestly, Father, I'm not so sure I am dismissing the evidence too quickly.  Even if giving Communion to Catholics was normative practice in the Soviet church 20-40 years ago, and even if Patriarch Kyrill participated actively in this uncanonical practice way back then, I still find quite disturbing Pravoslav09's charges that these practices of intercommunion are being continued today by none less than His Holiness, and I would still like to see something to substantiate this.  Even the Ecumenizm publication we're discussing right now speaks of the official practice of communing known Roman Catholics having been discontinued in 1986.  So what evidence does the publication provide that His Holiness Patriarch Kyrill is STILL giving Communion to known Catholics?  The most recent footnote I see on either of the two pages Pravoslav09 cited dates back to 1996, which makes me wonder if the web site itself hasn't been updated in 13 years.

I'm also making what appears to be more of a differentiation than you appear to be making between the Moscow Patriarchate and the larger Russian Orthodox Church.  According to one of the articles Pravoslav09 cited, the MP granted somewhat more discretionary freedom to individual diocesan bishops to rule the affairs of their own dioceses regarding these matters of relations with heterodox churches and intercommunion.  I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP.  Again, with the decentralization of authority in the Russian Church comes decreased culpability for the actions of the diocesan bishops in his synod.
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« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2009, 03:27:38 AM »

It would fit in with the fact that the MP officially allowed communion for Roman Catholics starting around 1968 and ending at a time I am not sure about, but I believe in the 1970's or 1980's.  I am not saying it is a slam dunk connection, but it seems like it could be part of a larger trend.

Christ is Risen!

Dear Father Anastasios,

My recollection is the Russian Synod made a decision to offer communion to Catholics inside the Soviet Union who had been cut off from any ministrations of their own Church for decades.   The thought keeps niggling at my mind that this was in fact further restricted to Russian Greek Catholics and to Old Believers.

From a Russian Greek Catholic site:

"Shortly thereafter, on December 16, 1969 the then Metropolitan Alexei of Tallinn, now Patriarch Alexei II, acting as Director of Affairs of the Moscow Patriarchate, announced the Sacred Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church's decision to admit Catholics to receive communion in Russian Orthodox churches (this decision was subsequently rescinded several years later)."
http://rumkatkilise.org/necplus.htm


From Fr Ambrosios Pogodin:

"In one of its decrees the Vatican Council felt it possible and even desirable that Roman Catholics finding themselves beyond the vicinity of a Catholic Church, could receive the holy sacraments, including Holy Communion, from Orthodox Churches in their vicinity. Only the Moscow Patriarchate responded to this and announced a decision favorable to the Catholics, allowing them to receive Communion in Orthodox Churches where there were no Roman Catholic churches. This decision was accepted by the Patriarchal Synod on December 16, 1969 and was also affirmed at a later date. See Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate in English, 1983, No 4, p. 76."

Source  ::  "Reception of Persons into the Orthodox Church"
by Archimandrite Ambrosios Pogodin
Appendix 2
http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/pogodin-reception/reception-appendices.html
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« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2009, 03:27:38 AM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

Christ is Risen!

Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Russian Bishops say that if believers visit non-Orthodox church services
they may not engage in either external or internal prayer.


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4928

11 July 2008, 14:17
Bishops' Council against isolation and confessional mix, the Moscow
Patriarchate says

Moscow, July 11, Interfax - The Russian Church Bishops' Council
recently held in Moscow has "decisively dissociated from two extreme
ideologies," deputy head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for
External Church Relations Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin said.

"On one side, it is Bishop Diomid's isolation and identifying
Orthodoxy with a certain political choice. On the other, it is "a
confessional mix" and the so-called theory of branches which equals
all Christian confessions that supposedly belong to one living tree,"
Fr. Vsevolod told an Interfax-Religion correspondent on Friday.

"I think the question of our participation in ecumenical prayers
messing up Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant traditions is settled
once and forever," the priest said.

He reminded that once the Orthodox participation in such prayers was
justified as "then Western Christians were closer to us in true faith
kept by the Orthodox Church, while today they, especially the world
of liberal Protestantism, have got even further from the possibility
of such unity."

According to the priest, the Council stated that "witness to the
truth of the Holy Orthodoxy" is an objective of inter-Christian and
inter-religious dialogues, and the councilor decision reads that the
Russian Orthodox Church "doesn't accept any attempts to "mix
confessions," to hold joint prayer services that artificially combine
confessional or religious traditions."

Besides, Fr. Vsevolod further said, one of the Council's preliminary
documents - theological and canonical analysis of letters and appeals
signed by Bishop Diomid - reminds of "the very clear thought stated
in the Basic Principles of the Attitude of the Russian Orthodox
Church Towards the Non-Orthodox, that the Orthodox Church is "the
one, holy catholic and apostolic Church."

The interviewee of the agency noted that the Theological and
canonical analysis also stated that "Orthodox believers can visit
Catholic or Protestant churches, attend non-Orthodox service without
voiced or inner prayer, Orthodox prayer before all-Christian shrines
is also acceptable while public or private prayers with non-Orthodox
are inadmissible for Orthodox believers."



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« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2009, 08:28:22 PM »

I think the letter "z" is being used way too much here.

PArdon me AMM? I hope you're not calling anyone a z z Tongue
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« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2009, 12:10:58 PM »

It would fit in with the fact that the MP officially allowed communion for Roman Catholics starting around 1968 and ending at a time I am not sure about, but I believe in the 1970's or 1980's.  I am not saying it is a slam dunk connection, but it seems like it could be part of a larger trend.

Christ is Risen!

Dear Father Anastasios,

My recollection is the Russian Synod made a decision to offer communion to Catholics inside the Soviet Union who had been cut off from any ministrations of their own Church for decades.   The thought keeps niggling at my mind that this was in fact further restricted to Russian Greek Catholics and to Old Believers.


If you thought this would assuage my concerns, it doesn't.
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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2009, 12:14:12 PM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

Christ is Risen!

Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

That is wishful thinking. Once it was set in motion in 2003, the momentum was too hard to stop.

Quote
Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting. It's speaking out of both sides of its mouth. Given the large size of the MP, it's understandable that there would be bishops with differing opinions. But you are clearly ignoring what you don't like, and using what you do like to try and prove your case. Selective reading of the evidence.
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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2009, 12:57:58 PM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

Christ is Risen!

Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

That is wishful thinking. Once it was set in motion in 2003, the momentum was too hard to stop.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?

Quote
Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting.

You mean this: http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/assembly/porto-alegre-2006/1-statements-documents-adopted/christian-unity-and-message-to-the-churches/called-to-be-the-one-church-as-adopted.html

Could you point to one single sentence in the document that is unacceptable to your understanding of Orthodoxy?

It's speaking out of both sides of its mouth.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2009, 03:12:13 PM »

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

If the ROCOR were Orthodox, the GOC wouldn't have needed to break communion with it. 
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2009, 08:46:23 PM »

If the ROCOR were Orthodox, the GOC wouldn't have needed to break communion with it. 

As I have written elsewhere on the forum, the GOA was in full communion with the Russian Church Abroad until 1968 - a period of 50 years since the time of formation of the Russian Church Abroad.  In fact for the early post-Revolution years we were headquartered in Constantinople with the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch.   

After 1968 (for reasons which the Greeks have never been made public) they slowly ceased concelebration but communion continued,  with priests from both sides communing each others laity, hearing their Confessions, etc.

If breaking communion is a sign that one Church or the other has ceased to be Orthodox, who then had ceased to be Orthodox at the time of the Constantinople-Moscow break in communion?

Here is the 1968 GOA Yearbook showing that they were in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until that year.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/greekyearbook1968.jpg
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« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2009, 03:14:22 AM »

My apologies to those whose posts disappeared from this thread, but I couldn't remove the libelous accusations made here without also removing all those posts that quoted and/or replied to said accusations. Sad  I hope you'll understand.
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« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2009, 07:25:03 AM »

If the ROCOR were Orthodox, the GOC wouldn't have needed to break communion with it.  

As I have written elsewhere on the forum, the GOA was in full communion with the Russian Church Abroad until 1968 - a period of 50 years since the time of formation of the Russian Church Abroad.  In fact for the early post-Revolution years we were headquartered in Constantinople with the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  

After 1968 (for reasons which the Greeks have never been made public) they slowly ceased concelebration but communion continued,  with priests from both sides communing each others laity, hearing their Confessions, etc.

If breaking communion is a sign that one Church or the other has ceased to be Orthodox, who then had ceased to be Orthodox at the time of the Constantinople-Moscow break in communion?

Here is the 1968 GOA Yearbook showing that they were in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until that year.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1386/greekyearbook1968.jpg

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).
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« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2009, 08:19:48 AM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise.  The Greek Orthodox Church-Synod in Resistance (Metropolitan Cyprianos of Fili) broke communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad in December 2005.  I've located their letter to ROCA announcing this decision.
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5847

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« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2009, 12:40:36 PM »

I will grant that it's possible that some diocesan bishops in Russia may have been more permissive than might be deemed canonical, but this doesn't reveal as much about the internal practices and governance of the MP as it may have a couple of decades ago, again because of the greater localization I see in the direct jurisdictional authority exercised by the MP. 

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Dear Peter,

Speaking as a member of the Church of Russia I can affirm that what Pravoslav09 is saying about communing Roman Catholics is out of left field.  It is quite impossible that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad would have united with the MP if this were an MP practice.

That is wishful thinking. Once it was set in motion in 2003, the momentum was too hard to stop.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?

Quote
Here is something from 9 months ago forbidding mixed prayer with the heterodox.  How less likely is it that we would be engaged in interpcommunion!?   Shocked

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting.

You mean this: http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/assembly/porto-alegre-2006/1-statements-documents-adopted/christian-unity-and-message-to-the-churches/called-to-be-the-one-church-as-adopted.html

Could you point to one single sentence in the document that is unacceptable to your understanding of Orthodoxy?

It's speaking out of both sides of its mouth.

Do you have sources to substantiate your, otherwise arbitrary, claim?

I'm sorry, but I refuse to speak to you.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2009, 03:10:18 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2009, 07:15:27 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?
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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2009, 07:19:39 PM »

Compare that to what the MP signed in Brazil at the WCC meeting.

The MP did not sign this, Father.  It was signed by one or two attendees at Aleppo.   The document caused a commotion in the Church of Russia in higher circles, as it did to an extent in the Russian Church Abroad.  Russia refused to ratify it and it was dropped like a hot potato.
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« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2009, 07:39:49 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297
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« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2009, 08:02:03 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297


Didn't know you could read Russian, George.
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« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2009, 08:10:16 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297


Didn't know you could read Russian, George.

I don't have to:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=4390
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« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2009, 08:18:52 PM »

I don't think he was talking about the GOA (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America), but rather was talking about the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece).

Ah, I did not realise. 

You missed the point.  If you are going to employ circular reasoning (these practices must have stopped otherwise the ROCOR wouldn't have submitted to the KGB Church), then it is equally valid to assume that the ROCOR isn't Orthodox since the GOC broke communion with them.  But then again, circular reason seems to be especially esteemed in Orthodox circles, or at least in His All Holiness's Patriarchate of the North Island.   

Whose diptychs you on, Nektarios?

Agent Drozdov's apparently:
http://sobor2006.livejournal.com/288065.html?thread=3135297#t3135297


Didn't know you could read Russian, George.

I don't have to:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=tags;id=4390

Oh, then I would have done that word search first.  Posting links to things you can't read can prove embarassing....
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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2009, 08:20:05 PM »


All public figures in the Soviet Union (including bishops) were given code names, irrespective of whether they were pro or anti the communist regime.
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2009, 08:24:39 PM »


All public figures in the Soviet Union (including bishops) were given code names, irrespective of whether they were pro or anti the communist regime.

But they weren't all Sergianists now, were they?
Remember the good old days of ROCOR before the split over the Rapprochement as it approached? Anathemas against this and that, condemnations of Sergianism and accusations of who was a KGB agent?....Ah, memories!
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« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2009, 08:40:47 PM »

Remember the good old days of ROCOR before the split over the Rapprochement as it approached? Anathemas against this and that, condemnations of Sergianism and accusations of who was a KGB agent?....Ah, memories!

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections.   The Russian Church Abroad expected it and worked hard to minimise ill effects and to assist people to refrain from going into schism.   We saw much the same happening last century in Greece with the change of church Calendar but the defections and schisms were on a larger scale.
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« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2009, 08:47:42 PM »

Remember the good old days of ROCOR before the split over the Rapprochement as it approached? Anathemas against this and that, condemnations of Sergianism and accusations of who was a KGB agent?....Ah, memories!

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections.   The Russian Church Abroad expected it and worked hard to minimise ill effects and to assist people to refrain from going into schism.   We saw much the same happening last century in Greece with the change of church Calendar but the defections and schisms were on a larger scale.

....and longer.  Maybe that the "memories" George speaks of.
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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2009, 08:51:48 PM »

But they weren't all Sergianists now, were they?

Take care with this author.  I placed a small Caveat about his writings on the forum earlier...
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20543.msg307076.html#msg307076

His ardent defence of Valentine of Suzdal has now turned to disillusionment and he has moved on to some other dissident group.
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2009, 09:05:05 PM »

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections. 
True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18

The Russian Church Abroad expected it
Of course the ROCOR expected it! She has been condemning "Sergianism" for decades and continues to do so. Remember Fr. Nikita Grigoriev report to last year's All Diaspora Council of the ROCOR? Here's a copy:
http://www.rocor.us/docs/english/articles/Fr%20Nikita%20Grigoriev%20on%20Sergianism.pdf
Here are a few quotes from this document which was a report to the Council of the ROCOR:

"The episcopate of ROCOR, however, knew everything quite well. During litigation in court over the
property of a certain Abroad parish, an attorney asked Met. Laurus “and what would happen if you did not join the MP?” to which Met. Laurus responded: “they would kill us”.
Here you have it - Sergianism not in words but precisely in deed."

"The idea of “inner unity in the absence of Eucharistic union” was concocted only recently when the
decision was made to unite ROCOR to the MP. In order to accept such a purely ecumenical idea, “an
enormous psychological transformation” was required. In order to absorb such an enormous
transformation in the people’s psychology, it was imperative to somehow erase the difference
between the Orthodox and the Sergianists from a historical perspective, that is, the difference
between those who did not accept the Declaration and those who did (the followers of Met. Sergius).
The glorification of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia by the MP was an enormously helpful
tool in this regard. Many people were overjoyed by this glorification, perceiving in it a major step in
the right direction by the MP, despite the supposed contradictions, or one might say “conflict of
interest” between the New Martyrs and sergianism. But apparently there are no conflicts here.
According to the Sergianist glorification, among the new martyrs are included even those who signed
the treacherous and blasphemous Declaration of Met. Sergius. And these are not isolated individual
cases, but on the contrary, an overwhelming majority (more than 80%) as stated by the MP
protopriest in charge of this matter."


Three cheers for ROCOR's valiant stance against the Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate!
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« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2009, 09:22:29 PM »

Ah, poor George!  Have to make the most of the Patriarch Kyrill's tenure, as if, as is rumored, should Bishop Hilarion succeed him, there will be nothing to talk about, despite the fact that Bishop Hilarion was educated by, and finished his doctorate under,  that notorious KGB agent in Great Britain, Bishop Kallistos Ware.  Who's his primate again?

But what does His Grace Hilarion know?
Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Statement at the meeting of the EU leadership with religious leaders of Europe

Brussels, 5 May 2008

One would expect from the EU authorities that they will do more to protect Europe’s Christian heritage. This relates, in particular, to the Kosovo region, where churches are being brutally destroyed, and thousands of Christians are left homeless or forced into exile. It also relates to that part of Cyprus which is still unlawfully occupied by Turkish military forces, where churches are being ruined and the remaining Christian population continues to suffer excessively.

Turkey aspires towards membership in the European Union, while at the same time continuing to neglect the needs of its Christian population. Turkey’s refusal to reopen the theological school on Halki, in spite of repeated requests from the Patriarchate of Constantinople, is but one of many examples of such neglect. This largely anti-Christian policy is presently enforced by the official denial of the atrocities committed against Christians in the past, such as the genocide of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians. I hope that the EU will use the mechanism of negotiation with Turkey in order to ensure that crimes of the past will never be repeated in the future, and that religious minorities in Turkey will be treated according to civilized standards.
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« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2009, 09:33:14 PM »

You're backing the wrong horse ialmisry  Smiley
In case I die before you do, just remember these words:
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« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2009, 09:37:47 PM »

All major changes will spawn a period of uncertainty and propaganda and there will always be defections. 
True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18

The Protos of the ROAC, +Valentine of Suzdal, was arrested on Holy Friday by the Russian police.   Material emanating from his website is polemical in its intent. 

If one researches +Valetine's own church history we find he was a happy camper in the "Sergianist" Church for decades.   

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Quote
Of course the ROCOR expected it! She has been condemning "Sergianism" for decades and continues to do so. Remember Fr. Nikita Grigoriev report to last year's All Diaspora Council of the ROCOR? Here's a copy:
http://www.rocor.us/docs/english/articles/Fr%20Nikita%20Grigoriev%20on%20Sergianism.pdf
Here are a few quotes from this document which was a report to the Council of the ROCOR:

"The episcopate of ROCOR, however, knew everything quite well. During litigation in court over the
property of a certain Abroad parish, an attorney asked Met. Laurus “and what would happen if you did not join the MP?” to which Met. Laurus responded: “they would kill us”.
Here you have it - Sergianism not in words but precisely in deed."

"The idea of “inner unity in the absence of Eucharistic union” was concocted only recently when the
decision was made to unite ROCOR to the MP. In order to accept such a purely ecumenical idea, “an
enormous psychological transformation” was required. In order to absorb such an enormous
transformation in the people’s psychology, it was imperative to somehow erase the difference
between the Orthodox and the Sergianists from a historical perspective, that is, the difference
between those who did not accept the Declaration and those who did (the followers of Met. Sergius).
The glorification of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia by the MP was an enormously helpful
tool in this regard. Many people were overjoyed by this glorification, perceiving in it a major step in
the right direction by the MP, despite the supposed contradictions, or one might say “conflict of
interest” between the New Martyrs and sergianism. But apparently there are no conflicts here.
According to the Sergianist glorification, among the new martyrs are included even those who signed
the treacherous and blasphemous Declaration of Met. Sergius. And these are not isolated individual
cases, but on the contrary, an overwhelming majority (more than 80%) as stated by the MP
protopriest in charge of this matter."


Three cheers for ROCOR's valiant stance against the Sergianist Moscow Patriarchate!

Fr Nikita Grigoriev has, alas, followed his thoughts to their logical conclusion and has left the Orthodox Church.  As with the other priests who have chosen that path, the Synod of the Russian Church Abroad has taken no action against them but has left the door open for their return.
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« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2009, 09:43:50 PM »


The Protos of the ROAC, +Valentine of Suzdal, was arrested on Holy Friday by the Russian police.   Material emanating from his website is polemical in its intent. 

This is attempted character assassination. Maybe you would like to expound on why he was arrested. By saying he was arrested on Friday without discussing why, could lead to wildly different assumptions...

Quote
If one researches +Valetine's own church history we find he was a happy camper in the "Sergianist" Church for decades. 

Saul participated in the murder of St Stephen before he converted and became an Apostle...

Quote
Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Well it wouldn't be convenient...

« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 09:45:30 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2009, 09:46:07 PM »

You're backing the wrong horse ialmisry  Smiley
In case I die before you do, just remember these words:
"I told you so."

I think we are of similar age, and my ex wife has taken at least two decades off my life.  So chances are that I'll be answering to a greater moderator sooner.

But not to worry.  I believe we will be running down the home stretch by summer's end.
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« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2009, 09:53:23 PM »

my ex wife has taken at least two decades off my life.
LOL! Cheesy
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« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2009, 09:56:19 PM »

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."
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« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2009, 10:09:39 PM »

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."

Like what Constantinople did about Patriarch St. Tikhon?

St. John Maximovich:
Quote
The Decline of Moral Authority
The moral authority of the Patriarchs of Constantinople has likewise fallen very low in view of their extreme instability in ecclesiastical matters. Thus, Patriarch Meletius IV arranged a “Pan-Orthodox Congress,” with representatives of various churches, which decreed the introduction of the New Calendar. This decree, recognized only by a part of the Church, introduced a frightful schism among Orthodox Christians. Patriarch Gregory VII recognized the decree of the council of the Living Church concerning the deposing of Patriarch Tikhon, whom not long before this the Synod of Constantinople had declared a “confessor,” and then he entered into communion with the “Renovationists” in Russia, which continues up to now.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles-2009/Maximovitch-The-Decline-Of-The-Patriarchate-Of-Constantinople.php
[/quote]

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“ . . . the Holy Synod succeeded in influencing the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Church in Constantinople Gregory VII to endorse the decision of the Russian Conclave, which deposed and unfrocked Dr. Tikhon, thus  dealing the heaviest blow he had yet sustained.”
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« Reply #120 on: April 26, 2009, 10:16:04 PM »


The Protos of the ROAC, +Valentine of Suzdal, was arrested on Holy Friday by the Russian police.   Material emanating from his website is polemical in its intent. 
This is attempted character assassination. Maybe you would like to expound on why he was arrested. By saying he was arrested on Friday without discussing why, could lead to wildly different assumptions...

As has been reported in recent news stories, the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church is being sued for possession of 13 churches that it received from local authorities over the past 15-20 years, which were received by us in utterly ruined conditions and carefully renovated and returned to use as churches at our expense. The cases were heard at trial on February 5th by the Vladimir Regional Court of Arbitration. This court ruled against the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church and ordered the local authorities to confiscate the churches. We were given 30 days to vacate the buildings. Appeals were begun, and recently the Court of Appeals postponed the hearing of these cases until the 24th of April. Believing that the Court of Appeals is prejudiced against us, and in compliance with the court order, our people have been trying to gradually remove our belongings from these churches - vestments, icons, church vessels, books, etc. Two of our deacons were recently detained by the local police, who explained that they had received a request from the Moscow Patriarchate not to allow us to remove our own belongings from these churches. Apparently, they think that they have a right even to those furnishings that we have placed in these churches.

Today, on Orthodox Good Friday, Metropolitan Valentine made a frantic telephone call to Bishop Andrew of Pavlovskoye, who resides in the US, and had time enough to say only that he and those with him have been arrested for entering the church to serve Holy Week services, before his telephone call was cut off.

We ask all of our people to pray for the deliverance of our FIRST HIERARCH from police custody, and we ask all men of good will, who value the rights of people everywhere to pray in peace and freedom of conscience, as supposedly guaranteed by the Constitution of the new Russian Federation, to make their concerns known to the authorities both in Russia and in their respective countries.
Source: http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=english&id=341
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« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2009, 11:25:20 PM »

Question:  If +Valentine is right and Patriarch Kirill is a criminal, why would Constantinople and the other Local Churches not do something about it as they did with Jerusalem?

Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."

Dear George,

All-Diaspora Councils, involving clergy and laity, are venues specifically held for the expression of opinions.   Fr Nikita Grigoriev was entitled to present his.

Unfortunately his mindset led him out of canonical Orthodoxy and he is now a member a group which both Constantinople and Moscow would see as schismatic.   His presentation is posted on a webpage of this group

http://www.rocor.us/docs/english/articles/Fr%20Nikita%20Grigoriev%20on%20Sergianism.pdf

http://www.rocor.us/
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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2009, 05:46:30 AM »


Don't you mean "If the report on Sergianism to the November 2008 ROCOR All Diaspora Council which is on the official ROCOR website is right...."

My apologies, George.

As I've mentioned this is not a website of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad but one of the dissident groups recently formed as a protest over the union of the Church Abroad with the Moscow Patriarchate.

Further, this was NOT an All-Disapora Council of the canonical Russian Church Abroard.  The last of these was held prior to the union with Moscow.  This presentation of Fr Nikita Grigoriev was not to any official Church Council but to the small group which he has joined.

Their website:
http://www.rocor.us/
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« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2009, 09:11:28 PM »

True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18
So the Russian Patriarch is becoming "a criminal with the criminals'. It is not right to see this unsubstantiated gossip presented to the Forum.   People should take more care with the material they submit here.



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« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2009, 01:32:18 AM »

True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18
So the Russian Patriarch is becoming "a criminal with the criminals'. It is not right to see this unsubstantiated gossip presented to the Forum.   People should take more care with the material they submit here.
You do realize, though, that it isn't George who originated this accusation against the MP?  That he's merely saying,  "This is what the True Orthodox are saying about the MP"?
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« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2009, 05:51:47 AM »

True, but who has defected? The True Orthodox of the Russian Church state that ROCOR has defected by capitulating to the Sergianists.
Quote
That is why the present “Patriarch” Alexis (i.e. KGB Agent “Drozdov”) has been so ambiguous about the Soviet past of his church. Contrary to what Archbishop Mark of Berlin writes, Alexis has by no means repented of the sins of the past; he refuses to condemn Sergius’ declaration, but simply says that it “has departed into the past”. He continues to serve the interests of the powers that be, of whatever colour they may be. Thus he first became a communist with the communists, and even on the anniversary of the Tsar’s martyrdom, July 4/17, 1990, he prayed publicly for the preservation of the communist party! But then, when the party fell, he became a democrat with the democrats, transferring his allegiance to the democrat Yeltsin. And now he is becoming a criminal with the criminals, importing alcohol and tobacco duty-free. Thus he has become “all things to all men” – but, alas, not in the way St. Paul meant those words!
Source: http://www.roac-suzdal.narod.ru/sergianism.htm#_ednref18
So the Russian Patriarch is becoming "a criminal with the criminals'. It is not right to see this unsubstantiated gossip presented to the Forum.   People should take more care with the material they submit here.



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Stashko, why not take this up with Vladimir Moss who was in ROCOR when he wrote this- and was a "Traditionalist" (just like you Smiley)?
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« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2009, 05:56:04 AM »

ozgeorge, you should know better than that ...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2009, 06:21:45 AM »

ozgeorge, you should know better than that ...  Roll Eyes

What do you mean? Spit it out.
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« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2009, 01:59:24 AM »

Hi All,

I actually used to attend Holy Trinity in Saginaw.  I don't understand (or know) the entire history of this church, nor how or why it ended up how it did, but this is the information that I have -- take it as it is, I am just a lay person. 

The church ended up being run by Bishop Andreas (Nowak), many of you will not know who he is, and that is OK.  My purpose for this post is not to debate particular orders or synods (mostly because I am not of authority or knowledge to make any comments on this).  For about (what I can gather) is about 10 years, he ran the church, and then suddenly the church council decided to close the church.  The details become sketchy at this point, but needless to say some rather sad things happened and this church no longer operates. 

The church in Dearborn, I think, is not connected to the Church in Saginaw.  As was already discussed, there is a bit of difference in location between Dearborn and Saginaw.  There may (however) be a connection I am not aware of, an perhaps that is where this church ended up. 

Unfortunately, there were a couple of problems when this church found its demise.  One big problem was that most of the parishioners were quite old (not that there is anything wrong with being old Wink ).  That being the way it was, the church really had no where to go.  Another big problem was that the number of people attending the services was relatively small (20-30 people on a good day).  Rounding out the problems was the fact that the church was in a fairly bad area of Saginaw (which I am sure with the economic downturn has become progressively worse). 

Somewhere I have pictures of this church.  I am sure that there are people who also have a 50th anniversary book with pictures in it.  The church was lovely (if outdated).  It had a traditional "onion" dome, with a bell and everything.  The iconostasis had been donated by Saint Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church in Saginaw (at least that was what I was told, and if you had ever seen this iconostasis, you would believe it).   

Anyways, it is another sad story, something that I really hate given the many times I went to this church.  I hope this gives you a little information about it. 

In Christ,

Aleksei



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« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2009, 09:22:07 PM »

On 5/18 November 2004, the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR confimed the previous anathemas laid down by the Russian True-Orthodox Church (Catacomb Church) :

 “To those holding fast to the most-insane renovationist heresy of the sergianists: to those who teach that the earthly establishment of the Church of God is maintained by rejecting the truths of Christ; and to those who declare that the Church of Christ is saved by serving the theomachic authorities and carrying out their godless commands, even unto the trampling down of the sacred canons, the traditions of the Holy Fathers and the divine dogmas, and to the destruction of all Christianity; and to those who revere the antichrist and his servants, and his forerunners, and all his minions, as a legitmate authority and one established by God; and to all the leaders of that antichristian heresy, those who revile the Confessors and New Martyrs (to Sergei of Nizhegorod, to Nikolai of Kiev and to Aleksy of Khutyn), and to those who would repeat their doctrines, and to the renovationists, and to other heretics, — anathema”.

To those who madly proclaim the renovationist heresy of sergianism; to those who teach that the earthly existence of the Church of God can be based upon the denial of the truth of Christ and proclaim that serving God-hating authorities and being faithful to their atheistic commands which trample upon the sacred canons, the tradition of the Holy Fathers and the divine dogmas, and destroy all of Christianity, saves the Church of Christ; and to those who revere the antichrist and his servants, and his forerunners, and all his minions, as a legitimate authority from God; and to those who blaspheme against the new confessors and martyrs — Anathema!


"To the pseudo-patriarchs and persecutors of the true Church of Christ: to Sergei Stragorodsky, the originator of the heresy; to Aleksy Simansky, to Pimen Izvekov, to Aleksy Ridiger, as well as to pseudo-metropolitan Nikodim Rotov, a zealot and champion of this God-abominated heresy of sergianism, and to all those who would repeat their doctrines and their followers — Anathema”
.

Also the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR anathematized the Moscow Patriarchate again, as follows:

«To those who affirm the antichristian sergianist heresy; to those who teach that the Church of Christ is ostensibly saved through union with Christ's enemies, who reject the podvig of martyrdom and confession of the faith, who set up a pseudo-church on the grounds of Judas, and who, for this purpose, permit the doctrine, canons and moral laws of Christianity to be violated; to those who direct Christians to worship a theomachic regime, ostensibly given by God, and to serve it not out of fear but for conscience's sake, blessing all its iniquities; to those who justify the persecution of the True Church of Christ by the theomachs, thinking that they thereby serve God, - as, indeed, did the continuators of the renovationist heresy, Metropolitan Sergii Stragorodskii and all his followers - Anathema!»

The following must be emphasized:

1.- The ROCOR together with the Catacomb Church is the sole canonical and legitimate Russian Orthodox Church.

2.- The ROCOR has anathematized the MP and has no contact with that institution which is impossible to name a church.

3.- ROCOR has condemned the new and false ROCOR founded by Met Laurus in 2001, as an uncanonical (unlawful) breakaway faction.

4.- ROCOR remains in communion with the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece, (GOC) and other True Orthodox groups.

5.- ROCOR has condemned the unorthodox teachings of Metropolitan Kiprianos (Kotsumbas) and has no communion with the "kiprianist churches" (GOC under Metropolitan Kiprianos, ROCOR under Met Agathangelos, etc..)

6.- ROCOR views the new "ROCOR" as an integral part of the MP, and has no relationship with it.

If anyone wishes to have more information on the true, canonical, and legitimate ROCOR, and do more research on the above mentioned information, visit:

http://www.rocor-v.com/rocor/off20046.html

http://www.rocor-v.com/rocor/off20048.html

The false information posted by some in here, made it needful to emphasize the above mentioned. 


 



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« Reply #130 on: June 29, 2009, 09:21:57 PM »

Abstracts from the writtings of Protoierei Lev Labedeff on ROCOR's position in relationship with the MP

"THE POSITION OF THE ROCOR IN RELATION TO THE MP:

One cannot but admit that the apostate, heretical and criminal state of the overwhelming majority of the MP hierarchy corresponds entirely to this state of society as a whole; it is one of the "moles" or "worms" greedily devouring whatever it can still find to devour in the rotting corpse. Under these circumstances what can the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia have in common with the Moscow "Patriarchate"? Nothing! Hence it follows that any kind of "dialogue" or "conference" with the MP with the aim of clarifying "what divides us and what unites us" is either an abysmal failure to understand the essence of things or a betrayal of God's truth and the Church. What divides us is literally everything! And what unites us is nothing, except perhaps the outward forms of church buildings, clerical vestments and the order of services (but not in all respects even here).

Therefore it is necessary to realize clearly and confirm officially that now the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia is not a part of the Church of Russia, but the only lawful Russian Church in all its fullness!

For the ones mislead by the fantastic number of members of the MP, Father Lev offers the following insight:

The Russian speaking believers in Russia are characterized by a predominance of earthly interests over spiritual, by an underhand, dishonest psychology, by "believing a lie," and by "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable" (Rev. 21,8). Magic and sorcery have spread to an extraordinary degree. Nobody seeks Christ and His righteousness: each seeks only "his own." What really proves this is that since 1990-1991, in circumstances of real freedom of conscience in Russia, the Russian speakers have not turned en mass, as an entire people, to the Church and to Christ.

A certain insignificant revival of faith and a trickle of young people into the Church has taken place, but now even this is on the wane. If we go by the statistics, at the present time in the Russian Federation there are no more than 15-20 million Orthodox believers, and only half as many regularly attend church. According to the data of the MP, while as recently as 1993 voluntary donations from individuals made up 43% of all the "patriarchate's" revenues, in 1997 they represented only 6%! The "patriarchate" obtains the rest from usurious money-lending, trading in oil, vodka and tobacco and from other forms of "business," as well as from poorly understood foreign sources.

It is sometimes said that in Russia there is no small number of good, fine people. But the same could be said of the Catholics and Protestants in any western country. It is also said that in Russia even now one can find, even in the bosom of the MP, pious people zealously struggling in prayer and fasting. But it is important to understand that these are not the first rays of sunrise, but the last rays of the sunset. On a rubbish dump you might find antiques, icons and even things made of gold, but still it is not a palace and not a temple, but just a rubbish dump.100 years ago, in 1899, Vladika Anthony (Khrapovitsky) wrote of the "unchurched" part of Russian society of his time: "It is no longer a people, but a rotting corpse, which takes its rotting as a sign of life, while on it, or in it, live only moles, worms and foul insects... for in a living body they would find no satisfaction for their greed, and there would be nothing for them to live on" (Talberg, "History of the Russian Church," Jordanville, 1959, p. 831). At the end of the last century and the beginning of our twentieth century this rotting part of the Russian population made up about 5 - 6% of the total. Now, at the end of the twentieth century, in Russia it constitutes 94 - 95%. The entire Russian Federation taken as a whole is a "rotting corpse".


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