Have you ever walked out on a Hierarch?

[SolEX01]

Have you ever walked out on a Hierarch during Liturgy, testimonial dinner or other event?

[Rosehip]

What's a testimonial dinner? So far I haven't heard too many Orthodox standing up to give their testimonies like they do in other churches i used to attend. Not that I really miss that either.

[Salpy]

What do you mean by "walked out on?"  Do you mean like to go to the bathroom, or you have to leave early because of something that is going on with you personally?  Or do you mean to get up and walk out in a noticeable and rude way to make a point?  The latter would be inappropriate.

[PeterTheAleut]

Have you ever walked out on a Hierarch during Liturgy, testimonial dinner or other event?

Okay, you've got my curiosity piqued.  Why do you ask this question?

[mike]

When I was 13 my parents sent me to the Orthodox Summer Camp, where I died my hair orange. On the camp we had a meeting with Archbishop Jeremiah of Wrocław and Szczecin and he said that he would have died his beard if everyone of participants had died their hair too

[SolEX01]

What do you mean by "walked out on?"  Do you mean like to go to the bathroom, or you have to leave early because of something that is going on with you personally?  Or do you mean to get up and walk out in a noticeable and rude way to make a point?  The latter would be inappropriate.

I was referring to the latter.   

PtA, the reason I ask is that I walked out of a YAL Convention Grand Banquet in 2003 when I disagreed with something which was said by Archbishop Demetrios.  I was in a miserable mood by that point.

[SolEX01]

What's a testimonial dinner? So far I haven't heard too many Orthodox standing up to give their testimonies like they do in other churches i used to attend. Not that I really miss that either.

A testimonial dinner is a Banquet where the Hierarch is a keynote speaker or one of many speakers.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

No, but once when I was in college I took an excellent class on theology from a professor who was very well-read in Orthodox Literature. In fact, his course rationale was a quotation from St. Symeon the New Theologian. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I may see if I can dig it up if anyone's interested.

Anyway, one class period this professor had to be absent, and he procured a guest speaker who knew nothing of theology. He showed a video of a Dateline investigation on "baptism in the Holy Spirit" and then proceeded to condemn the people at Dateline, as well as all traditional Christians, to hell. I walked out on him.

[Elpidophoros]

Have you ever walked out on a Hierarch during Liturgy, testimonial dinner or other event?

Be far away from Despotes,even when they bring you gifts

[Salpy]

What do you mean by "walked out on?"  Do you mean like to go to the bathroom, or you have to leave early because of something that is going on with you personally?  Or do you mean to get up and walk out in a noticeable and rude way to make a point?  The latter would be inappropriate.

I was referring to the latter.   

PtA, the reason I ask is that I walked out of a YAL Convention Grand Banquet in 2003 when I disagreed with something which was said by Archbishop Demetrios.  I was in a miserable mood by that point.

It can be frustrating when one disagrees with an archbishop or another member of the clergy.  However, we must remember that God is their judge, not us.  It would be better to pray for them.  When you show disrespect, you are showing disrespect not only to the man, but also to his office. 

[Αριστοκλής]

^ Good advice. In my experience in these situations I never squander the chance at gaining my bishops ear by making a 'show retreat'. That would  serve no purpose but gratifying my own ego.

[Innocent]

When the former OCA Met Herman was at our mission I stayed the entire time. I did not for him but his office and it would have accomplished nothing by walking out. I also stayed for the dinner afterwards.

[LizaSymonenko]

When I was in Chicago in February for Bishop Daniel's (UOCA) Enthronement, there was a banquet at the Marriott afterwards.  As was expected, there were a number of speeches. 

The first to speak were those of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA, followed by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, and so forth...the Romanian Bishop Nathaniel, the Greek Bishop Demetrios, etc.

When the Orthodox hierarchs had concluded their speeches, the next one up was the Catholic bishop (and he was followed by other dignitaries.)

Various clergy were peppered amongst the laity at the tables.  The table next to me had a number of Catholic priests.  When the Catholic Bishop was called to the microphone, the priest at the table got up in a huff and yelled out something like "FINALLY!"  He seemed upset that the Catholic bishop was called only after all the Orthodox had concluded.  However, it WAS an Orthodox occasion.  Anyway....this priest, after making a comment, stormed out of the room and slammed the door.

I found it sad.  After all, he missed the speech of his own hierarch.  But, worse yet, were was his attitude of temperance and patience.  He lost it, in front of not only his flock but others, as well.

So, in my opinion....just sit it out.  Show respect.

[mike]

My mother has just told me a story about me and Archbishop Savva of Białystok and Gdańsk (current Metropolitan).

I was present on my mom's meeting with the Hierarch in his office. After we went out I asked her:
- Did I make him scared?
- How?
- I was making him see this all the time - I said and showed my jacket with skull-crossbone-pirate design pattern

I was 4 or 5.

[SDMPNS]

Met.Alexios will be here in May..there are people already talking about showing them how they feel about him not coming here when our parish split.....
My greatgrandmother walked out of St.Nicholas screaming "Bolshie" when a Bishop was speaking...this was in the sad times of the Cuban Missle Crisis..I forget who the Bishop was..my greatgrandmother left Russia during the Revolution and told me several times to never trust a Bishop..feelings were very raw then and concerning very serious issues not just beards,language or pews.

[Orual]

I nearly walked out on Metropolitan PHILIP once, but didn't quite have the nerve, unfortunately.

[HandmaidenofGod]

Met.Alexios will be here in May..there are people already talking about showing them how they feel about him not coming here when our parish split.....
My greatgrandmother walked out of St.Nicholas screaming "Bolshie" when a Bishop was speaking...this was in the sad times of the Cuban Missle Crisis..I forget who the Bishop was..my greatgrandmother left Russia during the Revolution and told me several times to never trust a Bishop..feelings were very raw then and concerning very serious issues not just beards,language or pews.

Oh don't do that! I love +Met. ALEXIOS! (I miss going to Wed. morning Liturgy at the Metropolis Chapel where he served.)

Personal affection aside, the Bishop is a Vicar of Christ. Walking out on him will not accomplish anything. It will not resolve any problems. I don't know the particular circumstances that have led to people in your parish being unhappy with him, and I don't need to know.

You would yield much greater results in trying to speak with him on the side to resolve whatever differances there may be, than to storm out of the room when he is speaking.

+Met. ALEXIOS is a very warm and caring man, and I am sure that he would want to work out any differances that exist in your parish.

[Ortho_cat]

Personal affection aside, the Bishop is a Vicar of Christ.

With all respect, Father Hopko doesn't agree that bishops are vicars of Christ.

"The bishops, priests, and deacons of the Church have no other function or service than to manifest the presence and action of Christ to his people....They are neither vicars of Christ, nor substitutes for Christ nor representatives of Christ."

"The Orthodox Faith: Worship", pg. 46

[SDMPNS]

Met.Alexios will be here in May..there are people already talking about showing them how they feel about him not coming here when our parish split.....
My greatgrandmother walked out of St.Nicholas screaming "Bolshie" when a Bishop was speaking...this was in the sad times of the Cuban Missle Crisis..I forget who the Bishop was..my greatgrandmother left Russia during the Revolution and told me several times to never trust a Bishop..feelings were very raw then and concerning very serious issues not just beards,language or pews.

Oh don't do that! I love +Met. ALEXIOS! (I miss going to Wed. morning Liturgy at the Metropolis Chapel where he served.)

Personal affection aside, the Bishop is a Vicar of Christ. Walking out on him will not accomplish anything. It will not resolve any problems. I don't know the particular circumstances that have led to people in your parish being unhappy with him, and I don't need to know.

You would yield much greater results in trying to speak with him on the side to resolve whatever differances there may be, than to storm out of the room when he is speaking.

+Met. ALEXIOS is a very warm and caring man, and I am sure that he would want to work out any differances that exist in your parish.

What is done is done...Met.Alexios missed his chance to intervene.not returning telephone calls etc etc....He is only coming here because the Archbishop is too..we needed Met.Alexios and he didn't respond...we now have an Antiochian parish and ours in a small city which cannot support two Orthodox parishes..I won't walk out on him..I just won't attend...I know people who want to ask him why he didn't help us...the same thing is happening or happened in Gainesville,Panama City,Naples and Orlando.

[Irish Hermit]

Be far away from Despotes,even when they bring you gifts

"Be polite but not friendly to Bishops; be good to all poor parish priests."
~Kipling

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

A close friend of mine who happens to be Catholic told me this story:

A friend of his approached his Priest to kiss his hand. The Priest said, "You needn't kiss my hand, for I am only a man like you." This person looked at the Priest and said, "I do not kiss your hand to honor you; I kiss your hand because it is the hand that gives me the sacraments."

I love that!

Selam

[SDMPNS]

I have heard that a lot of people are going to be polite to Met.Alexios but they are going to ask him where he was when we needed him.
I have heard he may be retiring soon.He has sick family in Greece.Hopefully we will then get a Bishop who understands America.I will not walk out on him..I won't go.I would like to see the Archbishop but that will be a big show...I won't be able to talk to him and you know every priest in the SE will be here to curry favor.

[NorthernPines]

It can be frustrating when one disagrees with an archbishop or another member of the clergy.  However, we must remember that God is their judge, not us.  It would be better to pray for them.  When you show disrespect, you are showing disrespect not only to the man, but also to his office. 

I used to adhere to that, however over the years I've come to disagree with that position in some cases. I think that the man and the office have to be separated somewhat more than the Church has been doing for a number of centuries. Uniting them into one thing has only created problems in the Church. Now, perhaps "disrespecting" the man by getting up and walking out is not always the most Christian thing to do, however for laymen it might be the only thing we can do if indeed our Bishop says something totally absurd or grievously un-Christian. (like make racist comments) and yes, I know of Bishops who have done that sadly, and had I been there I WOULD have walked out) I mean Christ did say to those who do not receive him to shake the dust off your feet and walk out of the town. (I paraphrase...lol!)

 If I walk out on my Bishop because he says or does something absurd, I don't think I'm automatically disrespecting the office of Bishopric. 

Perhaps, during the Liturgy I would for the most part agree with you. During the Liturgy he holds the office of celebrant and if he tells me (as a tonsured Reader and Altar Server) to read the Psalms so fast that no one can understand them, or if he tells me to do something weird during the Great Entrance (like spin around 3 times) because of his office I should do it, and be obedient even if I disagree. But IMO once the Liturgical prayers are over he's just "another person" and deserves no extra respect than any other person on planet earth does. If a Bishop makes some horrible comment about Jews, or African Americans, or says Christ was a space alien, (and is actually meaning it in a theological sense) in my mind it would be my responsibility as a Christian to stand up and walk out on such nonsense. That's not to say if I see a Bishop, Priest, Nun, Monk, or whatever on the street I don't at some level give them more respect because of the office they hold, because I personally DO do that. However the office is not an excuse for bad bahavior, because in the end the man is the man, if the man says something terrible I personally don't want to listen to it.

The Antiochian Bishop who sexually harassed a woman in a Casino made some comment along the lines, "I'm a Bishop you can do this (arrest) to me." (again I paraphrase) I don't dredge that up to pronounce guilt or judgment on him, but just to show that we Orthodox have in a sense become enablers of bad behavior with our heirarchy. The very fact that any bishop would invoke his office to imply he deserves "special treatment" because he's a Bishop is a sign that we've merged the man and the office into something it was never intended. Again, that's just my opinion.

With all that said, I DO most definitely agree we SHOULD pray for them. And this has been something that has been hard for me to do, but I've forced myself to do it. And in the end, it does make a difference in my outlook on the individual. It's hard to continue to dislike or even hate those whom you pray for. But I still think if a Bishop said something really nuts, it's our responsibility to do something....and in many cases, simply getting up and walking away would be the MOST Christian thing to do. (as opposed to speaking which might lead to an angry outburst)

Now if he just says something we disagree with personally, then yeah...I agree with you. Again, I'm thinking of extreme cases and not just "I disagree with Met. Kallistos Ware about such and such an issue, and so I won't respect him"...and perhaps that's what the OP originally meant. I don't know. In that case I totally agree with you.  But in some serious cases (like what I mentioned) I think it would be our duty to walk away. But maybe I'm wrong.

edited for clarification...i hope...lol!

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