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« on: March 25, 2009, 04:15:06 PM »

Hello everyone,

In the Greek Churchess I have witnessed (both New and Old Calendar) I note that Annunication is handled like any normal feast.

At St Vladimir's when I was there, we had Matins the day of the feast, and then typika plus Vesperal Divine Liturgy at 3 pm (the day of the feast, not the night before).

Is this a Sabbas vs Violakis typikon issue?
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 04:16:55 PM »

At my GOA parish we did a normal liturgy today.  On Mt. Athos they did a normal liturgy when I was there a few years back this time of year. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 04:31:50 PM »

My a parish is the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary...a big day, of course.
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 04:39:34 PM »

Does your asking this question today mean that you endorse the new calendar?
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 04:40:08 PM »

When this day falls on weekday of lent,the DL takes place after Vespers.
When this day falls on Saturday or Sunday,the DL takes place after sixth hour(as usual).
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 04:40:30 PM »

Does your asking this question today mean that you endorse the new calendar?

Funny Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 04:40:41 PM »

When this day falls on weekday of lent,the DL takes place after Vespers.
When this day falls on Saturday or Sunday,the DL takes place after sixth hour(as usual).

According to which typikon? That is what I am trying to figure out.
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 04:54:00 PM »

When this day falls on weekday of lent,the DL takes place after Vespers.
When this day falls on Saturday or Sunday,the DL takes place after sixth hour(as usual).

According to which typikon? That is what I am trying to figure out.

Sorry Pater...I have no typikon before me this moment....
But I think this is the general spirit of Typikon of St.Sabbas the Sanctified: On the day of strict fasting,DL take palce after vespers——you break your fast immediately after the DL——no one fast after the Eucharist.
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 04:54:26 PM »

I know that many greek parishes begin liturgy immediately after the matins in despite of the day. I do not think this is the way of akrebeia——yes,we can eat fish,oil and wine on this feast ;but if it's a weekday of lent,we still keep fasting till sunset,isn't it? Huh
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 05:06:38 PM »

I know that many greek parishes begin liturgy immediately after the matins in despite of the day. I do not think this is the way of akrebeia——yes,we can eat fish,oil and wine on this feast ;but if it's a weekday of lent,we still keep fasting till sunset,isn't it? Huh

It's not that they just push it back (some Russian parishes have it at 9 am according to some calendars I see) but they Vesperal liturgy is not even done--it is Matins followed by normal liturgy.
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 05:13:27 PM »

I know that many greek parishes begin liturgy immediately after the matins in despite of the day. I do not think this is the way of akrebeia——yes,we can eat fish,oil and wine on this feast ;but if it's a weekday of lent,we still keep fasting till sunset,isn't it? Huh

It's not that they just push it back (some Russian parishes have it at 9 am according to some calendars I see) but they Vesperal liturgy is not even done--it is Matins followed by normal liturgy.
That is how the parish in Ash Grove did it this year. Our priest had to be out of town, so the parish in Springfield joined them for Liturgy. Our priest gave those of us who could not get off work today a blessing to say a reader's Liturgy last night, but it too was Hours followed by the normal reader's Liturgy. Both we and Ash Grove are OCA.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 05:15:24 PM »

I know that many greek parishes begin liturgy immediately after the matins in despite of the day. I do not think this is the way of akrebeia——yes,we can eat fish,oil and wine on this feast ;but if it's a weekday of lent,we still keep fasting till sunset,isn't it? Huh

It's not that they just push it back (some Russian parishes have it at 9 am according to some calendars I see) but they Vesperal liturgy is not even done--it is Matins followed by normal liturgy.

Yes,this is what exactly I said,they begin DL immediately after the matins,but not combined with vespers.
By the way,I do not agree to serve DL after midday:this is "outdated antiquated practice" but not "traditional". On mountain athos,all "vesperal liturgy" be finished before noon.
Since today almost all of us do not fast(without even water)till sunset,to serve vesperal liturgy on it's original hour do not cause any good but only modernisation(to reduce the fasting before Holy Communion,for example).
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 05:34:11 PM »


Yes,this is what exactly I said,they begin DL immediately after the matins,but not combined with vespers.

No, it's not "exactly" what you said--you said they started liturgy after Matins, but I wanted to clarify whether it was Vesperal liturgy or "regular" liturgy--I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with what you say.
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 05:51:51 PM »


Yes,this is what exactly I said,they begin DL immediately after the matins,but not combined with vespers.

No, it's not "exactly" what you said--you said they started liturgy after Matins, but I wanted to clarify whether it was Vesperal liturgy or "regular" liturgy--I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with what you say.
For many greek parishes,there is no more vesperal liturgy of Evangelismos(Annunication ).They always serve it as a  "regular" liturgy,  after Matins.
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 06:27:27 PM »

When this day falls on weekday of lent,the DL takes place after Vespers.
When this day falls on Saturday or Sunday,the DL takes place after sixth hour(as usual).

According to which typikon? That is what I am trying to figure out.

Sorry Pater...I have no typikon before me this moment....
But I think this is the general spirit of Typikon of St.Sabbas the Sanctified: On the day of strict fasting,DL take palce after vespers——you break your fast immediately after the DL——no one fast after the Eucharist.

No - in any Typikon I've seen, the feast of the Annunciation is a non-Lenten day unless it falls on Holy Friday or Holy Saturday, when the feast is moved.  So Liturgy is called for before Vespers (Matins, 1st hr, 6th hr - whatever your usual pattern is).  It alters the nature of the day it falls on regardless of weekday or weekend (except, of course, the aforementioned cases, and Pascha).
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 09:56:36 PM »

I'm at St. Vladimir's right now...we celebrated festal matins this morning, then at 3 PM we had 9th hour, typika, and vesperal liturgy.

However, at the Greek and Antiochian parishes back home, we always got together at Annunciation Cathedral the morning of the feast for divine liturgy; just like any other feast.

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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2009, 10:04:48 PM »

I'm at St. Vladimir's right now...we celebrated festal matins this morning, then at 3 PM we had 9th hour, typika, and vesperal liturgy.

However, at the Greek and Antiochian parishes back home, we always got together at Annunciation Cathedral the morning of the feast for divine liturgy; just like any other feast.

Would you mind asking someone who is "in the know" why you practice it that way @ St. Vladimir's?
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2009, 07:29:23 AM »

I was just reading about this in the ΣΥΣΤΗΜΑ ΤΥΠΙΚΟΥ by Fr. Constantinos Papagianis (ekdosis 2006). 

There it said that there is an "ancient tradition" and an "athonite" tradition.  I could scan the page and put it up if it's not a copyright issue.  It would be all in greek though...
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2009, 08:01:08 AM »

I was just reading about this in the ΣΥΣΤΗΜΑ ΤΥΠΙΚΟΥ by Fr. Constantinos Papagianis (ekdosis 2006). 

There it said that there is an "ancient tradition" and an "athonite" tradition.  I could scan the page and put it up if it's not a copyright issue.  It would be all in greek though... 

There are enough people who will translate...
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2009, 09:01:56 AM »

The first two pages (the first page being primary) are the explanation I was talking about.  I added the third page just to round it out in terms of information.  Let me know if you want the whole thing, it's like 12 pages of "what if's"...


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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2009, 09:28:33 AM »

When this day falls on weekday of lent,the DL takes place after Vespers.
When this day falls on Saturday or Sunday,the DL takes place after sixth hour(as usual).

According to which typikon? That is what I am trying to figure out.

Sorry Pater...I have no typikon before me this moment....
But I think this is the general spirit of Typikon of St.Sabbas the Sanctified: On the day of strict fasting,DL take palce after vespers——you break your fast immediately after the DL——no one fast after the Eucharist.

No - in any Typikon I've seen, the feast of the Annunciation is a non-Lenten day unless it falls on Holy Friday or Holy Saturday, when the feast is moved.  So Liturgy is called for before Vespers (Matins, 1st hr, 6th hr - whatever your usual pattern is).  It alters the nature of the day it falls on regardless of weekday or weekend (except, of course, the aforementioned cases, and Pascha).

Yes,this feast is not a xerophagy day,but you cannot say it's a "non-Lenten day".

If this feast falls on a weekday of great lent,the hours are lenten;for vespers and matins,the hymns of triodion are chanted(together with the hymns of the feast),and the prayer of Osios Ephraim be said with great metanoiai.So,there are very clear lenten characters for this day(if falls on weekday).

What do you mean " when the feast is moved."? Shocked
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2009, 09:47:59 AM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:

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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2009, 10:05:30 AM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:



You're welcome!  I also thought letter "a" was significant, as well as "b".  Unfortunatley it doesn't go into TOO much detail on the different practices, but it does give a nice basic explanation. 
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2009, 10:16:54 AM »

Yes,this feast is not a xerophagy day,but you cannot say it's a "non-Lenten day".

Yes, I can, and quite easily.

If this feast falls on a weekday of great lent,the hours are lenten;for vespers and matins,the hymns of triodion are chanted(together with the hymns of the feast),and the prayer of Osios Ephraim be said with great metanoiai.So,there are very clear lenten characters for this day(if falls on weekday).

(a) Divine Liturgy on a weekday (non-Lenten)
(b) Great Vespers with no Lenten hymns (non-Lenten)
(c) Orthros with Great Doxology (non-Lenten)

It's a simple case for it being theoretically "non-Lenten" in a sense (i.e. colors are bright, Lenten prayers are not read, etc.).

What do you mean " when the feast is moved."? Shocked

Last time I looked at the Typikon, if Annunciation falls on Holy Friday or Saturday, it is moved to the feast of Pascha.
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2009, 10:17:13 AM »

Hello everyone,

In the Greek Churchess I have witnessed (both New and Old Calendar) I note that Annunication is handled like any normal feast.

At St Vladimir's when I was there, we had Matins the day of the feast, and then typika plus Vesperal Divine Liturgy at 3 pm (the day of the feast, not the night before).

Is this a Sabbas vs Violakis typikon issue?

We celebrate it in the same way that St. Vladimir's  does, only somewhat later in the day for practical reasons, I suppose.  (This way people can come to the liturgy and feast after work.)  My bishop explained the practice in a sermon.  He said that it is true that it is very confusing.  It is basically a case of attempting to accommodate fasting discipline.  The feast is for the day of the 25th.  However, since (technically speaking at least, if not in reality) we are supposed to fast all day every day during the period of Great Lent until sundown, we schedule the liturgy to be a vesperal liturgy, so that at least liturgically speaking, we are fasting until after sunset.  It makes sense in a weird kind of way, except that of course, it also means that liturgically speaking we are celebrating on the 26th instead of the 25th.  It is kind of like using liturgical practice to be the servant of fasting practice.  
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2009, 10:21:34 AM »

Of course, I've only read it through Violakis' Typikon TME.
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2009, 10:36:17 AM »

Yes,this feast is not a xerophagy day,but you cannot say it's a "non-Lenten day".

Yes, I can, and quite easily.

If this feast falls on a weekday of great lent,the hours are lenten;for vespers and matins,the hymns of triodion are chanted(together with the hymns of the feast),and the prayer of Osios Ephraim be said with great metanoiai.So,there are very clear lenten characters for this day(if falls on weekday).

(a) Divine Liturgy on a weekday (non-Lenten)
(b) Great Vespers with no Lenten hymns (non-Lenten)
(c) Orthros with Great Doxology (non-Lenten)

It's a simple case for it being theoretically "non-Lenten" in a sense (i.e. colors are bright, Lenten prayers are not read, etc.).

What do you mean " when the feast is moved."? Shocked

Last time I looked at the Typikon, if Annunciation falls on Holy Friday or Saturday, it is moved to the feast of Pascha.

What do you mean exactly when you say one day is "non-lenten"? Not be counted in "holy forty"? Not a day of nesteia ?
As I understand,this day has both lenten and festal characters. If you think this day is completely "non-lenten",then why vesperal liturgy(Typikon of St.Sabbas)?
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2009, 10:36:57 AM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:

So, according to an order of Typikon no longer used (and admittedly so by the book that you've quoted) the feast is celebrated after Vespers.  But according to the Typikon in current usage, it is celebrated after Orthros, according to an order that does not include Lenten elements.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2009, 10:40:22 AM »

Yes,this feast is not a xerophagy day,but you cannot say it's a "non-Lenten day".

Yes, I can, and quite easily.

If this feast falls on a weekday of great lent,the hours are lenten;for vespers and matins,the hymns of triodion are chanted(together with the hymns of the feast),and the prayer of Osios Ephraim be said with great metanoiai.So,there are very clear lenten characters for this day(if falls on weekday).

(a) Divine Liturgy on a weekday (non-Lenten)
(b) Great Vespers with no Lenten hymns (non-Lenten)
(c) Orthros with Great Doxology (non-Lenten)

It's a simple case for it being theoretically "non-Lenten" in a sense (i.e. colors are bright, Lenten prayers are not read, etc.).

What do you mean " when the feast is moved."? Shocked

Last time I looked at the Typikon, if Annunciation falls on Holy Friday or Saturday, it is moved to the feast of Pascha.

What do you mean exactly when you say one day is "non-lenten"? Not be counted in "holy forty"? Not a day of nesteia ?
As I understand,this day has both lenten and festal characters. If you think this day is completely "non-lenten",then why vesperal liturgy(Typikon of St.Sabbas)?

I'm not arguing that it isn't counted in the "holy forty."  I'm arguing that in most respects it does not resemble the other weekdays of Lent.  As to the "why vesperal Liturgy" question - obviously the Church was wondering the same thing, because that practice fell out of usage and was then written out of the Typikon (and, as I've learned studying the Typikon, I can assure you that most of the time the Typikon reflects usage already present, rather than starting new practices).
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2009, 10:41:34 AM »

I was just reading about this in the ΣΥΣΤΗΜΑ ΤΥΠΙΚΟΥ by Fr. Constantinos Papagianis (ekdosis 2006). 

There it said that there is an "ancient tradition" and an "athonite" tradition.  I could scan the page and put it up if it's not a copyright issue.  It would be all in greek though...

It would be good if we had all 12 pages of the "what if Annunciation falls on this day" from that book... It's the most interesting case in the entire Typikon (it is the longest listing of any Feast in the book).
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2009, 10:45:06 AM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:

So, according to an order of Typikon no longer used (and admittedly so by the book that you've quoted) the feast is celebrated after Vespers.  But according to the Typikon in current usage, it is celebrated after Orthros, according to an order that does not include Lenten elements.

Come on.....do you think the whole russian church(both MP and ROCOR)and OCA are "inexistence"? I'm not russophil,and my parish is not a "russian one" in any aspect. But what you said  are too much.Treat other local church and tradition as inexistence is contumelious Angry
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« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2009, 01:55:01 PM »

It's not that they just push it back (some Russian parishes have it at 9 am according to some calendars I see) but they Vesperal liturgy is not even done--it is Matins followed by normal liturgy.

Vesperal Liturgy at my OCA parish (sorry if this isn't what you are asking; I've been very ill for the last few days and am just starting to recuperate).


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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2009, 02:06:24 PM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:

So, according to an order of Typikon no longer used (and admittedly so by the book that you've quoted) the feast is celebrated after Vespers.  But according to the Typikon in current usage, it is celebrated after Orthros, according to an order that does not include Lenten elements.

Come on.....do you think the whole russian church(both MP and ROCOR)and OCA are "inexistence"? I'm not russophil,and my parish is not a "russian one" in any aspect. But what you said  are too much.Treat other local church and tradition as inexistence is contumelious Angry

Go ahead and quote where I said they're not existent.  They have their own Typikon and Typikon development, independent of the development and presuppositions of the Greek one quoted by serb1389 and highlighted by you.  We were reading a Greek Typikon, so I followed the course that the Greek Typikon has followed.  If we want to switch gears and talk about the Russian/Slavic Typikon, how it has preserved an ancient course for the feast, then so be it - let's quote it, trace it's ties to the ancient Sabbaitic Typikon, and draw some conclusions.  But don't presume to speak for me, my intention, or anything else that I haven't actually said.
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2009, 02:59:11 PM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:

So, according to an order of Typikon no longer used (and admittedly so by the book that you've quoted) the feast is celebrated after Vespers.  But according to the Typikon in current usage, it is celebrated after Orthros, according to an order that does not include Lenten elements.

Come on.....do you think the whole russian church(both MP and ROCOR)and OCA are "inexistence"? I'm not russophil,and my parish is not a "russian one" in any aspect. But what you said  are too much.Treat other local church and tradition as inexistence is contumelious Angry
Go ahead and quote where I said they're not existent.  They have their own Typikon and Typikon development, independent of the development and presuppositions of the Greek one quoted by serb1389 and highlighted by you.  We were reading a Greek Typikon, so I followed the course that the Greek Typikon has followed.  If we want to switch gears and talk about the Russian/Slavic Typikon, how it has preserved an ancient course for the feast, then so be it - let's quote it, trace it's ties to the ancient Sabbaitic Typikon, and draw some conclusions.  But don't presume to speak for me, my intention, or anything else that I haven't actually said.
In the very beginning of this thread,Fr.Anastasios made a comparison between current greek practise and OCA use,the whole discussion began from that point.What made you think that in this thread we are talking about something "greek"exclusively?
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2009, 03:04:27 PM »



Last time I looked at the Typikon, if Annunciation falls on Holy Friday or Saturday, it is moved to the feast of Pascha.

This is absolutely correct according to the typikon I posted.  In fact, let me scan all of the other pages and hopefully we can do a case study of this stuff.  Very interesting indeed. 
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2009, 03:12:04 PM »

Thankyou serb1389 Cheesy

Here we are:

So, according to an order of Typikon no longer used (and admittedly so by the book that you've quoted) the feast is celebrated after Vespers.  But according to the Typikon in current usage, it is celebrated after Orthros, according to an order that does not include Lenten elements.

Come on.....do you think the whole russian church(both MP and ROCOR)and OCA are "inexistence"? I'm not russophil,and my parish is not a "russian one" in any aspect. But what you said  are too much.Treat other local church and tradition as inexistence is contumelious Angry

Go ahead and quote where I said they're not existent.  They have their own Typikon and Typikon development, independent of the development and presuppositions of the Greek one quoted by serb1389 and highlighted by you.  We were reading a Greek Typikon, so I followed the course that the Greek Typikon has followed.  If we want to switch gears and talk about the Russian/Slavic Typikon, how it has preserved an ancient course for the feast, then so be it - let's quote it, trace it's ties to the ancient Sabbaitic Typikon, and draw some conclusions.  But don't presume to speak for me, my intention, or anything else that I haven't actually said.

If you guys want I have the Typikon in Russian and Serbian, and we can take a look at both.  I would be happy to translate the serbian one, if someone want's to tackle the russian one that would be great.  I'm scanning the full Greek text right now...
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2009, 03:47:15 PM »

I would be happy to translate the serbian one
Bravo!Expecting your translation.隨喜汝之功德! Cheesy
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2009, 04:48:56 PM »



Last time I looked at the Typikon, if Annunciation falls on Holy Friday or Saturday, it is moved to the feast of Pascha.

This is absolutely correct according to the typikon I posted.  In fact, let me scan all of the other pages and hopefully we can do a case study of this stuff.  Very interesting indeed.  

Maybe all the scans should go in the "Content" section of the website.  PM Fr. Anastasios about this.
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2009, 06:09:46 PM »



Last time I looked at the Typikon, if Annunciation falls on Holy Friday or Saturday, it is moved to the feast of Pascha.

This is absolutely correct according to the typikon I posted.  In fact, let me scan all of the other pages and hopefully we can do a case study of this stuff.  Very interesting indeed.  

Maybe all the scans should go in the "Content" section of the website.  PM Fr. Anastasios about this.

I just PM'd him about it.  I have 30+ pages in the Greek text, plus around a dozen pages each for the Serbian and Russian texts, so yah...copyright might become an issue...

Anyway i'm starting to work in the serbian text (i'm gona just get to the point with it, not translate literally or word for word, if you guys don't mind). 
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« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2009, 10:39:05 AM »

Anyway i'm starting to work in the serbian text (i'm gona just get to the point with it, not translate literally or word for word, if you guys don't mind).  

Sounds reasonable.
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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2009, 09:40:30 PM »

Is this a Sabbas vs Violakis typikon issue?

Yes, it is.
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2012, 11:07:09 PM »

Anyway i'm starting to work in the serbian text (i'm gona just get to the point with it, not translate literally or word for word, if you guys don't mind).  

Sounds reasonable.

It's so sad to look back on dropped projects.  This really was a great topic & idea.
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