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Author Topic: Possible solutions to the Issue of Esphigmenou  (Read 3349 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: March 28, 2009, 10:57:33 PM »

I have an idea. If you feel so strongly for the occupants of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou, why don't you petition your Bishop to receive them?

That's an idea.  But I am told you have the ear of His All-Holiness in Constantinople.  It would probably make more sense if you petition him to seek another solution with these monks rather than starvation and deprivation of medical care and freedom of movement and other civil rights guaranteed by the EU.  Many of these monks have lived in Esphigmenou for decades- 20 years, 30 years and 40 years.  It is their home and the better solution is to find a way for them to remain.  That is much better than the Hellenic Republic causing them to qualify for Refugee Status under the 1951 UN Refugee Definition and heaven only knows how that will effect Greece's EU membership.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 11:17:10 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 11:51:47 PM »

That's an idea.
Then why not do it? Petition your Bishop today to receive the occupants of the Holy Monastery.
From our point of view, they are schismatics, but to say they are "persecuted", yet have been tolerated for six years since they were officially deemed to be schismatic by the Sacred Community of the Holy Mountain doesn't speak to me of persecution, but tolerance. They have even been asked by the Sacred Community to find just one single Bishop to commemorate with whom the Sacred Community is in Communion other than the Ecumenical Patriarch, so that they may continue to be a part of Mount Athos and in Communion with them. Since the Rapprochement, your Bishop would be one such Bishop. So perhaps you are in an even better position than I. Smiley
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 11:52:40 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2009, 12:08:21 AM »

Don't be hard on Irish Hermit. Who would have thought that it is within his power to resolve this issue?
The Sacred Community of the Holy Mountain has said:
Quote
"time and again the suggestion was made to those in the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou for them to choose for themselves and bring whomever they wish that has ecclesiastical and administrative communion with the rest of the Holy Mountain in order for Them to assume the governance of the Monastery and for Them to remain undistracted in their spiritual duties inside the Monastery or in fixings; but they did not even accept to discuss this."
www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/esfigmenouE1.doc
If Irish Hermit can bring his Bishop to be the Bishop which the monks commemorate, then this whole issue will be resolved immediately. He obviously cares deeply about this issue and seeks a peaceful resolution, so here is his chance.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 12:08:39 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 12:21:48 AM »

Don't be hard on Irish Hermit. Who would have thought that it is within his power to resolve this issue?


Do you think so?  You suggested I petition my bishop.  Well, I can petition my bishop for anything, I suppose,  I can petition him to consecrate you as the Greek Old Calendarist bishop of Sydney but will he do that for me?    What do you think?   Grin
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2009, 12:24:10 AM »

Don't be hard on Irish Hermit. Who would have thought that it is within his power to resolve this issue?


Do you think so?  You suggested I petition my bishop.  Well, I can petition my bishop for anything, I suppose,  I can petition him to consecrate you as the Greek Old Calendarist bishop of Sydney but will he do that for me?    What do you think?   Grin

Why wouldn't Vladyka Hilarion receive the monks of Esphigmenou? Or is it the case that they will not receive him? Is that what you are afraid of?
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2009, 12:28:08 AM »

If Irish Hermit can bring his Bishop to be the Bishop which the monks commemorate, then this whole issue will be resolved immediately.

Um, history suggests that your suggestion is a bit optimistic.   The last monks on Mount Athos to commemorate our Metropolitan in New York were the small brotherhood at the Skete of the Prophet Elia.   They were deported from the Mountain.

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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2009, 12:33:36 AM »

Don't be hard on Irish Hermit. Who would have thought that it is within his power to resolve this issue?


Do you think so?  You suggested I petition my bishop.  Well, I can petition my bishop for anything, I suppose,  I can petition him to consecrate you as the Greek Old Calendarist bishop of Sydney but will he do that for me?    What do you think?   Grin

Why wouldn't Vladyka Hilarion receive the monks of Esphigmenou? Or is it the case that they will not receive him? Is that what you are afraid of?

I think it is a case of "once bitten, twice shy."   The Russian Church Abroad has already experienced offering a home to a monastery of Greek monks - Holy Transfiguration in Boston - and that ended in tears all-round.   That was a dreadful experiment.     So in this case I am all for a good dose of phyletism.   These monks need a bishop of their own phylos.
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2009, 12:37:03 AM »

Um, history suggests that your suggestion is a bit optimistic.   The last monks on Mount Athos to commemorate our Metropolitan in New York were the small brotherhood at the Skete of the Prophet Elia.   They were deported from the Mountain.
Ah, but that was before the Rapproachment wasn't it? It's all different now that you recognise the Patriarch of Moscow. And anyway, were the monks of Prophet Elias Skete in Communion with Esphigmenou?
But that's all past now that you are officially under the Patriarchate.
Vladika Hilarion (whom I've met by the way and think is a wonderful Heirarch and a truly holy man) could quite easily ask to be accepted as the Bishop which the occupants of Esphigmenou would commemorate, and since he is in full Communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, the Sacred Community would accept his Commemoration as re-establishing Communion between them and the occupants of Esphigmenou.
Why are you so resistant to this solution? Do you think Vladika Hilarion would not agree to it? Would you like me to ask him for you? I could point out your support of this solution on this thread if you like. Have you lost his contact details? They are here:
http://www.rocor.org.au/news/?page_id=2
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 01:02:27 AM »

[Vladika Hilarion (whom I've met by the way and think is a wonderful Heirarch and a truly holy man) could quite easily ask to be accepted as the Bishop which the occupants of Esphigmenou would commemorate, and since he is in full Communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, the Sacred Community would accept his Commemoration as re-establishing Communion between them and the occupants of Esphigmenou.
Why are you so resistant to this solution? Do you think Vladika Hilarion would not agree to it? Would you like me to ask him for you? I could point out your support of this solution on this thread if you like.

I have not supported your rather strange suggestion.   Please do not misrepresent me.

You don't even make total sense.  You write (see above): "Why are you so resistant to this solution?" and three sentences later you contradict yourself: "I could point out your support of this solution..."   Huh
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 01:05:47 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 01:05:22 AM »

[Vladika Hilarion (whom I've met by the way and think is a wonderful Heirarch and a truly holy man) could quite easily ask to be accepted as the Bishop which the occupants of Esphigmenou would commemorate, and since he is in full Communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, the Sacred Community would accept his Commemoration as re-establishing Communion between them and the occupants of Esphigmenou.
Why are you so resistant to this solution? Do you think Vladika Hilarion would not agree to it? Would you like me to ask him for you? I could point out your support of this solution on this thread if you like.

I have not supported your rather strange suggestion.   Please do not put misrepresent me.

Firstly, why do you say it is a "strange suggestion"?
And secondly, you said:

I have an idea. If you feel so strongly for the occupants of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou, why don't you petition your Bishop to receive them?

That's an idea.

So I'll fax Vladyka now shall I?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 01:06:24 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2009, 01:08:38 AM »

I have not supported your rather strange suggestion.   Please do not put misrepresent me.

Firstly, why do you say it is a "strange suggestion"?

Dear George,

Anyone who knows the ways of the Church would see that it is rather strange.

First of all, I would not make a fool of myself by asking my Metropolitan to do such a thing.  This is a Greek matter.  When the local Greek priests have a difficulty with their Bishop I don't ring them up and suggest to them that they could come into the Russian Church Abroad.  What a thought!   I am sure you have not made any such suggestions to Greek priests in Sydney either.
 
However you seem to think your suggestion has merit.  So the obvious first step is to ascertain if it is acceptable to the Ecumenical Patriarch.  Protocol prevents me approaching His Most Divine All-Holiness even if I wanted to (which I don't.)   Perhaps you can arrange a way to contact him and seek his blessing.    Then you would need to ascertain if it were acceptable to the Brotherhood of Esphigmenou.  Only after these two steps could you approach His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion without getting smothered in embarrassment!   Wink 
 
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2009, 01:12:28 AM »

[Vladika Hilarion (whom I've met by the way and think is a wonderful Heirarch and a truly holy man) could quite easily ask to be accepted as the Bishop which the occupants of Esphigmenou would commemorate, and since he is in full Communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, the Sacred Community would accept his Commemoration as re-establishing Communion between them and the occupants of Esphigmenou.
Why are you so resistant to this solution? Do you think Vladika Hilarion would not agree to it? Would you like me to ask him for you? I could point out your support of this solution on this thread if you like.

I have not supported your rather strange suggestion.   Please do not put misrepresent me.

Firstly, why do you say it is a "strange suggestion"?
And secondly, you said:

I have an idea. If you feel so strongly for the occupants of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou, why don't you petition your Bishop to receive them?

That's an idea.

So I'll fax Vladyka now shall I?

I would suggest that you read my previous message about ascertaining whether your suggestion is acceptable to the Ecumenical Patriarch before you make yourself look foolish.   Grin

I don't support your suggestion at all.  It is just a whimsy on your part.

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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2009, 01:21:10 AM »

First of all, I would not make a fool of myself by asking my Metropolitan to do such a thing.  This is a Greek matter.  When the local Greek priests have a difficulty with their Bishop I don't ring them up and suggest to them that they could come into the Russian Church Abroad.  What a thought!   I am sure you have not made any such suggestions to Greek priests in Sydney either.
Wait a minute. What do you mean "A Greek matter"? Is the Holy Monastery of Hilandar (Serbian) "a Greek matter"? Is the Holy Monastery of Zographou (Bulgarian) "a Greek matter"? Is the Holy Monastery of Panteleiomon (Russian) "a Greek matter"?

Are you saying that the stance of the occupants of Esphigmenou is "a Greek matter"?
 
However you seem to think your suggestion has merit.  So the obvious first step is to ascertain if it is acceptable to the Ecumenical Patriarch.
No. The obvious first step is to see whether this solution is acceptable to the Sacred Community of Mount Athos, and clearly it is according to what they have said:
Quote
"time and again the suggestion was made to those in the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou for them to choose for themselves and bring whomever they wish that has ecclesiastical and administrative communion with the rest of the Holy Mountain in order for Them to assume the governance of the Monastery and for Them to remain undistracted in their spiritual duties inside the Monastery or in fixings; but they did not even accept to discuss this."
www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/esfigmenouE1.doc
This is all that the Sacred Community is asking for, so perhaps you could explain this to Valdyka Hilarion. Or I will if you like. I could send him the Letter from the Sacred Community and point out to him that you think it's a good idea that he be the Bishop the monks commemorate. Why don't you want your Bishop to be in Communion with the occupants of Esphigmenou when you so valiantly defended them on this thread? Don't let all your concern and good work be in vain. Perhaps you are shy? Don't worry, I will show Vladyka all the wonderful things you have said on this thread and make the suggestion to him for you.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 01:22:36 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 01:33:07 AM »


This is all that the Sacred Community is asking for, so perhaps you could explain this to Valdyka Hilarion. Or I will if you like. I could send him the Letter from the Sacred Community and point out to him that you think it's a good idea that he be the Bishop the monks commemorate.

I think from the several messages I have written that it is obvious that you would be taking a calumny upon your soul if you told him that.

What's got into your this evening?  First you say that I am strenously resisting the suggestion, and three sentences later you say I am supporting it.   George, it's really better if you allow people to speak for themselves rather than attributing quite contradictory statments to them.   Sad
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2009, 01:37:24 AM »

I have an idea. If you feel so strongly for the occupants of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou, why don't you petition your Bishop to receive them?

That's an idea. 
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2009, 01:39:36 AM »

. Why don't you want your Bishop to be in Communion with the occupants of Esphigmenou when you so valiantly defended them on this thread?

You're not reading what I write, I think. I've already pointed out to you that while I was a monk in the Patriarchate of Serbia the Serbian Church supported these monks even though none of our bishops were in communion with them.

Also you probably know that the Patriarch of Russia has written a stong letter in support of the Esphigmenou monks.  He likewise is not in communion with them.

You seem to enmeshed in a kind of illogical thinking which confuses being supportive with being in canonical communion.
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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2009, 01:41:35 AM »

I have an idea. If you feel so strongly for the occupants of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou, why don't you petition your Bishop to receive them?

That's an idea. 

Great idea, George, and don't forget to tell him that I suggested he consecrate you as the Greek Old Calendarist bishop of Sydney.
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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2009, 01:44:30 AM »

Are you back-peddling now? Do you think it's a bad idea to re-establish Communion between the Sacred Community of the Holy Mountain and the occupants of Esphigmenou by them commemorating a Bishop which the Sacred Community is in Communion with as they have requested? Why do you think it's a bad idea now? I thought you were seeking a peaceful solution to this?
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2009, 01:47:42 AM »

. Why don't you want your Bishop to be in Communion with the occupants of Esphigmenou when you so valiantly defended them on this thread?

You're not reading what I write, I think. I've already pointed out to you that while I was a monk in the Patriarchate of Serbia the Serbian Church supported these monks even though none of our bishops were in communion with them.

Also you probably know that the Patriarch of Russia has written a stong letter in support of the Esphigmenou monks.  He likewise is not in communion with them.

You seem to enmeshed in a kind of illogical thinking which confuses being supportive with being in canonical communion.
Oh, I see now. What you want me to tell Vladyka is that you think that it's OK for schismatics to be on the Holy Mountain. Got it now.
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2009, 01:57:04 AM »

Are you back-peddling now? Do you think it's a bad idea to re-establish Communion between the Sacred Community of the Holy Mountain and the occupants of Esphigmenou by them commemorating a Bishop which the Sacred Community is in Communion with as they have requested? Why do you think it's a bad idea now? I thought you were seeking a peaceful solution to this?


Sorry, George, but most of what you are saying does not make sense to me.

Anyway, why should the opinion of an Irish hermit whom you do not believe is a priest be of any importance?  That doesn't make sense to me either.
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2009, 02:05:47 AM »

[Oh, I see now. What you want me to tell Vladyka is that you think that it's OK for schismatics to be on the Holy Mountain. Got it now.

Hey, Vladyka, there's somone impersonating a priest on this internet forum but sometimes he's brilliant and he's got it all worked out how to solve a problem in Greece.  He's quite psychotic of course.  I mean, you'd have to be psychotic to be pretending to be a priest.   He's such an obvious fraud.  But I believe that in his madness he has found the solution and you need to know about it.  Well, that's just my personal opinion because after all everybody can see he is unbalanced.   Smiley Grin Smiley  If you're not interested in this solution I am thinking that maybe some other Churches might be - the Church of Estonia or maybe Finland.  Or what about Mt Sinai - after all they are all monastics.  Yes, maybe Sinai is the best bet.   laugh

Mods, I am juit joining in George's spirit of fun and playfulness here.  And yes, this is totally unserious post so please delete it if you like.
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2009, 02:23:05 AM »

Or perhaps you could simply read your own Synod's decrees since Rapproachment and those leading up to it which lament and repent of ROCOR's creation of and Communion with schismatic groups:
Quote
3. The Eucharistic communion in which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia exists, formally, at any rate, with uncanonical groups which have separated for various reasons from other Local Orthodox Churches, some active on the canonical territories of Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek Churches. Recently these groups have tried to also expand their activity on our canonical territory and the territory of the Georgian Patriarch. [Alas, we have been guilty of creating schismatic groups and are in Eucharistic communion with schismatic churches. Bp. A.]
http://www.synod.com/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/bishalextopastors.html
Which "schismatic groups" created by ROCOR is Bishop Alexander talking about here?
So, may be the real issue, Irish Hermit, is that your own Synod has now re-evaluated it's position and is distancing itself from schismatics?
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2009, 02:26:23 AM »

Eeeeeeoooouch, hohohohoh..hot potato, hot potato, hot.....
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2009, 02:27:07 AM »

Eeeeeeoooouch, hohohohoh..hot potato, hot potato, hot.....
LOL!  Cheesy Indeed!
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2009, 02:49:17 AM »

Or perhaps you could simply read your own Synod's decrees since Rapproachment and those leading up to it which lament and repent of ROCOR's creation of and Communion with schismatic groups:
Quote
3. The Eucharistic communion in which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia exists, formally, at any rate, with uncanonical groups which have separated for various reasons from other Local Orthodox Churches, some active on the canonical territories of Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek Churches. Recently these groups have tried to also expand their activity on our canonical territory and the territory of the Georgian Patriarch. [Alas, we have been guilty of creating schismatic groups and are in Eucharistic communion with schismatic churches. Bp. A.]
http://www.synod.com/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/bishalextopastors.html
Which "schismatic groups" created by ROCOR is Bishop Alexander talking about here?
So, may be the real issue, Irish Hermit, is that your own Synod has now re-evaluated it's position and is distancing itself from schismatics?

Bishop Alexander (may his memory be everlasting) concludes with words that urge patience and compassion for those with whom we are not in unity.   This was in 2004 when we were in schism from Moscow, in schism from Constantinople.  We maintained eucharistic unity only with the holy Churches of Jerusalem and Serbia.   Slowly, organically, as he says, unity will be returned.  And so it was, in 2007, after 80 years of brokenness.


"Under such conditions, one would think, the process of rapprochement between the parts of the Russian Church torn asunder would have commenced with a calmer and more thoughtful tempo. Then, soon after Perestroika, both parts of the Russian Church should have agreed not to sue each other, not to quarrel over property, but in a friendly atmosphere discuss existing problems. Folk wisdom says: "a bad peace is better than a good war." Approaching each other with good will, we would have avoided the mistakes and injuries wrought upon each other in wrath.

"Regarding the administrative side of the rapprochement of our Churches, I feel that this question must not be forced, that it is better to retain the status quo. The matter of administrative unity of the Russian Church I would leave to Divine Providence."



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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2009, 02:56:12 AM »

So, may be the real issue, Irish Hermit, is that your own Synod has now re-evaluated it's position and is distancing itself from schismatics?

As you would know, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has given shelter to a Greek Old Calendarist monastery in Marrickville headed by Igoumenos Kosmas (Vasilopoulos.)   Is this seen as schismatic by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and faithful?  I have been told by Greeks whom I know in Sydney that they would never visit there for that reason.


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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2009, 02:57:38 AM »

Or perhaps you could simply read your own Synod's decrees since Rapproachment and those leading up to it which lament and repent of ROCOR's creation of and Communion with schismatic groups:
Quote
3. The Eucharistic communion in which the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia exists, formally, at any rate, with uncanonical groups which have separated for various reasons from other Local Orthodox Churches, some active on the canonical territories of Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek Churches. Recently these groups have tried to also expand their activity on our canonical territory and the territory of the Georgian Patriarch. [Alas, we have been guilty of creating schismatic groups and are in Eucharistic communion with schismatic churches. Bp. A.]
http://www.synod.com/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/bishalextopastors.html
Which "schismatic groups" created by ROCOR is Bishop Alexander talking about here?
So, may be the real issue, Irish Hermit, is that your own Synod has now re-evaluated it's position and is distancing itself from schismatics?

Bishop Alexander (may his memory be everlasting) concludes with words that urge patience and compassion for those with whom we are not in unity.   This was in 2004 when we were in schism from Moscow, in schism from Constantinople.  We maintained eucharistic unity only with the holy Churches of Jerusalem and Serbia.   Slowly, organically, as he says, unity will be returned.  And so it was, in 2007, after 80 years of brokenness.


"Under such conditions, one would think, the process of rapprochement between the parts of the Russian Church torn asunder would have commenced with a calmer and more thoughtful tempo. Then, soon after Perestroika, both parts of the Russian Church should have agreed not to sue each other, not to quarrel over property, but in a friendly atmosphere discuss existing problems. Folk wisdom says: "a bad peace is better than a good war." Approaching each other with good will, we would have avoided the mistakes and injuries wrought upon each other in wrath.

"Regarding the administrative side of the rapprochement of our Churches, I feel that this question must not be forced, that it is better to retain the status quo. The matter of administrative unity of the Russian Church I would leave to Divine Providence."


So then, why has ROCOR broken Communion with the GOC- a Church it participated in bringing into existence and is in Communion with the occupants of Esphigmenou? Is that part of this "maintaining the status quo"?
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2009, 03:01:32 AM »

As you would know, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has given shelter to a Greek Old Calendarist monastery in Marrickville headed by Igoumenos Kosmas (Vasilopoulos.)   Is this seen as schismatic by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and faithful?  I have been told by Greeks whom I know in Sydney that they would never visit there for that reason.
Err..."Given shelter"? What actually happened was that this monastery was received by ROCOR from the Greek Old Calendarists. They are now Canonical and we are in Communion. Why can't you do the same for Esphigmenou?
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2009, 03:07:04 AM »


http://www.synod.com/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/bishalextopastors.html

Which "schismatic groups" created by ROCOR is Bishop Alexander talking about here?

In the years following Perestroika, from 1991 onwards, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad created both schismatic Dioceses and Bishops as well as parishes on the canonical territory of the Church of Russia.  This was controversial within ROCA from day one.  Some of our bishops were opposed, some in favour.
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2009, 03:13:58 AM »

Why can't you do the same for Esphigmenou?

Look at it like this, George.   If a Russian monastery on the canonical territory of the Russian Church, let's say in Petersburg or in Samarkand, were having difficulties with the diocesan bishop, would you recommend that it be taken under the control of Constantinople or of the OCA or of Alexandria?

You're just not making much sense to me.
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2009, 03:23:44 AM »

Look at it like this, George.   If a Russian monastery on the canonical territory of the Russian Church, let's say in Petersburg or in Samarkand, were having difficulties with the diocesan bishop, would you recommend that it be taken under the control of Constantinople or of the OCA or of Alexandria?
Of course I would! If the former meant that they were schismatic and the latter meant that we were in Communion, of course I would! Isn't that exactly what the Patriarchate of Serbia has done in re-establishing the Archbishopric of Ohrid in the territoty of a schismatic church?? Isn't that exactly what ROCOR has done by receiving the Monastery of the Archangel Michael in Marrickville from a schismatic church?
What are you talking about? Huh

You seem to forget that the Sacred Community of the Holy Mountain- all the other monasteries- have asked the occupants of Esphigmenou to find just one single Bishop to commemorate other than the Patriarch of Constantinople with whom the other monasteries are in Communion, no matter what jurisdiction, with whom the Sacred Community is in Communion with, and that would be enough to re-establish Communion- and they have not. They could not find one single Bishop in the entire Cosmos to commemorate who was in Communion with the Athonite Monasteries.
Here, again, is what the Sacred Community said:
Quote
"time and again the suggestion was made to those in the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou for them to choose for themselves and bring whomever they wish that has ecclesiastical and administrative communion with the rest of the Holy Mountain in order for Them to assume the governance of the Monastery and for Them to remain undistracted in their spiritual duties inside the Monastery or in fixings; but they did not even accept to discuss this."
www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/esfigmenouE1.doc
Before the Rapprochement with the Moscow Patriarchate, ROCOR was not in Ecclesiastical and Administrative Communion with the Sacred Community, but now, by virtue of being under the Moscow Patriarchate since the Rapprochement, ROCOR is in Ecclesiastical and Administrative Communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and hence, also with the Sacred Community of Mount Athos. They fit the criteria now, so why not do what the Sacred Community is asking for?
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2009, 03:58:08 AM »

 Roll Eyes
I see you're not interested in dialogue but just want a soapbox.
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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2009, 04:00:53 AM »

Possible solutions to the Issue of Esphigmenou
 
I would have thought that the solution is now firmly in place.
 
You brought this topic back to life with the Court's decision (here) that the legal Brotherhood of Esphigmenou (five monks, I think, presently in residence at Simonopetra) is entitled to take possession of Esphigmenou after the expulsion of the current team of 90 imposters who are illegally in possession.
 
The legal Igumenos, Archimandrite Chrysostomos, issued his own letter last month (here)  stating that they are speedily proceeding with the plans to take legal possession.
 
The matter seems to be settled. A solution is already in place.
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2009, 04:04:07 AM »

So you're solution is to establish schismatics on the Holy Mountain, the Garden of Panagia.
I'll let Vladyka know.
Nice chatting.
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2009, 04:09:43 AM »

And yes. I'm being ironic.
you obviously don't care to discuss this.
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« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2009, 04:13:16 AM »

So you're solution is to establish schismatics on the Holy Mountain, the Garden of Panagia.
I'll let Vladyka know.
Nice chatting.

Well, one of the solutions which has already been tried is starving the monks to death and also hastening the deaths of the elderly ones by denying them the needed medications, medical care, and heating.  The monks of the Serbian monastery of Hilandar helped to prevent these inhumane deprivations of basic human rights taking a further toll.  

Are you aware how many monks have already died through this "solution?"  Isn't it three or four?  Plus a fifth monk who was killed in a tractor accident when the Police would not let him back in the monastery.

The whole situation is truly tragic.
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« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2009, 04:16:00 AM »

And yes. I'm being ironic.
you obviously don't care to discuss this.

I don't care to discuss such strange "solutions" as commemorating a Metropolitan in New York or an Archbishop on Sinai or a Patriarch in Moscow.   
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« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2009, 04:22:29 AM »

I don't care to discuss such strange "solutions" as commemorating a Metropolitan in New York or an Archbishop on Sinai or a Patriarch in Moscow.  
But you find commemorating a second Bishop of Athens who is not in Communion with anyone you are in Communion with OK?
And don't you, in New Zealand, commemorate the Metropolitan of New York?
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2009, 04:33:49 AM »

George,

This is all a bit of a waste of time.  There are no alternative solutions.  The solution has already been decided a fortnight ago by the Court.


The 90 illegal monks at Esphigmenou will be expelled.  Where to, nobody knows.  Onto the streets of Ouranopolis, where the locals may take pity and provide them with rooms and food.   Onto the streets of Thessaloniki where the elderly ones may die in the parks and back streets?

And once they are gone, the legal brotherhood with its five monks may move into Esphigmenou. 

End of story.  Solution found.   Justice and Christian charity have been well served.
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2009, 06:33:56 AM »

George,

This is all a bit of a waste of time.  There are no alternative solutions.  The solution has already been decided a fortnight ago by the Court.


The 90 illegal monks at Esphigmenou will be expelled.  Where to, nobody knows.  Onto the streets of Ouranopolis, where the locals may take pity and provide them with rooms and food.   Onto the streets of Thessaloniki where the elderly ones may die in the parks and back streets?

And once they are gone, the legal brotherhood with its five monks may move into Esphigmenou. 

End of story.  Solution found.   Justice and Christian charity have been well served.

Won't ROCOR have any pity on them and receive them?
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« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2009, 06:43:34 AM »

And why would the GOC let them die on park benches?
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