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Author Topic: Strange things in MP's Parishes and Ialmisry's thoughts on Chrism and Innovation  (Read 15642 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 02, 2009, 10:04:53 AM »

Quote
It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Eminence Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.”

source

Parishes under omophorion of two Local Churches simultaneously? Could one explain me this?
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 11:55:42 AM »

Quote
It should be brought to the attention of the clergy of the Patriarchal Parishes as to the form of the prayer for the remembrance of the hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Divine Services: During the Litany: “For our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, and for our Lord His Grace Bishop Job,” and throughout the text. During the Great Entrance: “Our Great Lord and Father His Holiness Kirill, Patriarch of Moscow and of All Russia, His Eminence Jonah, Metropolitan of All American and Canada, and our Lord His Grace Job, Bishop of Kashir, may the Lord God remember them in His Kingdom, always, now, and forever, and unto the ages of ages.”

source

Parishes under omophorion of two Local Churches simultaneously? Could one explain me this?

There seems to be precedence:
Quote
Czar Nicholas II made the first donation to the building fund, 5,000 rubles, then about $2,500. in may 1901, when the cornerstone was laid, it bore a silver plaque praising him. "long live the Emperor of Russia and the President of the United States," proclaimed the rev. Alexander Hotovitsky, the minister.
http://russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=985&ln=en

I wonder if this is a sign that the RP parishes are going to be integrated into the OCA.

Does anyone know what is the status of ROCA vis-a-vis the RP parishes and vis-a-vis the OCA?

The same page may have some bearing on thread about the question of American bishops:

Quote
Last April, Aleksy II, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church in Moscow, sent Bishop Mercurius to take over St. Nicholas. "He asked me if I had ever been to America," Bishop Mercurius said through an interpreter. " And I said, " No," and he said, "OK., go."

with good signs:

Quote
Bishop Mercurius said he is seeking many changes at St. Nicholas, where there is no exterior sign announcing the days and times of services, and where the gates on the front steps are often locked. "The cathedral has to be open every day, regardless," he said. "A lock on the door of a cathedral is not a good thing."
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 01:23:51 PM »

I seriously doubt that ROCOR would be going under OCA.  It is being regulary stated by ROCOR clergy, especially Bishop Jerome (Fr. John Shaw), that ROCOR does not recognize OCA autocephaly AND was never required to recognize OCA autocephaly by the MP.   

I heard one ROCOR clergyman recently make an observation that that by working closely with ROCOR in the USA, the MP can actually get around the restrictions of the TOMOS which limits its activities.

Also, consider this: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2009/3enmosds.html
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 02:23:55 PM »

How will there every be jurisdictional unity this country if that is believed???  police
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 02:42:33 PM »

I heard one ROCOR clergyman recently make an observation that that by working closely with ROCOR in the USA, the MP can actually get around the restrictions of the TOMOS which limits its activities.

So now they want to disobey the tomos which was granted by them?  Huh It's a nonsense.

And even not openly but creeping in shadows It's idiotic!

How will there every be jurisdictional unity this country if that is believed???  police

No idea but it seems that niether of the Primates wants it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 02:44:02 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 02:48:14 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 02:50:37 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.

It would be good if OCA absorbed ROCOR and let them use the Julian one. Calendar is not an issue but an excuse.
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 02:51:08 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would could also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.

I altered your post a wee bit.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 03:48:57 PM »

I say just mix them together already, but everything takes time in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 08:52:34 PM »

I'm fairly certain that's how Patriarchal parishes have always been supposed to do it (just updated to reflect the new Patriarch and Metropolitan). Under the OCA's Tomos, those North American parishes that remained under the MP have the technical (if not functional) status of representation churches. That is, they are 'guest' parishes in the territory of another Church. And it is standard at representation churches to commemorate both the church's own hierarchy and the actual hierarch of the territory they are located in. Thus the OCA's representation church in Moscow also commemorates Patriarch Kiril and Metropolitan Jonah (though in reverse order).

(No idea what, if any relevance this has to ROCOR since I've never seen anything that even attempts to reconcile ROCOR's current relationship with the MP with the MP's relationship with the OCA. So far, the idea seems to be to simply pretend that the two have nothing to do with each other).
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 10:36:07 PM »

I'm fairly certain that's how Patriarchal parishes have always been supposed to do it (just updated to reflect the new Patriarch and Metropolitan). Under the OCA's Tomos, those North American parishes that remained under the MP have the technical (if not functional) status of representation churches. That is, they are 'guest' parishes in the territory of another Church. And it is standard at representation churches to commemorate both the church's own hierarchy and the actual hierarch of the territory they are located in. Thus the OCA's representation church in Moscow also commemorates Patriarch Kiril and Metropolitan Jonah (though in reverse order).

(No idea what, if any relevance this has to ROCOR since I've never seen anything that even attempts to reconcile ROCOR's current relationship with the MP with the MP's relationship with the OCA. So far, the idea seems to be to simply pretend that the two have nothing to do with each other).

ROCOR seem to fall under this in the Tomos of Autocephaly:
Quote
7. The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii who are presently part of the Metropolitanate, or who shall later enter the Metropolitanate; and over all parishes which now belong or later shall be accepted into the Metropolitanate, excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Paragraph 3, points a,b,c.


8. The Moscow Patriarchate shall not lay claim to either spiritual or canonical jurisdiction over bishops, clergy and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession, or over parishes mentioned in Division 1, Paragraph 7, and by the present yields to the Metropolitanate, all jurisdiction to which she has laid claim on the above men¬tioned territory (Paragraph 7); excepting the entire clergy, possessions and parishes enumerated in Para¬graph 3, points a,b,c.

I'm not sure what "Division 1" is refering to.  Paragraph 3:
Quote
3. The following are excluded from autocephaly on the territory of North America:
a. St. Nicholas Cathedral and its possessions, located at 15 East 97th Street in New York City and the accompanying residence; and also the immovable possessions in Pine Bush, New York, together with buildings and edifices which might be constructed in the future on this land;

b. Parishes and clergy in the U.S.A. which at present are in the Patriarchal Exarchate and which desire to remain in the canonical and jurisdictional care of the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia – these parishes, desiring to remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and excluded from the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America are the following:

1. St. Nicholas Church, Brookside, State of Alabama
2. St. Demetrius Monastery, Bellflower, State of California
3. Christ the Savior Church, Berkley, State of California
4. St. Nicholas Cathedral, San Francisco, State of California
5. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, San Francisco, State of California
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
7. Resurrection Church, Chicago, State of Illinois
8. Dormition Church Benld, State of Illinois
9. Holy Trinity Church, Baltimore, State of Maryland
10. St. Elias Church, Battle Creek, State of Michigan
11. St. Innocent Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
12. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
13. Church of St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle, East Lansing, State of Michigan
14. Holy Trinity Church, Saginaw, State of Michigan
15. St. John Chrysostom Church, Grand Rapids, State of Michigan
16. House Chapel of St. Seraphim of Sarov, Westown, State of New York
17. St. Demetrius Church, Jackson, State of Michigan
18. St. Nicholas Church, Bayonne, State of New Jersey
19. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Elizabeth, State of New Jersey
20. Three Hierarchs Church, Garfield, State of New Jersey
21. Holy Cross Church, Hackettstown, State of New Jersey
22. Sts. Peter and Paul Church; Passaic, State of New Jersey
23. St. John the Baptist Church, Singac (Little Falls), State of New Jersey
24. St. Olga Church, Somerset, State of New Jersey
25. St. Mark Chapel, State of New York
26. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, State of New York
27. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, on the estate of Pine Bush, State of New York
28. St. John the Baptist Chapel, Bronx, State of New York
29. Church of All Saints Glotified in the Russian Land, Amsterdam (Wolf Run), State of Ohio
30. St. Stephen Church, Lorairi, State of Ohio
31. Nativity of Christ Church, Youngstown, State of Ohio
32. St. Nicholas Church, Chester, State of Pennsylvania
33. St. Nicholas Church, Edinboro, Pageville, State of Pennsylvania
34. St. Nicholas Church, Reading, State of Pennsylvania
35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania
36. St. Nicholas Church, Wilkes-Barre, State of Pennsylvania
37. St. Andrew the Apostle Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
38. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
39. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Scranton, State of Pennsylvania
40. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Burgaw, State of North Carolina
41. St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Tampa, State of Florida
42. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Manchester, State of New Hampshire
43. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, Buffalo, State of New York

c. All parishes and clergy in Canada, which presently constitute the Edmonton, Canada Diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate (they all desired to remain in the jurisdiction of the Most Holy Patriarch).

I think the parish in Chicago was folded when the priest was recalled back to Russia to help with the demand there after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  What has happened to the rest?  Have any joined the OCA? per

Quote
9. The changing of jurisdictions by parishes which are in the canonical care of the Moscow Patriarchate after the proclamation of the Metropolitanate’s autocephaly shall occur on the initiative of the parishes them¬selves and after bilateral agreements in each concrete case between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Auto¬cephalous Church in America.

10. The Moscow Patriarchate shall not receive into its care in North America any clerics without written release or any parishes except parishes from uncanonical ecclesiastical organizations in Canada; and shall not canonically permit clergy and parishes remaining in its care to enter any of the Orthodox jurisdictions but the jurisdiction of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America.

11. The Patriarchate assures the parishes remaining in its care of its readiness to defend their status as parishes of the Moscow Patriarchate, and also defend the enumerated parishes from attempts to change their present status without a free expression of their decision without the written agreement of the Moscow Patriarchate.

btw
Quote
6. Parishes and clergy which at this time constitute the Edmonton, Canada Diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate and remain in the canonical jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, shall be governed by the Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia through one of his vicar bishops not having a title of the local American Church, especially appointed for this, and until such time as these parishes express their official desire to join the Autocephalous Church in America in the manner described below.

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 12:59:49 AM »

Quote
. . .
10. St. Elias Church, Battle Creek, State of Michigan
11. St. Innocent Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
12. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Detroit, State of Michigan
13. Church of St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle, East Lansing, State of Michigan
14. Holy Trinity Church, Saginaw, State of Michigan
15. St. John Chrysostom Church, Grand Rapids, State of Michigan
. . .
17. St. Demetrius Church, Jackson, State of Michigan
. . .

I think the parish in Chicago was folded when the priest was recalled back to Russia to help with the demand there after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  What has happened to the rest?  Have any joined the OCA?

Of the Michigan Patriarchal parishes, St Demetrius in Jackson did indeed join the Metropolia (1983; they applied in 1979). Holy Trinity in Saginaw went to the Ukrainians, and finally closed at some point during the past 10 years. The rest of the parishes remain in the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 02:53:29 AM »

After a little digging around, here's some more information.

Other Patriarchal parishes that joined the Metropolia:

Quote
29. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, Amsterdam (Wolf Run), State of Ohio
43. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, Buffalo, State of New York

The Buffalo parish joined in 1970. I haven't been able to find a date for the Amsterdam/Wolf Run parish.

The following parishes have basically closed, but never left the Moscow Patriarchate:

Quote
24. St. Olga Church, Somerset, State of New Jersey
33. St. Nicholas Church, Edinboro, Pageville, State of Pennsylvania
40. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Burgaw, State of North Carolina

There's an interesting article about the Burgaw parish here.

As for this parish:

Quote
35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

There's a parish of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese with an identical name and location, but that may just be an altogether different parish for all I know. At any rate, no such parish is currently listed among the Patriarchal parishes in US.

Finally, in addition to the Michigan parishes listed above, all the following still are active Patriarchal parishes:

Quote
1. St. Nicholas Church, Brookside, State of Alabama
. . .
4. St. Nicholas Cathedral, San Francisco, State of California
. . .
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
. . .
8. Dormition Church Benld, State of Illinois
9. Holy Trinity Church, Baltimore, State of Maryland
. . .
18. St. Nicholas Church, Bayonne, State of New Jersey
19. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Elizabeth, State of New Jersey
20. Three Hierarchs Church, Garfield, State of New Jersey
21. Holy Cross Church, Hackettstown, State of New Jersey
22. Sts. Peter and Paul Church; Passaic, State of New Jersey
23. St. John the Baptist Church, Singac (Little Falls), State of New Jersey
. . .
26. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, State of New York
27. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, on the estate of Pine Bush, State of New York
. . .
31. Nativity of Christ Church, Youngstown, State of Ohio
32. St. Nicholas Church, Chester, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
34. St. Nicholas Church, Reading, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
36. St. Nicholas Church, Wilkes-Barre, State of Pennsylvania
37. St. Andrew the Apostle Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
38. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
39. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Scranton, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
41. St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Tampa, State of Florida
42. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Manchester, State of New Hampshire
. . .

That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 01:56:14 PM »

After a little digging around, here's some more information.

Other Patriarchal parishes that joined the Metropolia:

Quote
29. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, Amsterdam (Wolf Run), State of Ohio
43. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, Buffalo, State of New York

The Buffalo parish joined in 1970. I haven't been able to find a date for the Amsterdam/Wolf Run parish.

The following parishes have basically closed, but never left the Moscow Patriarchate:

Quote
24. St. Olga Church, Somerset, State of New Jersey
33. St. Nicholas Church, Edinboro, Pageville, State of Pennsylvania
40. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Burgaw, State of North Carolina

There's an interesting article about the Burgaw parish here.

As for this parish:

Quote
35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

There's a parish of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese with an identical name and location, but that may just be an altogether different parish for all I know. At any rate, no such parish is currently listed among the Patriarchal parishes in US.

Finally, in addition to the Michigan parishes listed above, all the following still are active Patriarchal parishes:

Quote
1. St. Nicholas Church, Brookside, State of Alabama
. . .
4. St. Nicholas Cathedral, San Francisco, State of California
. . .
6. Our Lady of Kazan Church, San Diego, State of California
. . .
8. Dormition Church Benld, State of Illinois
9. Holy Trinity Church, Baltimore, State of Maryland
. . .
18. St. Nicholas Church, Bayonne, State of New Jersey
19. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Elizabeth, State of New Jersey
20. Three Hierarchs Church, Garfield, State of New Jersey
21. Holy Cross Church, Hackettstown, State of New Jersey
22. Sts. Peter and Paul Church; Passaic, State of New Jersey
23. St. John the Baptist Church, Singac (Little Falls), State of New Jersey
. . .
26. Church of St. George the Great Martyr, State of New York
27. Church of All Saints Glorified in the Russian Land, on the estate of Pine Bush, State of New York
. . .
31. Nativity of Christ Church, Youngstown, State of Ohio
32. St. Nicholas Church, Chester, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
34. St. Nicholas Church, Reading, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
36. St. Nicholas Church, Wilkes-Barre, State of Pennsylvania
37. St. Andrew the Apostle Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
38. St. Michael the Archangel Church, Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania
39. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Scranton, State of Pennsylvania
. . .
41. St. Gregory the Theologian Church, Tampa, State of Florida
42. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Manchester, State of New Hampshire
. . .

That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.

Nice detective work. Thanks.
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 02:30:24 PM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 02:49:56 PM »

35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

That belongs to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) now.  It sits right off Route 22 across the Juniata River in Mount Union, PA.  It's the same church as the church in the list.  The priest is Father Thomas Klein, he also takes care of the ACROD churches in Huntingdon, PA and Wood, PA. 
At one time coal was mined in that region by Rusyn/Galcian immigrants hence the small Orthodox communities that still exist in Huntingdon County, PA. 
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 03:17:56 PM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink

The Continental Congress extended invitations to the Canadian provinces to the United States of America in Congress Assembled, as they did to West and East Florida.  The Canadians declined the offer, even when sent with force of arms, and, unlike Florida, never took the offer up.  I'm just respecting their decision.
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 03:19:00 PM »

35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

That belongs to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) now.  It sits right off Route 22 across the Juniata River in Mount Union, PA.  It's the same church as the church in the list.  The priest is Father Thomas Klein, he also takes care of the ACROD churches in Huntingdon, PA and Wood, PA. 
At one time coal was mined in that region by Rusyn/Galcian immigrants hence the small Orthodox communities that still exist in Huntingdon County, PA. 

So the EP took them without release from Moscow?
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 03:50:36 PM »

ialmisry> Quite welcome!

Note that there's a small mistake in my post, however: St Nicholas in Edinboro, PA should be listed among the active parishes, not the closed ones. Clearly that no-good editor nodded! Grin

username!> Thanks the information! That makes at least two parishes (Holy Trinity in Saginaw, MI and Ss Peter and Paul in Mount Union, PA) that left the Moscow Patriarchate but did not go to the Metropolia, and then three former Patriarchal parishes that did join it (All Saints in Amsterdam/Wolf Run, OH; St. George in Buffalo, NY; and St Demetrius in Jackson, MI).

If you happen to know how Ss Peter and Paul in Mount Union ended up in ACROD, I'd sure love to know! I'll try to find out how Holy Trinity in Saginaw ended up with the Ukrainians, as that's more or less local and someone around here is bound to know.
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 03:51:21 PM »

Calendar is not an issue but an excuse.

I suspect you're correct, sadly.


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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2009, 04:00:44 PM »

35. Sts. Peter and Paul Church, Mount Union, State of Pennsylvania

That belongs to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) now.  It sits right off Route 22 across the Juniata River in Mount Union, PA.  It's the same church as the church in the list.  The priest is Father Thomas Klein, he also takes care of the ACROD churches in Huntingdon, PA and Wood, PA. 
At one time coal was mined in that region by Rusyn/Galcian immigrants hence the small Orthodox communities that still exist in Huntingdon County, PA.  

So the EP took them without release from Moscow?

Unless you're asserting that there was no release, then it should be safe to presume that yes, there was some sort of release; otherwise there would have been enough publicity about a MP/EP tiff over ACROD parishes.
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2009, 04:10:38 PM »

I heard one ROCOR clergyman recently make an observation that that by working closely with ROCOR in the USA, the MP can actually get around the restrictions of the TOMOS which limits its activities.

So now they want to disobey the tomos which was granted by them?  Huh It's a nonsense.

And even not openly but creeping in shadows It's idiotic!

One wonders if there is a level of regret w/the MP over the tomos.  After all, how could it be that ROCOR is not at all restricted by it?  Why was there no official outcry from the OCA that ROCOR does not recognize autocephaly?  If there was, please link it.  It seems to be the fair route would have been a tri-unity between OCA, MP and ROCOR.

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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2009, 06:31:04 PM »


One wonders if there is a level of regret w/the MP over the tomos.  After all, how could it be that ROCOR is not at all restricted by it?  Why was there no official outcry from the OCA that ROCOR does not recognize autocephaly?  If there was, please link it.  It seems to be the fair route would have been a tri-unity between OCA, MP and ROCOR.


I've often wondered that, as well, but I remember the Moscow Patriarchate insisting that a representative of the OCA be present for any official pan-Orthodox synod.  You have to give them credit for sticking to their word re: the Tomos.
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2009, 07:43:05 PM »


One wonders if there is a level of regret w/the MP over the tomos.  After all, how could it be that ROCOR is not at all restricted by it?  Why was there no official outcry from the OCA that ROCOR does not recognize autocephaly?  If there was, please link it.  It seems to be the fair route would have been a tri-unity between OCA, MP and ROCOR.


I've often wondered that, as well, but I remember the Moscow Patriarchate insisting that a representative of the OCA be present for any official pan-Orthodox synod.  You have to give them credit for sticking to their word re: the Tomos.

I seem to be getting mixed signals, though.   We have what you say on the one hand, then we have the fact of the MP uniting with ROCOR who simply does not recognize OCA autocephaly (and all of the implications that come with this non-recognition!). 

I remember well before the union (and even a bit into it) there was wild speculation that the non-Russian converts would somehow be steered into the OCA.  With all of the talk of "perserving Russian heritage", "Russianness", etc it almost seemed like a believable compromise that would at least include the OCA into the equation.  The question of the OCA's role in the union was brought up and debated at various ROCOR meetings.  Many people could not understand how ROCOR could unite with the MP and not somehow be tied in administratively with the OCA given the tomos.   This certainly had some of the convert lay people and clergy questioning their future with all of the Russian flag waving going on.  Keep in mind that a good number of the converts who are in ROCOR are there because of their more traditional format as well as the old calendar.   Add to this the writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose which are a big influence, especially his speaking out against ecumenism and the world council of churches.  Of all of the so-called "canonical" jurisdictions ROCOR was pretty much a voice crying out in the wilderness on those issues for many years.  I would almost dare to say people percieved this position as her "brand".  Now, this speculation fear of English speaking converts getting pushed towards the OCA is gone as there is a big push to open up ROCOR missions here in the states.   We recently had the appointment of two non-Russian bishops, one of which is specifically appointed to handle English speaking convert parishes and missions. 

I don't know how this will play into the whole 'jurisdictional unity movement' here in the states but it is good that ROCOR has addressed the concerns, shown major support and care for her English-speaking converts.
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 03:24:35 AM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink

The Continental Congress extended invitations to the Canadian provinces to the United States of America in Congress Assembled, as they did to West and East Florida.  The Canadians declined the offer, even when sent with force of arms, and, unlike Florida, never took the offer up.  I'm just respecting their decision.

What's your point?  The OCA isn't the Church in the United States, it's the Church in North America.  Have the Canadians removed themselves from the continent?
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2009, 12:54:17 PM »

Keep in mind that a good number of the converts who are in ROCOR are there because of their more traditional format as well as the old calendar.

As bad as the WCC is, the NCC is worse, and the AOCA pulled out of the NCC some years ago. Now that I find myself in an OCA parish, I wish they would follow suit.

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I don't know how this will play into the whole 'jurisdictional unity movement' here in the states but it is good that ROCOR has addressed the concerns, shown major support and care for her English-speaking converts.

Amen!

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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2009, 11:52:53 PM »

How about the local Canadian Church?  The Church in Canada?

Unless Canada is no longer located on the North American continent, the Church in America is the Church in Canada.  In this particular instance, "the local American Church" refers to the local church for the continent, not the United States.

However, something tells me you already knew that. Wink


The Continental Congress extended invitations to the Canadian provinces to the United States of America in Congress Assembled, as they did to West and East Florida.  The Canadians declined the offer, even when sent with force of arms, and, unlike Florida, never took the offer up.  I'm just respecting their decision.

What's your point?  The OCA isn't the Church in the United States, it's the Church in North America.  Have the Canadians removed themselves from the continent?

No, but let's be honest: that's not a fact most Americans do or can take cognisance of.  In the Church or outside it: when I was in the OCA, I remember some complaints about the "and Canada" being more of an afterthought.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 11:39:07 PM »

It would be good if the OCA hierarchs would also convince the ROCOR hierarchs to adopt the more accurate Revised Julian Calendar.

Exactly!
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 11:51:41 PM »

The parish in Saginaw, MI did not completely dissapear, it merged with another parish of UOC-USA, Holy Trinity, located in Dearborn, MI. But the facilities of Holy Trinity in Dearborn remained used, not in Saginaw. While I never visited the parish personally, the references / impressions were good.

As for the original list, St. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Manchester, NH, did not appear there. It belongs to MP.

http://www.saintspeterandpaulnh.org/

It is a really nice parish. Most of founding members came from Carpathian mountains over (100) years ago. Fr. Alexander Androsov and his family are most welcoming.

The current list of MP parishes in USA:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&ln=en

Since Canada has been mentioned, MP keeps the similar status for the parishes there:
http://www.orthodoxcanada.net/


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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2009, 01:23:29 AM »

The parish in Saginaw, MI did not completely dissapear, it merged with another parish of UOC-USA, Holy Trinity, located in Dearborn, MI. But the facilities of Holy Trinity in Dearborn remained used, not in Saginaw. While I never visited the parish personally, the references / impressions were good.

As for the original list, St. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Manchester, NH, did not appear there. It belongs to MP.

http://www.saintspeterandpaulnh.org/

It is a really nice parish. Most of founding members came from Carpathian mountains over (100) years ago. Fr. Alexander Androsov and his family are most welcoming.

The current list of MP parishes in USA:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&ln=en

Since Canada has been mentioned, MP keeps the similar status for the parishes there:
http://www.orthodoxcanada.net/


I'm going to St. Barbara's Friday for Presanctified...it's been a year since I was last there....the iconography is stunning!
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2009, 01:44:18 AM »


I'm going to St. Barbara's Friday for Presanctified...it's been a year since I was last there....the iconography is stunning!

The current rector, Fr. Sergey Kipriyanovich did a lot of missionary activities during his services in New York. Later he was one of the very few Orthodox priests in Mongolia. Possibly even the only one.
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2009, 01:59:34 AM »


Esteban, thank you very much for an excellent research! Great job!


That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.

Actually, #4 is still there:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&id=2227&ln=en
http://www.russiansobor.org/

#16 and #25 look like house chapels or home churches. A noble intent with sustainability concerns.

As for #30, economy in Ohio suffers for decades, unfortunately. Many people moved out.
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2009, 02:05:01 AM »


I'm going to St. Barbara's Friday for Presanctified...it's been a year since I was last there....the iconography is stunning!

The current rector, Fr. Sergey Kipriyanovich did a lot of missionary activities during his services in New York. Later he was one of the very few Orthodox priests in Mongolia. Possibly even the only one.

He heard my confession last year....I really like him alot....I wish I visited more but it is a rougher area of town....
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2009, 08:37:59 PM »

Esteban, thank you very much for an excellent research! Great job!

Many thanks!


Boy, you can tell it was 2 a.m--I've even been to that Church! Roll Eyes Thanks for the correction.

The parish in Saginaw, MI did not completely dissapear, it merged with another parish of UOC-USA, Holy Trinity, located in Dearborn, MI. But the facilities of Holy Trinity in Dearborn remained used, not in Saginaw. While I never visited the parish personally, the references / impressions were good.

Very interesting! I wonder if any remaining parishioners actually went over, or whether this was only a merger of assets and such--after all, the drive from Saginaw to Dearborn is somewhere close to 2 hours. And of course, the question of how it came to be under the Ukrainians in light of the provisions of the "Tomos" remains.

As for the original list, St. Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Manchester, NH, did not appear there. It belongs to MP.

Actually, it's #42 (HHGTG alert!) in the list of Patriarchal parishes in the "Tomos."

Thanks for all the info!
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2009, 11:49:29 PM »

Esteban, thank you very much!

Sorry for my mistake regarding the parish in Manchester, NH.
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2009, 01:26:53 AM »


Esteban, thank you very much for an excellent research! Great job!


That leaves 2, 3, 4, 16, 25, 28, and 30 unaccounted for.

Actually, #4 is still there:
http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1299&id=2227&ln=en
http://www.russiansobor.org/

#16 and #25 look like house chapels or home churches. A noble intent with sustainability concerns.

As for #30, economy in Ohio suffers for decades, unfortunately. Many people moved out.

I sang Liturgy at St. Nick's for their feastday last year (and confessed to Fr. Andrei - he's young only 34 or 35 - nice priest).
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 09:45:36 PM »

I sang Liturgy at St. Nick's for their feastday last year (and confessed to Fr. Andrei - he's young only 34 or 35 - nice priest).

Nice! This is great that we are getting more and more young excellent clergy in various jurisdictions.
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« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2009, 09:17:32 AM »

Quote
Does anyone know what is the status of ROCA vis-a-vis the RP parishes and vis-a-vis the OCA?

They have different status. OCA is autocephalous, while ROCA (MP) is autonomous.

An autocephalous church is an independent church, ruled by it's own First Hierarch.

An autonomous church is a church ruled by an autocephalous church, and governed by it's own First Hierarch.

We could say an autocephalous church is like a country, while an autonomous church is like a province of a country. In this way, OCA would be seen as a country, while ROCOR (MP) could be seen as a province of the Moscow Patriarchate.



 
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« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2009, 10:41:37 AM »

With respect to the question above about OCA and ROCOR merging one coming under the other or vis versa, given certain elements of +Jonah's sermon of the unity of the Church in Amercia, it makes me wonder if during his recent meeting with the Patriarch there were some discussions on this topic.  In one place of his sermon he seemed open to the idea of the various american jurisdicions just sort of meeting together, drawing up a new administrative structure for the American Church, a new pan american synod, and then effectively just abandoning the previous jurisdictional structures taking care to preserve and support the various heritages served within the new jurisdictional structure. At least that is the impression I got.

It would certainly make sense for ROCOR and OCA to be united being daughters of the same mother on the same shores. As for the calendar issue, I can't speak for all, I do know, at least within my own parish and diocese there are a sizable number who would welcome a return to the old calendar. I know I would. I suppose bishops or even parishes might be left to use whichever calendar they were used to/preferred.

Then he could relinquish the leadership of the OCA to become the new bishop of the Diocese of the South as was originally intended.  Then the new synod can elect a new Metropolitan...of course it could turn  out to be +Jonah again, but it needn't.  We all need dreams I suppose.
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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2009, 03:24:08 PM »

Just occurred to me that no one had answered the original question. I think that Mark Stokoe of the Orthodox Christians for Accountability has but I cannot find the entry. In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2009, 03:44:31 PM »

With respect to the question above about OCA and ROCOR merging one coming under the other or vis versa, given certain elements of +Jonah's sermon of the unity of the Church in Amercia, it makes me wonder if during his recent meeting with the Patriarch there were some discussions on this topic.  In one place of his sermon he seemed open to the idea of the various american jurisdicions just sort of meeting together, drawing up a new administrative structure for the American Church, a new pan american synod, and then effectively just abandoning the previous jurisdictional structures taking care to preserve and support the various heritages served within the new jurisdictional structure. At least that is the impression I got.

It would certainly make sense for ROCOR and OCA to be united being daughters of the same mother on the same shores. As for the calendar issue, I can't speak for all, I do know, at least within my own parish and diocese there are a sizable number who would welcome a return to the old calendar. I know I would. I suppose bishops or even parishes might be left to use whichever calendar they were used to/preferred.

Then he could relinquish the leadership of the OCA to become the new bishop of the Diocese of the South as was originally intended.  Then the new synod can elect a new Metropolitan...of course it could turn  out to be +Jonah again, but it needn't.  We all need dreams I suppose.

I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want my hopes to rewrite reality.

It would be nice if ROCOR and the Patriarchal parishes could be united and folded into the OCA as a Russian diocese like the Albanian Diocese, the Romanian Diocese and the Bulgarian Diocese.  The Russo-centric parishes could be taken care of.  A Carpatho-Russian Diocese, and a Ukrainian (if there are enough, or if enough Ukrainians would join).  Then the white bread parishes that are left could be organized: and of course the Russian WRO should have their own.  And while I am dreaming, Alaska should be formed into a Amerindian Diocese.

Having everyone in the Holy Synod, it can move/grow to the rule of one bishop per city.

Quote
Does anyone know what is the status of ROCA vis-a-vis the RP parishes and vis-a-vis the OCA?

They have different status. OCA is autocephalous, while ROCA (MP) is autonomous.

An autocephalous church is an independent church, ruled by it's own First Hierarch.

An autonomous church is a church ruled by an autocephalous church, and governed by it's own First Hierarch.

We could say an autocephalous church is like a country, while an autonomous church is like a province of a country. In this way, OCA would be seen as a country, while ROCOR (MP) could be seen as a province of the Moscow Patriarchate.
I'm aware of their status, just how they get along.

According to the Tomos, Russia will not release any parish to anyone but the OCA.  Where does that leave ROCOR in the canonical scheme of things betweeen the OCA and Russia?

Basically, how is everyone grandfathered in?
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2009, 03:46:19 PM »

Just occurred to me that no one had answered the original question. I think that Mark Stokoe of the Orthodox Christians for Accountability has but I cannot find the entry. In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

at last Smiley thanks!

Is Metropolitan Jonah commemorated together with diocesan Bishop in any other jurisdiction?
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2009, 03:48:47 PM »

In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.
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« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2009, 03:53:08 PM »

In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.

Or trouble maker? Tongue

There seems to be no complaint with all the involved hierarchs and faithful.  Unlike a certain primus refusing to recognize the canonical hiearchy in a certain area outside his jurisdiction.
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« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2009, 06:10:17 PM »

In any case, the reason that I gathered was that the MP parishes are on the territory of the OCA and thus Metropolitan Jonah is commemorated at the Great Entrance as the host hierarch. Nothing to do with anything but good inter-church etiquette that flows from autocephaly.  angel

It's awful inter-church etiquette to commemorate a bishop during Liturgy but not submit to him.  Sorry to be a skeptic.

Or trouble maker? Tongue

LOL.  Maybe Wink

Of course, your comment is ironic considering your follow-up, which (yet again) brings up an issue (read: dead horse) not related to this particular discussion:

There seems to be no complaint with all the involved hierarchs and faithful.  Unlike a certain primus refusing to recognize the canonical hiearchy in a certain area outside his jurisdiction.

Who is trying to cause trouble now? :p
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