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Author Topic: The Belief of Christ and Modern Jews  (Read 1329 times) Average Rating: 0
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Myrrh23
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« on: April 01, 2009, 03:11:05 PM »

I'm not sure where this should go or if its been asked, but with all the prophetic verses in the OT that are suppose to support Jesus Christ as the Messiah, why is it that many Modern Jews still do not believe that Jesus is the Christ?
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2009, 03:18:47 PM »



I'm assuming not too many Jews participate at OC.net. You may have to look elsewhere.

Could start here. http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm
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Myrrh23
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2009, 03:20:51 PM »

But with all the Jewish scholars there are, wouldn't they have figured it out by now?
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2009, 03:43:25 PM »

But with all the Jewish scholars there are, wouldn't they have figured it out by now?
Conversion form Judaism to Christianity is a serious and difficult matter.
1. There are actually synagogues (spelling?) That offter anti-Christian apologetics courses.
2. Some of the mondern Jewish bibles are purposely mistranslated so that they can remove OT predictions that make it clear that Jesus is the Christ.
3. Mayny OT prophecies cited in the New Testament are from the Septuagiant (Greek Old Testatment) but that version of the OT was rejegected by a Jewish council late in the first century.
4. For some Jewish families to leave Judaism for Christianity is become dead to the family. In some circumstances, the family will even have a funeral for such a person.
5. Many mondern Jewish people are told over and over how Christians "hate" them. Although not true for most of us here, there is an anti-semitic past in Christian history.
6. Many Jews are given mischaracterizations of Christianity. I once had a Jewish professor say that she could never become a Christian because she would then have to accept Jesus but Jews only believe in one God. Obviously she did not understand Christian Theology.
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 03:59:04 PM »

It's not just a matter of logical proof. Faith is a matter of will, so those with good will believe and those with bad will do not. I have a very close friend who is Jewish, and pointing out how Jesus Christ fulfills the prophecies is a waste of time. He simply chooses to interpret them differently, or cast doubt on them, in order to avoid believing, because to believe undermines his entire existence as a Jew (from his point of view). Only he can open his own heart to the truth. You'll find it's the same whether you're arguing with Jews, Muslims, Catholics, ecumenists etc
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 05:17:47 PM »


IMHO, Jews do not believe in Jesus because they regard Christianity as one of the false religions of the Gentiles (the others). They view even the New Testament as a product of the Hellenistic mind and culture. Thus, the ancient rivalry between the Israelites and Greeks is an important factor in the current Jewish disbelief.
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 07:39:23 PM »


IMHO, Jews do not believe in Jesus because they regard Christianity as one of the false religions of the Gentiles (the others).

Not necessarily. Reform Jews (and perhaps Conservative Jews as well) see Christianity and Islam as "daughter religions", that helped spread monotheism and ethics to Europe and other parts of the world.
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 03:48:14 AM »

Thanks for the information! Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 04:28:38 AM »

Read Romans chapters 9 -11 (11:15;11:25). In chapter 11 verses 8-9 it is been said by David in psalms , while he was in Holy Spirit and saw the crucification of Jesus . For that the eyes of Israel are shut so they can`t see , untill the number of the nations will be fulfilled says Paul . Cause the turning away of Israel brought Salvation to the nations , their comming back and reconciliation will be a ressurection from death for all . But the Church Fathers say that Israel doesn`t come back and reconciliate with God untill Enoch and Elijah come . That is also written in Revelation , after the two witness of God finish with their confession they are killed by the beast and resurrect after three and half days . And an earthquake comes and killes 7000 jews . After that all repent and approach their God with fear and torment . As a reference remmeber to the 7000 jews from the time of Elijah the prophet , the 7000 wich didn`t kneeled before Baal .
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 04:46:27 AM »

Or perhaps the Old Testament Prophecies arn't that convincing, especially considering those who wrote the texts about the man who supposedly fuliflled them would have been thoroughly familiar with them and making the story fit (as well as throwing in a few pagan myths) wouldn't have been all that difficult. Whether or not this actually happened can't be fully proven one way or the other, though you should at least appreciate the skepticism many have.
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 04:54:30 AM »

Or perhaps the Old Testament Prophecies arn't that convincing, especially considering those who wrote the texts about the man who supposedly fuliflled them would have been thoroughly familiar with them and making the story fit (as well as throwing in a few pagan myths) wouldn't have been all that difficult. Whether or not this actually happened can't be fully proven one way or the other, though you should at least appreciate the skepticism many have.

I've always wondered: are the verses that supposedly support Jesus being the Messiah generally found in one neat area in the scrolls or books or whatever, or are they taken from all over the OT, like picking different things here and there at a Smorgasbord? Undecided
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All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 07:50:24 AM »

The views of Messianic Jews http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 09:23:48 AM »

I've always wondered: are the verses that supposedly support Jesus being the Messiah generally found in one neat area in the scrolls or books or whatever, or are they taken from all over the OT, like picking different things here and there at a Smorgasbord? Undecided

The latter.
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 09:41:31 AM »

Welcome back Greeki

Or perhaps the Old Testament Prophecies arn't that convincing
Then it is rather odd that they convinced anyone, let alone perhaps a majority of the Jews.
Quote
According to a Jewish tradition[13], the Rabbis were very scared of early Christianity and knew that the religion would go on to become successful. In order to save future Jews from both death and definite assimilation, the Rabbis of the time sent a man to infiltrate the Christian communities and change the Christian doctrine to become so distinct from Judaism that it is proselytizing will focus on gentiles and not Jews. He was also to change the Christian doctrine to become favorable to Jews, even outlawing the murder of Jews. This man was named Saul, who later became known as Paul. Paul, who may or may not have been a student of Rabban Gamliel,[14] helped shape the Pauline doctrine that forbade Christians from killing Jews[15] and switched the Christian day of rest from Saturday to Sunday to alienate more Jews as a way of maintaining Judaism without having more Jews succumb to the Christian religion[16]. The first pope, Peter Kephas, is known as Shimon Keifa in Jewish tradition, and he was the author of the liturgical poem Nishmas Kol Chai[17]. Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid of Regensburg (1150-1217) even called[18] Peter a righteous man who had good intentions in his seeming apostasy. Others explain that he was not a secret agent of the Pharisee Rabbis in an attempt to undermine Christianity, but rather he was a total apostate and only repented on his deathbed whereupon he wrote Nishmas.
http://rchaimqoton.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html

And then, why the insertion of the curse on the Hebrew Christians into the Amidah, which a Jew is required to say three times every day?  I mean, if our argument wasn't so convincing, why bother?

Quote
, especially considering those who wrote the texts about the man who supposedly fuliflled them would have been thoroughly familiar with them and making the story fit

Then the Jews wouldn't have had to do an about face on the LXX, revise their canon, etc.

How did the Evangelists manage to get the Romans to make their practices of Crucifixion fit Psalm 21?

Quote
(as well as throwing in a few pagan myths)
Yes, often asserted, as here, without details, let alone proof.

So, details forthcoming, Greeki?  And no, Leda and the Swan doesn't count: divine bestiality doth not a Virgin birth make.

Virgil did get it right in Ecologue 4.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Verg.+Ecl.+4

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wouldn't have been all that difficult. Whether or not this actually happened can't be fully proven one way or the other,
yes, it can.
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though you should at least appreciate the skepticism many have.
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 04:15:50 PM »

I've always wondered: are the verses that supposedly support Jesus being the Messiah generally found in one neat area in the scrolls or books or whatever, or are they taken from all over the OT, like picking different things here and there at a Smorgasbord? Undecided

The latter.

Ok, my Smorgasbord comment was a little inappropriate. I apologize. Now that I think about it, it's probably more like a continuous tap of the shoulder on mankind through the Prophets. Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »

I've always wondered: are the verses that supposedly support Jesus being the Messiah generally found in one neat area in the scrolls or books or whatever, or are they taken from all over the OT, like picking different things here and there at a Smorgasbord? Undecided

The latter.

Ok, my Smorgasbord comment was a little inappropriate.

Indeed. Smorgasbord is a pagan Nordic practice. Shocked
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